Dying Out Loud

Special guest Dave Warnock of “Dying out Loud” shares his story of de-conversion, estrangement and his fatal  ALS diagnosis. Dave shares with us the importance of living our best life even while estranged and living with a debilitating and fatal disease. 

You can learn more about Dave by clicking the link below. 

www.daveoutloud.com

Other resources
https://clergyproject.org
https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org


https://buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

The following is a Kingfisher Media Podcast. You are listening to When the Bow Breaks with your host, Alexis Arrolyn.

SPEAKER_03: 0:15

This is Alexis Arrow Lynn and you are listening to When the Bow Breaks podcast. Today our guest is Dave Warnock from Dave Out Loud. Dave, can you give us a little brief overview about yourself?

SPEAKER_01: 0:29

Hi, Alexis. Yes, um, I am an agnostic atheist, but uh for the better part of my life I was an evangelical charismatic Christian. Um of that time, many of those years, was involved in active ministry, pastoring at various churches, um, evangelical fundamentalist type churches, and um let that faith go about 10 years ago. And in the interim, in the last 10 years, I was just living my normal life, just minding my own business. I wasn't what you would consider an atheist activist. I wasn't doing podcasts or speaking at anything, I was just selling insurance and enjoying life. And then a little over a year ago, I was diagnosed with ALS, which is Lugert's disease, and it's a fatal disease with no cure, no treatment. And so I kind of changed uh changed what I was spending my time with at that point.

SPEAKER_03: 1:32

Uh-huh. So I have a question. I I a lot of my listeners, you know, I'm sure have heard about you, and some of them haven't. Can you tell a little bit about what ALS is?

SPEAKER_01: 1:47

Yes, it's a motor neuron disease. Um, it affects it affects how the nerves communicate with the muscles in your body, and um your muscles basically uh deteriorate over time. Sometimes it takes a while, sometimes it goes really fast. Um the average lifespan they give you from diagnosis is three to five years. But that varies greatly, and what that also means is that the last year or two of those three to five years can be pretty dismal in terms of quality of life. You you you would be many people are reduced to uh living in a wheelchair, laying in a bed, not able to clothe or feet or themselves, get themselves around. They need help with every single thing they do. Um and so the quality of life, if if you have a life expectancy that has any kind of quality to it, it could be one to two years, three to four, two to three. It's it varies greatly. And um, so the muscles basically quit working. Mine began in my fingers and hands and arms, and that's pretty much where it's stayed. I've had it for a couple of years now. So in ALS years, those are long. Um mine is progressing uh slower than most.

SPEAKER_03: 3:07

Okay. So I have a couple questions about your illness. Um I'm sure you have days where you feel off physically. I mean, you're all over the place online. You've you've you've been a guest on several podcasts. I mean, probably more than several now by by this time. Uh, but do you ever have days when emotionally you just can't do it? Like, you know, how do you handle those days where you're just kind of, uh, I don't really feel like I can do it today?

SPEAKER_01: 3:40

Well, yeah, that's a good question, Alexis. And I have had several of those days. Um a lot of times it's not as physically uh challenging. The day that I'm if I'm having a bad day, it's more mental than physical, emotional. So there's actually been a couple of times where I've had to cancel something that was uh because I didn't feel like I could give it uh my best. And I just I just don't want to do something that I'm just going through the emotions on. I mean, I've told my story enough. Now, when you said several podcasts, I think I've been on like 40.

SPEAKER_02: 4:14

Yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 4:16

And and I've told you know the same thing over and over and over again. So I know I could plug and play and and get through it, but I just don't want to do that. If I'm not, if I'm not, it's not like I need to be on, it's not a performance, but if I'm not feeling like I can genuinely um interact with someone, I just feel like it's better to reschedule it. And I've had to do that a couple of times. And it's actually it's only been the last couple of months um that I've had to do that. And I think it's related to the events going on around us in the world. Um, it's just taking a toll on me.

SPEAKER_03: 4:51

Right. Do you ever get overwhelmed and anxious by the ticking of the clock?

SPEAKER_01: 4:59

Yeah. Um when I first got the diagnosis, it was February 26th of 2019. And I was just, like I said, living a normal life. And very quickly after that, within a couple of weeks, I had made the decision to retire from the work I was doing. I'd made the decision to move out of my apartment, move in with friends in case I needed help managing life quicker than I thought I would. And I was gonna travel and do the things I wanted to do until until this thing got me, and then I would turn out the light. And so my initial response was an accelerated living mindset. Uh, I didn't know if I had a year or two or three or five. I didn't know what that year would look like. I didn't know if I'd be dead by this time or in a wheelchair. So I really had a lot of uh uh anxious, not anxious anxiousness, but I was anxious to get about living because I didn't know how long I had. Now as it's as it's dragged on for a year now, and I've done dying out loud for over a year and been active in things like this and in traveling and speaking until COVID shut us down. Um I wasn't as anxious because I was really in enjoying and energized. I was enjoying what I was doing, and I was energized by the connection with the people and the responses I was getting from people. And but when COVID hit and we had to cancel every I was supposed to be in what is this, June 2nd? Um, yeah, I was supposed to be in Europe this time. Um and Amsterdam and England and Munich and France and all of the fun places, right? Well, yeah, and speaking at meetings and meeting people that had brought me in to speak and all that had to be shut down. So yeah, now I'm feeling a little bit of the closing up of the of the calendar, if you will. And realizing that I'm feeling uh feeling like these are months that I don't get back. You know, it's it's not like I can pause this and pick it up a year from now and not miss a beat. A year from now I may be more compromised than I well, I'm most likely going to be more compromised than I am now. So yeah, that's a challenge. It's been a mental, it's been a mental challenge for me for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 7:15

So I know this might seem like a funny question, but if I were just to ask you and you could just give me your interpretation, what is the meaning of life?

