Happy Hour Harmonica Podcast

Hermine Deurloo interview

• Neil Warren • Season 1 • Episode 42

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Hermine Deurloo joins me on episode 42. 

Hermine is a Dutch female chromatic harmonica player who grew up to the sound of master jazz player Toots Thielemans. After studying saxophone at the Amsterdam Conservatory, she picked up the chromatic and transitioned over to the harmonica being her instrument of choice. 

Her first album was of Brazilian music, and she has gone on to record several jazz albums in her own name. Her more recent album, Riverbeast, delves into 70s funk. She has appeared as a guest artist on numerous albums and is famous in her native Netherlands for playing the advertisement music for sausages!

Hermine won the SPAH harmonica player of the year award in 2018 and hopes she can inspire other females to pick up the harmonica.


Links:
Website:
https://www.herminedeurloo.com/

Strangely In Love film music: The Stalker
https://soundcloud.com/awintory/dostoevsky-in-love-the-stalker?utm_source=clipboard&utm_campaign=wtshare&utm_medium=widget&utm_content=https%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Fawintory%252Fdostoevsky-in-love-the-stalker

Ambleside festival:
https://www.amblesidedays.co.uk/

Saed Haddad harmonica composition, performed by Hermine:
https://soundcloud.com/dr-saed-haddad/melancholie-for-chromatic-harmonica-orch-extract-1-2017-18

Bernie Bray SPAH award winners:
https://www.spah.org/content.asp?contentid=61

Blows Me Away Productions harmonica equipment:
http://www.blowsmeaway.com/


Videos:
Studio work videos:
https://www.herminedeurloo.com/studio-work/

Sausage advert on Netherlands TV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghXe6Y75RGs


Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com  or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
and Blows Me Away Productions: http://www.blowsmeaway.com/

Support the show

SPEAKER_00:

Hermione Derlo joins me on episode 42. Hermione is a Dutch female chromatic player who grew up to the sound of master jazz player Toots Tielmans. After studying saxophone at the Amsterdam Conservatory, she picked up the chromatic and transitioned over to the harmonica, being her instrument of choice. Her first album was of Brazilian music and she has gone on to record several jazz albums in her own name. Her most recent album, River Beast, delves into 70s funk. She has appeared as a guest artist on numerous albums and is famous in her native Netherlands for playing the advertisement music for sausages. Hermione won the Spa Harmonica Player of the Year in 2018 and hopes she can inspire other females to pick up the harmonica. Hello, Hermione Derlo and welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_03:

Hello, Neil. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. And you're joining us from beautiful Amsterdam. So you're Dutch and you're largely a Well, I think you're entirely a chromatic player.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I play mainly chromatic harmonica. I started out on saxophone, but I put it aside because the chromatic harmonica took so much time for me that I quit playing saxophone. And the diatonic, I sometimes play just a little bit. You know, sometimes I need it for a recording or something.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you play blues stuff on the diatonic or do you play more melodic things?

SPEAKER_03:

Sometimes a little bit of blues stuff, but it's not really very good. I still have to get into that.

SPEAKER_00:

So that decision then about, like you say, dropping the saxophone for the chromatic harmonica. So what led to that and how has that been for you? Hopefully it's turned out great for you. But I imagine in many respects, getting work on saxophone is maybe easier than chromatic harmonica or is that not the case for you?

SPEAKER_03:

It's not the case with me. Well, first I had a lot of work on saxophone and I played in this band and we traveled all over the world. And I already played some harmonica solos with this band as a feature. But I got more and more jobs on chromatic harmonica here in the Netherlands, mainly, with big orchestras, but also with my own band and a lot of studio work with advertisement and stuff. So it got more and more, so I started to think I could focus on that. It was more special and... Besides that, I played saxophone from when I was 13 or 14. So it was time to do something new also, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so do you find that playing the chromatic harmonica makes you quite unique? And like you say, maybe more in demand because there's a lot of saxophone players and not so many good jazz chromatic harmonica players.

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. I thought I had something special to say on this instrument. And I just really enjoyed it very much.

SPEAKER_00:

And so you studied saxophone at the conservatory in Amsterdam

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And was it at this point you started playing the chromatic harmonica as well?

SPEAKER_03:

After I finished this study, I did the jazz department on the conservatory. And just right after my last concert there, I found this chromatic harmonica in the shop and I was already a Tootsie LeMans fan. So I was very delighted and I just started it just for fun, actually.

SPEAKER_00:

You mentioned Toots Tilmans there, who of course every chromatic player is a massive fan of. So obviously, Netherlands is very sort of closely tied to Belgium. It's a neighbor of the country. So it was Toots, someone that you were, you know, very familiar with in Netherlands as well as being quite, you know, was he on TV a lot over there?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, he was really playing a lot here in big halls and stuff. And he was giving a lot of concerts here and also playing a lot of tunes for television and film. So everybody knew him here. You know, he very popular here still

SPEAKER_00:

yeah I actually bought a postcard of two like a little post like in a postcard I've been playing at the North Sea Jazz Festival which was a festival in uh in Netherlands which I bought from Amsterdam coincidentally so yeah so the North Sea Jazz Festival doesn't happen anymore does it

SPEAKER_03:

uh well not this year uh because of corona but it happens still every year so last year it was cancelled it was a big problem uh this year it's cancelled again but there are some concerts in Rotterdam taking place but yes the festival is still a very large festival I played there a couple of times also

SPEAKER_00:

okay excellent so what got you interested in the harmonica you always listen to a harmonica and were you know a fan of the sound

SPEAKER_03:

yes I already listened to Stielemans on my high school and I really liked it and I also really was a big fan of Stevie Wonder so I was always wondering how this sounds how you could make this sound on a harmonica but then the saxophone was taken more seriously in that time. So I always also searched out solos of Toots Thielemans on saxophone and stuff. Yeah, I had lots of records already of toots at my home before I really started to play this instrument myself.

