Learning to Fight - Episode 21 (Rory and Adam Singer)

Learning to Fight Podcast — Conversations in Combat Skill

After a year-long hiatus, the Primal MMA Coaching Podcast is back—Rebranded, and refocused as the Learning to Fight Podcast: Conversations in Combat Skill.

Your hosts are:

Adam Singer — Co-owner and head coach at SBG Athens, BJJ black belt, long-time MMA coach, with years of developing novice to elite level fighters. Student of Matt Thornton and SBG's philosophy of 'aliveness'.
Scott Sievewright — Co-Owner at Primal MKE, MMA skills coach and obsessive student of how humans learn to move and fight. 

Together, we dive deep into the art and science of coaching, training, and skill development in combat sports.
 Expect honest conversations about MMA, striking, grappling, practice design, contemporary research, traditional approaches, ecological dynamics, and the messy realities of learning under pressure.

No gurus. No dogma. Just two coaches trying to understand fighting a little better each week.

Same curiosity. New lens.
Learn how to learn.
Find your own style.
Thrive on the mats—and in the cage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

What is up, Rory? Hello, Adam. We are here without Scotty. We are the Jews taking over this podcast today. Scotty is on a beach in Mexico. I still feel like he could have done a podcast on a beach in Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

I mean, only if he really enjoyed doing this and didn't think of it as work because he could be hanging out with a drink and getting it done. Maybe we don't even get the back though.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Maybe it's just maybe this is now the Singer Brothers podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

The Singer Brothers I was thinking maybe this would be episode one.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Learning how to fight with the Singer Brothers. First thing I want to talk about is I just got back from the NFL draft. And I find it I don't know if you do this now. I think you do this when you watch your daughter play soccer and go to soccer practice, but I look at everything through the lens of what we do now. Um and so ecological psychology and ecological dynamics has made this much bigger impact on my life than just affecting how we coach the gym. But I also filter everything, especially in sports, through it. And so I listened to the I I'm a big draft fan. You know that obviously I've been watching it since I I think eighth grade is the first time I sort of took off school to watch. It was in the afternoon. It was broadcast on a local channel, no one gave a shit about it. But I was fascinated just and I think what I was most fascinated with was how people were looking at athletes and making these decisions that had billion-dollar impacts. And I I listened to why people choose certain people and when they choose them, and it amazes me how often choices are are maybe not completely made, but they are affected by things that have nothing to do with uh football. Right? Because uh they they have the ability to watch every play a guy had in his college career. So you so you were talking about thousands of snaps of film you could watch. And yet they still make them run and they still make them, they measure them and they make them do these drills that that have nothing to do with football, and then they use all that data to talk themselves in or out of the things that the film tells them. Very strange.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

The idea that they would need anything more is yeah, looking looking at it through the lens, we look at things now related to sports and practice and stuff. It seems silly. And then you're gonna have pages and pages uh from the analysts about how this guy's arms are really short. Well, he did all these amazing things, so they weren't sure about it, but his arms were short. Right yet he did all these amazing things. Like, did you think that was fake? Look at the same guy, he's fighting.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Yeah, so the the there's the guy with the short arms, a guy named Ruben Baines from Miami. And so he has arms that are, and again, they've collected this data forever. And uh, we've seen some of this data and talked with other people in other sports that have this data, and they have so much data that they can say, okay, this guy's arms are so short, he's an he's not just an outlier. No one like him has ever been successful. And so they say he might have been successful at the college level, but when he gets to the pro level, he will not be able to do those things because his arms are too short. And I guess what happens is if you're the person making these choices, if you take an outlier and they don't make it, you lose your job. So it is much safer just to take someone who's not an outlier. If they don't make it, which 50% of the guys don't anyway, then you don't lose your job. And if they do make it, you look like a genius, even though everyone knew he was good in college. The the one that really stuck out to me is um there was a kid, a wide receiver, who got drafted, and the knock on him was that he had a hard time catching the football in college. And and I just I'm like, wait, that was his only job. That's about it. And this is where sort of that that ecological crossover is they assume when he gets to the NFL, some coach will teach him some technique that will then allow him to catch the football which he couldn't do pre-bet. And and I that was what that maybe that's the maybe that's the biggest issue, right? Is coaches thinking that they can just teach anyone to do anything.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

And you so uh devil's advocate, maybe they can teach someone. So let's say they could teach someone for something. It's not gonna happen. You are not going to move past all your previous things. You you know the scientific terminology, the things that were attractors. You're not gonna move past all this kid's attractors that kept him from catching a ball in like a season or in a couple practices preseason, he's gonna need some time. So to get a lot of athletic.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Maybe he's just not good at catching the football.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

That's what I'm saying. So even if you could fix it, if you could, it wasn't gonna it's not gonna happen in the season. He's had 20 years of however he was catching the ball and dropping it.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

More than that, now he's trying to catch the football versus even better guys. So it's the same thing. Like if you're worried that the short arms are going to really show up versus better opponents, then why is his inability to catch the football? And let's not get, I mean, sure. We're splitting hairs now between one guy and the other guy and saying he dropped the ball ten, but dropping the ball four or five times in in a season in college is a is a big deal because that's all he's supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

A lot of athletics on the line. We're gonna be four with his athletics.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Right. And it's not like the coaches in the NFL are different coaches from the coaches in college. I mean, that's where they're chosen from usually. And so I the idea that some magical wide receiver coach will teach him how to do the only thing that he's really supposed to do just strikes me as funny.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah, and it puts it all in this kid's hand. It was his hands that were the problem because he dropped the ball. So we'll fix how he catches it, he won't drop it when there's way more involved in his ability to catch a football than just his hands on it.

unknown 5:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

And so use the flip side of that. And I know I don't want to turn this into a football podcast, but I I think that what when we talk about any other sport, I think a lot of it still should resonate with uh MMA coaches. The flip side is they'll they'll question how a guy catches the ball. Does he catch it with his hands? Does he catch it in his body? Does it and I'm like, does it matter? And maybe it does. Maybe I that's where I don't know enough about the game itself. But I would think catching a football is the most important thing for that guy if he's effective at it. It'd probably be easier to fix or help him if he's already effective than if he's dropping a football. I don't anyway. Um we had uh we had a disappointing result in a fight on Saturday, right? Results, not performance. Took an L. It happens, but yes, not performance, results for sure. And what what do we learn? What do we learn from Addis coaches?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