SPEAKER_01: 7:29

Well, philosophers have debated that since the dawn of man, since you know, since Noah came off the boat, I guess. Um that didn't happen, by the way. Yes. Um just for your listeners who don't know me very well, they go, wait, what? He believes that shit? Right. Um, to me, I think, you know, what is the meaning of life? I really do believe that is an individual's choice to make. Um, it's not upon us, me or you or anyone, to tell someone else this is what you need to make life look like. This is what life needs to be for you. I think we get to make our own meaning, and that's the beauty of free thinking and exiting Christianity is you don't have a deity or spiritual authorities telling you what your meaning of life should look like, what your life should be about. You get to decide what you want that to be. And and for me, it is um the the magic of the moments. And that sounds like a a song title or a cliche, but I I began to live that way when I rebooted my life after I left my marriage a few years ago and and decided I was gonna live the best life I could live until I ran out of life. And um for me it was a realization that life is really nothing more than a collection of moments, that we don't remember days, we remember moments. And that's really true about my life as I look back on it. There are moments that stand out big and small. They could be a moment uh on a mountaintop in Italy, or they can be a moment gathered around a fire with drinks and friends converse conversing and laughing and crying together. For me, that is the essence of life, that's the beauty of life. And I've had people, you know, I've gotten messages from people uh after a show or QA at a at a meeting. I'm thinking of two different instances where they really were uh, you know, nihilist, I guess, uh like saying, What's the point of all this? What we we live, we have some years, then we die. What's the point? And for me, the point is what you make it, and for me, the point is those years, those moments that you get to live, and those the beauty of those moments and what you make of them.

SPEAKER_03: 9:42

So a little bit about, you know, you you told me you used to be a uh used to be a Christian, used to be a pastor for, you know, for decades. Can you tell me just a little bit about that and a little bit about your uh your deconversion?

SPEAKER_01: 9:59

Yeah, I was caught up in the Jesus movement back in the 70s. I'm an I'm an old fart, so I've been around a while. But back in the 70s, the Jesus movement kind of followed on the heels of the 60s and the hippie movement. And what we what we essentially were is hippies with salvation. And it was all about um a relationship with Jesus. It was all personal. It wasn't about church or religion. In fact, you know, we we kind of looked down our nose at our organized religion in church, you know, it was all about this relationship with this exciting itinerate preacher named Jesus who came into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. And we prayed in tongues and we believed in miracles, and we really believed that the Bible was the inspired word of God. And that was that encapsulated my life from the age of 18 to the age of about 50, 55 or 54. So the the better part of three decades. Um, you know, I married in that faith, I raised kids in that faith. I was uh a pastor many of those years on staff at several different churches in Arkansas and Tennessee. And um I was very serious about it and very involved in every aspect of it. It wasn't a peripheral thing for me, it was the center of our lives. And um so me coming to the to the end of that was a very disorienting and traumatizing time for me. That was uh about 2010, somewhere in the middle of 2010, when I came to the conclusion after a year or year and a half of analyzing my faith, I came to the conclusion it wasn't true and it wasn't real, and I let it all go.

SPEAKER_03: 11:40

So your diagnosis came after the deconversion, correct?

SPEAKER_01: 11:46

Yes, a good many years after. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 11:49

Okay. So a question that I have regarding that is how did you manage grief of the diagnosis when you and your family have conflicting beliefs?

SPEAKER_01: 12:03

Well, I managed it on my own, pretty much. Um, I I have a a really good community of friends in Nashville, uh, where I call home. I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina, with my girlfriend now and where I live here, but but my community, my hometown, where I was last year when this diagnosis came was uh Nashville. And I have a large group of people there that I'm very close with. Most of us are ex-Christian atheists or agnostics. And um they really rallied around me. They, you know, uh the idea that family is everything, the idea that blood is thicker than water, I think those ideas need to be challenged. There's there's nowhere that that's written in stone that that has to be the case. Oftentimes it can be, but oftentimes it's not. And I think we try to maintain that sense of loyalty or sense of connection to our own detriment many times. And um and so we have to decide what kind of quality of life we're gonna live and what kind of person we're gonna be. Um, when I exited Christianity, a lot of my friends left me and some of my family removed themselves from me and became more distant, some cut me off completely. But it it affected relationships because we didn't connect on a on a really important level. And if if you're really serious about your Christianity, you're gonna have a hard time having a good, solid, close relationship with an avowed atheist. So I understand the disconnect, um, but it it it didn't change how I wanted to go about my life. I wanted to live my life in an honest and authentic way. So the grief of the diagnosis was more, I really don't remember feeling a lot of grief, actually, not a lot of sadness. It was more like a an acceptance, uh a realization that my life is now changing, and I I gotta decide what I want that to look like. And so I just kind of buckled up and said, okay, here we go. And told family and friends, and and you know, that some responded in one way and some responded in another, but it was pretty much on me to make the best of that.

SPEAKER_03: 14:19

I guess a question I would really like to ask is, you know, you deconverted and you said people treated you differently. How were you treated by like your close friends and family after this happened?

SPEAKER_01: 14:34

It varied. Um, it varied greatly. I have several what I call holdover friends that used to be in church with me. And some of them, I was their pastor uh for for some years. And some of them were able to navigate my changes with me. Now they may still hold their faith, or they may, some do and some don't. Some have kind of drifted from theirs as well, but some would maintain their identity as a Christian, just like I did. But they're able to embrace who I am as a person and overlook our different opinions about God. Um, others weren't able to do that, so they've had to just kind of drift away. Others were more adamant in I can't be your friend anymore, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03: 15:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 15:24

I never, not once have I ever told anyone I can't associate with you because of this or that. I've maintained the position and I still do, that if you can accept me for who I am and allow me to be myself around you, then we can do life together. But if you can't, that's not my problem, it's yours. And I'm not gonna let you make it my problem.