SPEAKER_00:

Any favourite songs of toots?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I like the recording of Killer Joe with the Metropolitan Orchestra. The Metropolitan Orchestra is an orchestra from Holland also.

UNKNOWN:

.

SPEAKER_03:

And there is this record, I had it on vinyl, and it's called Life at the Boerehoeven. It's like... this little place somewhere in the middle of the netherlands and toots gave a concert there in the 70s and this is just a very beautiful recording i really liked so yeah

SPEAKER_00:

so so what about that you know moving across from the saxophone to the chromatic harmonica and playing and playing jazz was that something you were able to sort of move across and use what you'd learned on the saxophone quite easily or was it quite different playing you know playing the chromatic

SPEAKER_03:

Playing the chromatic, it's completely different from a saxophone, obviously, because you don't use your hands, actually, and you just make a sound, and you inhale, of course, to make a sound. I could use the theory I had learned, so I knew how to study, you know. First, I studied all the scales and stuff, and I knew how to make my own exercises. But as far as the technique of playing the instrument, I had to find it out myself. I just, listened to a lot of dudes and I went to his concerts to see how he does it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think the saxophone is seen as being an instrument that you can play quite fluidly, whereas the chromatic maybe that's a bit of a challenge, isn't it, to play fluidly on the chromatic and to play it auto. So what about the difference between the two instruments in that way?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you can play very fast on the saxophone very easily, so it was frustrating to not be able to do that. But you have to learn to find... to make one note bent into the other. And of course you have to play fast to do that. You know, you have to be able to play fast so you can sort of make the jump between the different tones. You can make it very fast so you don't hear this, yeah, the gap between the notes. So you have a little gap. You have to sort of make it very, very small and then it sounds fluent. I

SPEAKER_00:

believe you played with toots at some point, didn't you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yes, in the 90s I had a concert in... Brussels in a beautiful hotel. And Toots and his wife, Huguette, came over to have lunch and to hear me. They were invited by the boss of the hotel. So he was enjoying it very much. And then I asked him, of course, if he wanted to play something. And I was there with a Brazilian band. So he played some Brazilian tunes. He was a very, very kind person.

SPEAKER_00:

So great. Yeah. So you went on from there. And I think you recorded your first album in 1997. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's right. Sozinhos. It's Brazilian, of course. And I recorded it with a Brazilian guitar player and a Brazilian band that lives in the Netherlands, some Brazilian and some people from Uruguay.

UNKNOWN:

Sozinhos

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I enjoyed it very much to do this. I always played a lot of Brazilian music already, so I was familiar with this kind of music.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so is that something that, I always say, obviously Toots did a couple of albums, didn't he, where he played Brazilian music. So is that something you're interested in from that start, obviously that early stage where you're recording?

SPEAKER_03:

Also, but I listened to already to Brazilian music before I knew Toots. But I think the harmonica fits so well for this music. So that's amazing. It's so

SPEAKER_00:

easy. Is that the rhythms of it, you think, work well on the chromatic?

SPEAKER_03:

I don't know if it's because of the rhythms, because you have to feel them. And of course, you can play it on other instruments as well. But maybe the sound goes very well with guitar and stuff. And it's very high. And I'm not sure why this is. Maybe because they also use flute a lot you know and I want to go in the same register as flute

SPEAKER_00:

So how did you come to recording this Brazilian band? This is your first album. Did you record this in the Netherlands?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, in a studio with a recording engineer I still work with. Later became the sound engineer for Toots Stielemans, which was really a coincidence, by the way.

SPEAKER_00:

He was trained with you, obviously. Yeah. So you were still playing around the Netherlands and then around Europe at this time, were you?

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, yeah, I played not so much in other countries, more maybe Belgium or Germany. But right after that, I was asked for this by this band in the Netherlands. And it is sort of an avant-garde band, but also with jazz, a lot of jazz influences. And I became a member of this band and I played mainly alto saxophone. But I kept on playing the harmonica at my house or just, you know, practicing. And I had some solos in this band, also but you know this was a good job so i i stayed there for 12 years and this job and we traveled all over the world so

SPEAKER_00:

you did some more some more recordings anything you did an album called uh i am jazz and

SPEAKER_03:

called it was called i say jazz

SPEAKER_00:

i say jazz

SPEAKER_03:

yeah and it was um with a piano player and a bass player it was their project and i uh joined them so it's not really under my name but um yes these were just very good jazz musicians in holland and it gave me a lot of experience to try stuff out and

SPEAKER_00:

this was all on the chromatic was it

SPEAKER_03:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

So do you still play the saxophone now?

SPEAKER_03:

No, not anymore, because with the embouchure it's difficult. And also, you know, at some point I decided only to make albums with harmonica. So I tried to, you know, get better and, you know, get a higher level and really working on that.

SPEAKER_00:

I think a lot of harmonic players kind of worry that, you know, the instrument isn't, particularly in jazz, isn't mainstream enough to be taken maybe seriously or be in demand.

