Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast

Gregoire Maret interview

• Neil Warren • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Gregoire Maret is a chromatic player, originally from Switzerland. After studying jazz at the New School in New York, Gregoire went on to play with some of the biggest names in jazz: from Jimmy Scott to Cassandra Wilson, Pat Metheny and Herbie Hancock. Although he can also turn his hand to other genres, such as pop, funk and even opera!
In 2012 Gregoire made the first of the albums under his own name, as well as continuing to be an in-demand sideman.
Renowned bassist, Marcus Miller, said that Gregoire is "carrying the chromatic harmonica into the 21st century with prowess, passion, and creativity."

Select the Chapter Markers tab above to select different sections of the podcast (website version only).

Gregoire's website:
https://www.gregoiremaret.com

YouTube videos:
Gregoire's YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbwRBejM2dWGlEwCfmUZbWw

Playing with Toots Thielemans:
https://youtu.be/xLB74o-Gu6E


Gear:
Schertler amps:
https://secure.schertler.com/en_IT/shop/amplifiers

Earthworks SR314 microphone:
https://earthworksaudio.com/instrument/

Zoom AX1 multi-effect processor:
https://www.zoom-na.com/products/effects-preamps/acoustic/zoom-a1-four-a1x-four-multi-effects-processors


Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
and Blows Me Away Productions: http://www.blowsmeaway.com/

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SPEAKER_01:

Hi, Neil Warren here again and welcome to another episode of the Happy Hour Harmonica podcast with more interviews with some of the finest harmonica players around today. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and also check out the Spotify playlist where some of the tracks discussed during the interviews can be heard. you want lone wolf Chromatic player Gregoire Moray joins me today. After studying jazz at the New School in New York, Gregoire went on to play with some of the biggest names in jazz, from Jimmy Scott to Cassandra Wilson, Pat Matheny and Herbie Hancock. In 2012, Gregoire made the first of the albums under his own name, as well as continuing to be an in-demand sideman. Hello, Greg Walmare, and welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Firstly, we'll talk a bit about your background. You're originally from Switzerland, and you grew up just outside Geneva.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly, in a little town called Chancy, which is the last village before the border to

SPEAKER_01:

France. So you're French-speaking. French-speaking. So I had a friend from Switzerland and you guys speak five languages or something, don't you? Incredible in Switzerland.

SPEAKER_02:

Really three. And then there's one dialect that very few people do speak. So we speak French, Italian and German. And of course, we do speak English. There's another dialect called Romance, which very few people do speak in the part of

SPEAKER_01:

Switzerland called the Grison. A lot of people met that comparison between languages and music. What do you think about that? Is there anything in that? I actually compare more music to

SPEAKER_02:

mathematics. I feel there's some, and I think there's a lot of connection to that. I do believe that music is sort of the international language in a sense. It's one of those things that we all relate to and have some kind of emotional connection to, and it's easy to just get into a world and kind of having a great with either a group of people or just another musician. And it can be being part of the audience or the fellow musicians sharing the stage with somebody else. So that's, yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

that's real special. And so you've got a Swiss father and an American mother.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, my

SPEAKER_01:

mother was born and raised in New York, my father in Switzerland, Geneva. And your father was a jazz musician. I think that's what got you first interested in music from a young age.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, still is really. I mean, he retired because he's a doctor. He was a doctor, but he's still playing music. My brother's a musician as well, and he's also a pilot. He's flying planes. So we all are musicians in the family. What instrument did your father play? He played banjo.

SPEAKER_01:

He still does. And my brother plays a vibraphone and percussions. Your father was a jazz banjo player, was he?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but more traditional jazz, more like the early New Orleans style of music. And my brother played more modern as well as kind of traditional, more towards the

SPEAKER_01:

modern part of jazz. And so what was the music scene like around Geneva? Was that something you could draw on?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, as a young musician and a student, it was good. Thanks to my father, I met a lot of musicians early on. And then as I went to high school, I met more people. And then I became really serious about music. So that's when I met a lot more musicians. Some of them were very, very good teachers and really gave me great advice. After that, I had to go. I had to find something and somewhere else to try to grow. And that's what actually some of my best teachers told me. They were like, listen, you're young. You should just try to see what's going on out there, especially in New York. And then you can always come back. You'll see, you'll decide. And that's what I did. I went to study. I came here in New York to study and I never left, basically. Started having opportunities here, playing with like West African musicians and Latino musicians like Tito Puente, Patato Valdez. And then eventually I just decided to stay because there was just a

SPEAKER_01:

whole lot going on and I started working here. So you started playing the harmonica relatively late at the age of 17, yeah? So were you playing other instruments until that age?

SPEAKER_02:

I actually started as a kid to sing very early. I only stopped singing when my voice changed. Thanks to that, I started really having good ears. I could really kind of hear just about anything. And when I picked up the harmonica a bit later, it was not easy, but it I moved kind of quickly through the different stages of playing the instrument because I could hear very, very well. And that's something that I developed by singing a lot as a kid. And also as a kid, I was playing a little bit of drums and a little bit of guitar. But I stopped after two years. The teachers I had, I just never felt were connected to the same kind of music I was trying to play. Just practicing scales, just to practice single scale was a downer for me, at least, you know, early on. I wanted to play tunes and they were all telling me, no, no, you need to practice scales first. And I was like, man, okay, I'll practice some scales, but I would love to play something, a melody, you know. It wasn't really what they were teaching. So I stopped. And then eventually when I picked up the harmonica, I just, I was self-taught. So I started practicing. just playing melodies, blues and stuff like that. And it was just exactly what I wanted to play. And then eventually I realized that, yeah, I need to learn scales too. And then I had an understanding of why I needed to play and practice scales, you know, after

SPEAKER_01:

having learned a couple of tunes. And so did you start playing the chromatic first or did you start playing the diatonic first?