SPEAKER_02: 15:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 15:48

And that and that includes my daughters, who for a short time prior to my deconversion, even and during my earliest years, were pretty much shunning me almost completely. Um, as in, you know, if I saw one of them or their husbands in a public place, they would look the other way and walk away. You know, that level of shunning it lessened over time where they would, you know, if I saw them at a Starbucks or something, they would greet me and and make nice, but we wouldn't have any point of connection, no real relationship.

SPEAKER_03: 16:23

So as an estranged person myself, I can probably guess a few reason reasons why they would, you know, project that kind of attitude towards you. Why do you think that they turned their backs on you in public? Were they, do you think that they are embarrassed, or is that something that they are doing because they're holding fast to what they believe?

SPEAKER_01: 16:44

Yeah, it's a learned behavior. I mean, shunning is an attitude, it's an action that has to be taught. It's not a natural inclination from anyone, I believe. I believe there are spiritual leaders who put that in you. And um, that's that was the case in our family. The shunning actually happened. I was on staff at a church outside Nashville, Tennessee, and I was an associate pastor there, and I was assigned to one of their satellite congregations, which is what megachurches do now. And so I was doing really well with that congregation. It grew from 50 people to 250 people in a year, and I was a very successful, by any measure, pastor. People love me, all those things. And the senior pastor was a very narcissistic, controlling, manipulative person who began to run his church more and more like a cult as time went on. We'd been there for years, but it became more and more cultish. And he and I were button heads because I didn't suck up to our narcissistic leaders have to be sucked up to.

SPEAKER_03: 17:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 17:49

Trump, Trump.

SPEAKER_03: 17:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 17:51

Um, and and so I didn't do that very well. And so he and I butted heads, and then they they let me go. I was fired from that job. And my daughters were raised and married, or just you know, are raised and married, but even that, you know, 10 years ago they were they've been married a long time. And their husbands were in an intern program being groomed to be pastors, and so they were very much involved in the inner circle, and the pastor was always stroking them, and they were stroking the pastor, and all those things were going on. And so when I when I got on the outs with the pastor, he began to really turn them against me, and he would have meet meetings and and lambast me publicly and tell the girls what a bad person I was and how they needed to shun me. And so they were taught that was ingrained in the culture of that church for someone, if if someone was in a in opposition to the spiritual authority, they were in opposition to God.

SPEAKER_03: 18:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 18:50

And so my daughters were put in the position of basically having to choose between God and their dad. And this was while I was still a believer, mind you. I was still married very much following the Bible and teaching and preaching the word and doing all the Christian things that I'd always done. And they began to shun me and my wife at that point. Um we'd gone we'd gone to a different church and was getting involved in a different church for another year or so before I'd left faith altogether. But even during that time, we were being shunned. And and then when I told my girls that I was no longer a Christian, they their their attitude shifted from shunning to more of a position of we believe you're in rebellion against God, and until you repent and return to God, we can't, in good faith, have a relationship with you because that's going to enable your sin. It's going to send you the message that we're okay with your atheism.

SPEAKER_03: 19:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 19:49

So that's the gist of their position now. That's been that that way for the last seven or eight years. So it's not a classic shunning, one of my daughters I can call and talk. To on the phone. The other one doesn't connect with me at all. I have seen them from time to time randomly over the last seven or eight years, but it's always accidentally, so to speak. I'm not welcome in their home. They were never in my home when I was married. The grandkids were never in our home. I've got six grandkids between my two daughters. My son was away at college when this all happened at the church. So he didn't adopt that position. He was always fine with me. He and I've maintained a relationship all through my deconstruction process. And now he and his wife, I don't know what they would identify as, but I know that they're not involved in church and and I don't think that they believe much of the same things they used to, although they met at a Christian college, an evangelical Christian college. And and but they live in New York City and and so they're quite liberal and quite woke.

SPEAKER_03: 21:01

Yeah. I have a a niece out in in New York City as well. She's just living with her partner, and I have seen her grow so much. Yeah. You know, yeah, and she's becoming her own person. She's kind of uh, you know, rolling with the punches, I guess you would say, you know, in life, and she's already way ahead more than I was at that age, and I'm just I'm really proud of her. So anyway, moving on, I don't want to talk too much about you know myself, but uh I I had another question, uh dealing with estrangement. Like, of course there's family estrangement, but when you leave a religious community, you basically uh I mean that's another thing, that's another form of estrangement, I guess. Because like you said, some people just basically shunned you and won't talk to you, and then other people seem like they just love you anyway and they don't care about shunning or anything like that. They don't see that that's you know, productive or practical. What was it like for you? I mean, did you feel like you lost your community?

SPEAKER_01: 22:13

Oh, very much so. Yeah. I was very involved with even as a pastor, when I was in ministry, I was a really a people person. I enjoyed connecting with people. I'd go to their homes and you know, I wasn't uh this uh out of touch kind of up on the pulpit kind of guy that people couldn't relate to. So uh I uh I yeah, I lost that community immediately and didn't have a replacement in place and I didn't know where to find one. And I began to search the internet and found the clergy project at first, and I I began to meet people in the Middle Tennessee area that that I met through the clergy project and then through other online forums that I would I would realize, oh, you live over there. Well, let's get together for coffee, let's have a drink, right? And so I've started building community that way, and it and it it happened person by person, and some of my best friends to this day, people that have told me they want to be there on the day that I die, that kind of friend.