SPEAKER_03:

You

SPEAKER_00:

don't find that again. You find that, you know, that uniqueness to the sound again gets you the work.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I think so. But at first also I was worried, so I didn't quit the saxophone for a long time. But I could build up my harmonica career besides that, you know, on the side. So when that worked out very well, then I could have the courage to stop with the saxophone. Although I miss the instrument sometimes, but you know, you have to choose if you really want to focus on something.

SPEAKER_00:

And you don't sing at all, do you?

SPEAKER_03:

No, no. Of course, only for fun, you know. Not professionally. It's just another profession, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. And so you've done this second album, as we say. During this time, were you starting to get other session work?

SPEAKER_03:

During that time, I was asked to play these advertisements in Holland. And one of the advertisements turned out to be the most famous tune on Dutch television. So... I played this and I think they used the music for 20 years already now.

SPEAKER_00:

This is to advertise some sausages, is that right?

SPEAKER_03:

It's true, yeah. It's true. And if I play it, people will always recognize it. Everybody. If I go into a cab, you hear this music, so...

SPEAKER_00:

So how does it feel to be the sound of sausages in the Netherlands?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's weird. It's not only sausages, it's also soup and stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, yeah. I assume you're not a vegetarian.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm not.

SPEAKER_00:

So great, but no, great to get that exposure. So did you do that quite early on?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I recorded in 2001. So it was exactly 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. So did that get you a lot of exposure then and it really helped your career?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Some people still think it's, two to three months. You know, I always have to tell that it was me. But yeah, it gave me a lot of exposure and still gives me a lot of exposure.

SPEAKER_00:

Fantastic. Always great to go on the television. And then, was it your first solo album or the first album in your name in 2005, Crazy Clock?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I recorded this with a friend in New York. He's a very good bass player and guitar player. It's a home recording, but he has a very good studio. Yeah, it was a lot of fun to make and I still like it. I still play music with him also. He's also on my last recording, this bass player. That's Tony Scherer.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and so have you spent much time in New York?

SPEAKER_03:

I just go there regularly. Not now, of course, but I've been there a lot. I've played also there with Dutch bands in New York. So I recorded this album with Tony in 2005 and my last recording I made in 2019. We also mixed in New York and we did some overdubs with violins and stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

So New York, of course, has got a great jazz scene. Is that something you've managed to tap into?

SPEAKER_03:

Not really. But I have some connections there, but still, I would like to go there longer and go to sessions or something. But I know some people there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Are there many chromatic harmonica players

SPEAKER_03:

there? More and more. Of course, you have Grégoire Marnin living there. Yeah. Yvonne Nick. Yeah. And you have Hendrik Merkens, who is already... working for a long time and uh yeah some new young people also

SPEAKER_00:

this uh this crazy clock album you've a lot of it was written by the bass player wasn't it and this has kind of got this this kind of african beat on there on one of the songs and so

SPEAKER_03:

We did a lot of covers. So this is a cover of Ali Farka Toure, you know, from Senegal, I think. And yeah, we just found covers that are not really familiar, but we just gave them a twist, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Your next album was in 2007, Soundbite. So was this kind of a bit of a homage to Toot's Man Bites Harmonica?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, a little bit. First I thought maybe I can call it Woman Bites Harmonica. That was a little bit too much. So I thought Soundbite, like sort of a reference to this album of Toot's. And it was recorded with a big band.

UNKNOWN:

Music

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_03:

it was recorded by the same person that wrote this advertisement. So this very successful advertisement was made at the studio. And he decided to make this whole Big Band album with me. So it was also a lot of experience for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so as you say, it's with a big band and it's all these big band arrangements. And so what's it like playing in a big band, that little small harmonica with all that big band sound?

SPEAKER_03:

I thought because we had some recordings of Toots also with the Metropole big band. And I thought it was a challenge to make the arrangements in a certain way that the harmonica still gets a lot of space.

SPEAKER_00:

Because it was within a big band, were you playing sort of written pieces or were you just improvising?

SPEAKER_03:

I did a lot of improvising, of course, but only the melodies are written out.

SPEAKER_00:

And where was that one recorded? In

SPEAKER_03:

Amsterdam, in the studio.

SPEAKER_00:

And how did that come about with the big band and recording the album with them?

SPEAKER_03:

I just talked to the man of the advertisement and he thought, let's make a kind of a 70s atmosphere big band harmonica album. We hired some arrangers to make this different kind of arrangements. So we recorded it there. And afterwards, I was a guest at a lot of big bands and I took these arrangements to the big bands.

SPEAKER_00:

There's a song on there called Holland, which is a kind of tradition traditional Dutch sort of sound. It starts out with, I think it's a harmonic with an accordion, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, so this is the advertisement. Everybody knows.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. The beginning of it. And then it goes further away into a jazz arrangement.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, a great album. And so in 2012, you did another album in your name called Glass Fish. This is quite different, isn't it? It's quite a sort of modern jazz sound, this one.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I thought, let's try to make my own band and write some own pieces, you know. I think I wrote one or two on this... So I wanted to do more modern jazz also to do the gigs I really liked, you know. Yeah, and I was very happy with these musicians because, you know, Jesse van Ruller on guitar is, you know, one of the best guitar players I know. And he played here as a guest. You have the bass player that I really like. And also we use a different instrument, the hang. It's kind of the hang. It's... It's this special instrument. It sounds a little bit like bells. And with this band, I played on the North Sea Jazz Festival. Yeah, we recorded this in Germany with my sound engineer, beautiful studio in a farm.