SPEAKER_02:

I started to play the diatonic when I was about 15. I loved it. I never thought I was going to play chromatic. I felt actually no connection or to chromatic harmonica. My parents gave me one for my birthday and it felt so different. It sounded so different. I was like, I just left it somewhere and never touched it until when I wanted to change my major in school, in high school. I wanted to change from languages to music. And the only way they would accept me was if I was picking up a quote-unquote chromatic instrument. So I asked them if it was okay for me to play chromatic harmonica and they accepted. At the end of the year of training, I had to be able to pass an exam, and I played like a classical piece, a Chopin piece on the chromatic harmonica. And then after that, I started playing in an ensemble at school with other young musicians, and they all wanted to play jazz. I was like, well, yeah, let's try to play some tunes on jazz, and I'll start playing the chromatic a bit. And then I just became completely passionate about trying to play this instrument, and I never went back really to the diatonic harmonica.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

yeah it's really interesting to say that so you were in a way you were kind of forced to the chromatic yeah you know most harmonica players play the diatonic yeah it's more accessible it's easier to play you know you're kind of in one key and what would you say to people who play the diatonic about maybe you know who might be interested in playing the chromatic some of the advantages of the chromatic

SPEAKER_02:

the first thing that's good if you already are have some skills on the diatonic harmonica is pick up like a regular chromatic and still play the blue like a D minor blues, which is like the standard thing that's done a lot with harmonica players. After that, once you feel like good playing that, pick up another key playing the blues, you know, stay with like simple structures like the blues. If you, if the person, whoever is the harmonica player is comfortable with that form and start playing in different keys. So with the same chromatic harmonica, of course. So it's like you started playing in D minor. You now can also play kind of in G, in C. And then you try to go to F and maybe eventually B flat. And you know what I mean? And you go to different keys and then start to see what you can do on the harmonica. It's going to become more and more challenging as you go to all the 12 keys. But it's a really good way to get really familiar with the instrument. To do that, it's best to take a really simple form or a simple tune that you're very, very comfortable playing and try to expand playing that in all 12 keys rather than just learn different tunes that are comfortable. complex, hard to play and try to accomplish that in keys that are already also challenging.

SPEAKER_01:

And, I mean, what about the different, you know, sort of music you can play between the diatonic and chromatic? Obviously, a lot of people are interested in playing blues initially, and that's what gets people interested into the harmonic. And then they might expand to start getting interested in other sorts of music. And I think that's where the chromatic can come in, can't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you get Brendan Power, you know, who's like the big Irish music connoisseur who plays that very well in the chromatic. But you can just play just about anything. So... I would start with the blues. Then you can go into other songs that are relatively simple, certain folk songs, certain country songs, and then pop songs. You know, just kind of learn the melody, eventually try to learn the chord changes, and start trying to have an ability to hear what are the notes that are changing through the harmonies so you can kind of play those on the instruments. And the good thing is to really always consider keep that same harmonica, chromatic harmonica, maybe like the usual one is to play a C chromatic harmonica. And off of that, just try to get into different keys. So if you go to F, there's just one flat. If you go to G, there's one sharp. So it's not too hard. Then you go to two sharps with D and two flats with B flat. You can also play the relative minor. So like G minor, for instance, like Autumn Leaves is played most of the time in G minor. And it's a great song to learn because it's a very simple song, simple form. You start with the melody, of course, which is simple, and then eventually go with the changes and try to understand how they go and eventually see and hear your way through the song and try to improvise. So there's a lot of ways to improvise. Somebody like Richie Virack was talking about a lot was motivic development, which is just to take a motif. like two notes, three notes, and develop that through the song instead of just playing random ideas that are not connected. You want to try to tell a story when you play a song. Also, you can also always connect to the melody because it's really all about that melody. So you can kind of do variations on the melody. That's also a good way to start improvising.

SPEAKER_01:

So you moved across to New York when you were, I think, 19, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

even earlier than that, I think 18, yeah. Yeah, so you went to study at the New School in New York, which is that a dedicated jazz school?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's a good jazz school. And it was really great at the time I was there. It was a lot of great students and a lot of great

SPEAKER_01:

teachers. So New York is kind of the epicenter of the jazz scene these days. Is that how you see it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot going on all around the world, you know. It used to be where New York was sort of the only place. But already, if you look all around the U.S., each town has a sound and a type of music that they really became famous for. But then if you look all around the world, there's also some of that in the rest of the world as well. So New York is sort of like the place, right? But it's not the only place now. There's just a lot of players all around. And that's the thing that's really exciting is that when I get to travel, I get to meet other musicians from different

SPEAKER_01:

places in the world. So you were in, obviously in the school in New York, but you were playing out in New York with your little chromatic harmonica, playing jazz against all these very loud saxophones. And so how was that when you were trying to find your way in New York and how was it received as a chromatic harmonica player?

