Are you Ready to Roll

#12 DR.NANCY PANZA AKA THE COP WHISPERER

September 17, 2020 Paul Marrick/Jesse Clay Season 1 Episode 12
Are you Ready to Roll
#12 DR.NANCY PANZA AKA THE COP WHISPERER
Chapters
Are you Ready to Roll
#12 DR.NANCY PANZA AKA THE COP WHISPERER
Sep 17, 2020 Season 1 Episode 12
Paul Marrick/Jesse Clay

We have a great show for you today. Allow us to introduce The Cop Whisperer. We first heard Dr. Panza on the Joe Rogan show and felt strongly she needed to be heard again ,so stand by.
 Dr. Panza completed her Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, with a concentration in Psychology and Law, at the University of Alabama in 2004. She spent four years working as an Assistant Professor in the Psychology Department at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City before coming to CSUF. Her clinical and research interests include criminal forensic assessment (i.e., competence to stand trial and waive Miranda rights, insanity defense, risk assessment, and capital sentencing) and police psychology (i.e., evaluation, treatment, and training of law enforcement officers). Dr. Panza has worked within county, state, and federal facilities providing clinical and forensic services for juvenile and adult offenders and has provided services for police departments in New York City, Alabama, and Southern California.




Show Notes Transcript

We have a great show for you today. Allow us to introduce The Cop Whisperer. We first heard Dr. Panza on the Joe Rogan show and felt strongly she needed to be heard again ,so stand by.
 Dr. Panza completed her Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, with a concentration in Psychology and Law, at the University of Alabama in 2004. She spent four years working as an Assistant Professor in the Psychology Department at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City before coming to CSUF. Her clinical and research interests include criminal forensic assessment (i.e., competence to stand trial and waive Miranda rights, insanity defense, risk assessment, and capital sentencing) and police psychology (i.e., evaluation, treatment, and training of law enforcement officers). Dr. Panza has worked within county, state, and federal facilities providing clinical and forensic services for juvenile and adult offenders and has provided services for police departments in New York City, Alabama, and Southern California.




Retired law enforcement, officer security, expert and award winning storyteller. Paul Merrick, along with his cohost, Jesse Clay, former Navy seal, and four time heavyweight committee, world champion together. We'll discuss the broad array of current events using their unique backgrounds to further dissect each story. The only question you have to ask yourself is, are you ready to roll? I don't know, but I've been told that these two guys are really old. I hear their views are very bold, but they believe the truth will hold. So sit right back and enjoy the show because these two guys are ready to roll sound off wound to sound off three, four sound off long two, three, four. Let's roll. Jesse you ready to roll? That's roll ladies and gentlemen and everybody else meaning our friends. we have a really special guest today and we are honored to have our honor show. dr. Nancy Penza is a PhD in clinical psychology. And you, I correct. You, actually teach at uni, UC Fulton. Correct? CSU Cal state Fullerton. I'm sorry. See that's well, that's why she's a doctor and I'm not sure you actually remember. Anyway. she has a long lineage. This is this lady. I have to tell you why we, we were lucky enough to get her on. Was we heard on another podcast and. When I was listening to her, I realized that not only is it, she highly educated, but she has experienced because some of the things she said led me to believe without a doubt, she knows exactly what's going on with cops. There's no question. She just hit these key points, which we'll talk about a little bit. And I just got, we got to get a, get the slate, you know, and I think that a lot of good can come out of listening to somebody like her. Yeah, that's fine. God gave you two ears and one mouth. So stop talking. I know how you doing. I'm doing very well. Thanks for having me guys. I appreciate it. We were honored to have you on the show. Real quick, just maybe because I probably didn't do as good of a job. Can you just give us a little bit more about your background and what you do? Yeah, sure. I think you did a great job. So yes, I am a professor in the psychology department at Cal state Fullerton. So I've been there for. Oh a lot of years now. I think I'm in 12 or 13 now. And then yeah, before that, I spent four years in New York city, in the psychology department at John Jay college of criminal justice, which is known as the cop college, of New York. It actually started out as. Just a university for, police and it has since expanded, but, yeah, so my background, I am a clinical psychologist. So, you know, by virtue I'm trained to diagnose and treat mental illness. But for me, my training has been more specific in forensic and police psychology. So earlier in my career, I'd probably focus more heavily on the forensic side, doing evaluations for lawyers and the courts and all of that. So working in mental hospitals and prisons on mental health units and all that fun stuff. But my later years of my career, I've shifted and I'm almost completely, Shifted over into the world of police psychology, which is something I've done all along the way. but yeah, I spend my time now when I'm not teaching and working with my students, taking care of cops, my, my goal. For my career is to do everything that I can and to keep police officers healthy, to help them manage the intense and overwhelming demands of their jobs and, you know, to do what I can to support them so that they are out there healthy and taking care of us. Yeah. And, and not having troubles on the job when they have to do that. So pretty much those wings we see behind you are actually attached. That sounds like an angel to me, for a cop. I was like an angel to me. Yeah. I'm telling you right now. I, so a couple of things that I had heard you talk about before that really keyed on with me was one. You talked about how there's, a bad habit. I'll, I'll put it that way. You probably have a better term. For cops who maybe work too much. And I, I resemble that remark. I remember working over time sometimes for free, just. To go out and have more officers on the street when it was really busy because I, you know, I got to help my partners and I was single at time. So it wasn't like I had a wife to go home to or anything like that. But even in that regard, now that I look back on it, that probably wasn't the healthiest thing to do because it just reminded me that she wears the whole world is sick. When instead it's probably a very small percentage of the population. And you forget that when you, when you do that all day long, Yeah. There's well that is one of the things. Yeah. What I say is that, you know, picking up all those overtime shifts, even though the money is great. And in some cases, people really go to depends strongly on it. it's, it's not always the healthiest of choices for, well, for two main reasons. One I've talked about and is one of. My favorite things to talk about and, you know, with an audience police officers listening, and that's the kind of the biological state that your body goes through when you're on the job. I think it's one of the most important thing for police officers to learn, because it really is heavily edited in burnout and in staying both physically and psychologically healthy. so that's one side of it. And I'm happy to talk about that. If, if you guys want me to, and the other side is. You know, when you're on the job and you get no breaks, then you do start to see the world through different eyes. And it does seem like the whole world is a mess and everybody's out to get you, or everybody's a bad guy or in drama or crisis. And you forget that there is good in the world. And so, yeah, work, work, work, and no typical life activities or nonstop life activities. It really starts to cloud your vision and change. You know who you are and how you function as a person. W what are those? So for a lot of our listeners who are still active, what are some of the physical aspects of what you're talking about? What, what can they expect, or maybe what they're feeling now. So they should consider, you know, Yeah, my favorite resource for this. and I, I, I say this in every training that I do