We learn to be more aware, I guess, of the opponent, his size maybe. I don't really think it was an experience thing, because I only really think experience in a cage is to get comfortable in the cage. So our fighter's been comfortable in the cage since he began. Uh right. Never looked uncomfortable in maybe five, four, five, whatever it's been fight. This is a second pro fight. Uh but there are probably limitations as to size, discrepancies, and things of that nature that should be taken into account. A fighter should be able to keep it his weight a little bit better throughout the year to uh so that he it doesn't have to take catchway fights. And that's on that's on both. That's on the coach, that's on the athlete. Uh but we have to approve the fights in the end. And if we weren't really we shouldn't really think about that, maybe we didn't think the kid was going to come in or have been cutting down from so much. Really was just five pounds away from the normal weights, but you live and learn and you do a better job the next time, and you hope that that fighter keeps in a little better shape and keeps his weights where it needs to be, so that he's not thinking, well, these opportunities only come so often, which is possibly definitely something that goes to read that in UFC all the time. Guys want to fight, they can't always get fights because there's so many guys. So you want him to be closer so that when it's time to take that fight, because they are limited, it's the right fight and not the fight you think you need to take, something you want to take. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah. We don't want to have to. Um, you don't think so? I get what you're saying about experience in the cage, right? And and but I think that a guy with one pro fight versus a guy with nine pro fights, there is something to be said for the those nine times where that professional is geared up for five minute, you know, three, five-minute rounds, there is still, I think, a significant experience difference. Even if it's not the ability to be comfortable in the cage, I still think there's a tremendous experience difference between one pro fight and nine pro fights.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

That could be true. Uh about then we'd have to ask how do some of these guys who step in with a lot of wrestling experience who have never really even done MMA before, fought on an amateur level, and very quickly go from having trained for only a year or so sometimes to dominance or or success.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

But I would argue those are I'd argue those are hundreds of fights. Okay. Right? I mean, hundreds of times gearing up and driving to an arena and making weight and rehydrating all of the things surrounding more than just being comfortable stepping in there. So maybe our fighter didn't have the adrenaline dump that a young fighter has and any of that, but there was a lack of experience, and I think it shows in just how you can maybe, maybe it's maybe that's when we talk about skill, the more the more experienced you are, the more able you are to adapt to what that situation is.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Sure. That's really possible. I think this fighter certainly had some other unfortunate variables, but uh as just as as a as a whole, I I I wouldn't disagree with that.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

So I what I learned, I think, is for for me, um and I had this discussion with some of the guys last night, including the guy that fought and our uh the pros and stuff, is that uh the work done in the room and again we we look at this as a you is a system, right? It's uh nothing I wouldn't make a triangle and say these pieces are here and then these pieces, these pieces. I'd make a big uh it you know when you take all the words that you use and you make them into that like graphic uh I think it looks more like that uh than it does a a triangle and this is built on this, it's built on this. It's all part of the environment. It's all part of the environment, it's all part of the system, whatever whatever words you want to use. Um I think that there are pieces in the system that maybe I and you as the coaches have not stressed enough. Um when we had our first group of guys making runs at the UFC at titles and all those things, um, we used to get up with them at five in the morning and go work out with them. Right. So they knew that that weight room stuff was of utmost importance. Like they were they knew that they needed to go do some road work. They and so I think that maybe those are some aspects of this new group that we have not stressed enough is weight room, you know, strength, the the cardio done outside, off the mat, out of the room. Um nutrition, recovery. We talk about those things, but have we really provided them enough information? I mean, we know the information is out there, it's easy to get, it's free, but we are still the the guides.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

So then that would that would uh you'd have to take a look that then to your idea of not handholding, because they know those things exist. We've certainly talked about them to some degree, which I mean we definitely have not never not ever talked about strength training and and conditioning and road work and things of that of that nature. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

And the weight room is next to the weight room.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Like you walk through that thing like like that in my house and you're waiting. Uh right. So and and you don't want to handhold them because I don't because we got other things going on also, and yes, we're coaches and we are there for athletes, but it can't all be upon us because then I'm not suggesting there needs to be a little bit more of just, I guess you stay on top of it more. You just you can you are constantly at least asking, hey, you guys getting in the weight room this week? Have you guys done your road work this week? Maybe it's just to remind us you're not gonna take time to do it. They know that you are very smart about traffic and this thing. Coach Steve is very smart. Like they know the information exists. We have told them multiple times, ask the questions, you will get the information because we can put our hands out to a lot of people for help. So maybe it's just being that overbearing parent with a cobar that call, hey, you're doing the things you're supposed to be doing, and just look at it. Are you doing what you're supposed to be doing?

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Right. And I don't care, like I don't I don't want uh yes, but or no but either. I don't really care. I'm asking the question just to remind you, remind the athlete that these are the expectations. Whether you do it or not is going to show up.

unknown 12:46

Right?

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Like our fighter last n uh for Saturday, he's a bit of a tweener. In in a lot of in a lot of worlds, he is being recommended to cut to 125. Um because that we have another pro 135, and when you look at them side by side, and we have another amateur 135, and when you look at all three of them side by side, one of these things does not look like the other. And this goes to, you know, we could go full circle to this football thing, but there probably is a set of attributes, body attributes, or or morphologies, shapes, sizes, lengths, whatever, that are more successful at each weight class than others. And so I'm not suggesting I don't want to tell anyone to cut another 10 pounds and hate life, but though there is another option, which is bulk up a little bit. For sure. It won't make him longer, but if he's gonna be in more wrestling type of situations, is he's gonna be in more clinch type situations because he's a little shorter. And being a little stronger would never hurt anybody.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

No, and you you had them last night, and I had them the night before. Uh I had just the guys and girls who who were fighting. Uh, and I basically said that I'm like, we're in we are we are in a weight class sport. It has incumbent upon you to be the biggest and strongest you can be at the lowest weight that you can comfortably and safely make. And you have no idea what that is until you start packing it on somehow, whether with with strength training, and they're like, okay, well, I'm getting too bulky, so now I'm walking around to have, okay, well, now you now you dial it in, so you stay as big and strong as you need to. You don't put on muscle mass. You get in the hot the cold plunge because you don't get as muscular, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

No, you just change the way change the way you lift. I mean, that's the far as far as it's like. You just find it.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah. You find it.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Right. You can get stronger, you can get very strong without gaining too much size. I mean, look at the look at the guys who are you know power lifters or or weight Olympic lifters. You can do that. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Um, so just you just you just then go and do that. If you want to be serious in this sports or in any sport, if you want to have a career, if you want to be a professional athlete, then there are things you need to do. And maybe it takes a loss where some of that comes into play, and then there's a moment in that in that fighter's journey, you know, the hero's journey, where he or she said to himself, I didn't like that. I don't want that to happen again, and I'm gonna go fix it. And better that that happens earlier for whatever reason, than at 10 and 1 and you're on the doorstep. Figure that out at one and one. Like I figured it out training with Forest. I'm eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches at night to keep weight on, losing weight the week of weights, because I always cut weight very easily. And I'm training with horse with 205 pounds coming down from 230. I'm like, how can he and I be in the same weight class? And then it was like, all right, well, I'm gonna do all these things I'm still doing because I need to keep weight on and get stronger, but now I'm gonna cut to 185.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Right. And uh and in today's MMA, I might suggest you cut to 170.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Listen, I might be 50 this next month, but it's still April 30th. I might be 50 next month, but I've seen myself weighed in. That would have been like 15 pounds of water weight. That would have killed me. I'm still 6'2. I still like to give it a shot. 7% body fat when I weighed in. I got that one photo when I fought JC McDonald, and I looked good.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Give it a shot. That's all I'm saying. You could have given it a shot.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