SPEAKER_02:

It was quite challenging, you know, but it was challenging all the way from being in school. I was the only chromatic player. Some teachers were really excited about having a musician playing the chromatic harmonica. Some others just didn't care much. And I had to kind of show all of them that I could really play. And eventually, the same thing happened being on the scene in New York, like starting to play in different places, sitting in different bands, with different bands, or jamming with different people. And I had to really convince... people through my playing that I could really be respected as a musician. Because eventually, if you really look at it, is that if I play, for instance, with somebody like Pat Metheny, Pat has the choice to hire anybody, not just, of course, harmonica players. So if it is going to be a saxophone player, he's going to hire the best. So I'm basically in competition with every musician. So it's the same thing with Herbie. Herbie doesn't hire me just because he needs a harmonica player. He hires me because he can really relate to what I'm doing and he feels that I really play the music to the best of what it can be played. I'm sure there's people and musicians that have experienced different things. A person was really specifically wanting to hire a harmonica player, and that's been most of their career like that, where they just happen to be there and play great and be hired because somebody wanted a harmonica player. This is not the case for me. For me, the situation was totally different. It was people wanted something different, maybe. suddenly they just discovered what I was doing and were like, well, this is quite unusual. But at the same time, with this unusual instrument and he's just approaching the music the way I want it to be approached. You know, I'm excited playing with him because we're always trying to go beyond ourselves playing this music. So that's my experience, really. But even with vocalists, even when I was playing with Cassandra Wilson or Diane Reeves or, you know, Jimmy Scott, it wasn't just about playing the harmonica. It was about the music and the fact that I knew how to approach their music and I could really relate to them as vocalists. I could help them and do everything I could to make the music better. I do believe that, yeah, if I had played another instrument, I don't think it would have necessarily changed a lot. It was really about just my voice, in a sense, that happened to exist with the harmonica. That's something I talked to Toots Dillmans a bit, you know, and he actually completely agreed. That was his opinion as well. That's the way he looked at himself. He was like, I'm a musician first, and I happen to play the harmonica.

SPEAKER_01:

So let's talk through some of your great recordings you've done with many different people. So I think one of the first people you had success with was Jimmy Scott on the Holding Back the Years album in 98. So you started gigging with him around New York.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a beautiful story. Maybe they could hire me for a song or two. I came and recorded that with Jimmy Scott as well. And Jimmy Scott was really excited and he thought that we should stay in touch and eventually maybe play together again. And we completely lost touch. Eventually, I was able to find him again. I went to a concert of his and this time he gave me his number and we kept in touch. He eventually invited me to go check out one of his concerts at the Iridium in New York. And Jimmy was there at the bar. And he looked at me and said, hey, man, where were you yesterday? We were waiting for you. And he was like, OK. I mean, we're about to play in about five minutes. Jump on stage, man. Basically, what happened, he really wanted to see how I was handling pressure. So he put me on the spot. And I did well enough that he was like, OK, you got it. Come back tomorrow. And I came back

SPEAKER_01:

the next day. and I had the gig. And then you played with him then for five years on and off, yeah?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, exactly. I played with him for a few years, recorded a few records, learned a lot, learned how to play a ballad.

SPEAKER_01:

And then, yeah, so running through 99, you played on the Jack Terrison album, What Is It?, which is a big success.

SPEAKER_02:

I knew Jackie, of Jackie, I met him actually at the Montreux Jazz Festival maybe a year or two before. We didn't really stay in touch much, but eventually he was also trying to expand his trio and do something different. He asked me to come and join the band he was putting together, and we toured for about a year together after recording that record. We had a great time. I mean, also, same thing.

SPEAKER_01:

I learned a lot, and it was great. And then in 2002, I'll probably get the name wrong, but did you win the Grammy for the album Cookie by Anthropological Mixtape with... Michelle Nogueira.

SPEAKER_02:

I

SPEAKER_01:

don't even know.

SPEAKER_02:

She may have won a Grammy for this record, but I didn't get a Grammy. I did get a Grammy with the Pat Metheny group

SPEAKER_01:

That's an interesting, different style of music.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, she's just this beautiful musician that just explores and finds her own sound. It's really hard to categorize what she does, which I think is great. It's music. And that's how I relate to any sort of music. Is it good music or bad music? Or is it some music that I connect to that I want to play? Or is it music that maybe is good, but I don't feel any emotional connection to?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and then Pat Metheny, you played with him uh and on the uh and then he did win a grammy for sure on the the way up album for best contemporary jazz album in 2006 And then you went on to tour with Pat Muffini for some time as well. So how was that? It was great. I mean, same thing. I learned

SPEAKER_02:

a tremendous amount about music and how to play and what to play and when not to play. And it was amazing. Yeah, we did about a year of touring nonstop. Like I think we stopped for the entire year

SPEAKER_01:

of touring. I think we had three weeks off. And so then you did an album, the duo with the Sonorios album, 2007 with Andy Milne, a pianist, which again, I think the chromatic and harmonic and piano, there's a lot of great albums like that. Obviously Toots did one with Bill Evans. So that combination with the piano is really special, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I first started playing with Andy Milne, who's part of the M-Bass movement that was started by Steve Coleman. And first I joined Andy Milne's band called Dap Theory. but we toured extensively in the U.S., very little in Europe. When we were playing, Andy always wanted to take a moment in the set to have just this duo setting, and me and him would just play a song. Most of the time, we'd play Con Alma of Dizzy Gillespie. We thought, both thought, that it was kind of special, like it was a really nice moment in the set. We decided eventually that we wanted to record something together. So we came with some material, but not enough to cover an entire album. we decided that the other half of the album was going to be completely improvised so half of the record is completely improvised i'm talking about we don't even talk about what key we're gonna play we just start and we wanted to see what would come up eventually you know we did some stuff that was that was really interesting because it just pushes you to listen to To an extent that you would not even think of unless you're in a situation where you have no idea what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Obviously, you went on to play with Herbie Hancock, which is a tremendous gig to get. I mean, probably the pinnacle of a sort of jazz gig in these days. So how did that come about? I was playing, I think, with Marcus Miller at