cause I, I borrow his approach to explaining it because he did such a beautiful job is, drawing from Kevin Gilmartin's book. He's a, a brilliant guy and wrote a fantastic book called emotional survival for law enforcement. Evan Gilt, Kevin, who was that? Neil Martin. G I L M a R T I N. So Kevin Gilmartin, PhD, brilliant guy wrote this book a good while ago. It's been out. It's not brand new. It's been around for awhile, but there's something about the presentation the way he explains it. Isn't. Such concrete, simple terms. It's so well presented. so I, I borrow from, from his explanation and essentially what, what he explained in such a beautiful way was that, you know, life, the way we live, he calls it. We live between the lines. There's a normal range of functioning. Right. So in our daily life, we're kind of going about in a, in a typical state of arousal. And I mean, like, you know, nervous system arousal. So our brain is functioning as it's supposed to be when you're a cop and you're on duty, you go okay, above the lines, above the normal state of functioning, because you have to be in a state of hypervigilance, right? Your nervous system kicks in to, to hire a gear because you gotta be alert. You gotta be looking, you gotta be functioning. You need to be on. So it costs our nervous system. Some, some cash to stay in that hypervigilant state. Your body is not meant to stay in that on state for long periods. So what happens when you are off duty is you kind of dropped down below the lines you dip beneath. Our, our normal range of, you know, nervous system arousal. So when cops go home after a long shift, especially if it's been a particularly intense shift, you dip below and you feel kind of crappy, you feel tired. You might feel a little bit detached. some people want to be alone and kind of isolate, just, you know, don't really have the energy to get up and go and do stuff. don't want to really engage with, you know, spouse or kids, just kinda in that slumpy kind of downstate. And that's because your nervous system has been on, you know, in high gear all day. This gets even more accelerated if you have a really intense incident on the job. So then you're, you know, getting adrenaline spikes and, and that dip down below will be even deeper. So we go through this kind of highs and lows when you're on the job, off the job. And what normal people are doing is they're a cruise. And along in the normal zone, you know, their life, their daily lives and jobs, don't. Don't involve having to be alert and wondering if, you know, the next person you pull over is going to shoot you or whatever. and so you get these highs and lows, highs, and lows. Now the body is made to recover from that. Right. But it needs to be yeah, 24 hours to get back to, to stop going, you know, from the high, extreme high to the low it'll come back to normal, but you need about 24 hours. But in the real world, normally you have another shift starting. So then what happens is you go high to low and then back up to high and then back down to low. And you, I get these ups and downs and you're completely missing the normal range. Now you add overtime shifts that, and you are constantly going highs and lows, and then that general as to how you function in your life. So then being at work feels good. Because you've got the highs you're on guard. You're, you're keyed up. You're tuned in you're on, on, on I'm ready. And then home life starts to feel crappy. Cause that's when you're tired, that's when your body biologically is recovering. And so people start to detach over time. That home feels like a negative place to be. Maybe even feel misunderstood. And so again, that's when the overtime shifts start becoming more and more frequent. And so you can see how this pattern kicks in and it can create an unhealthy dynamic where work is good. Home is bad, and they're putting themselves constantly in this, you know, nervous system, overdrive state. When would they really need is time to recover from it? Is that the only way? Is there anything, I mean, like you're saying the reality is you go from one step to the other and you're right back in it again, besides that 24 hour break, is there anything else people can do to at least mitigate it? Absolutely. Yes. There are things you can do because you know, we can't get around the, the shift schedule that we're given. Right. You can't say, well, I need 24 hours in between all of my work. Yeah. It doesn't work that way. So what can we do to offset? I mean, that would be great. The doc said, I have to do this, you know? Yeah. That says, so I can't come in today, maybe tomorrow. No. So the things that, that are best, if you can't have those giant breaks between which most of us can't is that you really have to protect your time off. That's where the overtime recommendation is. Be very selective, you know, work your overtime when you need to. Cause Lord knows that can supplement a salary tremendously. And that's why most cops do it because it really does make a difference. But so how can you turn that away? But you know what protect that work the overtime is when you're, you know, saving for that vacation or whatever it is your financial goal is, but then take those times when you were not on and when you don't need to, and, and. And, you know, really protect your time off set goals so that you have time where you are not working, where you are purposefully, not even being around cops, but you are being social with non-police people with your family, with your friends, your non-covered friends, so that you can see and break free from that cycle. And from that world. And remember that, Oh yeah, like life looks. It looks normal out here. it's, it's not all nine 11 calls and bad guys and bad girls. you know, it's, it's, there's, there's normalness out here and, and getting out and being part of that and breaking free can re the other things also are, you know, physical fitness. There's nothing better to get the body and the brain back in shape, then doing some, you know, whatever it is that you love doing for fitness, whether, you know, for me, I'm a runner, so I'm going to go get my shoes on and pound the pavement and, you know, get a good rush. yeah, you know, to get my brain back on track when I've been under a lot of stress and the same goes for police. So practice your physical fitness, your nutrition, all those. Basic, you know, physical, important things, but also protect your time and have your time off and have multiple roles goals in your life. You know, for sure people who have young kids, it's easy, engage with your kids and be the parent that you, that you need to be because kids will bring us right back down to us. Silly, not overly serious place. But when you don't, you know, find other things you can do that bring positivity, volunteer someplace with, you know, with young people, do something that brings you around the good in life so that you have that to counterbalance all the negativity that you see, you know, out and about. So yeah. Take control of your personal life and protect that, protect it like it's life or death. Cause, cause it can be. Okay, you made me think now I hope I'm not going out of bouncer too much, but I see kind of a correlation, not just with the cops, but if, if you're who literally gets on the news all day long and takes it as gospel, it looks to some people like the world's coming to an end. So is that, do those same effects take place for just not, I mean, non cops, just people who are in the bulging in this type of negative. information, I guess. Oh gosh. Yeah. I mean, you know, to a different degree, obviously, you know, when, when your livelihood involves a sense of danger, it, you know, the stakes are high, but, but yeah. Information overload and negativity, overload of any type is harmful to our psyche, you know, and the media, I mean, don't. Don't get me started. The mainstream media is just a wealth of, I'm going to get you to start. I wasn't trying to like bait you or anything, but I just started. Yeah. And I usually can't keep quiet on my, my really negative impressions of the media. I can't stand it. I really avoid it like the plague and, and you're right. The people who are just. You know, when you're tuned in 24 seven, and these days we can be between television news, internet news, the constant stream on our devices and gadgets that we have with us. And we're staring into, you know, ungodly amounts of hours every day. It is easy to get sucked in. And to just be inundated with the negativity. In fact, last week, at one point I came down