134: Martin Cheung - Stop Marketing Like Its 2015: Why Your Wedding Business Is Stalling

With more than 13 years of experience as a professional wedding photographer, Martin has become a highly respected and recognisable figure within the wedding photography industry. Known not only for his work behind the camera, he has also built a strong reputation for his commitment to supporting, mentoring, and educating fellow photographers at all stages of their careers.

Following his appearance on the Studio Ninja Podcast three years ago, Martin was inspired to create his own platform, leading to the launch of Wedding Photography Unveiled. Through this podcast, he shares an honest and insightful look into the realities of running a successful photography business, going beyond just the creative side of the craft.

Today, Martin is widely regarded for his straightforward, no-nonsense approach, delivering practical, experience-led education that helps wedding photographers confidently navigate and master the business side of their work.

Transcript

Welcome To NinjaCast

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to NinjaCast. A photography podcast of how advanced DDI Ninja, the world's highest rated business management app, built specifically for photographers. Listen and learn as the most successful photographers on the planet share their knowledge to help you transform every element of your photography business. Here's your host, Sally Shaw.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Hello, Martin. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Hey Sally, I'm good, thanks. Yeah, how are things with you?

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Yeah, good, thank you. I feel like I've got an OG back on the podcast. It's lovely.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Yeah, can you believe it's what must be three years ago?

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

I think something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

That even blows my mind that this podcast has existed for that amount of time, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Oh, it's been going a lot longer than that. Because I I I've been a listener for way longer than that.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

It's bombers.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

And yeah, I I have a big thank you to make to you, actually. Um, yeah, because three years ago when I came on your podcast, it was the very, very first podcast I'd ever done. And I remember I was like super nervous, and uh I enjoyed it so much that I ended up creating my own podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Yeah, now your podcast is killing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Thank you. But yeah, I was like, I really enjoyed that. So yeah, I went and uh did one myself. So it's all down to you, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Oh, not to say you you did a fantastic job as being the interviewee last time. So, and you're an even better host. I listen to your podcast all the time, so we can swap.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I've learned everything I know from you.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Oh so bring me up to date. How's things been? What have you been up to?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Things have been good. Um, like I said, I uh I've been doing the podcast, which has been really mu a lot of fun. Um, you know, and it just goes to show how supportive the community is. Everybody's overwhelmingly been very supportive. Um, and yeah, I've done a even done a couple of workshops since then, uh hosted a couple of workshops which have been challenging, but also a lot of fun. Yeah, and um, yeah, bookings are going well as well. Still doing you know, silly numbers of weddings each year. Um, I found my happy place and you know, bookings have been steady. Um, but um yeah, so nothing's changed from that point of view, really.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Amazing. And how did you find kind of setting up the podcast, getting all that established? And the same with your workshops, kind of I can imagine running a workshop for the first time is quite daunting to make sure that all your ducks in a row, and you know, especially in an industry that you're already so established in and so well known in, um, that starting to do kind of a podcast or a workshop can feel quite daunting, can't it?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, the podcast itself wasn't too hard to set up, although I learned a lot about audio very, very quickly. Um, it's not as simple as you think, and editing it and making sure the levels are right. I was like, oh my god, this is actually a lot of work. I've since tried to do a few video ones, and that's like even worse. I'm like, oh my god, this is like so stressful. So sometimes I just default back to to audio. But the workshops has been also a lot of learning. I think the first one I did was with my friend Megan, and we did like one day business, one day style shoot. And because I thought at the time people wouldn't be interested unless there was a style shoot. In in actual fact, it was the opposite. The feedback from people was we didn't actually weren't actually that fussed about the style shoot. So the second one I did, I just focused just purely on the business side, and that was so much easier because I didn't have to worry about models, dresses, getting things dirty, the weather. It was just like so much easier. I just hired a nice room, got everyone sat down. It was like, oh, so much easier to do. Yeah, but yeah, it's been fun, it's been fun.