SPEAKER_02:

the time. Herbie had heard of me for a long time, but we never played together really, but he knew of me. And I was probably his biggest fan, and I still am. And then eventually, I was part of Marcus Miller's band, and he was doing a lot of crews at the time. And he invited Herbie to be part of one of the crews that he was the musical director. So they did like a special set where Marcus Miller was playing bass, and Pucci Bell, Marcus' drummer, was playing drums. Herbie was into having me come and sit in. So I came and sat in, and he was... He was like, man, it's been a long time coming, but we're going to do a lot together. So eventually he called me. I started playing with him. And so

SPEAKER_01:

you toured with him for two years?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I did a few different tours. The first tour I did, like real tour I did with him, was in Europe. And we toured for about, I think, what, four months straight? Just Europe. We left in September and came back for Christmas.

UNKNOWN:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

And a song I've got of you playing with him is possibly his most famous song, which is Cantaloupe Island. So are you getting that solo on that one? I know that's a song that you really love. It must have been special.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

extremely challenging to play with Herbie not in the best way possible I'm just saying you can never just assume things are going to be one way because they're always going to be different but it's the best thing that I always dreamt of you know like that was really just being on the edge

SPEAKER_01:

but in the best

SPEAKER_02:

way possible

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah I mean where do you go from playing with Herbie Hancock you went on I think you played also with Elton John and Sting at the concert for the Rainforest. Yeah. You recorded a song with Sting as well, did you?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I went in the studio with Sting for a while. It actually was for his album. Is it called My Ship? Something like that. But I don't think that whatever I recorded or the songs that I recorded made it to the record. But it was

SPEAKER_01:

nevertheless a great experience. yeah so i mean some great names as you say uh you play with and then and then you decided to to try and uh you know be the band leader rather than rather than the sideman and you made your first album your first as a band leader in 2012 called gregoire moray yeah so yeah tell us about that one yeah you had quite a lot of guests on there didn't you including suit sealmans of course and uh cassandra wilson and so yeah how about about that one and putting your first album together

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it was a long time coming. I knew I was going to do an album eventually of my music and the sort of vision I had of the sort of music I really wanted to present. I embarked on a long journey of trying to make that happen. It took quite a while. Federico González Peña, who produced and co-wrote some of the songs really helped me tremendously for that so we really spent a huge amount of time working on some the pre-production on certain songs and the post-production on certain songs because it's like two suites on a record so it's a bunch of songs that are just kind of regular tunes either compositions of mine or standards like The Man I Love and stuff like that there's also two suites one is called Children's Suite and the other one is called Crepuscule that we worked on for weeks I mean literally like all day just getting the right sounds getting the right everything. So it was a labor of love, I would say. It was a great experience. I had this kind of vision where I wanted to kind of fulfill something quite big, you know, musically, because I had the chance to play with so many people and they were helping me to grow musically. So I wanted to go into something that I felt was bigger than just playing just tunes or playing. So that's why I went into this format. I was touring on and off with Cassandra Wilson for about, what, 10 years so it was very natural for me to call her and be a special guest on this record

SPEAKER_00:

one day maybe two

SPEAKER_02:

Also ask Mark Keeble of Take Six to also sing on it, and Marcus Miller also, the guest on the record. It was just one of these things where I just felt like it was a way to kind of look back, look forward, and also embracing my past to make something special happen with it.

SPEAKER_01:

yeah it's a great album I've been listening to it a lot over the last couple of days and it really has that sense of of building through the album because of those two suites that you mentioned there doesn't it you know you got the kind of three songs or so on those two suites which really you know it kind of develops through the album which is really nice

SPEAKER_02:

yeah thank you yeah it was but it was an intentional thing like I really wanted to get those songs I wanted to give at least for those two songs like a really long format where I could develop something over an extended amount of time. And I could really express the full range of expression I wanted to get into.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And so you composed those songs yourself then?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So the middle part is I wrote. And then the intro and the outro, both Federico and I wrote together. And he, for instance, the intro and outro of Creepy School Suite, he literally played all the parts. Like, you know, we played, there was percussions, there was all kinds of keyboards. And

SPEAKER_01:

he just kind of did most of it, which was amazing. And I understand you do a lot, you're composing at the piano now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm kind of old school, you know, with the composing process. So I have a piano at home and I start writing on piano most of the time and I'll write down the idea on paper, like music paper. The reason why I do that is... I could go in to try to create demos, but I really enjoy the creating process when people don't hear a demo and they just get a lead sheet and they try to create something out of that. Sometimes it goes really in a different direction than anything I would have imagined. And it's a great surprise for me. That's something I really embrace in life. I love. Sometimes I feel it's too different. I'll guide them a bit to be like, okay, let's try again, but let's go in this direction instead. You know, most of the time is something is surprising and exciting because it's kind of something different than what I could have imagined. And it's better in a sense, like I can just go beyond, you know, having just full control of everything all the time because everything has been already demoed and everybody's just

SPEAKER_01:

trying to imitate the demo, you know. So are you quite an accomplished piano player nowadays? Is that something you've developed?