early in the morning as I was going to make my cup of coffee. And, I live in California. So we've got wildfires to add on to, you know, you're not the only one. No, no, no, not the only one, but I remember thinking, Oh my gosh, between the exhaustion from this pandemic mass. Too political mania to my heart aching for all the worlds of, you know, everything that's going on out there on the streets right now. And the social unrest and my law enforcement officers and I hit was still processing what had happened to our LAPD detectives out here. And then I looked up and was hearing them talk about the fires. And I just turned around and walked out of the room. And I said, I just cannot. I cannot listen to this today. I can't take any more negative information. I'm starting to just feel so weighted down by it. And, you know, I tune out. I will not look at the news. I will not tune in because sometimes we just have to break away and for the positivity and I go right back. So the things that make me feel good and lift me up and I highly recommend it for all of my law enforcement officers out there. Cause the men and women on the streets are in a tough, tough place. Right now. You gotta find that positivity in your life and break away from it. So completely from the negativity, not break away from the positivity, hang onto the positivity. Oh, absolutely. A couple of thoughts. It's funny. You should say that because when I met my wife, I still had that look, you know, the look really well. It looks like you're always upset, even though you're not sure you actually would tell her family don't worry. It took me, it took me like two years actually get him to smile, you know, because he didn't know he wasn't smiling. And so I get that part of it. so yeah, we were talking beforehand before we had on. And one of the things that we noticed a lot of times when people talk about the conflicts within law enforcement and their communities and whatnot, it always comes up. Yes, we need more training. Okay. That's great. But what kind of training and personally, and I'm, I mean, you're sitting next to a guy who, I mean, he trains a lot of law enforcement agencies and he trains them in hand to hand combat and all those good things. But we were talking, we said, that's not the biggest problem here. The biggest problem we think. And we want you to tell us if we're right or wrong, is. There's not enough communication between law enforcement and the it's almost like you're on there. We do the same thing. Cops do the same thing. Now they're on the computer. They're on their cell phone, in the car. They don't, I think engage enough because what we were talking about is it's a lot harder to hurt somebody. God forbid have to shoot somebody. If you actually know who they are. So all the way from me growing up. I knew cops personally. I mean, they're friends of my dad's, who is principal and guidance counselor at my school. they were, you know, I played ball with their kids. It's like, Hey, you know how many touchdowns you give a score today? Jesse jr. I don't know. And then it was like, Hey, and then after the game, they were always there. And it seems as though we had a different view. Of law enforcement and, you know, we, but it was in a different view of respect. We always respected, you know, our seniors. It was never sometimes you question, but you didn't question to the point that it was confrontational. It was like, you know what? Okay. He said that I'm going to go talk to my mom or dad, and then I'll get, you know, a validation of whatever I believed or whatever you were saying was correct. But are, you know, we always talked about this. I remember back in the day where, you know, I was more afraid of getting. Having the cop telling my dad. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I'm getting a ticket. Take me to juvie. Just don't tell my father. Yeah. I mean, some of this is just societal, right? Things. Things are different now than what they were, you know, when, when we were all growing up and, and it's just, it's, we're in a different place in, in society. And that has. That has made a whole lot of things, you know, not like it used to be. And policing is one of them and, and respecting authority, unfortunately is one of them. And like you said, it's across the board, right. Things in the home are not as they were before. Things within schools are not as they were before and things with, you know, community relationships with police officers. Are not as they were before. So, you know, I go back and forth to, you know, lamenting and wishing. Oh. But it was so much simpler back then. and it, maybe it was, but we can't rewind. It's not going to happen. We've moved to this place. So now we need to shift and we need to think, okay, how do we make this work in this society? Cause this is where we are and this is what we have to deal with. one of the problems I think. One of the bigger problems that that police agencies are dealing with and how we've kind of gotten to this place is. Police departments. And really all of the criminal justice system, the courts are included in this, in this bucket here. They are all about precedent. And so by that, I mean, they do it because that's the way it's always been done. What did we do before? Okay. Let's just keep doing that. You know, that's how the that's all judges decide cases. They decided based on precedent. What's that that's the kind of human nature in a way, in some ways it did it's. Yeah. Look back and see, what did we do before? What did that guy decide? What, how did it, how did it used to work? Okay, well then let's do it that way. And policing is guilty of that too. And that, well, this is the way we train, because this is the way we've always drained. This is what we do, but we can't do that now because if we train cops, the way that we trained cops in the eighties, That's going to be a mismatch because we're not living in society of the eighties anymore. We're in society in 2020 and my God, it's a mess out there. So we need to shift. We cannot rely on what doing it the way we've always done it, but that really is what many, many departments. Do and so you're right. Training is a big deal. but we have to be doing the right training and we have to shift what we've done in the past and figure out the ways to do it differently. So, you know, society, we don't have that. Walk the beat, you know, friendly officer walking down the street and Hey, you know, because our that's not what people do anymore. You know, rarely, some people live or many people live out there and don't even know their neighbors anymore, you know, that's it's so we have to really get a bit creative here and figure out what works. And this is, this is, a thing, an opportunity. I think the police union is missing. Yeah, cause they could, they could come out and make a statement. They've been silent during this whole thing. They have really not said a word, all those opportunities and people are listening. Cops are looking for guidance. I mean, all my buddies that are from California to Jersey to Florida to Colorado are all saying the same thing. I said, well, what is the union say? And they'll say. Unanimously nothing. Yeah. The why, you know, why aren't they saying, Hey, this is our plan of action. Cause people aren't, you know, it's funny when we had the school shootings, everybody wanted cops to be more aggressive. And then we had this situation with BLM and everybody wants to be cops to be more passive and more understanding. Well, you're not altogether in some cases. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's ridiculous. I mean, really, there's a, there's an ad playing here in Denver now that a woman calls and says, Hey, I think my, my best friend or my neighbor's getting beaten by her husband, could you send that a law enforcement police officer? And he goes, well, no, we can send a social worker. And then I go, it's an interesting ad. You understand? You know, it's kind of. It's negative in the fact that people are not, are trying to, show that without the police department, what's your work going to be like, instead of going, Hey, this is what we can do to help this, you know, one, one bad person or two or three groups of bad people to all the millions of police officers out there that have a hard enough job to do the, a good job every day. Yeah, it could not be painted with the same brush. Yeah. And, and that ad is a perfect example of the us versus them mentality that is dominating in that. I mean, in my opinion, you know, I'm one person in other's roles certainly disagree. It's a direct reflection of the political state of our country. It's it's one side versus the other it's we're good. You're bad. Oh no, we're good. You're bad. And. And that is not it. That is such an oversimplification. I mean, even that example of, you know, what they were doing in that ad, it's actually a really wonderful idea to remove some of the pressure off of our police departments of having to handle every single mental health, social service community-based troublesome call. It's a great idea to partner up. In fact, some of the. Effective programs that I've seen in policing are, you know, our, our mental health and, and police teams that go out, they go by a bunch of different names. you know, that have an officer and a, a mental health worker that responds to mental health Fort Collins. Yeah. A lot of places had it. Wonderful. And it works, but that ad completely politicizes the issue. Right? It makes it, Oh yeah. If you want this and I mean, what cop doesn't want to have support from somebody who's trained in mental health to deal with these calls or to help them deal with these calls? This, this is a good idea, but you could easily sell it as a ludicrous one or one to blame the other side on it. If that's what you want to do. And yeah. That's what's happening so much right now is that everything is being turned into an us versus them battle. And now we have this amazingly sick and awful community versus police battle, but it makes no sense the police are supposed to protect the community. They're not actually out there trying to destroy the community. So, and, and so much of that comes from politicized issues. And. And dramatize media coverage and make it all sound so much worse. And they fan the flames of what already is a tense and difficult situation, because both sides of that argument. Yeah, absolutely. But again, that's why I have just extreme distaste for the media. I, I, you know, that what I like about that idea, and I know for obvious reasons when you go on different calls, but I like the fact, like I remember there were several times where it was so much easier. My, my old man was a LA County, deputy sheriff, so, and one of the things he told me when I first started was. He said, look, if you do this 30 years, there's no way you want to fight with every single person you come in contact with what you want to do is talk to him, right? He says, you'd be amazed how much you can get away with. So I liked the idea of having, you know, a professional. Like you're, you're basically a black belt in verbal judo. So why not have somebody there to show us, Hey, you know, if you approached it this way, maybe that wouldn't have happened. You know what I'm saying? Oh, wait a minute. But what we're trying to defund the police not pay for more quality training. Don't get me started. You're sitting a doctor. I mean, there's, there's answers here and there's solutions that make sense, but the problem is we have to get everyone to kind of take a deep breath and stop doing the knee jerk reaction where we're making these really dramatic. Changes that are not based in science. They have no evidence to show that the work, when we actually know some things that, that do work and that can help. and, and both sides want the same thing. Police, believe it or not, don't want to go out and shoot and kill people. Yeah, I believe. I mean, I know you guys believe it cause you know, the country seems to not believe that. And seems to think that, that the police forces are packed with these, you know, overly aggressive, just, you know, demons that go out and want to shoot everyone. And I mean, I spend half of my clinical time doing debriefings for people who've been in a shooting an incident. Let me tell you they're not happy. People just brought and distressed and overwhelmed and they do not want to be in that. In that situation. So, yeah, we just have a lot of misunderstandings and a lot of, A lot of finger pointing and us versus them blame going on. That does no one any good right now. How do we go ahead and say, how do we get to this? Like, we've been friends 30 years, Jesse and I. Okay. And we don't always agree. That doesn't mean we're gonna get in a fight to the death, right? We're not gonna get a fight to the death. It has nothing to do that. He's a former four time heavyweight champion of the world. That's not why we don't fight, but. But seriously, doc, you know, it's like, you can agree, but you learn from each other a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. It's not, you know, why, why does it have to always be to the extreme? How do you get past that right now? I think we've somehow slipped into this, you know, people call it that cancel culture. Like as soon as somebody disagrees or has an opinion that is different from yours, you just shut them down and turn the other way. I'm extremely intolerant of, you know, anyone who's different from us, anybody who differs in opinion, anyone who it's. Okay. It's, it's where we are right now. and it's a really. It's a really unhealthy place. There's a little, I'll give you some fun psychology. If you're up for it. There's a, there's a thing we talk about and to do whatever you want. We teach in our psych one Oh one classes and it probably comes up in every class we make our students take after that. But it's this idea called the fundamental attribution error. Right. The fundamental attribution error. And it's something that we, we do. we've had this full term around for many, many years now. It's something that we naturally do as humans that we tend to overestimate the role that personality traits play in behavior. And we underestimate situational influences. So, this is the example I give to my students when I teach this to them, I say, all right. So, you know, today I was driving on the freeway, coming to campus and I'm cruising on down there. And some idiot flies by me and cuts me off and, and speeds on up ahead. And I'm okay. Absolutely. You know, believe they're a complete idiot and they, you know, must be the biggest ass ever to walk the planet of the earth. And I hate this person. They're horrible. That's our natural instinct, right? That's our response to that one. When somebody drives by flying, going 95 and cuts us off and asshole, or first response is, Oh my goodness. I wonder if that person is having some sort of an emergency and need to get home because their, their spouse just, you know, had a major accident or, you know, their, their sister is having a baby and they're rushing to get to the hospital or we don't. Think about the situation and why that person might've been speeding. We just dropped down. They're a giant asshole, but that's the fundamental attribution error. So when we're in this, us versus them culture that we've got right now as a city, anybody who we see doing something wrong, we assume they are a giant asshole. They're horrible. They're a bad person. We discount them the role that the situation plays. So for law enforcement right now, Everybody wants to get rid of the police because, you know, if you see one that incident, and of course the media will jump on every bad incident and right now, even more so, and we'll, you know, or many of the positive, we, you know, we, we see that, we assume that person is evil. And we discount the situational factors. Now I can go, I can go the distance here and take the George Floyd incident as an example. And I know that's a really touchy situation, but I'm not scared I'll go there. So in that instance, we look at that officer and we say, what a horrible human being he is. And we might be right. Frankly. I know nothing about the man never met him. Don't know anything other than what the media and I don't trust the media. So I don't know what he might be a horrible person that might be right. But he may also be an officer in a department that didn't. To keep track of overly aggressive incidents. He might be in a place where those sorts of things have gone unnoticed or unpunished, or it may not be him that's evil. It may be that the department has problems that went unchecked, but we immediately go to hold the person responsible persona. That's a big example of the fundamental. Fundamental attribution or we assume it's the individual. We forget to look at the situation. So, you know, how do we generalize that? Well, there is need for changes in policing right now. But like I said before, we need to catch up to where society is now we need to police in today's society and what that looks like. I don't have all those answers. I'm not that