And then I had what? Then I went to go train at Mill pitches, and I'm training with Jeremy Horde and Kim Sylvia and Matt Hughes, and I'm on the ground and he tries to put my head through a wall. So I'm like, yeah, those are gonna be the thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

No, 170.

unknown 16:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

170 is uh beat up by Matt Yu. Yeah, you can't hide, you can't hide at 170. That's that's for sure. That is, I think if you draw a bell curve, I'd expect the majority of the best guys to be at 55 and 70.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

So all right, well, we we can't we can't go back in time. I can't fix that. But I think it high it just highlights all the things that that go into being successful as an athlete. And and you know uh it I don't know if all it does all that become this definition of skill, like or or the like because the the more physically capable you are throughout the fight, the more you are able to do the things that you need to or want to, or whatever that is. Like that's why we could talk about it separately. The doctor that was on the other day, his idea of skill is intention and action. But at some level, you also have to be able to stop the other person's intention. And maybe it's the same thing, maybe that's just they're just words, but when you are fatigued, you know, um and there are guys we see that have like the cardio superpower or the power, you know, the power superpower, the chin superpower. But if you're not blessed with those things, then you have to spend your entire career either hiding those things from other people, building those things to whatever level you can, um, and that's you know, that that's just the way life is. If you got short arms, then you better be good at other things.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Works for Sean Shark. He was really good at having a tremendous gas tank, being very strong. Just to look at him, you could see that. Yeah. But he took those short arms and that gas tank and that strength. A guy of his muscle mass who who had a tank like, you know, like Forrest in his prime or Uriah Faber, like he could just take a go. So those he's he's one of the best guys in that weight class, but he had type of tools, obviously. He was a good fighter, but then he had these other things that you just you you you were genetically gifted with. Now you can contain them, but you were genetically gifted with those.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Do you think every every athlete has something? What do you mean? Like if we if we could parse out all the qualities a person has, right? Do you think that we can uncover in every athlete something that could form the basis of what everything else looks like? Like as an example, like cardio, right? Or like a gas tank, or length, or power, or chin, or speed, or or something.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Or are there just guys the thing that the thing that we say, okay, well, this is the thing we're gonna build all our skill towards. This is the thing he's best at.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah, I mean build, yeah, let's not say skills, but build whatever.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, you look at a guy like Beebe, and he had a gas tank, his stand-up wasn't great, but he could pressure, pressure, pressure, cage, take down, beat you up on the ground.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

But he he has to, like, if you're gonna pressure, then you have to have other mental and physical. So like maybe we maybe we can't parse them out into some kind of but maybe there's a spider graph. You've ever, you know, the you've seen the spider graphs, I think the UFC Institute does them. Maybe there's a spider graph that takes all these things into account. I don't know what we do with that information. We'd still train them the normal same way and it would develop on their own. But I do it like in a in a perfect world. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Uh yeah, I don't know how you train all those things anyway, because you if you're like all these things are important, and then you're gonna if we're at we're gonna create games for that or you know, experiences for that. I'm not sure you could parse all those out and then build on each one. I think it all has to happen together anyway.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Right. I think they they make the choices, but I think that, and maybe maybe that what I'm actually saying is what we shouldn't do, what maybe other coaches do is try and turn people into something they're not, and we should just let them become what they are, but maybe we nudge them, you know, maybe according to what what they are as a human being, that person, their form of life. Can we nudge them a little bit into one path or another just based on that form of life? Like if a guy has a weak chin, we might nudge them away from being a rock and so swing and yeah, wang and bang type of fight.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Sure, but wouldn't he also likely figure that out in in the gym, possibly, or maybe if we're a little bit safer in the gym, not Jim, but gonna step into one of his first fights, he's gonna fight that way. And he hopefully he doesn't get knocked out, beat up, but he's gonna get beat up a little bit. And then if he does get touched, he might get knocked down once or twice, and the bike gets stopped as an amateur because the refs are saving. And then he comes back and they're like, hey, maybe that's not the way you should be fighting.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

But maybe he has dynamite in his hands, and he doesn't figure that out until because what you said, go back for a sec, because Scotty and I talk about this all the time, is that if we are in an ethically driven room, then there are some corrections that don't occur in the room if the fighter doesn't like see them, I guess. Because like I I try and tell the guys if every time you get hit, every time you get touched in a room, no matter how hard it was, I think that you have to pay attention to that. It could have been the one. Because it it could it's just a little bit whether it's the one. And if it wasn't this partner, it's other people. But asking them to pay attention to something like that and actually making the behavioral changes are different things. Right? So if if head trauma wasn't an issue, then we would still try and ethically train because we don't want the guys it's hard to build a culture where guys are beating the shit out of each other. But I think they would leave every session with more of a behavioral change than if if you know they have to sort of be a little more. Introspective about how the session left.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Sure. We you know we press upon them all the time, hit don't get hit. We we they hear they they also hear, you know, don't don't don't rock and stock them robots, you know, you know, things like that. So we build the drills around that. All of those things certainly together, you hope we we we don't think our words have changed a lot of behavior, but hopefully they can internalize the words and and maybe over a period of time can change their own behavior by hearing hey, you get you get in touch a little too much. I need you to need you to be a little more aware, you know. It's not just it. You gotta you gotta learn how to defend some of these things. Stand in a pocket, it's a firefight. Someone's gonna someone's gonna fall down. Watch we watch the dude point in the middle of a cage for 10 seconds, and somebody fell down. That's what happens in a fire. So I think all of it, again, you've got to build the games around it, there's girls around it, you gotta build, you've got to build even our words that we still have to share our knowledge and 30 something years of experience. There's a lot of knowledge, a lot of fight footage being seen.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

You know, it's right, but saying like they know that the job is to hit and not get hit. Everybody in our room knows that. Everyone in every room everywhere that's striking knows that. They don't always do it though. Right. And so the the words, the words and seeing it and the knowledge about that are don't matter. So maybe we have to find ways to like I I always can wonder if we're doing enough offense-defense type work, if we're doing enough defensive type work. Uh, we can't I don't want to separate defense from offense. I in my eyes, there is no separation. But you know, how to we've got to improve defense, and and if they are in a room where they're they can take shots, uh will they improve their defense? Like separated from jujitsu, right? If you uh when you roll, you get submitted. It is a very cut and dry. And the effect of that on your behavior is immediate. And I just wonder if we have to do a little bit of a better job because we are protecting them of uh doing more drills where they can uh can change those behaviors.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