SPEAKER_00:

There's lots of space, isn't there, for the harmonica at Real Place for you to play?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I thought, let's not do too much drums because that can be a little bit crowdy, you know?

SPEAKER_00:

There's a song on there called Glass Fish.

SPEAKER_02:

He... Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

You seem to have a bit of a water theme in some of your album titles. Is there any particular reason

SPEAKER_03:

for that? Yeah, it's weird. It's not on purpose, actually, but I like to write this African-influenced music. It's a sort of African song, Glass Fish. I just had this image of a tropical sea with these almost invisible fishes or something. I'm like, yeah, it's just an association, you know?

SPEAKER_00:

The song Glass Fish, is that a song that you composed?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I compose this, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So how do you go about composing a song? Are you doing that on the chromatic or do you use another instrument to help you do that as well?

SPEAKER_03:

First, I sit at the piano and I see if I can find nice chord changes. And sometimes I just have a groove or a very simple chord. And then I play some melodies with a chromatic harmonica. I write the melodies from my harmonica, but sitting behind the piano, you know, like...

SPEAKER_00:

So how is your piano playing?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, not so good. Not so good. But of course I can find chords, you know, and I can play a little bit.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's a big thing, particularly with jazz, isn't it? Do you need that second instrument, particularly an instrument which plays chords? Like, you know, obviously Toots played guitar to a good standard as well. So do you see that as being a really critical thing in your learning? I mean, I guess when you were studying saxophone, you had to have a second instrument. And was that piano for you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it was piano. And of course, you needed to understand the harmony, you know, to just check out and see how it could sound and play. You know, I'm still working on that too. You keep on learning. And on the conservatory, I learned to play the chords a little bit and to accompany people a little bit and to get new ideas. And if I'm starting to compose songs, sometimes I play a lot of other songs to check out if I find some nice chord changes I might use or something.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so I think a lot of people who play, particularly the harmonica in this case, you know, the thought that you need to learn a second instrument is quite, you know, it's daunting, yeah, because you have to spend a lot of time playing another instrument. And, you know, so you think that brings definite value, though. You think it's something pretty critical, particularly playing jazz.

SPEAKER_03:

I think it's very, yeah, it's really necessary, particularly if you want to write tunes, you know. For me, writing my own tunes is sort of necessary to... go further into music i really enjoy it and i really like to try out new tunes and of course you don't always want to play tunes of other people not me anyway

SPEAKER_00:

but when you're coming up with a melody you say you do that on the on the harmonica

SPEAKER_03:

yeah most of the time yeah because also you know there's not much written for harmonica and if you of course you play things that are good sounding on harmonica you know and you you can use stuff you can use little lines that are easy on a harmonica.

SPEAKER_00:

So do you come up with the melodies on the harmonica before you would put chords to it on the piano?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it's more going back and forth.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so and then your next album, three years later, I think in 2015, called Welling, which is done with a jazz string quartet called Zap 4.

UNKNOWN:

...

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, they are very popular here in Holland. At first I thought, let's make an album with a string quartet and maybe a piano or bass. And I had a more conservative idea, you know, like playing standards or something. Then I met this string quartet and they are really original. They play on tunes and very strange arrangements. And I enjoyed it so much that I thought, let's make something really... original you know and play with them so this was really a cooperation they brought a lot of arrangements and songs and I brought I think one but I had some other ideas that we made arrangements from

SPEAKER_00:

No, I really love the album. It's quite quirky.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's really interesting. Lots of great stuff. Una Volta is...

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's my song, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's your song, is it? Oh, no, that's the one I really liked on the album in particular.

UNKNOWN:

Oh, great. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

there's a song called welling what where does that come from

SPEAKER_03:

welling is a bar in amsterdam

SPEAKER_00:

okay

SPEAKER_03:

this band was playing there a lot so it's the alto violin player he wrote this song he writes a lot of songs and arrangements so one he contributed to welling so

SPEAKER_00:

Do you still play with that band at all?

SPEAKER_03:

No, they quit playing together a couple of years ago. Of course, I saw also, we did a couple of concerts and then we moved on to next things. But you never know, maybe we'll play one day.

SPEAKER_00:

And then in 2016, you did another album called Living Here with a pianist and composer.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, Rembrandt Freerichs. We started working together in 2014, and he has sort of the same musical background as me, also listening a lot to Stielemans, but also listening a lot to Baroque music, because I grew up with Baroque music with my parents. So we had some similarities, and we made a whole repertoire of our own songs but also some standards we just adapted, you know. And so we did a couple of concerts for a couple of years, and then we decided to make this album and to invite this cello player as a sort of a classical line or, you know, a counter voice to the harmonica. Yeah, so that was also a lot of fun to make. We all recorded these albums, like Welling, but also this one again in Germany.

SPEAKER_00:

In the same studio.

SPEAKER_03:

Same studio, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

You talk about the studio. So a question, we'll get onto gear a little bit later, but when you're recording the chromatic harmonica, what equipment are you using for that? Microphone, for example.

SPEAKER_03:

I just use an Assure SM58

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so you're holding that when you're recording,

SPEAKER_03:

are

SPEAKER_00:

you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's all. But the recording engineer is this friend of mine who worked for Toots Stielemans 10 years. So he exactly knows how to record a chromatic harmonica.