smart. There's other people out there who I'm sure are going to figure that out and I'm going to read their writing and I'm going to then sing their praises too. but. For now we need to remember that we've got to look at what, what lets incidents like that become incidents like that. And what do we need to do within our departments and our agencies to prevent them, in a sensible logical way. Yeah. so yeah, that's sorry to have you on, I'm telling you once again, before we went live, one of the things I wanted to talk about was the limitations. People don't understand that they think, well, a police officer has all this power. They have to follow rules. I mean, that's the rule, the term law enforcement, right? They have to follow what the rules are. It's a quasi military organization. And you just, I mean, you hit on it, but it's even a wider aspect. What if they said, well, how come you even bother that guy to begin with? I I'm thinking back. Was it Eric Gardner? Yeah, I think with the cigarettes, right. That never should have happened, but it wasn't, and I'm not disputing that how he, they tried to arrest him or whatever. Was there some training issues there? Obviously it wouldn't have happened. Had they not had this. Stupid law that said, Oh, it's a misdemeanor to sell one cigarette at a time. If it was really there were that worried about the taxes, then make it an infraction, write them a ticket, and that would have been hit. And so it's those kinds of things that you, you get put in positions that you really don't want to be in, but that's the law, that's the law. So you're the bad guy, but you're just doing your job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think nobody's feeling that more now than some of the federal agencies and the things that are going down. They're just, they're, they're in really, really tough positions and it looks so bad from, you know, media coverage, angles, and, It, you know, there, there's just, it's not, it's not easy. We all, as a community, want safe policing. Nobody, nobody, should live in fear. No mothers should have to teach their sons, you know, how to avoid the cops and all of it. Like it should. It should be a true community partnership, but obviously at this point in time, right now, we are so distant from that. there needs to be a lot of healing. and I just think in our political climate right now that it, that it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. I didn't want to say it. So thanks for saying it for me. I'm going to kind of change the. Aggressor the retros a little bit college football. Well, I can talk college football. Okay. Now in one corner you have folks from Auburn. I have it now and Alabama. Who say great things. And, and for full disclosure, my, my brother and sister live in Alabama and Tuscaloosa. Right? The ones you like, or I remember I like that, but, it's, it's even, even with that, With that amount of energy and I'm not going to say anger cause it really isn't. It can be at times when they lose. Yeah. It's, it's not, it's not easy. Well often. but, even with that kind of fervor, it's interesting that on Monday through Friday, Your route via your team. You're you're saying whatever a little floating you say, there's nobody coming to punches Saturday. Tailgating, you could get a little and then Sunday you're rooting for your NFL team. And you forget, I'd say though, that that scenario is true probably anywhere except the state of Alabama, because they really don't even, it's all day of the week, every week, all year round, but they're unique. They're unique. How do you, we'll go back to a little bit of the other. So when you are determining who's going to be a police officer, and I don't think people realize that even though we do need some, it's actually not that easy of a process to become a police officer. Yeah. And then once you get through all of that, you have a training officer. How, I mean, is there a, so a backup when I was being trained, I was trained by a guy who eventually him and his wife became godparents to my children. And this is his, this is how I was trained. One of our first calls was to, well, your California. So four 15 domestic, right? And so domestic violence call and we get there and the doors open. And the reason we got the call was because of the loud noise. And we walk in and I'm like 23 years old and I'm just out of the Academy. And of course I'm invincible. And I just got to change the world. And these two people were yelling at each other. Okay. And so I'm going to rush in, I don't know what to do, but I'm in rush. I'm going to break them up. And his name is Courtney. He grabs the back of my collar and says, where are you going? And I go, well, I'm going to, he goes, you're going to, what. He goes, they're in their house. They're having an argument. Do you see anybody hitting each other? Do you see things brewing around the house? Do you see any, you know, does it look like she's really scared of him. Okay. He says, use your eyes. He says, just stand here. And we just stood there for like, could've been 15, 20 seconds. And all of a sudden, they both turned around. They're looking at us like, why are you standing there? And he goes very calmly. He says, well, listen, I don't mean to interrupt, but we got a call about the noise. So you, we could all sit down and talk about it. And of course they sat down and we stood and we ended up leaving and never had another problem there again. But I think, you know, it's the verbal judo thing, right? It's and it's like, he'd been doing it so long. He knew what to look for. And he was showing me. There's, you know, there's different ways to handle things. Whereas now we're going to go back to what you were just talking about. Nowadays, if you go on a call, some places, no matter what's going on, somebody's going to jail. So I mean that doesn't help either. Yeah. It doesn't. And I don't know that I have any, any brilliant answers between, I mean, we don't want to go one extreme and go completely crime and everything goes away. But at the same time, like your cigarette example is a perfect one, is everything. Does everything have to lead to an arrest? Right? there's a sort of an unrelated, but really. related, but unrelated example of, they've done some really amazing things in, Philadelphia with, their juvenile system and the school resource officers that, you know, used to be in place. They went, they have pretty much just erased. the, the arrest rate from within the schools has gone from like in the eighties to like nothing, because they've changed the way they define and approach, you know, policing and what the role of officers in schools are. It went from, we have this. The smallest disturbance, we're going to lock a kid up and take them off to juvie, to let's see what's going on and, and a much more holistic model and you know, not to go into all the details and whatnot of the program, but they've, they shifted the way they approach this and the whole mindset. you know, and this is a partnership between the, you know, and academics and they've studied it and it's the changes. Is, I mean, nothing short of miraculous and it didn't come from something dress. It came from a rethinking and a different approach. So surely we can take the ideas from programs like this and replicate those within communities, right? Like that has to be possible. So my hope for the future, for like where to go from here, kind of lies in let's learn from it, programs like that. Let's learn from how can we, we do policing in a way that. Still prioritizes safety. That's still prioritizes getting thugs and, and felons off the street, but like what else can we do to partner better and, and get off of this? Like, You know, policing on steroids kind of mentality, where we've got our cops that are bound to arrest people because they're selling a cigarette one cigarette instead of, you know, like there's gotta be some more logical ways to, to do things that promotes community partnership. Oh, in Philly, did they give the police officer like more latitude and how to deal with certain situations? Yeah. Diversion programs, support systems and mental health programs. Just community-based response as opposed to lock them up and throw away the key. It it's, you know, it's just, yeah. Different mentality and mindset and it's, let's not jump to arrest. We'll get the problem. Let's figure out how we can support and solve the problem and let's go for it and there, and it's, and it's working. And it's great. so I feel like we can't, we generalize and learn from that and put it, some