How The Wedding Market Shifted

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Good, good, good, good. So we're gonna talk today about a few different points, I think, aren't we? We're we've got a whole list that we've put together. Um, let's start with um how the market shifted. I feel like even just since we last spoke and we last had a podcast together, kind of like you say, three years ago, so much has changed. But you know, going back to when you and I first started out in the industry kind of 10, 15 years ago, God, how much has changed in that time. So, you know, where where are you at with the changes? What are you doing to kind of combat these changes? What have you recognised?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Oh, it's I think it's the market's changed so much. It really has since we started. And me and you've been in the industry for a similar amount of time. And I think the old adage that you know our clients don't get older, but we do, is the the bottom line, really. So, like if you think must be like 12, 13 years ago, and things have changed so much, a whole new generation of people are sort of coming through, getting married now. You know, it nowadays it's like late millennials, Gen Zs who are getting married, and they have completely different attitude to previous generations. And I think the easiest thing to say is look, you know, if you if you ask my mum who the best band in the world was, she'd say the Beatles.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

And I was like, No. When I I remembered as a teenager, I was like, absolutely not, absolutely no way. And I and this is embarrassing, but I remember as a teenager, I said to my mum, this new band here, I was watching Top of the Pops, and I said to my mum, this band here, they're the new Beatles, and it was Bros. And you probably like, who's Bros? But yeah, I was like, but it goes to show that styles change, trends change, yeah, and people's perception of what's good is changed. Yeah, and and and I and I truly believe that that is a big factor of what's happened in the market. It's not that I know and cost of living, I think, has had a big play um on the reason why things are different as well. That that is very true, and also low barriers to entry now. If you think now things are so much easier than they ever were when we started, there was no education out there, very, very few. My first wedding I shot with a camera that if I nudged it up to ISO 800, I was like, oh my god, I'm worried now. And now, first dance, I'm like, I'll start at ISO 3200, yeah, that'll do. Um, and I don't think about it, but yeah, I think those are other reasons, but I do think that Gen Zs think very, very differently. Um, so yeah, I I've learned to sort of adapt to that and sort of think, what do I need to do to attract the couples that and who are getting married now rather than what we did back 10 years ago? 10 years ago it's dead easy. We just took some photos, put them on Facebook, and and that was that, weren't it? Yeah, that was it, that was marketing.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Oh, has hasn't you known the the effort that you have to put into getting those inquiries now changed drastically in the last 10 years?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Massively, massively. I remember that those days were literally you'd go, you'd you'd see people post on on Facebook, yeah, I I've shot a wedding, I went online, posted on my Facebook page, and I've had four inquiries. That was it. It was simple, wasn't it? Yeah, and then and then it was and now I have to tag the couple, and then I've had four inquiries. I put 10 pounds on Facebook ads and I got four inquiries, and it was just like that, yeah, it was so bring it back, please. Yeah, I know I'd love to, wouldn't I? And now you've got to like dance on TikTok and stuff you won't catch me doing that one day, one day, Sally.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Have you got a TikTok account, Martin?

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Oh god, yes. So I've got a TikTok account, but I love using TikTok as a user. I hate using it as a creator. Yeah, I am I'm the wrong generation. I'm like, oh no, uh, but I do like scrolling. We are that that's the bottom line, isn't it? That is the bottom line, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

We're getting too old for it.

Album Trends And Audience Research

SPEAKER_01 7:50

So yeah, I think nowadays people need to start thinking about the modern couple who are getting married, not the couples who we think um, you know, uh are getting married. And I think the the the the key thing is nowadays is well, I've got a good example actually. Um, like a few weeks ago, my my second photographer is actually 25 years old, she's lovely, she's called Mel, um, and she's engaged herself, so she's very much sort of that that ideal age group. And we were at a wedding fair together, and she was just flicking through my albums, and she was like, I'd never buy one of these albums. And I was like, What? I really like these albums. She's like too traditional, and it was like someone stabbed me in the heart. I was like, Oh god, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 8:38