SPEAKER_03: 23:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 23:16

I just get emotional when I think about that. Um yeah, yeah, they they're the the quality of people in my life now, and most of them are uh ex-ministers that I met through the clergy project. I'm thinking of one, two, three, four, four guys in in in particular.

SPEAKER_03: 23:33

So they get it.

SPEAKER_01: 23:35

They get it, they totally get it. And it and it makes it, it's it's a it's a kind of identity that you can't you can't replace. Uh, for someone to to know those levels of of uh change that we go through. People that have never been there, it's a totally different world. I mean, my girlfriend Bevin, she's she doesn't adhere to Christianity, but she she never was deeply ingrained in an evangelical cult, if you will. You know, her brushes with Christianity were very uh light, maybe in college and then early adulthood with her kids and you know, wanting her kids to experience some church life and maybe an episcopal church or something, you know, what I would call Christianity light. She never got indoctrinated. So she has seen this and she's learned of it over the last year, meeting a lot of my friends. But at first she was like, wow, I had no idea. I had no idea there was this kind of trauma associated with letting go of something like that.

SPEAKER_03: 24:36

Yep, yep. No, I experienced that too when I left. I had no idea how much I had been damaged in that kind of environment. I had no idea, and it just came tumbling down on me one day. And it just it really hit me. Did you suffer like an identity crisis after that? I mean, is it is it true? Once a preacher, always a preacher, kind of thing, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 25:03

Well, for several years, I was I was working in the insurance business and I was just minding my business and selling insurance and making a good living. My I was still married at the time. My wife remained a Christian, and she but she watched me go through the process. She understood that it wasn't something I just chose to do one day. It was something that basically happened to me, for lack of a better term.

SPEAKER_03: 25:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 25:30

It wasn't a decision, it was a conclusion. And so I was very much out of the limelight. I uh I didn't get on the ex-Christian atheist speaker circuit like you know, some people I've met. I didn't go out looking for a platform. I was content just to be quiet and mind my own business, but I didn't have the community, I didn't have an outlet. So there were several really sad years for me. I didn't have a relationship with my daughters and wasn't seeing my grandkids. And I was looking in my mid-50s at what's the balance of my life gonna look like here? I'm gonna work another 10 years or so and then retire and then do what? Right. Um, you know, uh uh I I did not connect with my wife anymore. It wasn't like we were enemies or hateful or fighting, it just was no point, no point of connection and no identification with each other's world. She would go and do her church stuff, and I would stay home and and we had some more we had some uh friends that that were common and we would do some things with them, but my life felt very empty. And there were times when like at Thanksgiving or Christmas or something, we'd have some other of her family or other people over and they would have to do a prayer, and I would feel awkward, and and I it got to where I didn't feel like I could be myself in my own home.

SPEAKER_03: 26:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 26:50

And so I I just had to leave. I had to I had to reboot my life at that point, and when I did that, it was a process of really working through emotionally and mentally, starting over my life and letting go of some hopes. I had to let go of the in terms of estrangement, I had to let go of this thing that had been captivating me of trying to get my daughters back, trying to win their favor again and trying to improve things. I fought for several years toward that, and it was futile and it was very discouraging, and it led me into some depression. And I I just thought I've got to take the pen back and write my own story. I'm letting this estrangement write my story for me, and I didn't like the way the story was going, and and and that's why I made some changes.

SPEAKER_03: 27:45

Okay. So I guess while we're kind of on topic, um, I guess a question that would maybe put things in better perspective for some of our listeners is how did leaving the church affect your mental health? Because I mean, you said you experienced depression. I mean, you you tried to stay connected with your family. Um, whenever things didn't go the way that you'd hoped, how did that affect you?

SPEAKER_01: 28:11

Yeah, it was a disappointment. I wasn't as mad about it. I was there was some anger and feeling like I'd been duped and tricked into something that wasn't true, although I had no one to hold accountable except myself. No one, you know, did it to me.

SPEAKER_02: 28:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 28:26

But I I did feel more sadness than anger alone, and I felt disoriented. Um, so there were a few years there. Depression is maybe too strong a word, a blanket of sadness that uh kind of hung over me. I wasn't, you know, I was functional, I was living life, I hang out with neighbors and I would socialize with people on a real surface level. Um, but I lacked, uh I missed the depth of relationship that I had found in the church around a common theme.

SPEAKER_02: 28:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 28:57

And so finding the ex-Christian atheist community and building it, so to speak, even has been a very rewarding and encouraging time for me. And that that's mostly been in the last five years or so, 2015 forward, really more so in the last three years, I would say.

SPEAKER_03: 29:18

Uh, the next question I have is, you know, has anything from your former belief or your former religion has any of that stuck with you? I mean, did it teach you anything?

SPEAKER_01: 29:31

Honestly, I I think any values from my former faith that I carry now are basic human values. I I've said many times that I feel like I'm much more moral as an atheist than I was as a Christian. And to give that context, what that means to me is I don't act any differently. I'm not any more kind, I'm not kinder or more generous or more loving, but I no longer look at people through the same lens. I don't look at people through the lens of are you saved or lost? Are you right or wrong? Are you black or white? Are you in or out of the club? Uh I don't need to try to change you. I don't need to change how you think or how you believe. I'm okay with you being you, it doesn't matter to me. Whereas before, I wouldn't have treated the person with disdain or disgust or been mean to them, but I would have looked at them as somehow flawed, broken, because you don't share my belief about a deity.

SPEAKER_03: 30:34

Right. When you left the church, were there any hopes that you lost?