I I guess you just uh if if you're doing more of something, you're doing less of something else.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Well, I wouldn't decompose it. It would be smuggled in, right? So like a sniper drill is an offense defense drill. It's an offense-defense counterpunching drill uh where we just smuggle in those things. So I I'd be I'd be very careful to decompose anything. But the old the old wall drill that we did forever that wasn't a bad drill. You know, that that gave them that taught them that their reaction to being overwhelmed or not being able to move their feet should be to make themselves small and cover everything up. I still think that's valid. I haven't done that in a while. I need to get back to that. I haven't done any sort of offense-defense stuff in a while. We used to warm up with a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

I'm not sure if that's why anybody wins or loses the fight.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

No, no, no, this is this is a different discussion. We we've gotten past that. We our fighter lost the other night because there were things in the entire system that need to be improved, and we will work on those. And and it goes all the way from matchmaking to road work and everything in between. Um and I'm just talking in general now. In in in our room, in any room. Like what are the things like that we can improve and and we have to take into account that we are not letting a room make all the corrections for us because we don't want that to occur. We don't want guys in a room to get wobbled and then hope to do that. Oh no. If that's what you mean, then no. Yeah. No, that's what I'm that's what I mean. It's like representative design of the practice. We don't we we can never in our room, we can never get too representative because mistakes don't put you on your ass. Now, there are a couple practices a week where I do think a mistake could put you on your ass.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

I mean, of course, something not every not everybody's doing the most perfect job, but of controlling themselves. And it's a big room, but you you do your best. We haven't had anyone go home with a headache, we haven't had anyone go home with a concussion, we haven't had to know anybody from a fight because of a head injury, there have been other practices.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Is that a good thing? I I I think so. From from an ethical standpoint, we agree. Sure. But are we robbing our guys from some level of experience by not putting them into some like if they go somewhere else, and this is what Forrest said this, and and there were two parts of it. If they spar with people they don't know who are not going to be as safe or or as caring, um, are we robbing them of some of that experience?

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Well, I think that's what you then probably want to put them into a kickboxing fighter, a Muay Thai fighter, have them go wrestle or box or do other things. Now, if you can't get them to a place to do that, another gym, then you set up some fights. You know, you fight more as an amateur, then maybe. You fight more as at doing other arts where that you get that anxiety of competing if you can't find it in another room. Gonna find another room, then sure. But I think that's the only thing. They get into exchanges in the gym, they just don't kill each other. We try to get them to be fast, you know. You they're so they get after it. They're just not. I'm not yeah, I'm not right. I'm not thinking. No, no, I know that. But what's so what they're missing is the anxiety, like the gorillas come. You go out, it's it's your people, but now it's a little bit more in the line, it's a little bit more, there's a little bit more anxiety about it. Uh kits when hits on a Thursday night, no geek, even as a coach when I that always gets you a little bit more pumped because now there's a little bit more consequence, but we know the consequence is not going to be dire. So what they're really missing is some of that anxiety to be able to train it the level we want them to train at, and they do in the room, but with also the anxiety of sort of the unknown.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Because if I do get- I want to push back a little bit. I still think there's a difference between anxiety and the pressure and chaos and consequences. I think those are still two different things.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

And I don't want them to suffer the consequence when they leave the case. No, I don't so it's the idea of consequence because you don't want them to actually suffer the consequence because there's no benefit to getting cracked and getting dropped. You can't fix that, you can't train that out of you. So now you know you're capable. Maybe you also might get a little gunshot. It's a possibility, but hopefully not. So it's a threat of consequence. Are there other, I don't know. I don't know how you get that threat of consequence without thinking that there's consequence. And that would be with someone else. So that would either be in a room or in a fight.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

I I think I think it's probably at some point guys need to experience some training with some other people. I think maybe uh we've insulated our room in some senses a little bit too much. We've had we have visitors and we let them spar and they train together, but um, there's something to be said for you go somewhere else where you are the visitor, and everyone else is looking to give you their best work. Now, I don't know where that is in Georgia. I I've spoken to I've spoken to someone further away that has a room that we'd have to travel to Augusta.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

But it's only an hour and a half, hour and 40 times.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Um but maybe we need to and or take the guys to Birmingham. Like we owe we owe Chris a trip. For sure. So we do that.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

It's a good group of dudes there. They're hopefully, you know, they get after it. You hope that there's you know no major consequence, but certainly, I mean, we just had that, you know, on Saturday. Alex was the only guy who went, but he got some good rounds and figured out, but hopefully figured some things out, but got some got to put on a little bit, and he did very well. Okay. He came back with a little bit of a shiner. But he did very well to get off the wall and you know, did his thing. So yeah, so but so on in the same vein, there's a guy who's mostly been insulated in the room, who then went into another room and performed very well.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Right, I think that's for even if it's just for confidence. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

So I don't think those reps you need. I think you need a little bit of it.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

I think those reps are just different reps. And if we're talking, you know, we talk about repetition without repetition and representative design, those reps are different than the reps you get on a on a normal basis in a room with your partners.

unknown 30:32

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

And I think we should get a few more of those. Then that's what we have to do. And not and and I don't know if that's for everyone at every stage of their development. I'm not clear, I'm not saying that.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Because I'm the guys are fighting. The guys are a fight. The guys are fighting. And if anybody else wants to come, by all means come. But as your coach, I am telling you, get your schedules situated because we're going to go do this on this day. Right. You don't have a choice in the map. Fix your shit, and we're against right. I have a hard time doing that.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

But I get it. I get it.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

They're not gonna do it on their own.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

No. No, they won't. No, but and and it's it's very tough to, you know, there were days where we had, you know, there were rooms where people could visit and and it was easier to travel, it was cheaper to travel. Travel is is difficult and expensive now. So but I think locally we can do a little bit more. You know, the the the problem is, and there are some local gyms that have groups of guys that would be fun to go train with, but we fight them. And maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe my maybe my mentality on that needs to change a little bit. Um, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Like I've always said, when people come to our room who who we could possibly fight or teammates could possibly fight, because we certainly had those people come in the room. Yes. You always or or we thought someone was a spy from another gym back in the day. We always then say, what is someone going to learn in a couple of hours? So what are those people gonna learn about you in a couple of hours?