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, not at all. I can write music on piano, but I'm

SPEAKER_01:

not at all a pianist, you know. and then so then your next solo well your next album as a band lead it was the album wanted which you released in 2016 so that was sort of an album

SPEAKER_02:

where i wanted to play songs that i could now the whole album was actually almost the antithesis to to the previous one which was highly produced highly pre-written before we went in the studio and recorded parts you know it was this one was like i wrote everything on lead sheets gave everything to the musician never told them anything and we started recording. And out of that, I worked a lot in post-production, you know, but there was no pre-production at all. And I did that intentionally. I really wanted to see what they were going to create. But the other aim with this record was trying to get some music that would be sort of the music that when I first started to be really passionate about music as a teenager, I would say, and really wanting to become a musician, what kind of music I was listening to, what kind of music I really wanted to listen to and check out and try to play and all that stuff. I know that record, if it had been coming from another artist, that record would have been a record that I would have just listened to over and over and over again back then. So it was sort of that, the idea behind this record, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and of course you do the very famous standard blue and green, which you do this really interesting thing when you're playing in unison. I think, is it Chris Potter on the saxophone with you? It's a bass clarinet, yeah. A bass clarinet, yeah. It's got this really unusual sound when you're playing in unison with a bass clarinet, yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

That actually came from Michelle when I played on Anthropologie's record, Cookies. She had me double a melody with Marcus Miller on bass clarinet. And I always thought that I was quite unusual and really new and fresh, but really beautiful. And I was like, I'm going to have to do that again one day. And eventually when I did this arrangement, I thought it would be a perfect

SPEAKER_01:

opportunity to have this opportunity. And then another album you did was Harp vs. Harp in 2019, where you played with a very famous harp player called Edmar Castaneda.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, Edmar is my amazing harpist. He comes from the Colombian tradition, you know, Colombian-Venezuelan traditional harp. They have a whole different way of playing the harp in South America. So it's a complete different approach. It's much more rhythmical, you know. They just... take it to a different level. They have all this complex rhythm, both in Colombia and Venezuela. He comes from Bogota, and he's just an amazing harpist. So it was kind of similar to the thing that happened with Andy Milne. He invited me to join his band, which was a nonet at the time, for some gigs and some recordings that we did. He would always take also a moment during the set where... him and I would do a duo together, and it sounded beautiful. So he thought that we should try to record something together eventually. So we did. After a few gigs that we did together, we decided to try to record something, and this record came from that.

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

We've been doing quite a few dates together, so it's been really quite exciting. Before, obviously, this pandemic, it's

SPEAKER_01:

been quite exciting to play live with him as well. Getting a lot of energy comes from that harp, doesn't it? It sounds great, yeah, and it's a good combination. And then you did another album with Pat Metheny in 2020 from this play, so you're still playing with him as well?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so he called me to record his latest record. We've always kept in touch, you know, but I didn't get to play with him after the way up. But yeah, he thought that that sound, his voice, my sound, I guess, was needed on this record. So I recorded this thing. It was great. Great experience, always. I mean, I love Pat's music. It's always so incredible.

SPEAKER_01:

And then another album you as band leader called Americana, which is obviously Americana music. So what made you want to release an album of Americana music?

SPEAKER_02:

That's an album that we... conceptualized with Roman Cullen, the pianist on the record, something that we created together. We wanted to do and create music together, but we were not sure what we were going to do. We knew there was going to be something melodic. I love melodies, okay? I just, this is my thing. I love to play out. I love to play modern. I love all that stuff. but down deep when it comes back to the essential things, it's

SPEAKER_01:

all about melodies. I think that's what the chromatic harmonica is very strong at as well, isn't it? That melodic playing.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely, but also I feel that nowadays, not necessarily talking about harmonica, but nowadays there's just not that many people who really can play melodies. I mean, there are some, but not that many. A lot of people can play great, but they just don't really play melodies. So for me, it is down deep, just all about melody. So we started voicing this wish of being able to kind of really get into melodies, you know, pretty, pretty songs. We looked at different songs that we could play whether it was going to be pop or it was what kind of we were not exactly sure and then eventually we decided that this kind of style of music Americana was going to be kind of the perfect vehicle for that now I relate to that because I I've played with Cassandra Wilson for 10 years and inside of her world that style is present you know it's not she doesn't just do Americana it's not that she's a jazz singer but she sings folk songs she sings songs that kind of in the whole Americana style. She sings sometimes pop songs. And I felt really, really connected to that. I knew that I always felt connected to that playing with her. And so it was very natural for me to do it again, to

SPEAKER_01:

do my

SPEAKER_02:

take

SPEAKER_01:

on it. Yeah, and the song on there, Brothers in Arms, which is a song I really love. It sounds great on the harmonica.