of those ideas into the way we police our communities, as well as innocence. I mean, bottle should take off around the country. So the other school systems benefit from the great work that they're doing, Billy, but, but yeah, I feel like there's gotta be lessons there that we can generalize into community based policing also. That, that, that sounds similarly, familiar to Japan and the police officers are, have a lot, a lot of tools. Like they don't have to arrest you for something. They could just talk to you or move you. You know, that they'd much rather have you figure stuff out on your own, at least how was the appearance with the cops that I worked with? Because I did Kendo there. And judo when I lived over there and been going back and forth since the sixties. So it's, it's a wonderful place. It's safe. They don't have the same. Yes, they have crime, but it's, I mean, they have, what was the statistic last? I heard we have as much crime in New York and one minute, or is it one hour? I'll have to check on that and get back to you as they have in Japan, in a major city, Tokyo, and one year. Wow. And that's, that's phenomenal. And a lot of the cops don't carry guns. They carry sticks. They do community, you know, they talk, I mean, you look at the Bobby's in England. I mean, short of what they're dealing with with the IRA. and even that faction is somewhat disintegrated. But they're not having the same problems, but they're beat cops. They're cops who are actually walking, who know people in the neighborhood who are spending time, whole different respect for the police there as they have here. No, and they're not armed. So now America is a place with guns. Bottom line in the story. Can't change it. So if you don't have police that are up. That have at least as much firepower as the back guys. Yeah. Then they're going to lose. Yeah. Hey, coming from the middle of the seal background, military background, the last thing I want to do is get an F you know, it was a famous line that, they had in that, in the movie it's, you're crazy to bring a knife to a gunfight, right? Yeah. Unless you're, yeah, you gotta be real close, but anyway, that whole scenario is. You know, people getting into military militarizing, the police, that's not the police job. That's the military job in the military should be trained in, is trained on how to handle that scenario. The situation police are, our neighbors police are, are, are our first line of defense here. I know it's some of my friends who are cops. They they're funny. As you know, they, they always call hose draggers nasty names. But if you look at the difference between a kid seeing a cop and a kid, seeing a fireman Oh five and save people, they run into burning buildings. Cops run after guys with guns who are holding your mom, aunt, uncle, brother hostage. And if you look at the whole scenario or shooting up your neighborhood, No. If more people in neighborhoods got active in their neighborhood, like in Chicago and Maryland and some of these other places that are, I mean, look at the murder rate there it's higher than Afghanistan. Yeah. So let's, you know, let's put the blame to worse. Squarely needs to be. If you want your community to be safe, you start with living and working as a community, and then you empower and engage with your police force. And then go, go in a direction. That's that's not biased, but more, what's the word I want community friendly. You know, you have, you have, like I said, you can't, you can't turn the hands of time back, but you can work a new scenario or kids view cops as friends. You know, if you look at some of the things I had going on in these schools, Or what the, it was, and it was a good thing. It was a, a black cop on a black young lady or a little girl. She was at, she was aggravated spinning, throwing punches, and the security officer picked her up and slammed her. That was not the way to handle it, obviously not, but it was interesting that the media only showed it for the six o'clock news, maybe one or twice on the, on the, On a 10:00 PM the evening news, the latest it is, but if it would have been a black cop and a white person, or if it would have been a white cop and a black person, it would have run for days not to mention the kids out of control. And the teachers have exhausted every possibility on controlling this child. But then you have the parents who have no control over at home telling the police that that's your job. It's a tough spot to be in that's for sure. You know? Yeah. How are you supposed to respond to something like that? Right. It's like, no matter what side you're on, you're going to be wrong to some extent. So it's like bad things happen to us. It's not a good deal. so how do you, what do I know? You're very much involved in testing. Right. So is there anything that we could do different with that respect that might help us in the near future and we're testing or maybe more testing when they're already working? Maybe that's what we should be looking for. I don't know. So the like the testing, I guess, let me, let me separate two things like testing from, you know, Sort of psychological checkups are like the only time we do official tests, so does to a psychologist like me testing, it means pulling out my big chest, my MMPI and all that stuff. And really the main time that we do that is, is preemployment. So, you know, the vast majority of departments in the country require a preemployment, psyche, Val, any police psychologist like me, you know, the bread and butter of a police psychology practices doing preemployment evils. Cause. Everybody got to do them, got to get them all through. and so yeah, we, we give them a battery of two. I asked up here in California, it's the law that we, they used to give two different tests and, looking at different personality traits that we think are, you know, are predictive of, of who will make a decent law enforcement officer or who would not and screen those folks out is actually the way we do it. Right. We don't have an ideal profile or a perfect fit that somebody has to be. There's a whole lot of different types of people who make good cops we're really screening out the traits that would be problematic. So that's kind of the mindset for the preemployment. And in all honesty, I think there's been such good research and study and focus in that area. I feel like we kind of do what we can do there. we, we do good screenings. We get people, we, you know, we screen out folks who are not going to be a good fit or who are just not gonna make it right to psychologically fragile or, you know, have some strong aggression tendencies. You know, those folks we can, we can prevent from coming onto the job. And that's, that's a good thing. The place we fall short is that once you're on the job, That's it. The only time you're going to get sent back to my office for another evaluation and to take my tests again, if you've been referred for a fitness for duty eval, and nobody wants to be referred for a fitness for duty about that means somebody is questioning whether or not you can continue to do your job. Your badge and gun are on the line now, and that is a terrifying place for an officer to be in. So we don't want those. we, those are scary for everybody involved and, and really overwhelming. that doesn't mean that, you know, in all cases of fitness for duty means you're never going to work again. It might mean, Hey, yeah, there's a problem. Let's get you some treatment. Let's get you some port so we can get you back on the job. In most cases that is doable in, in some. You know, it's rarer smaller numbers. It's not, so there's a big gap. Oh, go ahead. It's gonna say so, you know, police officers, they get their evaluations depending on where you are, like every three months or whatever, this is how you're doing. These are your stats. Everything's about numbers. I don't think people realize that either. But is there any way you think it would be beneficial if like, when you're getting your evaluation, you, you have to go see. You know, the doctor or whatever, and everybody has to do it. So the stigma is somewhat removed because it's just a requirement. And maybe you find things a little bit early that you, until it actually happens. Is that, is that a good or a bad idea? That is a great idea that has been suggested for a long time. And that is where my absolute passion right now lies in creating wellness programs for departments, in a wellness program can mean a whole bunch of different things, but for me, One of the really, really important key components. The