SPEAKER_01: 30:42

Hmm. Um I I wasn't ever a big, oh my god, I can't wait to get to heaven guy. And long before I let go of faith altogether, I had pretty much let go of the idea of hell. I found it to be repugnant and disgusting, the idea that a God that we would serve would create a place called hell that a majority of the people would end up in. Um so I think I held the idea of heaven pretty loosely because if you really analyze it from the biblical viewpoint, the the idea of heaven is very confusing. Is it New Jerusalem? Is it a new heaven on a new earth? Is it paradise? Is it in the clouds? Who's there? How do you get there? What are you gonna do when you're there? Are you gonna play golf? Are you gonna sing Hosanna forever? It's so confusing, and there's so many different conflicting ideas. Right. So I was never all about heaven, I was more about Jesus wants to make this life and and your life prosperous and good and healthy, and he wants to help you do life better, help you in your relationships, help you with your kids, help you in your job. So that was my focus as a pastor and as a Christian. So the hopes that I had were were again, they've translated it into a secular life because they're still the same. Right. I want to I want to help people any way I can to enjoy the life that we're living and the moments that we have. And that's really what the dying out loud message is. It's really about living out loud, and it's what I talk about, and it's the messages I get from people have to do with how that's resonated with them in helping them add to the quality of the life that we know we have. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 32:27

If you are experiencing estrangement from a family member and would like to be a guest, please email us at wtbb podcast at gmail.com. Your privacy is important to us. Guests have the option to remain anonymous.

SPEAKER_03: 32:44

So when you left the church, what hopes did you gain from that?

SPEAKER_01: 32:52

Um, I think hopes, I don't know that I would classify this as hopes, but I when I let go of Christianity and the idea of a deity and a God that's out there doing something for us or that we're accountable to, I think the beauty of letting go of that is just coming to the realization that this is what we are, this is who we are, this is what we have, this is the one life we have, we're responsible for ourselves. And that's good when when you do well, and it's bad when you do bad. But you can't blame anybody for your mistakes. And you but on the flip side of that, when you do well, you get to give credit to yourself. I did well, I made a good decision, I did a good thing. That was on me. So that's a a win, in my opinion. That's a gain when you when you know that when you learn that you're the one that's in charge of your own life and you get to make it what you want it to be. That's a beautiful realization and it's liberating.

SPEAKER_03: 33:54

So, what would you say to someone who's recently left the church or left, you know, that kind of group and finds themselves in a situation similar to yours?

SPEAKER_01: 34:05

Well, the first thing I would say to, and I say this to many of them because I hear from a lot of them, um, is be patient with yourself. Um, it's it's a process. You don't wake up one day and all better. Uh, there's a lot of loss associated with leaving your faith, especially if your family's all in it and you're losing family members, and there's you have to figure out how to who you who you can be out to and how you come out and when you come out, and and broken relationships and judgment from people and accusations from people. There's a lot to deal with. So, my first thing is be patient with yourself. It will get better. The the further you get removed from this, the better you're gonna feel about yourself, the more clearer you're gonna see things more clearly. You're gonna you're gonna not have as much emotion tied up into it as as you do right on. I mean, 10 years out from it now, there's no emotion uh attached to it with me. If I'm talking to someone about a former faith, I heard from a former church member just the other day, a few weeks ago, that had heard me on a show and reached out and said, Oh my God, is that D Dave Warnock that I that was my pastor, you know, and and she had let go of faith years ago, and we were talking about the the nonsense that went down that last year, and there was no emotion attached to me. I was just like, it was like I was watching a crazy movie that I was the star of. Yeah. And and so that's what I tell people. It's gonna get better. You're you're gonna find people like-minded. One of my great joys now is connecting people. I just fucking love that. And so I'll hear from people that'll reach out and I'll say, Where are you? and I'll I'll find out where you are. And then I say, Well, I I just spoke to a so-and-so that lives in your same area. Let me connect you two, and they'll have coffee and they'll get back to me. And I just, and they, you know, they lived 20 minutes apart from each other and didn't know it. And they were both looking, they were both looking for someone that they could hang out with. And, you know, a small town East Texas, I'm thinking of one example, these two women that lived in East Texas and didn't have an atheist ex-Christian community there, and and each of them independently had uh reached out to me and I said, I know where you are, because my brother pastors a church in East Texas. So I know that area really well. And I said, Well, I know someone just down the road from you, you guys should have coffee. And they did, and it was just lovely. And so I just love connecting people. I think that's one of the best things that we can do for each other.

SPEAKER_03: 36:48

So you said that now being 10 years out of this religion, you said you didn't really have, you know, the emotional part kind of isn't really there anymore. But do you have any uh post-evangelism guilt? I mean, you were a pastor for a long time, preaching these things that you now no longer believe. Do you have any, you know, guilt or you know, what are your feelings about that? Do you have any regrets that you about the way that you raised your children?

SPEAKER_01: 37:17

No, I don't. And and um I I I came upon a Maya Angelou quote last year, and I I refer to this a lot to explain your question or to explain my answer to your question. And her her uh her quote is this it simply says, do the best you can do until you know better. And then when you know better, do better. And I find that to be a very, very liberating way to live. And it it it removes from me the need to feel regret. I think regret is a very costly emotion. Um, I might wince when I think back, you know, I did, I said this and did that, but I knew, I know now that what I felt then was that I was doing the best I could. I was doing what I genuinely thought was best. Same with raising my daughters in that faith. I I was doing and and uh living it in the best way that I could and raising them the best way that I could. Now I see differently. I feel like, oh, I've had some light shined on an area and I think I see better and I'm gonna do better. So I don't look back and go, oh my God, what what was wrong with me? I don't rack myself with guilt and regret because I know that I was doing the best I could. And I and that's the way I look at them. In terms of estrangement, I don't look at my daughters and say, My God, how can they do this? And you know, other people say that to me and I say, No, no, no, don't do that. They're doing the best they can. Right. They're doing, they're living their faith in the best way they know how, and they're being very genuine with it. Right. And I don't fault that a bit. I really don't.