UNKNOWN:

piano plays softly So,

SPEAKER_01:

And also Wichita Lion Man as well, which you wouldn't

SPEAKER_02:

expect. Well, Wichita is the song that I used to play with Cassandra Wilson for 10 years. And I mean, she was obviously singing it. And then there was always a moment where she would kind of like look at me and I took a chorus. And for 10 years, we were literally performing the song every night. And I always thought, okay, this song is a treasure. Whenever I'll do something with that kind of

SPEAKER_01:

music, I'll have to record this song. Yeah, and I think, again, that really shows that melodic strength, particularly with the chromatic harmonica, it's so good at it. It's great at playing melodies like that, and it sounds so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's a song, if you look, it was created back in the early 60s or something like that, I'm not sure exactly the year it was created, but it's quite modern, the way it's composed. It's a song that keeps going back between two keys, if you really look. It's between B-flat major and D major, which is like, wow, It's basically giant steps, but in the most melodic way. So it's kind of really, really exciting and fresh. That song is a big deal for me because I've learned a lot from playing this song, from the way it's voiced. Because I always played with guitar players, very few pianists. So the way they were voicing those chords was another sound that became

SPEAKER_01:

a big part of my musical world. So yeah, you've played some brilliant people and a great long listener. You're playing as a sideman. So what about that difference between playing the sideman and the band leader? Which do you prefer? I

SPEAKER_02:

love both, you know, and I wanted to keep on doing both. Not only just going 100 days out of the year on tour as a sideman, but I still enjoy being a sideman. It's a totally different philosophy and way of looking at music. First of all, the thing that's identical is that you're here for the music and making sure the music sounds as good as possible. And that has to be beyond any musician on stage, whether it's me or... We try to be bigger than just... Like trying to create something much bigger. So that's the aim. And we all have this aim. That's the first thing. But then when you're a leader, you're the one responsible for literally everything from bringing the tunes, making sure the arrangements come really the best for that. kind of group, whatever group you present, making sure you kind of create the material that's going to be the best for the group that you have, or to put together the best group for the kind of material that you write. You know, that's the big thing. So that's a different kind of mentality. When you're a sideman, you don't think about that. You just show up at the gig or at the recording session and just make sure that whatever they have in mind with you is even better than whatever they imagine.

SPEAKER_01:

So, talking about sidemen, you added a documentary made about you by Frédéric Balif.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that was like the early days, actually. It was during the time I was playing with Andy Milne and Charlie Hunter. He's a high school friend of mine. We went to high school together. And he saw how passionate I was with music before I left for the U.S. And then eventually we reconnected when I was in the U.S. in the early stage. So it's right around 9-11. that he recorded this whole documentary. So he saw a lot. He saw me struggle, he saw me go through great moments, beautiful moments of music, but he also saw me go through the whole period of 9-11 where there was no work. It was just an intense moment in my life.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a French-language film, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, actually, there's two versions. There's one in English, I guess, with subtitles, and then another one in French, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, moving on a little bit, we talked through your career there. You played lots of different styles of music, as you said there, isn't it? You probably get categorized as a jazz musician, but I know you like to play punk, you played funk as well, didn't you? You played a little bit of classical as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I had an opportunity once to play contemporary, I guess classical music or whatever you want to call it. It was an opera composed with a chromatic part in it. It was the story of Alice in Wonderland, composed by the composer Wu Sung-Ching, Chinese composer. So they called me in Geneva to do this, and I did. That was a great experience, you know, because it was so different from anything I've ever done before and after. Playing like really completely written music and having to perform exactly the same every night for a couple of months. But it was great, you know, but it was one of those things where the way she wrote the music was not quite correct for the harmonica. I guess she didn't really know the instrument well. So I had to put together like a bunch of harmonicas, like stacked up to be able to play whatever she wrote because she wanted me to play intervals, but it was not, it was okay. Like certain intervals would be, for instance, in the key of E major and then the other one with C or, you know what I mean? So I couldn't just use one chromatic harmonica for it. I had like five or six harmonicas stacked up in different keys, chromatic, and I would play the thing jumping from one to the next And that was the only way I could do it. It was great. I had the pleasure to play with a children's choir during that time. Every night, it was

SPEAKER_01:

quite special. So we touched on two sermons. You had some contact with him when you were younger. He gave you some tips and such, didn't

SPEAKER_02:

he? Yeah, I mean, when I first started playing the chromatic harmonica, one of the musicians that was sort of my mentor back then, named Antoine Auguet, was playing in a big band in the next city next to Geneva. And they had this perfect concert or series of concerts that they were going to do with Toots Tillman. And he was like, man, I'm about to go play with Toots. I need to introduce you to him because that's the guy. And I was like, man, that's incredible. I went to the concert and after the concert, he did introduce me to Toots. And Toots put me on the spot. I was cool. It was like play. I got my harmonica, tried to play a blues back. I got completely lost. I was 17 at the time. I just complained in front of him. I was just too starstruck. It was just too much. But somehow he saw and heard something. So he was like, you know what? Come with me. Let's take a walk. So we left the place where he performed and we walked in the city and he was like, listen, I heard you. Now, if you like what I play, what I do, you should take it as an example and eventually you should detach yourself and find your own path musically. And that's really... what you should do. You shouldn't just try to copy me. You should take it and grow out of it, you know. And that's basically what I've been trying to do my entire life since that day. It was like being obviously really influenced by him and Stevie Wonder, of course. Out of that, try to kind of find my own path musically. I think I was really fortunate because I got to meet people who forced me also sort of like to do that. Like they give me no choice. Like Steve Coleman, for instance, when I got to play with him, there was no way I could really just play whatever Toots or Stevie were playing on the harmonica. I had to come up with something different that would work with his

SPEAKER_01:

music that was much more angular, you know. Did you spend a lot of time, you know, working out Toots solos and things like that?