thing that I think could really stand to make a difference is an annual, you know, psychological well-check, just like you should have an annual physical well-check and I believe those are vitally important for officers to get your physical screening. many departments that have that offer, you know, an incentive or for doing it, you get, you know, a few hours of leave time, time for doing your passing, your physical full screen, same should be true for your psych screen. You know, you get four hours leave time for doing that. You come in and you do your sights. So some of them do it as an incentive program or have proposed it as that, others have said it would work as a mandatory, everybody does this. Everybody does it. Can you do it once a year? And it's not a big long, you know, do a million tests like we do in preemployment. It's just. Literally a check-in come talk. Let's see. Yeah, what's going, let's identify stressors. Let's find the problems when they're small so that they don't become big and they don't become job impacting. So where you're going for a fitness for duty. So that's that in between range, right? From. Preemployment too. You do the job for 15 years. You never get checked up on, we have no idea how you're managing the weight of this difficult job. And then all of a sudden, you know, shit hits the fan and you're in a fitness for duty situation. There's a whole lot we can do in between there. To protect and help and to identify problems when they're little catch that alcohol problem, that's just starting rather than one that's been there for seven, eight, nine years. That's turned into a massive addiction where the person can't function anymore. Catch that PTSD early on. Yeah. And it's just starting rather than the person who's quietly suffering and becomes suicidal and takes their own life. And we miss it. Because nothing happened. These there's so many things that we miss because everybody's just too busy, being tough and going about their jobs and not talking. So right now, for me, that is kind of where my, where my passion lies is really trying to push this. It's not my idea. Other people have had this idea long before me, but the sad thing is, is it is not getting it. Hasn't taken blank. Very very few departments who are doing it for some strange reason. To me, I think it's strange unions oppose it. And I mean, I get it that they say that, you know, it's going to put them at risk for exposure, the confidentiality, the, you know, if you detect something, then their job is on the lights. Like I get, I get that mentality, but it's actually the opposite that we're trying to protect and keep healthy and, and, and keep people on the job and manage problems. Right when they're starting, not when they get to be huge. So in my mindset, when presented and designed in the right way, it is a very nonthreatening thing to do. It's a, yeah, it's a good relationship that that provider has with the department and the officers come to know that person because they check in with them every year. Yeah. You know, and so to me, I just, I it's, it's having trouble taking hold and there is literally no research done on it. So I have been working hard. and, and, and I'm hoping that things start moving in the right way. I've had a couple of departments say they're interested. A lot of them, it stalls out. It's a matter of finances. It's a matter of support from the higher ups. It's a matter of getting it by the year unions and getting the union to see the positive aspects of it. So they're not easy to start. But I I'm at a point right now where I'm just going to keep pushing until I find that right magic department and we do it and we can study it and show, Hey, look, this, this can work. We can do this. and, and there are some small examples out there. but, but, you know, in, in really limited form and there hasn't been any formal research done to, to study it yet. So that's what I'm trying to do these days. I was president police association where I worked before I retired out and, I would, except that in a heartbeat, because to me that's just, you're, you're removing liability by if there's something there early, you fix it, you know, where it's the same thing. Like, you know, it's not, I don't think it's not as negative is, but it's a little over amplified as, Oh, you know, they don't shoot enough for this or that. That's, that's a very rare thing. We get that all the time. Right. But the same thing there is. You know, you do have to qualify certain times under certain skills and your mental health is basically a skill you need every day too. So, yeah. Yeah. That's my argument is, is you might use your gun twice in your career and use your mental health and your, and your stress level needs to be in check. And your mental wellbeing needs to be on point if you're going to survive every day. So we, you know, But it's, it's historically been, you know, we don't need that cause we're tough and impenetrable and we don't need any of that. And I mean that, stuff's all changing. That's it's shifting some departments are still very old school. Others are like super new age and you know, I've read about a bunch of different. wellness programs that look different ways and departments. They've got people coming in doing yoga on duty. They got a yoga teacher coming in. They got mindfulness instructors. I mean, people are there. There's a whole wide range of things that, you know, wellness can be. and I love that whatever's going to help people to be in a better. Physical and mental space is going to help them do their jobs better. And it's going to reduce force. It's going to increase communication. It's going to help officers be in the right mental space to go out and be able to handle all the stuff that's going to be thrown their way and the average shift. And that's a lot, we gotta decompress and get that stuff, you know, be in the right mental space to take it on where it's going to be a mess. Yeah, that's that's, you know, you hit on. So what you're saying is like this guy back here, I couldn't not be that syndrome. We want people to be able to think clear and not go wild, wild West out there. You know, you, you made me think of just one of the things, when you, were talking about that, and that is so. I, that makes so much sense to me to do that, because then what happens is it's like this buildup, so you just had a really bad call. You got through, you handled that well, but now you're all, you know, you're jacked up, you go to the next call and they're going to get the brunt. It's like, you know, who just kicked the cat or whatever, right. So you need some kind of release or at least somebody to say, Hey, you, you need to, you know, take a vacation or something. But yeah. it's amazing to me that, that hasn't been and accepted more readily. It really is. Yeah. I mean, there's certainly complicating factors, but it's, I feel like once you start breaking through some of the barriers and figure out some ways that it works well, that that hopefully other departments will jump on board. and I, I really believe there will be noticeable positive effects. From, from some of the things we can do, not just, you know, the checking in with people, but being able to give them some, you know, places to go, competent mental health clinicians. And by that, I mean like mental health clinicians who are trained and understand law enforcement culture, not just your average, you know, EAP counselor who doesn't know, you know, anything about police work because so many cops get sent there and they're like, this person just doesn't like, They don't understand. I mean, I've heard terrible stories of, of just. Really bad experiences when they have actually gotten into someone's office. And they've been brave enough to take that step and go, you know, explore the option of counseling and then they get some person who just doesn't understand it, all, what they do. So some of the other cool things going on in the police psychology world is, is they're working on getting together a database and a list of. Of mental health providers who are trained and competent and in sort of the culture of law enforcement people like, like me who really care and do everything they can to understand what the job is like and what it's like to be there. And, and who, who, who generally, when only connect many of these people were former law enforcement or they've come from law enforcement families. and they, and they get it. There are there are people out there who do these things and they really do it because they get what's