SPEAKER_03: 38:52

Okay. So so when I became estranged from my family, I was also kind of struggling with my faith at the same time. And at the time, you know, I had a lot of anger and stuff towards my parents for how they raised me. But then I had to remember I was a parent and I had been raising my children the same way. And so it was easier for me to let go of any kind of accusations I had on them because yeah, they they thought that they were doing the right thing. They still think that they're doing the right thing. And even though that's hard to hear, it's almost easier because I know that they still have a potential for growth and they still have a potential to come to these conclusions on their own. And uh so yeah, it helps me feel better. So in terms of estrangement, I have a I have a couple questions. I I don't know, are your parents still living or have they since passed?

SPEAKER_01: 39:49

I have um two dead dads. I have a birth father and a stepdad who raised me. My parents split up split up when I was about eight. And uh my birth father died last year. I was not in a relationship with him for years. He left and really didn't show back up at all. My stepdad died a few years ago, about four years ago, uh, right about the time uh, well, I was already deconverted, but um I was still married when he died. And so it was shortly after uh that that I left the marriage. So I've got a mom, my mom is still alive and she's very much a Jesus uh person. She loves Jesus, loves church. Very concerned for me and my soul. And she doesn't berate me about it and she doesn't harp on it, but you know, and not so much in the last year. Uh maybe a couple years ago, she would make a statement of wanting me to watch a certain God's Not Dead movie, or when I'd see her, you know, I'm I'm I'm really praying for you. I remember one instance where she said, I'm really praying for you, Dave. And I and I said, Huh, that's okay, mom. I'm doing really well. I'm really happy. Well, you you're not doing well if you're not in the kingdom. And that was about as that was about as hard as she pushed. And and then I just said, Well, mom, I'm really doing okay. And I left it at that. Right. So it's not an antagonistic relationship.

SPEAKER_03: 41:11

She can either accept it or not.

unknown: 41:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 41:14

It's just, I feel I, yeah, and I feel bad for her that she's letting herself be all torn up about something that's not even real. I mean, I I've I I've said, Mom, I'm not going to hell. I'm okay. And and that's the thing. I I just, you know, the the reality, if you really analyze why someone like my mom would be unhappy with my atheism, it has to boil down because she thinks that I'm that my eternal soul is in danger. And and so there's there's where the idea of hell is such a repugnant notion. If if people let go of eternal damnation or eternal life, if if we just looked at life through the lens of knowing that, okay, we we are in life together, why would it matter what I believed or didn't? She shouldn't be concerned at all. If I'm happy and healthy and treating people well and not doing bad things, just living life and what difference does it make to someone whether I believe or not?

SPEAKER_03: 42:16

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01: 42:18

It has to it has to be because they want me to go to heaven and don't want me to go to hell. So uh if you take those equations out of it, we'd all get along better, I think.

SPEAKER_03: 42:30

So so do you still currently you you still have a relationship with your mom then? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 42:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 42:38

That's good. That's good that you can still, you know, have a relationship despite your different beliefs.

SPEAKER_01: 42:46

I mean, you know, I've my older brother is an evangelical pastor in East Texas, my younger brother lives in Texas, my sister lives in Texas, they're all conservative evangelicals. Um so in this day and age, that means that there's a great gulf there. There's not much we can talk about. I mean, they just they just see the world 180 degrees differently than I do. And and you know, we are living in the most polarizing times I've ever seen in my life. Um literally, I mean, you you either hate Trump or you love it. I mean, there's hardly any middle ground.

SPEAKER_03: 43:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 43:23

And and and so, yeah, it causes a lot of division in families. It causes uh more of a of a divide than there ever used to be, not just with religion, but with with a worldview that's be becoming increasingly divided.

SPEAKER_03: 43:39

So you mentioned you have children, you have a son and and two daughters. You you mentioned that you have do you still have communication with your son? Is your son still in your life?

SPEAKER_01: 43:50

Yes, very much so. He and I are good, good, good, good. We've never there never was, I mean, it was a difficult time when I got when I left the marriage and got divorced. He was a little bit upset at me at that point. But um, he's come to understand my deconversion. He's come to uh truly uh understand it, embrace it, he and his wife both. Um so yeah, we've we've had a good relationship all through the time.

SPEAKER_03: 44:14

So it sounds like he's still he's still a believer, I guess, if you call it.

SPEAKER_01: 44:19

No, I'm not well they they pretty much live as a non-believer. I don't know if I think the last time we really had a conversation about it, they identified more as we think maybe there's something out there of some sort, but definitely not a biblical Christian. No, definitely not.

SPEAKER_03: 44:38

And your daughters, you mentioned you talk to one of your daughters on the phone, but the other one isn't in communication with you.

SPEAKER_01: 44:44

Well, uh, they've um handle it differently. They and they each have to people have to do what's what's best for them. I think some people estrange themselves from family members from a defense mechanism. It's just an easier way to deal with it. And um, I think that's my middle daughter, I think that's her MO is just to avoid it, is just easier for her. Uh, my older daughter is is more uh able to engage with me and not and not feel traumatized or challenged or anything. Not that I would I don't get into conversations with them about it. I just want to, you know, be cordial and be in their lives. And they have to do they have to do that in whatever way that they can. And I don't fault them for it. I understand it, and it's just it's just sad to me. But I've accepted it for what it is, and I've been able to move on with my life. I um my middle daughter moved to Minnesota last year from Middle Tennessee. We were living in the same town, um, and I wasn't seeing them, but when they were moving, and this was after my ALS diagnosis, they agreed to see me for coffee one day um before they moved. This was last summer. And so I remember feeling nothing about that. I remember feeling before the meeting, not being anxious. I wasn't worked up, I wasn't putting a bunch of, oh my god, this is amazing. I I can't I can't wait to see what happens after this. It wasn't anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 46:16

It was just kind of it is what it is, right?