SPEAKER_02:

no I did a few of them of his but not a whole lot of time because early on I got to meet him during this time when I was 17 quite young and I knew already that I had to I had to try to find something else I mean I was definitely very influenced by him and love all his stuff but I wasn't somebody who was just learning every single solo of his and trying to play all his solos and everything I've learned probably two or three and after that I just forced myself to learn other things. So I would try to check out Freddie Hubbard, for instance. I learned Ready for Freddie, Bird Light, you know, the blues on Ready for Freddie, exactly the way Freddie played it. So it sounded like an effect on the trumpet. I played also Herbie's, some of Herbie's solos. It was the same thing. It felt like it was either an effect on the piano or like a keyboard. So I just did a lot of that where I was just really trying to really understand other musicians and other instrumentalists rather

SPEAKER_01:

than just copy toots. And particularly a jazz, I think it's very important to do that, isn't it? There's not that many jazz harmonica players, so it's really important, particularly you go and learn from other instruments as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so a question I ask each time, if you had 10 minutes to practice in the day, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?

SPEAKER_02:

I would come back to playing scales and arpeggios and the sound. So I would do long tones, like something like that, like... And really have the sound really steady, like not just going through. First, without vibrato, you know, just really straight. Just to have a real control of the sound. And then eventually you can venture into playing vibrato and all that stuff. The other thing that I would do is playing really soft. But with a lot of projection. So you hear, you heard me, and it's very soft. At the same time, it's very... clean, precise, You have control of the note from the very beginning until the very end. It's not something that's just kind of going all over the place. It doesn't have to be a long tone that stays playing that long forever. It just can be relatively short. As long as it's really controlled, it has to be controlled. That's what you're practicing. That's the first thing I would do. The other thing I would do is literally arpeggios. That kind of stuff, which is really, really actually important for just articulation and then I would just play like even just major scales in all 12 keys or you can do it over two octaves and then eventually you can kind of do it fast that already with these exercises you have a lot now if you have all that stuff together and you can sort of practice That's great. So already a lot. And then if you had another 10 minutes, I would kind of, whatever, choose a song. It doesn't have to be complex. Whatever song you want to play and try to really play, play the melody sounding really good. Each note sounds great. And the last thing that I would say is it's really beneficial to practice with a metronome. So whether it's a tune or even those exercises that I just showed, just try to practice with a metronome because time in jazz is

SPEAKER_01:

essential. You've got to be able to have good time. It's interesting. So you're still working on those more basic things now, are you? I

SPEAKER_02:

always

SPEAKER_01:

go back to

SPEAKER_02:

that. The very complex stuff, I'll work on it for a while and then I'll go into something else and I'll just explore different things, different types of Scales, different types of everything. The thing that I never change are those basic exercises. First, start slow. Don't start playing fast. Fast comes later. Fast is not as important as sounding great. What you want is to sound great. Each note sounds great. Each note is a pure treasure. It sounds so good. I mean, when you listen to other instrumentalists, when they play their instruments, it's like that. Every time they play something, it's like, wow. Listen to Keith Jarrett, you know, every time he plays a note, it's ridiculously beautiful. Listen to Herbie, listen to Pat Metheny, every freaking note he's playing on the guitar is perfect. Always like that sense of perfection. Already first with the sound, the tone, and then eventually you get to, if you want to play faster or whatever, more complex, you can. But there's nothing wrong with playing very, very simple as long as it's beautiful. That's going to be much more effective and emotionally interesting and powerful. and playing fast.

SPEAKER_01:

Talking on to the last section now, which is talking more about that gear and the gear that you use. So we'll talk about your signature harmonica, which is the Suzuki G48, one of which I own, by the way, and it's a very fine harmonica. So this came about in 2005. I think you were over in Japan. So tell us the story about how you came to help create the G48. I

SPEAKER_02:

met the people at Suzuki in Japan when I was on tour with Pat Metheny. So they would basically... give me some instrument to try. Honestly, at the time, those instruments were not good, but they were leaking all over the place. As soon as I had to play something a little bit more challenging, a bit faster, or just tricky technically, it was just not happening. So I was telling them, listen, I like parts of the instrument, but there's other parts that really need a lot of work. And if you're willing to work together with me, I'd be happy to get this thing improved with you. They were really excited about the idea. They had a really young team in the factory at the time. We were all about the same age. So we became really good friends. They were all really, really all about trying to create great instruments. They just needed some input. I started giving them the input I could give them, and they were really aggressive in trying to make it a much better instrument. So, for instance, the entire time I was on tour with Pat Missini in Japan, which was about three weeks, I don't know, maybe a month, it was literally like they would give me a harmonica, I would try it, and I'd be telling them via email, like, listen, okay, this and this is not quite right, you know, you could maybe improve it like this, like that. Maybe the next day or the following day I had a different harmonica. So I would try again and I'd be like well this is much better or this is you know whatever and this could change and get improved better as well and again I would get another instrument the next day I don't know how many harmonica I tried And eventually what we did is that I would try them for longer, not just a day, but this time maybe a couple of weeks and then give them some feedback. And they would send me another instrument and we would do that. We did that for a long time. And eventually they came with the wish of making my signature model because I helped them with their basic instrument to make them much better. And they were like, maybe we can make an upgraded version, like something that is really you. And I was like, I would love that. That would be great. So we worked actually about four years to make that harmonica together. Same thing. They would send me prototypes and I would just play and try it again and tell them, no, this is not quite good. And until it was perfect. And I remember very, very vividly when Perfect Instrument arrived. It was when I started that tour with Herbie in Europe during the rehearsal. I received two harmonicas. I was just like, this is perfect. And I tried them for three months, four months, whatever. And I was like, they still are in tune. They are beautiful. That's it. That's what I want to play.