So she showed me what she would see your target market, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Yeah, exactly. So she showed me what she would like, um, which is more like a coffee table album that you put on your coffee table as the name suggests. So I started doing a bit of a market research. So I asked around different people, I asked my son, who's also 25, said, Don't send it to your female friends, see what they think. And the overwhelming reply came back, we like the coffee table album. We don't like the traditional album, as they say. And I asked at a wedding fair last month, um, you know, asked every couple who came along, it was great icebreaker, by the way. Um, you know, what do you think? Which do you prefer? And the amount of couples, generally brides, in fairness, the blokes don't tend to care, but the amount of brides who just literally pointed it at the coffee table and was like, but you've not even seen this album, like, no, we like that one. Uh was just insane to me. And the point is, is that for me, I was like, I like this album, not knowing that actually a lot of couples, and it's not nothing uh we ever talk about is 100%, you know, it's not a binary choice. There were some couples who liked the old album, but the majority were like, no, we like that one, and you know, at the end of the day, you've got to sell what people want, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 9:50

Yeah, 100%. It's it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because especially because we've been almost accustomed that you know, that's that's a wedding album, you know, from a supplier perspective. You know, it's only it's only more recently, I feel like, that you know, the likes of m Photo Foliography, they've started diversifying into like the coffee album style or like the something you can just kind of grab off the shelf that's you know, this thin and and you know it's it's more accessible than that big chunky 10 by 10, you know, which like again we're showing our age. I love a big chunky album. Me too. Me too. And that yeah, that would blow my brain to have to just do coffee alb coffee books.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah, and and and you're exactly right. That that is the whole thing where you know I personally like that, but my couples don't. And the the analogy I can think of is I like cheesecake, but if I go fishing, I've got to use fish bait. I can't put a lump of cheesecake on the end of the rod and expect to catch fish. Yeah, it's a stupid analogy, but it for me it was like, oh my god, that's true. Um, you know, I've got to use what works for my audience.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

And yeah, so you've completely renovated your wedding open day.

Adding Editorial Without Selling Out

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah, it's not just yeah, but it's not just albums, it's it's also the style as well. You know, um nowadays everybody talks about editorial, editorial, editorial, and and people love it, people hate it, but overwhelmingly, couples seem to love it, and it's become the default. Uh this year I've noticed so many posts on Facebook where couples are going, This is the style I want, and it's almost always editorial. And the the old well, I'll say old, documentary, natural, candid, whatever you want to call it, the stuff that we've done for the last 10-12 years that's become traditional now. Yeah, you know what I mean? So if you're a documentary photographer who thrives on capturing the real moments, you're that old traditional photographer in the back now, and the and the newer generation of the whole blurry photo, direct flash in their face, you know, that's what you know, as photographers, we're like, oh my god, no, could never do that. But that's what couples want, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

So are you pivoting? Are you are you kind of steering towards including that style?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

And so that this is a funny story. Um, last year I noticed a big drop-off. So last year, January to March, bookings were fine, and then from March onwards, things kind of fell off a cliff, and it's never happened to me before. So I kind of did do a lot of research as to what could be causing it, and I did some different testing and stuff. And eventually I thought, you know, I'm gonna have to at one point I did consider going all in on editorial, but I just can't do it. I just like there's something inside of me that's going, no, don't do it, you'll be a sellout. Um, and at the same time, I think my wife made a very good point. If I did that, then I would just become a poor man's editorial photographer, a poor man's Zach and Grace, you know, they do it incredibly well. So I just thought I'll take elements from it and merge it into my style. So I've taken some of the stuff from it, dropped the stuff that I don't like, and ever since then, things have been really good. You know, things picked up sharply since I implemented those changes, so which is which I was really grateful for because there was a a bit of time, first time in like over a decade, I was like sweating for a few months, like, what's happened? What's happened? Everything's gone quiet.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Yeah, it's a scary place to be, isn't it? And I think you know, everybody in our industry has that. Um, and it's just about how you tackle it, isn't it? And how you, you know, like you said, you know, you sat there, you did the research, you tried to work out what the common denominator could be.