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Right. Well, they come to us, I keep them safe. Sure. Right. So any visitor that comes to our room, I treat them like one of our own. I worry about our guys going other places, but that's why we have to go with them.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

So you know, but because that idea is an opposition of what you're trying to accomplish by having them train with other people.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

I could still step in if it gets too sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yes, but sure, yes, you could step in. So someone has to go. Someone has to go. I need you to turn that down with my guy.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

You need to rent a van and drive.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Or do you just let them take care of themselves if that's what you want? If someone's gonna put up put that kind of heat on them, then yes, the outcome could be a knockout. But then wouldn't you also then hope that the coach there would be like, hey, you guys need to but you're out you it's a fine line, but you're fine line. But you would then be getting exactly what you wanted. It's a fine line.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

It's a fine line.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

We used to have a guy in a room back in the day, you'll know who I'm talking about, where we have some of our friends come from other places and they would train and they'd get hurt, they get hit in very buttons, and cry about it in the corner. And then they didn't get knocked out, just got it put on them, and then you know very quickly he ain't the one. He can't handle this level of of of heat, so to say, for lack of better words it's too early in the morning. But he can't handle this level of heat, and it wasn't like you were gonna get knocked out, but yeah, he got touched up. So if you want guys to get that, then maybe maybe you don't go because maybe you would put the brakes on something that they're comfortable with. So you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Look, there uh this is why I wish they could get, you know, I wish they can get people always point to like the ties. They say the ties don't spar hard. I'm like, well, because they fight every week. But the Dutch spar hard because they don't fight every week. Boxers spar hard because they don't fight every week. And I I wish, and I know wish in one hand, shit in the other, but I wish they could get more frequent amateur fights. You know, and and I think if we got rid of weight cutting and we I think if the amateur sport was separated from the professional sport where we could just get a cage, get a commissioner, get a doctor, and run 30, 40 amateur fights on a Saturday in a gym, our guys all the guys could get a lot more experience. It would be a like boxing. Sure. Right? There USA boxing is able to do that because it's not it's separated from the professional sport. But in in Georgia and most places, there are amateur fights and pro fights, and they're all treated very similarly. And it limits the amount of fights that occur. Yeah, like sanctioned smokers, basically. Sanctioned smokers. And put on and and I would love that. You know, and if it was sanctioned smokers, then a ref could step in and just stop them very quickly because they're not real fights. Stop them from doing what? From just from the fights from anyone getting injured. Like you do in a gorilla cup. People are still gonna get knocked out if they're full of support. People will still get knocked out. People will still get knocked out. But the majority of amateur fights do not end being knockout. And so with bigger gloves and and matched up well, I just I know it's not gonna happen, but it would be to the benefit of everyone. And then it then I would never worry about it being done in the room or traveling to other places. Like that would be your traveling to another place.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

So you would invite local gyms to that then? Because you would you would need people to do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

I'd invite everybody. Sorry. I would invite everybody, anybody. You'd sign up, there'd be no way-ins. Look, if we can just get rid of the weight classes for a while.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Or there would be a way in and you would just match up people of similar. Yes. Yes. Like you said, like the gorilla. How many? Like they do in amateur boxing when you go somewhere, my guy's got three fights, he's doing one, your guy's got this one. How many fights? Cool. Five? Cool. How do you win? Awesome. Let's fight.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Right. And that's become harder over the years as well, because amateur boxing is not very big in this country.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

And it's certainly harder in amateurs because everyone needs to cut weight and everyone needs, you know, all this time. And uh that would certainly, I don't know, it would not change your your practice line in the room. No. And how you trained spike, but it would uh it would allow you to uh to it would allow you to deal with some of those other variables we discussed.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yeah, I think a guy could fight if weight cutting wasn't an issue and the fights were the ending of the fights were more controlled by a rep, right? There's very like a guy gets dropped, it's over. But there's a there's a one-drop rule. You know, there's a there's uh a you know, you're mounted and you're not getting out rule, or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Um They're not real fights, they could be whatever you want them to be.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

They're not real fights, but they are more, there are more pressure, there's more representativeness because you don't know the people. And you could have a couple fights versus the same person. You see that in the amateurs, like in the Midwest, the guy in the amateurs has fought the same guy three or four times over the course of some amount of months for sure.

unknown 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

But I think that would go a long way. And guys, if we weren't worrying about cutting weight, guys, guys would all walk around around the same weight, and they could fight 12 times in a year. Imagine we could get a guy's whole amateur career out of the way with 10 to 20 fights in two years. It would also tell you a little bit about the guy's durability. It would tell them a lot about themselves. You lose, and then next month you're back in instead of three or four months of rumination.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah, yeah. Just uh it is hard to it is hard to get better at competing if you're not competing. And yes, we can go do other things, so you have to add some other competitive aspects because you walk into a jiu-jitsu tournament, and that dude could very easily break you if if you get so you're that's a different level of experience. Boxing, like we became USA boxing certified, uh, I'm a USA boxing coach.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Uh wrestling tournament, just anything where there is a risk, there's a consequence. You get picked up in a freestyle tournament and drop right on your right on the bass security deck. Um because the only way to get better at competing is competing. And if you go from amateurs to pros, now now, depending on what you want to do with your pro career, uh, the winning and losing aspects become way more important. And that might limit you to how much you're gonna do it. You you might not take that fight on, you know, three three days' notice or eight days notice or one day's notice like I used to in a day. People might not do that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Um Right. So you know, so if if you know you know me as well as you do, then I I spent an entire night the other night saying, uh, why didn't we get more amateur fights? Like, why didn't we work this out? Why didn't we build this more? You know, why didn't we work through these problems? Like, why didn't like should all of our guys have 10 amateur fights before we even have a discussion? But how do we get 10 amateur fights? That could take three fucking years with the way it is.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

But is that terrible if a guy's 20 something years old and in three years now he's 23 or 24?

SPEAKER_01 39:05

No.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Do we because we could have easily told, but one of like they both really wanted to go full. So they're adults, they're 20, they're 21, 22, they're adults, or do you do a better job of of making a a young fighter be like realize, hey, you're not in a rush? Go get a job. Like that's part of it also. You know, certain people have certain pressures they got put on themselves. So then how do you explain to someone, hey, like you don't have to you're not in a rush. You could be 28, 29, and moving into your physical prime and have trained a lot and fought a lot, and do you need to rush this?

unknown 39:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

So maybe maybe they're on us as coaches as as and and but you know, it you certainly again you can't go back in time, you can only try and move forward. And then what but then what happens when you tell that person, you tell up, I don't know how you know there's no need to rush. You can get a lot more experience. Probably still even be a an amateur, you get some sponsorship and stuff. That's more about your social media presence than it is really what you're doing in the cage as a forward amateur.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Uh and if they're but we just but but we just discussed it's hard to get that experience as an amateur because there are not a lot of outlets. And most of the other things you talked about like cost money, right? So we're not gonna send guys to the IBJ JF tournaments, it's a hundred something bucks, and they're not focused on jujitsu. Like boxing, I think amateur boxing is free, right? It's pretty cheap, I imagine, if that's right. Uh hopefully Oblast has more of those kickboxing tournaments. Um I don't know, maybe we look into AAU wrestling. Is there a novice division in wrestling?