SPEAKER_01:

Very fine, very fine chromatics. Yeah, people can definitely check them out. And there's the wooden bodies one as well, isn't it? Which you prefer the wooden body or the metal? I

SPEAKER_02:

love both. It's an interesting thing because I have a different relationship with both of them. Now I play the wooden one more. But I love the metal one. When I first started playing my signature, I was playing... a lot more the metal one for whatever reason. I had much more of a connection, I guess, to it at the time. Now I'm more with the wooden one and I'm sure I'll go back and forth. And I still use the metal one for sure, but I use

SPEAKER_01:

the wooden one a bit more. So I assume the G48 Guayguamore chromatic is the only chromatic you play?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's the only thing. I mean, sometimes when I need like a longer range or whatever, I'll play the four octave serious chromatic It could be for recording. For instance, when I recorded Brothers in Arms, it's a key that goes too low. So I had to record that on a

SPEAKER_01:

serious, I might have four octaves. And so you mainly play a 12-hole chromatic? Absolutely. Especially live. And do you want to use standard tuned chromatic?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, Brandon Power was always trying to get me to try to use his different tuning. I tried a few. He gave me a diminished Suzuki harmonic. I like the regular tone.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you play any diatonic at all nowadays?

SPEAKER_02:

Not really anymore. I still own quite a few, and I'll jam on it once in a while. And what embouchure do you use? A tongue block all the time, which I believe really helps me to get the sort of definition I have when I play a bit faster, I think, the tongue block. and

SPEAKER_01:

talking about equipment do you play through any amplifiers or do you use the PA you know going mainly for a clean sound I

SPEAKER_02:

do have an amplifier but it's just when I rehearse or maybe at home for certain things

SPEAKER_01:

but is it a clean sort of acoustic

SPEAKER_02:

yeah it's completely clean but other than that when I perform concerts I do concerts it's always just the PA and what microphone do you like to use It can vary, but it's not the same setup when I record and when I play live. So live, I can play like a Shure 58. I like when it's wireless because it gives me the freedom to move around a little bit. There's also this company, Earthworks mics. They're incredible. And then for the amp, Schertler amplification. They are beautiful.

SPEAKER_01:

They have

SPEAKER_02:

the

SPEAKER_01:

bass, they have everything. And it's small. And so you mentioned using different mics for recording then. So what sort of mics do you like to record with?

SPEAKER_02:

To record, I use two mics. So I'll use a variety of different types of mic, but it's always, I'll have a Royer, which is known actually for great sound for acoustic guitar, for instance. And then a brighter mic that has just a great definition and sounds good, but maybe a little bit too bright. So the Royer will always give it a little bit more

SPEAKER_01:

body and a bit more warmth. And is the Royer, is that a ribbon mic, the Royer? Exactly. So some of those Royer ribbon mics, so they're the most famous ribbon mics and some of them are very expensive. It's not a 1-2-1, is it?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it is. Exactly,

SPEAKER_01:

that's the one. The Royer 1-2-1. Yes, I'll just put it. So the ribbon mics are really expensive, but I think the ribbon mics work really well with the chromatic because it really softens that high end on the chromatic.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, exactly. But I need a second mic to make it really sound perfect. And what about using any effects? Yes, I started. I'm also endorsing Zoom, you know, Zoom, but not the company that makes teleconference, but Zoom, the pedal effects or the recorder. So they make all kinds of pedals effects. So I've been working with one of the newest effects, which is a multi-effect pedal that is designed for the voice or the harmonica or I guess different like acoustic instruments. Yeah, it's the Zoom A1X pedal. for acoustic instruments, multi-effect processor. So I've been kind of playing with that and also on a bunch of Boss pedals. So I do work with effects, yes. But I'm also, I'm very prudent to try to use it really when it needs it, not just to use it. I just really try to make sure that it's the right time. That's the same thing. It's all about music and the music should tell

SPEAKER_01:

you when that

SPEAKER_02:

should be

SPEAKER_01:

used, not the other way around. Well, that's sort of the question then. Obviously, we're still in pandemic times at the moment so are things looking for you now what's your future plans

SPEAKER_02:

yeah I mean in terms of I'm still recording some but in terms of live I may have some shows in the fall but I'm not sure it's going to happen I'm invited with Edmar to come at the London Jazz Festival but I don't know if we're going to be able to come But then after that would be, I've got a couple possible shows in the fall, but then after that it would be next year. So I'm basically really planning on trying to start again next

SPEAKER_01:

year. finishing off um you're taking part in the uh the harmonica uk chromatic weekend this friday evening at 8 p.m uk time so people who hear that here before then which is on the 24th of july 2020 so yeah if people would catch that before then obviously they can check you out on that doing doing a workshop which we're looking forward to as well so so thanks very much greg wall for the time thank you That's it for today, folks. Final word from my sponsor, the Longwolf Blues Company, providing some great effects pedals and microphones, all purpose-built for the harmonica. Be sure to check out their website. Gregoire, play some Crepuscule Sweet.