Why Speed Now Wins Bookings

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, yeah. And and often it's not just the work as well. Um, you know, I think the work is only a small portion of how clients see us. Because at the end of the day, a lot of couples can't really see a big difference between photographer A and photographer B. You know, they know they like, you know, they they like, let's say they say, Oh, we like editorial style. Put two editorial photographers in front of them, they can't really tell the difference. You know, they're like, well, Bob's just as good as Sam. Um, so but there's lots of other stuff, I think, nowadays, especially with you know, we're living in uh a world where we ev we get everything instantly, don't we? Excuse me. So, you know, everything's Amazon Prime, Uber Eats, I can get stuff delivered to my door in 20 minutes, you know. And I think as a result, people are expecting, like it or not, faster responses from their suppliers. Yeah, you know, the old days of waiting a couple of days to get back to someone, I think those are gone. You're gonna be much quicker on it because there's simply a lot more competition, you know. I don't have have you ever had it where you get an inquiry and then like the next day they email you back and go, we've booked someone now.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I I've had uh yeah, I've had one this year. I was like, what? You want the inquiry just?

SPEAKER_03 14:54

I just had one recently actually that I I'd I sat there for a good few minutes afterwards and I just thought I I can't understand where I went wrong here. I received an inquiry for for argument's sake, say it came through at one o'clock. I responded within seven minutes.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I looked by seven minutes, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Everything was in that bad boy. Seven minutes later I sent that email. And later that night I got an email saying it was almost worded as if I hadn't got back to them quick enough. That's what blew my mind.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Really?

SPEAKER_03 15:39

I very nearly emailed them back and was like, I don't know if you're mistaken with somebody else, because I responded to you within seven minutes of your inquiry coming through. But it was, I can't remember what they said word for word, but it was something along the lines of you know, we've um we've gone once we've we've decided to go with a photographer that came back to us a bit quicker.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Well, if you're only done six minutes, Sally.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Honestly, you can imagine my dismay when I sat there and I was like, Excuse me? Yeah, seven minutes wasn't quick enough for them. Oh, while whilst we're on it, I was just gonna say, like, those those like again, you know, we reason with ourselves, don't we? And I sat there and went, that's another couple for me. Like I've got a four-year-old at home, I I can't be available every second of every minute of every day to you know be at my my couple's back and call. I just can't be. Um so if if seven minutes wasn't quick enough for them, I'm kind of glad I didn't get the book in.

Studio Ninja Notifications And Lead Capture

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah. No, that's that's crazy. But yeah, I was just gonna say, as an uh whilst you're talking about quick responses and stuff, one thing I have really liked is the new notifications in Studio Ninja. I'm not and you've not paid me to say that. And I was like, oh, finally I'm getting notifications, so I don't have to keep an eye on my emails because I get so much spam in my emails that I only check that every so often. So now it's like boom, I've got a lead. Oh, yeah, yeah, I can jump on it.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

I must say I did a little happy dance when I logged into Man Ninja one day and saw that that was there. And then even I knew it was coming. That's the sad thing about it, is I knew it was in production anywhere it was up to, anywhere when it was being launched. And I still opened my studio ninja. It might have been the day it was launched, I'm not sure, it might have been a day later. And I opened it, saw that little bell, and was like, thank the Lord, that is amazing. And I'd done a um I'd done a wedding open day show uh a couple of weeks ago, and I used a ninja form on my website to be able to capture inquiries. And I was shell-shocked at how quickly those notifications were coming in. So I think I got it was a good day. I think I got about 10 leads from this um open day. And by the time they'd they'd hit submit on the inquiry form, my phone was already vibrating to say new lead. It was nice.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

I love it.