SPEAKER_00 40:50

I think for kids, but I don't know for adults.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Like remember you went to the fake ID.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

You wanted to do a summer free style tournament more.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

I did, but I was I had just graduated high school and I was 17 years old. So I was able to competed in high school, I think. Or the 18 and under. We got some fake IDs like the Cubans do and let them compete against just for the experts. Is that his wife and kids over there? Are you sure he's 20? It happened in Little League, so I don't see why. That kid looks like he's 13. I think that recently happened where some team figured out that they had signed, like they thought they were signing a 13-year-old and he was like 20 or something like that. I saw that.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

It's like could be can we all just agree that you knew and just were hoping no one else would find out?

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Like, no, I uh uh let me in that case, they didn't know it because they were signing him to a major league contract. And in major league baseball, they think that if they can sign these guys as young as possible, they can get them into their development system. Gotcha, gotcha. So they have like 10 years or something to develop. Like they got duped.

unknown 41:51

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Now the little league coach knows. Yes, okay, fair enough. Okay, yeah. He wants to win. And the high school basketball coach who has some kid who's possibly 25, uh, like from Africa, he knows. Because the guy has a wife and kids. I I I think that this is I think the the thing that ecological dynamics has really opened up for me mentally is how not just how complex it all is, but how little of it I actually control. Like as a coach. Like I used to think that I unless you want to be overbearing. Unless you want to be a very good thing. No, I don't mean that I don't mean that way. I don't mean it, I don't mean it that way. I I think that I could be like a uh more of a a taskmaster and it it still wouldn't have the effect that most coaches think they have on things. Right? Like we everything we've said is is there are all these things they have to do and and they have to get tremendous amounts of experience in in the room, out of the room, in the competition. And without that we can't control that. We can't control how they react to that. We can't control a lot of that. And so it sometimes it makes me feel like I'm not doing a good job as a coach. And sometimes it feels like like I just I have I have no control over anything. And it was easier when I I thought we could program guys, and and I thought it was easier when we could joystick guys and game plan and all those things that we can't do for real. But it gave us some semblance of thinking we were in control, an illusion of control.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

An illusion of control. So I I mean, so then maybe then maybe that's the real real battle, and and maybe that's why I take these things, I I take these things much better than you do.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

It's not just right, but it's not just that. I think the losses are our fault. Sure.

unknown 43:44

Right?

SPEAKER_00 43:44

And again, it's hard like that. You've always said it.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

And and I I don't think and I'm not saying that as a martyr, right? I'm saying like from taking a fight maybe we shouldn't have, and a weight class at a time, that's our fault. Not telling them. Hey, you do this other work or you don't fight. You keep yourself at this weight or you don't fight. Those are things we can control. So those those aspects of any loss are our fault. I was happy to hear a teammate of his say this was not a skill issue. Like he wasn't and so at least I'm happy that I think that what we are doing in the room is working. We had another person tell us that our fighter looked really good considering the gap in experience and stuff. So I'm happy about that. But I take the losses the same way they take them, right? The losses hurt way worse than the wins feel good.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Sure. And I think in in this this is a little bit of an outlier case because, and so getting back to you, you you take the losses worse than I do. I agree with you in this case that we but there are other cases where fights are just fantastic and should, should, could, and should, and don't always go the fight's way. And I still think you take those losses as best. Those are also our fault. Sure. And then and then again, so that's where you and I will differ. I will take some responsibility, but I've been on the other side. And a great deal of it still falls on me. Now you can so then in that case, I think you maybe you are being a little bit more. We want to take, we want to take how much responsibility. Because if we take the responsibility for the losses, right? If if and we take if we depending on how much responsibility is annoying me, depending on how much responsibility you decide that you want to take for the losses, then we are taking away all personal responsibility and accountability from the athlete. And I don't know that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

I don't share that with them. I don't call them after the fight and and and I'm not like, hey, that's on me. This is my personal the flip side is I take no credit for the win.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Yeah, I don't know, even if you're not sharing that with them, and obviously we don't share that with them, but uh that I don't know if I if I feel like that's fair. I've always told you I don't think it's fair to you. That's me. But of course, so that's that might just be a you problem.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

You think Kirby Smart doesn't take every loss like it's his fault that he didn't coach them well? And so that's so coach. I send coach to all of those pieces, right? It's not just what we're doing in the room. I am the coach. And so every piece that went into the win or the loss, I want I am going to I influence it. Maybe it's just through the environment, maybe it's through expectations, intentions, building those things, whatever it is. And so I acknowledge that the win is their work. And so all I can see is that where the process broke down. And if I guide the process, the environment for the room, then that's how I that's how I mentally, those are my mental gymnastics to take the losses incredibly hard and not get much out of the wins.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

Sure. And and I and I I I hear all that, but uh, it it's there are still some things, I believe, we've talked about this before. I believe that there are some things you you can't fix even in the room. So there are still pieces, I believe there are still pieces, there's still ways ways that you shape the environment that are gonna have no effect on certain aspects of a of a fighter. And so I don't think all things can be fixed in the room. Some things have to be fixed by the athletes. And I don't think there's anything you can do in the room or a different type of professional. Different type of professional, or maybe a different environment. Now, if you want to say that you shape an environment where you tell your kid to go somewhere else, then okay, then maybe you can, then maybe you can't, maybe you you you control all this.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

We have done that in the past, we have done that in the past. Suggested people go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Or get this extra coat, extra training in a different room to feel maybe an athlete whose can competence fails him in a fight, even though you see his confidence definitely doesn't fail him in the room. Maybe sending him somewhere else for some of that extra training shows him that, oh, I I don't really know this person. This could have easily been someone I fought on a Saturday or Friday night. And I I held my own and did very well and didn't fail in these other places where had they had it been a fight, maybe I would have failed myself. So if if that's you controlling the environment, then sure you have control over that. You tell your kid, hey, I really need you to go here. There's gonna be some guys that you're gonna train with at this place or that place. Yeah, you gotta drive a little bit. Yes, you have to put some of your other life on hold, but how badly do you want to figure out how to get past some of this? So go do this thing. Or if we don't change how we train, then we're going, our expectation is it's not gonna change in a fight. And are you okay with that? If you continue to be okay with that, then great. You're not getting hurt, you keep fighting, or if you're not okay with that, then this is what I need you to go do. Go do it. And then that's you controlling the entire environment. So as a coach.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Alright. We should wrap it up. Um, yeah, I think I'd give you just an hour. Um, any last words?