SPEAKER_01: 46:18

Exactly. I was able to enjoy conversing with them. We talked about our she's actually dealt with cancer for the last four years and has been some in some pretty bad shape. She's doing well now. But anyway.

SPEAKER_03: 46:31

Remission.

SPEAKER_01: 46:31

Remission, thank you. I just went blank for a minute. Um, so we were able to talk about our different ailments and uh, you know, that kind of thing. It was and and they're they're moving to Minnesota because her husband's in med school at the Mayo Clinic. So we were talking about a lot of medical stuff and you know how the kids do and that sort of stuff. But it was very light, it was very easy. I didn't feel anxious about it, and then when they left, I went home and that was it. I didn't think, well, this is gonna well, now what's gonna happen? I didn't think anything. And it took me a lot of work mentally and emotionally to get to that place where I was able to just disconnect, not attach myself to any kind of expectations, right, and just allow it to be whatever it was. And it felt really good.

SPEAKER_03: 47:18

So was that the last time you heard from her?

SPEAKER_01: 47:21

Uh yes. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03: 47:23

If you knew that she was listening right now, do you have anything you'd like to say to her?

SPEAKER_01: 47:30

Well, I always do these with that in mind because when you put this out there, I don't know, you don't know who's gonna listen. Right. And I always I'm always very careful to try not to say anything that would hurt them or offend them or to make it feel like I'm casting any kind of stones because I've made my share of mistakes and I've I wasn't I I was as good a dad as I could be. I was trying as hard as I could, but I wasn't a perfect dad. And you know, I would say to them, you know that, and I've always owned that, and I've always done the best I could, and when I when I messed up, I owned it. And I I've I still do that now. Um and so I'm always talking about these issues with that in mind that if they do hear it, they're not gonna hear me coming across as an angry dad or an angry atheist who's who's condemning their behavior. I totally understand it, but what I would say to you girls is it doesn't have to be this way. We can get along, we can disagree, we can share some aspects of life, even though we may disagree on some fundamental core issues. We can still be good people to one another, we can still treat each other with kindness and respect. And I'm not gonna get any demons on your kids. So if if there's that thinking, I don't know, but there there are no evil spirits lurking around me that are gonna jump on your kids if they're around me.

SPEAKER_03: 48:55

Right. I guess in in terms of moving on, you know, you said that life is is more, it's not really a collection of days, it's a collection of moments, and those moments make us who we are. How is your life now? Like you you talked a little bit about how you know you kind of had to rebuild your community. Who is your support system in your life right now?

SPEAKER_01: 49:19

Well, my girlfriend Bevan is primarily that person. She's my person, and um my my community in Nashville has has still is is my support group. That's that's my people, that's my community. That's I mean, that's just my family. That's that's who you know, you get to redefine your family. Like I said earlier, we don't have to live by some antiquated notion that doesn't work for us.

SPEAKER_03: 49:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 49:46

Um, especially if if had people in your life is people in your life are causing stress and anxiety, if they're toxic, you have every right to cut them out of your life. Um and and and so there's you should feel no guilt for for that.

SPEAKER_03: 50:03

A question back from you know, receiving your diagnosis, did did anyone who had previously been in no contact with you because of your deconversion, did anybody kind of pop back up again after you were diagnosed? Did anybody come back and say, Oh, you're sick, so now I'm here? Or, you know, did that change any of your relationships, your diagnosis?

SPEAKER_01: 50:26

No, I can't say it did. I mean, I was pretty much in relationship with whoever would accept me as an atheist. I was always open to that. And so when now I did see a difference in how people responded to my diagnosis in in that the atheist community, the secular people who view this one life as it, they were much more uh present, much more available, much more um running toward me rather than keeping their distance from me. I think the Christians, the Christians don't quite know what to do with it, I think, uh, because they don't know how to factor God into it. With the kind of Christianity that I was in, you had to factor God into everything. Where's God in this? What's God saying? What's God doing?

SPEAKER_02: 51:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 51:14

And with something like this, an atheist who gets a terminal disease who, if he doesn't repent, is probably gonna go to hell, but he's my friend, so I don't know what to say, I don't know what to do, he's my brother. How do I treat this? How do I act react to this? I think there's so much confusion around that, it's just easier to stay away.

SPEAKER_03: 51:33

Right. Do you have any resources to recommend to someone who's left the faith?

SPEAKER_01: 51:41

Recovering from religion. Okay. Very, very good organization. My good friend Daryl Ray founded that, and I'm connected with them. I refer people to them. They do incredible work all around the world. They have online chats. You can get on and chat with someone, you can talk on the phone with they have uh trained agents or counselors, if you will, not not like psychologists, but trained in terms of how to help people who are coming out of everything from you know how to find community, how to deal with family members, how to come out, when to come out, all those things.

SPEAKER_03: 52:19

And you mentioned the clergy project also.

SPEAKER_01: 52:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 52:24

I've heard about that. Can you tell a little bit about what that is?

SPEAKER_01: 52:28

Yes, it's an online forum for clergy who no longer believe in a deity. That's the broad definition. And it doesn't, it can include former clergy like myself or or people who are still in ministry. I know of several friends of mine who lost their faith before they were able to exit the ministry, which is a very difficult place. So it's an online forum. You have to qualify for membership. There's a pretty strenuous uh checklist. You have to go through an interview. It's a very private uh endeavor because some people's some people would be exposed if if you know we have to protect the identity of some people.