AI Delivery Times And Content Creators

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah, nice, yeah, brilliant. Yeah, so um what were we talking about now? If we've all went off a bit of a tangent. I know we've got to be. Yeah, so everybody, everybody wants things quickly, yeah. And yeah, so I think nowadays, especially, and I know we went off on this tangent last time about AI, but with now with AI, you know, I don't think again, the old days of where we'd take forever to sort of deliver galleries.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

I think those days need to go as well. I feel like I almost I almost feel like that never happened, that we were never in that. I can't I can't ever remember the glory days.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah, like we thought it were hard.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

It was so long ago and things are so different now that I almost feel like I don't rem I don't physically remember sitting there and culling and editing a gallery tiny bit by tiny bit.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Um I think I've always done it fairly quickly. So I think for me, adapting wasn't a big deal because now it's just a little bit quicker, but I was always pretty quick. But I I do think now with competition being what it is, if if you're still running it like if you're still still telling couples, oh, it's eight to twelve weeks, I think that is something which as a couple I'd be put off with. You know, if I if I if I um am a modern Gen Z couple, I don't really want to wait eight to twelve weeks, you know. I can get a car delivered. Yeah, I can get a car delivered from China in less time than that. Do you know what I mean? Why why is it taking you 12 weeks to edit some photos? And and I think that is also why I I honestly believe that's why we've got content creators now, because we as collectively, as photographers and videographers, created that gap. Yeah, you know, we were we were making couples wait eight to 12 weeks for the photos and they wanted to see something the next day. So along comes someone with a phone and goes, I'll do that for you. 200 quid, deliver you the next day, and they're like, brilliant. And now we're like, oh my god, there's content creators everywhere. And I think had we have as an industry been quicker and delivered more of us delivered previews the next day, clips of videos the next day. I think couples would be like, I'm not paying extra few hundred quid just for phone footage when I'm getting stuff off my photographer from videographer the next day. Yeah, yeah. So but you can't put the genie back in the bottle, yeah. Although interestingly, I had a um dinner with um a friend who does a bit of content creation, and she was saying actually in some of the content creation groups, a lot of content creators are now starting to uh buy cameras and start looking into being photographers. So I was like, oh my god, that's not good news for us.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

But it's the same, right? In in obviously, we we sit there with you know, maybe a decade of experience to then go, you know, there's there's some photographers that are very much, you know, going, oh well, I'll add content creation in, you know, I'm I'm there photographing the day. It's it's like an easy add-on for us. Um it's it's vice versa, isn't it? You know, the content creators are are there all day, they want to up their fee, they want to, you know, add that extra service, they want to predominantly be the person with direction and to be able to, you know, direct the couple on the day, get the the content that they want, then yeah, I could definitely see that come in for sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And uh I I think as time goes on, uh I've been saying for a long time now that the three industries, so photography, videography, and I didn't see content creation coming on, but now it's here, they'll sort of converge and become sort of like all one thing. So I do think in years to come we'll all be doing a bit of everything. We'll be delivering clips of videos, we'll be delivering photos, and yeah, you know, that's that's just gonna be the way it is.

Future Proofing And Exit Strategy Thinking

SPEAKER_03 21:48

So, how are you planning for the future then? If that's if that's where you think the end game is gonna be for our industry, what's your plan as a as a business owner, as a wedding photographer to kind of future proof yourself?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Well, I think this is where I have a little bit of a I want to say advantage, but it's really not. Um at the age I'm at, I'm starting to think, what's my exit strategy going to look like? You know, so I don't have another 20 years in this industry because I want to be retired before then. So at that point, my mindset's more, what other businesses can I create? Because I don't want to work for someone again. After being self-employed and being able to do what I want when I want, I don't really want to go back to yes, boss. So, you know, my exit strategy over the next like five, six years is to find something else to slowly sort of transition on that. So I've started doing a bit of website, website hosting, that sort of stuff. And it and it's doing quite well, but it's just slowly growing in the background. Um, but yeah, if I was if I was a a younger wedding photographer and I am looking at the next 20 years, I would be looking at the trends, um, thinking, how do I adapt to that? Because I have seen, interestingly, I have seen some photographers go all in. And if you look at their website now, compared to like five years ago, like five years ago, they were like, I am a documentary wedding photographer, da da da. And then you look at their website today, it's like I'm an editorial wedding photographer, and they've sort of like switched, gone all in, and it's like mine is business, I'm gonna sell what people want. So if they want me to be editorial, I'll be editorial. And I think there's a lot to be said about that.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 23:28

You can you can die on that hill of this is my style, but and and that's fine if you you can find enough couples, you know.