going on. But if you get one of the other types, then. It's usually not a good experience. I knew, I knew you were somebody who had that personal experience when you described, I think you'd be really at a baseball game or something. And you were wondering why everybody was happy. I was listening to you talk about that. I was in my car. I bought crashed. I was laughing. Yeah, that was, she gets it. I mean, she just, you know, I mean, so in that regard, you're talking about someone who understands you were there. So you, you, you understand that feeling because you've felt it yourself, right? Yeah. And that was, you know, I've never been a police officer, but that was after years of working in corrections, working in prisons, working in metal. W w what, what was going on because it's yeah, yeah. I'll tell the story. I tell it all the time, because it, it really was a profoundly, like eye opening. A couple of events that happened right after each other. And so, you know, I had, I had spent a few years working in the state forensic hospital, which, you know, maximum security among the not guilty by reason of insanity ward. These people have been there, you know, it's, it's intense stuff. And then went to there to the federal prison, worked on their high security, mental health. I mean, I was just. Seeing some stuff. So years of that, and I'm, I'm completely unaware and thinking I'm just my normal self. and I, a friend from college came to visit for the weekend and we were hanging out and chatting and you know, about three or four hours in, she sort of looked a little nervous and she said, you know, Nancy, you're, you're different when I was like different. What do you. What do you mean different? She's like, you're a little scary. Like I'm just me. She's like, you're just kinda hard and you seem a little angry and I just completely, I laughed it off. I'm like, Oh, you're crazy. Like, whatever. I just, it was a bad day at work, bad, blah, blah. And, you know, moving on and I kind of just blew that off and didn't think much of it. And. I'd say it was maybe a week or two later, I had traveled to go visit my sister or who had young kids at the time. and so I was sitting at my, you know, young little nephew's baseball game and looking around this, you know, it, all these families and they're all smiling and laughing and, and they're playing the bass fall and everybody's happy. And I remember like, what's wrong with them? Like, why are they also. Happy and, and like, don't, they know that things are not safe and that the world is just an ugly, scary place and that they should really be more careful. And I was like, Whoa, like, I've gone there. Like she here, my friend was right. Like, I. I have become a little bit tainted by these years of being around offenders and people who are severely, mentally ill day in and day out, at work. And it really has colored my view of the world. Like they were all happy and, you know, normal, and I was like, what's going on here? So it really was eye opening and I thought, wow, I. I have shifted my worldview and I do need to maybe spend some time doing some normal people activities and a little less time behind bars and with severely, mentally ill folks. and it, you know, a little while later I shifted into academia. So now I'm in those situations a lot less often than I was before and less often. I mean, I can't say I never ended up behind bars, but. I joke, but you know, doing ride alongs and seeing that side of it, of stuff it's still there. And, and I, I remember it and, and, you know, revisit it when it's, when it's part of the job. And I want to do that to connect with, you know, departments and officers. But, but I also have a balance in my life to now where, you know, I have kids at this point and do things with my own children. So keeping that balance again, that's one of those things to sort of keep yourself mentally. In check. And to remember that not all of life is bad, but yeah. Yup. Been there, seen it, done it slipped into the dark side too, and had to pull myself right back out. That's yeah. That's that's that's just a great story. Now. It literally, when you were telling that story go, yeah, this lady, is she, not only is she, like I said, educated, obviously highly educated, but she's actually done it. I mean, you don't have to. Walk around with a badge and a gun to not, if you're in the wrong environment too long, you become part of that environment. You know, it's just, I think it's almost like a survival mode that you go into because you have to, to survive. Yeah. And I will say in policing is, is. Is a whole wholly different beast than corrections. And, and I will never, I will never forget my first ride along and the feeling of cruising around town in a cop car and looking like this is so different from what I thought it would be like what, and just soaking it all in and trying to learn and understand like, what is it like to be in this role, in the what's different? What was the biggest thing that was different for you? I'm really curious. My very first, right along the things that stood out the most of me was how everybody stares at you. When you're in a car, you know, with lights, like everybody's looking. And I was like, I feel so conspicuous. Like everyone would go by turns and looks cop car. Like if you were just so there and present and the highs and lows, then like we're sitting there bored and nothing's happening to something's going and you go from zero to 60 in such a flash, and then, you know, that's done and you're back sitting for two, like the, the roller coaster of. you know, a 12 hour shift is just unlike anything I had experienced. And you don't think about, you know, you watch TV shows and it's all go, go, go, go, go. And yeah, yeah. That's one hour. And the others you're like, you know, fighting to stay awake and like just. You know, the tiny nuances that I would have never imagined had I not gotten to hang out and just talking, you know, over decades now of talking to officers and learning and, and, and seeing, and, you know, just being able to kind of soak it all in and, and learn the nuances of, of what is a really unique job. Yeah. And important and important job, that not everybody's cut out to do. Thank God for people like you, duck. Thank you. Well, thank God for people that are brave enough to go put on a badge and gun and go out and take care of the rest of us. Yeah, well, they need to get taken care of too, so yeah. Need to do, and I, I'm glad that I can contribute to that piece and there's a lot of other people just like me out there who, who really care and want to, and want to help. So before we let you go, they laughed at me, but I think this is, I come up with a name for you. They laughed at me. Yeah. I feel a little scared play the cop. Whisper. I'll take it. Shit. I'm going to, I'm going to work on that. Yeah, I like it. That is, that is a good one. Well, I think you already have, but know that, any time you think there's something that needs to be shared with, you know, with everybody obviously, but you know, on our end, it's going to be a lot of military law enforcement. you gotta, you have an open invitation. You're, you're an amazing person, amazing person. We're really proud to have you around pricing. So few people get it and you do. well, I, I try hard and I've always just had a deep appreciation for people who serve their country, whether it's military at home and overseas, these are on our streets and our communities every day. It's a deep, deep, and profound appreciation and respect for our men and women out there. And, you know, if I can do a little bit to help and support, then, I'm glad I can do that part. Cool. Well, we don't you have that looked like you might be a little hangry. I'm sure it's getting there. Yeah. After five, I need something. Anyway, we really appreciate you coming on the show. Like I said, you have an open invitation. and on occasion, if you don't mind, I may email you about, Hey, what about this or that, because you're just a, you're a wealth of information and we really appreciate that. And I'm sure all our listeners appreciate it too. So, you know, Godspeed, well, thanks for having me and take care of yourselves and yep. I'm here. If I can help and support in any way. Thank you very much. Great. Thanks guys. I hope to talk to you again soon. Michigan plate. We'll be back soon. We will never change our tune. We thank you for your loyal support. So please subscribe and share our port sound off. Wound to sound off three, four sound off wound two, three, four. Let's roll.