SPEAKER_00 49:12

No, uh, I would like you and Scotty on your next podcast to discuss what I brought up in our chat about a coach will make changes in the room based upon wins and losses. You do that, Scotty does that, you're always talking about. We just talked about it today. Should we do more of this and more of that? Should we make corrections?

unknown 49:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Steer the ship in other directions because right. So and we'll make those changes, and we know we will still have wins and losses. So we we see fights, we see things that occur, we make changes in a room to have more success, and unfortunately, we will still have failures. So we'll win and we'll lose. Right. Why has why have coaches never made a change to drilling repetition drilling? They've never made that change, yet they win and they lose. They always keep that the same, and they always keep the same, the hand pad and the bad one. They'll make all these other changes in the room, but those are two things that a coach has never changed. You and Scotty were like done. We still win, we still lose.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Okay, let me ask you a question though.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

How do we control the experiment a little bit better? Why won't other coaches control that experiment a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Why couldn't Devil's Advocate, why couldn't a coach push back on you and say, okay, you've run this experiment, you've won, and you've lost. Why haven't you put it back into some handpad work?

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Because we're still winning and losing. So if we're control if we're running an experiment, you and Scotty are running an experiment where you were just like, these are the variables, we've changed other variables throughout the year or throughout our time as coaches, we've changed the way we drill a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Okay, but you're not, you're not hearing me. It's the same thing. So but why if it that's why not? So if you're saying in a traditional room where people are shadow boxing, hitting pads, drilling, perfect technique, and then sparring, and their guys win and lose. Why would they not change why would the changes that they make over time not include looking at the shadow boxing, the hand pads, the bag work, the rope repetition? Right, that's what you're saying. But the flip side could be if we run our experiment long enough, we only are we're only four fights into this experiment as professional, we're only four professional fights into this experiment, right? If we have 20 fights as professional fights, and we're 12 and 8, then why couldn't one of the a traditional coach say, okay, you've run the experiment, you're just about 500. Why not put back in some hand pad work, some bag work, some shadow boxing? What do you have to lose? It's the same question.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Sure. But they haven't run the other side of the experiment to know if anything would get better or worse if they make that change and get rid of it. They haven't run that experiment. And yet they're probably those other places that are doing all that, they're still probably battened, batten 500 for the most part, because you're gonna have people who win and lose. Some people try it and they don't do very well.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Well, they can't magically what would they replace that work with? More life work. Well, that's not that is easier said than done.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

The experiment's being run, it can be done though.

unknown 52:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Everybody's doing all of these things everywhere, and some gyms are having even less success, but yet they're still because the champions all do this thing, right? So, but yet some places are having minimal success, I imagine, where other places are certainly having more success.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

I think you run into I think you run into a little bit. I think you run into a little bit of of what I call the the football methodology or the or the professional sports methodology, where you do all of it because if you pull things out that are traditionally done and it doesn't work, you lose your job. And so if people are running two-hour professional practices, then you are also asking them to a lot of times short shorten a practice, right? So that's a major change. You're also asking them to to you're asking them to make major changes that are difficult to make.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

And I get it. Well, an MMA where we we've certainly made those changes. Have you gotten to the point where you think that those things should be put back in? Looking at hand pad work and bag work and shadow boxing through an ecological lens, you don't believe even Dr. Guy from the other week, he was always coming up with ways that uh, because he was a baseball player back in the day, ways that you could play these things, play practice these sports that are way more alive or alive, just alive, binary, alive, uh, and and certainly way more representative. And for skill building, you and Scotty certainly don't believe that. I think alive is binary.

unknown 54:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

I think alive is binary. They're not doing then they're not creating, then those things cannot create skill transfer into the you don't believe that then those three things pad work, pad work, and shadow boxing, create transfer into the alive, most representative environment, which is fighting.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

But yes, yeah, but do they have no value?

SPEAKER_00 54:28

What's that? Do they have no value? Well, isn't it? Isn't that all no? So we can't answer that. So we run the experiment and still have success. Why not do all of it then? Because there's only so much time in a day. And if you ask every coach the thing that they would do with 15 minutes of their time, if they only had 15 minutes, they would all say you would just you would just spore more.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

But they have two hours a day. They have two sessions a day. If you go to Vegas and guys are training three sessions a day, what do you want them to do with 75% of that work? Because they're only going to spore, you're only really gonna spore three to five rounds.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Or you can make your entire practice some level of sparring. You can only do that. What's that? You can only do that for so long. Not if you're in a why we have studied. Because the body.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

The body can only take so much of that.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

So then it can't be all live MMA rounds, which isn't what the the pads are not giving you any live MMA work. So it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

No, but it's easier.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

It could be done at a low intensity.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

So then do so does low intensity work have no value?

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Low intensity realistic work has value, I think. I don't know if it does either. We're running that experiment, though, aren't we? Scotty's running that experiment.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

How do we even know if that experiment's right or wrong?

SPEAKER_00 55:49

We don't, but we know that the other experiment is neither right nor wrong.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Right. But again, point being, that experiment's being run in the NFL right now, where they do everything, and in Major League Baseball, where they do everything, and in basketball.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

What was the Jets record last year?

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Well, but they you they don't have a quarterback, so you're drawing like I just you want to take. So if you're using two types of sports that are out of the arts. No. My point is you keep talking about removing variables, and I'm saying you can't, we have not removed all the variables because the people are the variable. And so we will never, no matter what we do, unless we have every belt or a belt where we take someone from day one to day champion, this methodology, you will never be able to definitively say something is better or worse, because that person probably would have been a champion in any methodology as long as they didn't get hurt. Bars, Brian, Conor McGregor, Mirab Devishvili, Islam Mokachev, they're all champions regardless. And so I am not saying that we should add uh bad work, ad work, shadow boxes to our normal practices. I'm not saying that. I'm saying when you say to someone else maybe you could affect uh uh your win percentage by removing these things, uh I don't see a difference between them saying to us maybe we could affect our win percentage by adding those things.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Our win percentage wasn't uh was our win percentage better back in the day when we had more pad work and better.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

No, I think if you fight long enough, you're you're if you have enough people fighting enough fights, I think your win percentage ends up in a very similar place because the fighters fight. So I think that I'm not saying you could there aren't arguments to be made, but I don't know if it's I don't know if it's gonna work that way. Because they're not gonna remove all those things. And if they don't remove all those things, then there's you still have a lot of variables, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Or should they just how then how do you, if you don't remove those things, how do you press upon a person that those things aren't doing the things they think they're doing?

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Right. So that's a different that's a different question, right? You could say, why are you doing these things? What are you getting out of them? And is there a better way to do those things? Scott, um Sean Moriska has this quote that I use in our coaching course and I use when I work with people, and it's basically just try and add more aliveness where you can. And I think if if people start to add more aliveness where they can, and I've said to people, hey, uh one of our good friends, I'm going to do a workshop for them, I said, I think the best effect I can have is say to your your instructor, say to you, can we make this more alive? And maybe if we help people make their practices more alive, they will see the disconnect with pad work, bag work, shadow boxing, rote repetition, mechanics. They'll see the disconnect. But maybe we can also fill so much of their time with a live training that they don't have the energy or the time for the bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

Or they'll have maybe not in that practice, but they'll have more time to go do the road work and the bad work, uh the road work and the sprint work and the strength and conditioning, things that things that have tremendous carryover and recovery. Who says you need a two-hour practice that has an hour of this and an hour of pads and an hour of that, and an hour? I don't know why. Where did where did that come from?