SPEAKER_00:

So did Toots also record with a SM58? Yeah, mostly. Okay, because it's interesting, a lot of people would use like a large condenser microphone, wouldn't they, which they would stand off when recording. Obviously, I know Toots played an SM58 when he was playing live, but he Yeah, it's interesting to hear you use that to record as well.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't know if he used that always, but in his last recordings, he definitely did.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and you do always use an SM58 when you're recording.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So don't you find you get quite a lot of noise on the microphone when you're playing that way, particularly in the recording, that maybe it wouldn't be so noticed in a live performance, but when recording, it picks up a lot of knocking the microphone, breathing noises and things?

SPEAKER_03:

It does, but I think my sound engineer removes it all.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

A lot of it, anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

You've really got that down. That's really interesting. On the

SPEAKER_03:

other hand, you know, I'm holding the microphone before the harmonica, but not against the harmonica, so you don't hear bumps or something.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so you're sort of putting your finger between... Yeah, it's

SPEAKER_03:

a little bit of distance, of course. And still, also, because with the other instruments, you don't hear so much the noises anymore.

SPEAKER_00:

Sounds like you've got a great recording engineer you there so yeah so this living living here album as you say there's lots of great piano on there and there's this thing that the chromatic harmonica works so well with the piano doesn't it I think they're both quite gentle sounding instruments aren't they which just complement each other so well

SPEAKER_03:

yes I think it's a beautiful combination and of course you have to find the piano player that suits you he's also playing not too much you know like giving me space and stuff yeah

SPEAKER_00:

is that something you do yourself when you're, you know, practicing at home with a piano? Do you sort of record yourself parts or do you even play the chromatic at the same time as the piano?

SPEAKER_03:

No, I don't do that. Some people can. It's very amazing. Like Antonio Serrano, I think he plays.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, sometimes I play a chord with my left hand and I try out a melody, but now it's very basic.

SPEAKER_00:

Got a great song on there, which is a samba one. So another sort of Brazilian theme one on there, the Samba de Umbreca.

SPEAKER_03:

That's really a Brazilian song written by Guinga. That's a very well-known Brazilian musician. And well, we changed it, of course, a little bit. We didn't play it really very Brazilian, but we played it more like a wild song. And it is with Jim Black on drums. And Jim Black is a very famous modern jazz or even avant-garde drummer.

SPEAKER_00:

and then your most recent album which you alluded to earlier on is called River Beast another water themed and it's got a picture of you on the album cover playing the harmonica underwater

SPEAKER_03:

yeah we really went to a swimming pool just close to Amsterdam and I went there with this photographer and we could make photos there for like an hour so we dived underwater and he had this underwater camera so it was a lot of fun to do

SPEAKER_00:

so why the title River Beast

SPEAKER_03:

well I just wrote a couple of songs about my childhood i went with my family my cousins a lot of friends and we were swimming in all these rivers and we had a great time so i wrote a couple of songs inspired by that and one of them is called river beast so

SPEAKER_00:

So that song has got a really sort of languid feel about it. It's the rhythm kind of judders along, doesn't it? I guess it's trying to get that Riverby sort of feel about it.

SPEAKER_03:

It's also, you know, Herbie Hancock wrote this Swamp Rat song and it's a little bit inspired by that. It's also a little bit inspired by groovy 70s music. My whole childhood was, of course, in the 70s. On this album is drummer Steve Gadd, famous for his beautiful rhythms. in a lot of 70s songs. So this was my whole goal, to make songs that would fit really for this drummer.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it is very funky, isn't it? And it's great to hear the harmonica in that setting, and I think that is another setting that it really suits,

SPEAKER_03:

doesn't it? Yeah, that's not really done so much, I thought, also.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but the question I really want to know is what happened to the harmonica that you put underwater in the swimming

SPEAKER_03:

pool? Well, it's not playable anymore. It was an old harmonica. I have many harmonicas here that are just a little bit out of tune,

SPEAKER_00:

you know. I

SPEAKER_03:

keep them to see if I can take something from it.

SPEAKER_00:

So it was an old harmonic.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's ruined.

SPEAKER_00:

So people listening should not try to replicate that at home and put their harmonicas underwater. Particularly chromatic harmonicas. Yeah. Imagine the wind servers didn't like that very much. Yeah, it's completely ruined. So could you play the harmonica underwater or was that impossible?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I heard sounds, yeah. It is possible though, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, great. You say this is quite a funky album and there's quite a lot of nice strong melodic lines on the chromatic that you're playing. So I understand that you and the other band members composed what pretty much all the songs in this album did you

SPEAKER_03:

uh yes uh i think there's maybe two two covers i don't know i think i wrote four or five songs there's a cover of an american band it's called doctor's wind so there's a cover of earl randall it's if we can trust each other yeah

SPEAKER_00:

and that that song is with a singer isn't it alan clark yeah

SPEAKER_03:

and uh

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so that's what it's quite a soul feel about, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And you released that song sort of as a single as well, haven't you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I released it as a single because Alain Clarke is also a very, very well-known singer here in Holland. I was playing with his band in all kinds of big theater halls. And then I thought, maybe he wants to play on my album as well. So then he said yes. So this was very nice.

SPEAKER_00:

There's a song in there called Song for My Sister. Was that one that you wrote for your sister?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So my sister, she's a very happy person and I decided to write this song for her. Also, The Road to Garganza is a song for my cousin. It's about us going to this little village in Italy. And So Long Redhead is also for my cousin. You know, Zombie Chicken is also for my cousin.

SPEAKER_00:

The same cousin?