Business Skills Beat Pure Creativity

SPEAKER_03 23:35

That's it, isn't it? If you get in the bookings, this is your style. If you're not getting the bookings and you want to stay in the business, exactly, then has to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

You've got to make that decision, and and I think it's clear nowadays that the business side is way more important than the photography side.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Yeah, hasn't that been a switch as well? Like, you know, it I feel like when we started out, it was, you know, your skills with the camera, how good your editing was, and all any kind of education that did start to emerge was all, you know, how to use your camera, how to shoot better, how to edit better, how to work in Photoshop. It was all, you know, business education, how to actually run a business successfully, efficiently, has been a whole new thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yeah, that wasn't even a thing, was it? And I think a lot of that is because a lot of us start this business because we like photography.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Yeah, we didn't we didn't plan on running a business.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

No, exactly. So there's a lot of creatives running a business rather than business people running a creative business. Yeah. And I think that is a huge, huge differentiator. Now, if you look at, I think the people who do the best at I mean, obviously, if you can have both, if you can be creative and run a smart business, then you're gonna smash it. But if you've got to do one or the other, then I think the people who generally focus on the business more are better than the creative only. But I hate talking about money, I don't like running a business. I think that is gonna be incredibly hard. Uh if it's not already hard, it's gonna be incredibly hard as as time goes on, I think.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

Yeah, for sure, definitely. I mean, I love the place that we've got to in the industry in terms of education. Like how how we didn't have this 10 years ago, I don't know. And how this has come about in 10 years, I'm so grateful for. I think it's an amazing part of our industry now that we there is so much education, there are so many people stepping into mentorship, education, workshops, you know, in-person shadowing days, whatever it may be. Like our industry was desperate for that.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Yeah, without a doubt, when we started, it was very much you can do a bit of flash training, and that was about your lot. Yeah, you know what I mean? And nowadays you can get any education you want. Do you want to know how to do groups? Do you want to do off-camera flash? Do you want to do business? Do you want an education about workflow, mindset, whatever it is, there's someone out there now who's gonna go, yeah, I can teach you that. And I think that's amazing. But at the same time, like we said at right at the start, it's lowered barriers to entry. Yeah, so competition, we always thought the industry was saturated, didn't we? But I think you know, it ev every year the industry seems to be going, hold my beer, and throw throw another thousand wedding photographers into the mix.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Yeah, we evolved, don't we? We we keep growing.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Um yeah, but I think if you keep to the basics and keep focusing on what's important, you can still do really well in this industry, I think. I truly think so. But I think it's all about adapting to the market rather than standing still where you are and thinking, well, there's no bookings out there. There are. You just have to fight a little bit harder and look at what that person wants, not what we we want to sell them.

One Rule To Stay Booked

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Yeah, for sure. I couldn't agree more. Well, what a blast this has been, Martin. I've absolutely loved every second of catching up again. Thank you so much for coming to join me once again and coming for a good old Natter. Um as our as our usual sign-off is with this podcast, if you can give me one piece of advice, and I'm hoping that piece of advice might have changed since we last spoke three years ago. Um, one piece of advice that makes the most difference in your business or your life that our listeners can take away with today.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Uh I think it's already already that. But you know, focus on what people want, not what you want to sell them.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Yeah. Love that. That's perfect. And if our listeners want to um come and follow you, drop you a DM to let them let you know that they've listened today, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yeah, they can find me on Instagram at Martin C Photography. Uh, and if you want to listen to my podcast, it's uh Wedding Photography Unveiled. And that's also got an Instagram page which is WP Unveiled. But yeah, feel free to DM me.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Amazing. Thank you so much. I will catch you very, very soon.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Thanks, Martin. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

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