SPEAKER_01 59:23

I I I think that comes from uh coach wanting to control their athletes' time. That doesn't happen in the in the professional levels, right? There's a lot in the professional levels left to the athlete to spend their time positively or negatively. I think in a college football situation, you want to have control of those kids as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

You don't want them driving around as much or doing stupid stuff.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

So I just I'm not saying I get what you're saying, but I think boiling down what you're saying is can you replace tell me what you use these tools for. Can you replace those tools with more live training? I I think that is the better path.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

And if they say they're already doing that, well, then you my personality would be, well, you can't be if you're still doing all of this. And what I'm saying is, how do you if if this is not this is not represented, this is not doing the thing you think it's doing skill development-wise. If anything, I think it might be having a counter effect because you're if you're putting these ideas into someone's head that they have these very specific ways to act against certain movements and and you're so many 10-punch combos that you're actually doing the opposite because you're actually taking away some decision-making process that needs to be used in the moment and try to shove this program that that's what the guy should do, that's what I should do now. But maybe that's not the thing. When the F am ever gonna do that and fight through 10 punches in a row.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

I thought that was I thought that was good. So is there a more efficacious padwork?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

We we we know someone who thinks there is.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

No, but I mean maybe let's ignore let's ignore our friend's pad work because I think he is one of one of very few that could do that. Is there a more efficacious padwork that more people could do that's simple and gets us closer to what we think padwork is for?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Sure. I don't I don't know. I don't know, but it might just be very simple, just throw, throw some basic combos, feel your speed, you see how fast it could be? Cool. No, no, go over here and train with this guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

What if what if one of your what if one of your fighters said, hey coach, can we get together every Friday morning, right? Because we don't have an MMA practice on Friday. Can we get together every Friday morning at 10 o'clock and work on some stuff? I'm the only one that can come at 10 o'clock and you're a 50-year-old man. Wouldn't padding yourself up and doing stuff where they're hitting the pads, not you, be the best that you could come up with?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:02

And I put on little gloves and he's basically going chess shoulders, legs, and casts.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

No, no, he's a pro he no. He he wants he wants more representative work. It's not we're not chess shoulders anymore. He's a professional fighter. He wants to work with his coach. He he feels like he needs more time working with his coach to build his skills. You're not gonna spar him every Friday morning. That that's detrimental to him. So do we pad you up and say, okay, you're sparring me, I'm throwing back at you, but you're not hitting me. You're hitting these.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Yeah, I think that's contrived.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

No, because I think that's maybe it's contrived, but it's the best case scenario. I think this is why we see so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

If you ask me as a coach, what is this? Why we just ask that? Ask the coach, what do you think this is doing? And then how could you make things more alive? And as a coach, I don't believe I would likely believe this is not doing anything for him other than maybe give him the confidence that he's doing more, and maybe benefits.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Wait, you don't think moving with a live body, throwing no, you wouldn't be whole, like you'd be having to catch his strikes. You have leg pads on, you have a body pad on. So at least there's shadow boxing in front of me, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

If I'm just attaching it. That's why I probably need gloves, have him not kill me, and at least just put things out there that he'd really clubs to. Then get the coach clubs. I'm 50. If he's throwing full speed, how really how I'm catching all that at 50? Why did I just spar him? Is it not better than nothing? Why can't I spar him?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

How is this any different? It is different. Chest and shoulders is a tool for beginners. It is not a tool for for fight development.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

It was for your 50-year-old coach who you want to beat up. This isn't this isn't doing it. I'm gonna throw at him and catch. I mean, I'm 50 years old. I don't think I'm doing that either anymore. Unless he's just and he's going really fast, he's not really throwing them. Again, we've we've lost what this is, the purpose of this is. And then I don't even know what the purpose of this is anymore. And then he's just kicking me in the leg? Because I'm not saying what you said, because I'm old.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:11

Better than nothing. Is it? Yeah, because it's opposed. It has a partner. You can still make it more alive. We would agree that there is better and worse pad work, right?

unknown 1:04:23

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

Well, you think okay. But I still don't think it's doing what it's proposed to be doing, if it's not truly representative in some way.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:32

If he's a professional, then maybe there are things that you can help him with by just being in in front of him that you can't necessarily do by watching him with someone else.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that, especially if someone who's gonna give him better looks and thinks and actually throw stuff at him.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

I don't think you I I think you need to you're being too zealotist but only because you dislike those training methods. I I'm not saying that you're right or wrong. But I think one of the things on this podcast I am very careful to do is draw any the only line I will draw is the worldview that we build this on. I will not I will not allow for any any discussion of a non-ecological theory.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

Um then when you say better there are better and worse weight old pads, sure, I could walk like a robot and just turn around like a zombie. That would be probably worse than what you're describing. But what do we then think is the benefit the fighter is gaining from that? What are they gaining? How is that transferring over into the cage? And how is it not?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

But but it's it doesn't have to transfer over to the cage.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

Everything I didn't know that. I thought everything we're trying to do is try to be as representative as possible to the thing we do is fighting the cage. We are not trying to be as representative as possible, ever. Okay. No, as possible, not representative as possible.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:57

Okay, so in this situation where It's just you and him, he doesn't have a partner, then you can be as representative as representative as possible. It doesn't have to transfer over to the cage because he has seven or eight other practices during the week where he is more representative, where he has some authority.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

Then why would he need this with me on Friday morning other than a confidence boost of working with his coach?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

Because he wants your input. He wants to move with you. A 50-year-old man? He wants you to be able to watch him and help him. So then it's a confidence builder. But it's not just a confidence builder. Ads don't have zero. Saturday morning, he's in there sparring.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

How do we know if I've made any difference?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

It only matters if he thinks you made a difference.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

It's a confidence builder.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

So don't discount that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Okay. I I'm not, but if if we're asking me as the coach, because we talk about that frequently, you ask a coach why a coach does what he does, and he says, because my coach taught me this way, and his coach taught me this way.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

Adam in England is doing it with professional or high-level amateur boxers, and Tobias in Germany is doing it with high-level kickboxers. The pad works up? Yeah. You saw on our little thread the other day we put up that that woman who was working or fighters and just pressuring them and hitting them, and just and and they said that's what their pad work looks like. I mean, sometimes we you know, we don't have a choice. You're not gonna tell them no, not gonna work with you. You would say, hey, do you have a partner you can work with? That would be better. But that's not always possible. And maybe it's not an hour. Maybe an hour starts to become it's too much. Maybe it's 30 minutes. All right, let's wrap this up. I'm gonna stop recording. I'm gonna try and stop recording.