SPEAKER_03:

No, it's a different cousin. So that's a little bit the whole album.

SPEAKER_00:

So I hope your family liked this album then.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, they

SPEAKER_00:

really liked

SPEAKER_03:

it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, with all the songs devoted to them. I really enjoyed all your albums. The more recent ones, I think, you know, are getting better and better.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you. Yeah, I hope so too. For myself, I liked the last album the best. Also, the musicians I made this, you know, they're all really great. All American musicians from New York. Of course, they're uh very good musicians everywhere but i choose these musicians because they understood what i wanted to do and to do this kind of style of music and they were so dedicated and yeah it was really a big pleasure

SPEAKER_00:

so you say you like this album the best of the ones you've done so does that mean you're sort of you've going away from jazz more it's not because you haven't done an old jazz album by any means have you but you've definitely had a sort of jazz uh you know jazz leaning in most of them haven't you is this you know does this see you going a little bit away from jazz or

SPEAKER_03:

yeah that's true because I'm planning another album like this but then with Dutch musicians I just really like sort of groove kind of music you call it Americana actually I like a mixture of sort of African style and Americana actually but I will always play a lot of solos I will always improvise so in that in that aspect I will stay to play jazz in a way like not really jazz but improvise

SPEAKER_00:

and a lot of your albums are mostly instrumentals aren't they there are a few vocals on this album for example but mostly instrumental so I mean how do you find that that goes for just the success of the album because you know there's a perception that people like to hear vocals yeah although personally I much prefer instrumental albums but most people prefer vocals don't they so is that that's a decision on your part to do instrumental albums or because that's what you prefer or you know and how about that for the success of the albums

SPEAKER_03:

I always wanted to make instrumental albums because I listened to it myself a lot of course it's difficult to sell and I'm not thinking of selling the album in the first place you know maybe I should

SPEAKER_00:

nobody buys albums anymore everyone streams them on

SPEAKER_03:

their own yeah that's true

SPEAKER_00:

Spotify and the like, don't they? So yes, that kind of market's gone to some extent, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's true. But I'm planning to make an album in the Netherlands with some well-known singers in the Netherlands that are in my kind of music. I plan to do an album with like six vocal numbers and six instrumentals and then, you know, make a combination of that.

SPEAKER_00:

Getting the chromatic harmonica works really well accompanying singers, doesn't it? A song you've released recently called Love Came to Me you did with a singer

SPEAKER_01:

called Kate Fenner, yeah? So

SPEAKER_00:

how do you approach playing with a singer?

SPEAKER_03:

Of course, it's very nice to give the singer space and then, you know, make sort of a duet. That's how I see it. I'm not really accompanying the singer, but it's more working together and having a duet.

SPEAKER_00:

Going back to this conversation on making albums. So obviously making albums costs quite a lot of money if you do it well and you get great musicians and you're hiring studios and things. So is it something that you feel you need to do to tour and to get the bands together to tour? Do you think that's the main driver these days to to make albums?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, one hand it is. On the other hand, I also just like to make an album and I like concept albums, you know, like albums that tell a story. And my experience is that if I make an album, I will get work out of it, but not necessarily with that band. So it's a broader perspective. I get attention, I get media attention, I will be asked by other people, you know, and I can play this music also with a smaller band or with Dutch musicians.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, So it gets you that exposure, as you say. So it's important to do it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there is. And... like this album River Beast maybe I probably I will make vinyl from this and I will sell maybe more than a CD

SPEAKER_00:

so yeah but like you say if you want to make a kind of themed album a concept album then you know it's great to do that too

SPEAKER_03:

and that helps me with writing songs if I have a theme or you know it's easier for me to make songs

SPEAKER_00:

that's your albums now you think about making some more but you played with lots of other people we touched on and one famous harmonica band who you've recorded with is Fatima Garner who also a Dutch band. Yeah. I've had Fatima Goner on the podcast and we've been through the album of those. So Fatima Goner and Friends is the album you're on with them, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. This was amazing. It was so much fun and it is so good to, you know, meet colleagues. Rob Jans is a very good chromatic harmonica player, very virtuoso also. And yeah, they play all kinds of music.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. Great. And you play with other people. Yeah. A guy called Chris Beckers, you played on his album.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. Yes. He's a great guitar player from Amsterdam.

SPEAKER_00:

And with a singer called Britta Maria. Oh

SPEAKER_03:

yeah, I recorded with her. She's doing a lot of French chansons. And I recently recorded also with a Greek singer, Irina. And tomorrow I'm going to do a recording with a German band called Coason. And this is a flamenco tune. Completely new.

SPEAKER_00:

So you've also played with Al Jarreau.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, this is a long time ago, in 2000, I think. I was a guest in a Dutch television program of a piano player, Cor Bakker. I still play with him. And Al Jarreau was a guest and he had this song with a harmonica solo on it. So I was asked to do that, which was great.

SPEAKER_00:

And you played with various orchestras as well. So you played in the concert ball in Amsterdam, where I've been myself. So you played in various orchestras. So is this What, as a guest soloist? Or are you playing classical music here?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I was soloist and it was mainly film music. So I played a lot of film music that Toots played. Also, they made arrangements of this advertisement tune I did. I played it with the orchestra. I'm going to play the film music again this November in the Ziggo Dome, which is the biggest hall in the Netherlands. But that's with the Major Paul and we play, of course, The Man with the Harmonica, which is just only... three notes, as you know. But I also play some other things of other movies.

SPEAKER_00:

You mentioned that you've done various film soundtracks. There was a film called Strangely in Love.

UNKNOWN:

Strangely in Love

SPEAKER_03:

This is where I did some lines on harmonica, and I did some children's movies. I did some music for that in 2000, but it's already a long time ago. And I played the music with a nature film about Amsterdam, about all the animals that are living in the city.

SPEAKER_00:

Is that called the Wildstad? Is that that

SPEAKER_03:

one? Yeah, that's called the Wildstad, yeah. And I also played a classical piece, a small group of people of the Concertgebouw Orchestra. I think it's Vulcan Williams we played.

SPEAKER_00:

Played numerous festivals around in different countries. You mentioned the North Sea Jazz Festival already, of course. You played in Cairo, played in Trondheim. Yeah, so you're playing festivals. And you're supposed to be, you're set to play in the UK later this year, yeah, for the UK listeners?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I play in Ambleside on a Thursday, 2nd of September. And I play in the Ribble Valley Festival. It's 29 October. I also play the 28th or 27th on the Ulverston Festival. And on the 31st of October, again in Ambleside.

SPEAKER_00:

You played a harmonica composition in an orchestra written by, is it a German?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, he's a composer from Jordania. He moved a long time ago to the south of Germany. And he's a very well-known composer in modern classical music.

SPEAKER_00:

He wrote a piece specifically for the harmonica, did

SPEAKER_03:

he? Yeah, he wrote a piece actually for me. One day I just got an email from him that he would like to try to write something. He had also this festival. It's the Donaueschingen Festival in Germany. So we could do the premiere there. So he wrote me two years before that. So first he wrote this tune and he talked to me about what was possible in the harmonica. He even tried to play it a little bit himself just to get to know the instrument. Well, he wrote this beautiful piece. So I was very happy. Of course, it's very difficult with a lot of big jumps, you know, and double notes and and stuff, and it's really modern, but I think it's melodic too.

SPEAKER_00:

You also have done some teaching of the harmonica at the Conservatory of Rotterdam.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I've been teaching there for four years on more the technical part. So I had a couple of students that were studying jazz on chromatic harmonica, and they had lessons from a trumpet player, and I did the technique, so etudes and scales and stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

So do you do any more teaching?

SPEAKER_03:

Only at home, yeah, just some private students, but not much.

SPEAKER_00:

And in 2018, you won the Bernie Bray... Harmonica Player of the Year.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it was such a big honour.

SPEAKER_00:

A question now that I'm sure you probably get asked a lot, which is why aren't there more female harmonica players? And maybe how do you think we can get more female harmonica players playing?

SPEAKER_03:

It's difficult because, of course, I don't know why this is. It's also in the jazz world, there are not many instrumentalists, not many female drummers or female bass players. There are more and more female saxophone players. It could be a role model could help. So I hope to inspire other women to try out this beautiful instrument.

SPEAKER_00:

Of course, there are lots of great female musicians, although they tend to be more classical on the side.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, because maybe the classical musicians are encouraging women more or something. I think it will develop and become better. Of course, the jazz scene was a kind of macho scene still. When I was young, to go to bands or play in bands, they were all guys, of course, and you have to adapt. And also on workshops or jam sessions you have to be more outgoing you have to a little bit fight for your place you know so if you don't if you're not persistent enough maybe you stop you know if I think of myself I just did it and I try to get my place in these jam sessions and stuff but it's difficult

SPEAKER_00:

well it's great to see I mean like you say it's appealing for the females in the audience as well to see a female player isn't it

SPEAKER_03:

I think so yeah it can be inspiring and just know that.

SPEAKER_00:

A question I ask each time, Hermione, is if you had 10 minutes to practice, what would you spend those 10 minutes doing?

SPEAKER_03:

I would practice five minutes of scales, and I would then, you know, go over all the 12 scales, either in major or melodic minor. Although the first thing I would do is play a long note or a couple of long notes, listen to your sounds, then do the sub scales, like our old 12 scales. And then 10 minutes, I would play songs. I divide my time always in thirds. So one third is technique. One third is playing chord changes and go over new tunes with chord changes. And the last third, I really play a whole tune with a solo and I try to play a beautiful thing, like I would be on stage.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and you do that with backing tracks or without?

SPEAKER_03:

Sometimes with backing tracks, but lately I'm doing this very difficult thing, like just putting on the metronome and only play with the metronome and keeping the one on the good place, you know. It's harsh, but

SPEAKER_00:

It's very

SPEAKER_03:

good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's a good way instead of, because I practice usually songs with backing tracks and yeah, you kind of rely on the backing track for your timing and things, don't you? You do it with a metronome, you have to be much more disciplined.

SPEAKER_03:

It's very disciplined and sometimes it's difficult and I just want to relax and I put on a nice backing

SPEAKER_02:

track.

SPEAKER_03:

But my experience is that I moved forward by doing this with a metronome. I really improved, I think.

SPEAKER_00:

And your sound, you know i think it's been described as having a rich lyrical sound effortless fluency gentle lyrical i think does sum up your sound nice you get a very nice tone it is it's quite gentle and you know that lyrical is very accurate you know have you worked on your sound in a particular way to get that

SPEAKER_03:

well yes i just did a lot a lot of playing long notes from soft to loud and back again and also to really hear where the sound can be more round and warm and i adapt my embouchure in ways that I get the sound. So it's a lot of listening to yourself and adapt how you play and relaxing the embouchure and still making a good sound, you know, and having a lot of air inside of your mouth.

SPEAKER_00:

So do you record yourself a lot when you're practicing to listen back to yourself?

SPEAKER_03:

Not so much, but a little. I just listen to myself while playing. Of course, I did a lot of studio work, so I listened a lot to myself in studio. But also I spend a lot of time with bending and bending and influencing the tone making waves or not you know bending it down or not you know also listened a lot to violin players like classical violin players they have so much nuance and subtlety yeah but it all has to do with how do you make the sound and do you play it softer or louder do you bend it or not you know

SPEAKER_00:

yeah so you obviously spent a lot of time thinking about getting the sound

SPEAKER_03:

music

SPEAKER_00:

so we'll move on to the last section now so last section talking about gear so um Talking about what harmonica you play, I believe you play the Toots models, do you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I still play the hard bopper. I started playing on the mellow tone a long time ago, but the hard bopper is now good for me and

SPEAKER_00:

They're the ones I play as well. I mean, I do have other ones, but they're the ones I do prefer. Definitely the Toots ones. I think they're still great, aren't they? I think the one downside with them, of course, is that they don't have screwed-on replays. So, you know, they've got nails and things. So I really wish that Honi would make a model with screwed-on replays.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, me too. Yeah, like a wooden one. Like the wooden one, but then with changeable replays.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, which they're doing, of course, with their 270 models now. So I really wish they'd do with the... So, yeah, so you're still playing that. one. Do you not play any other models of chromatic then?

SPEAKER_03:

I tried out a Suzuki. Which is also very good. Still, the sound didn't appeal to me as much as the Hard Bopper. And I played like the Ace of Hohner. Good one too. And this other model, the Super 64. So

SPEAKER_00:

do you play much 16-hole?

SPEAKER_03:

No, I play 12-hole. But sometimes if I need a 16-hole, I play the Super 64. It's also very good. But I don't know why I still want to play the Hard Bopper. For me, it's the most subtle one. So it's about subtlety that I'm looking for.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and you mentioned embouchure earlier on. So what embouchure do you like to use?

SPEAKER_03:

Pucker.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so all pucker then.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, only if I have to play double notes for these classical pieces, of course. I use thumb blocking.

SPEAKER_00:

Equipment-wise, what amplification do you like to use?

SPEAKER_03:

Now I'm using a Fishman amplifier with the SM58.

SPEAKER_00:

So do you use the Fishman for most of your live playing then? You don't use a PA? Do you mic up the small amp?

SPEAKER_03:

If I know the sound engineer or I can bring my own sound engineer, I will use the PA. But otherwise, I bring my Fishman amp and we just plug it in you know

SPEAKER_00:

and do you use any effects pedals with that

SPEAKER_03:

I just used a little bit of the reverb of this amp.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you know what amp that actually is? Which model of Fishman?

SPEAKER_03:

I used the Loudbox Mini.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's a small amp then?

SPEAKER_03:

It's a very small amp, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and an acoustic sounding amp. And we obviously talked about you using the SM58. Is it one with a volume control?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's a volume control. It's from the company Blows Me Away.

SPEAKER_00:

Greg Newman, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, Greg Newman, yeah. I really like them.

SPEAKER_00:

I know he makes the body... shorter doesn't it and obviously puts the volume control in it as well

SPEAKER_03:

yeah so it's it's a little bit easier to have it in your hand and also i put it on three quarts and then if the drummer goes very loud or the band i can put it a little bit louder

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and what about any future plans that you've got now i see things are opening up now you you're starting to get out there now playing or what have you got coming up

SPEAKER_03:

i had already a couple of concerts i had a project about plants so i wrote all kinds of songs about plants And it was inspired by The Secret Life of Plants by Stevie Wonder. And so I'm doing a couple of concerts with that. And then later I will play some Brazilian music with a Brazilian band. I will play this modern classical piece again in September here in Holland with a big orchestra. And I will do the evening of the film music also with the Metropole Orchestra in November. And of course, the concerts in the UK. I'm really looking forward.

SPEAKER_00:

So most of your work at the moment is in the Netherlands, is it?

SPEAKER_03:

Most in the Netherlands, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, obviously travel is still difficult at the moment, isn't it? Yeah, it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

but obviously, hopefully, as you say, later in the year, we have to come across the UK and other places.

SPEAKER_02:

Hopefully, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So what did you do with yourself over the pandemic time? Were you busy playing and writing things or did you have a break from music?

SPEAKER_03:

First, I had a little break, two months, and then I started practicing again. And then I did a lot of live streams also here in the Netherlands, but also some international live streams also for spa. Yeah, I did a lot of also paid live streams here in the Netherlands, which was great.

SPEAKER_00:

Great. Yeah. So you managed to get some income that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Also a lot of recordings, like a guest with people's albums.

SPEAKER_00:

And were you recording those at home or going to a studio for that?

SPEAKER_03:

Mostly to my sound engineer, the same one that was sound engineer of Toots. He lives a couple of streets away from here. So I did a lot of recordings there.

SPEAKER_00:

So thanks so much for joining me today, Hermione Durlow.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, it was a pleasure. Thank you, Neil.

SPEAKER_00:

That's it for episode 42. Thanks so much for listening and thanks once again for Hermione producing such beautiful music for us all to enjoy. She's really doing it for the sisters. Now let's hear more ladies playing that chromatic harmonica and diatonic. So it's just over to Hermione to tell us a long story short.

UNKNOWN:

So Thank you.