SPEAKER_03: 53:12

Right. Another question is, you know, what is with ALS, I mean, uh like I said before, the the clock is constantly ticking. And, you know, with this whole COVID thing, you feel like you've been robbed, you know, from a little bit of you know things that you'd like to do. But what is the legacy that you hope to leave for your children and grandchildren and any children thereafter or for anyone listening?

SPEAKER_01: 53:39

Yeah, I don't want to even um delineate my children and grandchildren again. I think that falls it falls, it keeps us impressed in that family mindset, which I don't find helpful. I would rather just say for anyone that knew me, anyone that that I connected with at any point in life. My my legacy is a lot of what I'm doing now is is the dying out loud thing is is what I'm really happy to leave behind because um I I've found that it it has been such a good resource for so many people, and I've I've heard from so many people that have felt inspired by it. And so that's been a very gratifying surprise for me in this last year.

SPEAKER_03: 54:26

You know, when you were talking about, you know, all the things that, you know, kind of make you happy about this, you know, I I had a question, you know, what are some of the things that that bring you that bring joy to your life?

SPEAKER_01: 54:40

Hmm. Yeah, those are um varied. Uh there's a a wide variety of things that bring joy to my life. And I've had to shift that, you know. I sometimes I drive by a golf, I used to play golf, and I taught my son to play it. We played a lot of golf together, and I've enjoyed golf for years with friends, and I'll never hit another golf ball. Uh I just can't, I can't. My my my arms won't won't grip the club. I can't do it. And so I'll drive by a golf, a golf course this time of year, and I'll see the beautiful golf course, and and I'll just get this wistful longing for uh that kind of moment. If you've never played golf, it's hard to understand, but but a golfer will relate to this when you make contact and you hit that perfect shot and it and it just it's just this magical moment, and um that's gone. I'll never I had a guitar, a nice Martin D18, and I used to write and play songs, and and and I I will never do that again. So letting go of certain things have have caused me to move, remove those pleasures from my life. But the other pleasures, I'm an avid cigar smoker, so sitting down with with a cigar and a and a glass of bourbon and just listening to music or having a conversation with someone, as simple as that sounds, to me is one of the beautiful moments of of what I have left in my life. And you know, my girlfriend will get on me for smoking, and other people say you shouldn't smoke. And I'm thinking, at some point, if I quit doing everything, I've got life, but not I'm not living.

SPEAKER_02: 56:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 56:15

And and and so I want to maintain some kind of a balance between a living a life and staying alive. Yeah. And so there's a big difference in those two things.

SPEAKER_03: 56:25

So how, yeah, how does one live their best life? Like we know I we've heard a little bit how Dave lives his life, you know, dying out loud, but you know, how does anyone live their best life?

SPEAKER_01: 56:38

I think it's a struggle, honestly. It's not as easy as it sounds. I never want to make it sound like, oh, just do this. And that's we we we had a phrase that popped up early on in this dying out loud thing called what would Dave do? And we made these WWDD bracelets, and you can get them on our website, by the way. That was birthed out of our local meeting of ex-Christian atheists that we meet once a month in Nashville. We used to anyway. One of the ladies was just talking about how frustrating her day was. This is a meeting a few weeks after my diagnosis was made known, and everybody was really emotional about it and responding to it, reacting to it. And she was just talking about how she was letting the frustrations of the day get to her. And she's paused and said, Well, Dave wouldn't be upset about this. Dave, you know, has got bigger issues. Why am I letting this little petty thing ruin my day, that kind of thing? And so that's what what would Dave do, someone said, and then WWD and so bracelets were corn. But it's not that simple, you know. You you I would say, yeah, don't let the little petty things get to you. Grab the sunshine, positive thinking. All those things sound so cliche-ish, like I'm a positive mentality speaker. And I don't ever want to come across that way because I know it's not that easy just to shake off whatever's bugging you. But the reality, the reality is we kind of have to do that at some level, or life can grind you to powder. Especially, I mean, my God, this year, like we joked before you started recording. Can we just be done with this year, please? Um it just seems like one thing after another, and it's we've still got an election to get through. So holy shit. But yeah, you have to at some point back up in the midst of your day or week, your month, whatever, and say, What am I doing? How am I doing it? Is this the way I want to write my story? Is this the life I want to live? Uh, if not, whose fault is that? Who's gonna change that? I've got to change. Right. So it takes some self-reflection and some self-analysis, and that sometimes can be a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03: 58:48

So that kind of leads me to another question is how has your bucket list evolved since your deconversion and your diagnosis and now this whole COVID thing? I mean, how are things changing for you? And I mean, that must be kind of irritating. I mean, having to reprioritize all the time, it just seems like I've had to do a little bit of that myself. What's it like for you?

SPEAKER_01: 59:12

It's it's always a process of adjustment, and everyone has to do it, but an ALS person has to do it on a different level. We uh there's a uh saying that ALS stands for always losing something. And and it does feel that way. It does feel like you know, the losses mount up, but you have to find uh you have to find the gains, you have to find the wins. And sometimes they're a little harder, harder to find, and you've got to be more proactive about it. And so what we've done, and you know, mine are my bucket list has shifted. I mean, I'm still uh we're planning to jump out of an airplane. We've got uh skydiving lessons. I'm gonna scuba dive. That's exciting. I'm gonna do that. Yeah, no, I mean there are things that I can do that I'm that I'm gonna make sure I do.

unknown: 59:59

We're

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:00

Travel. We the meetings have gotten shut down. I doubt if we'll have any meetings scheduled till next year, but we're gonna we're actually leaving. Bevan and I are leaving middle of next week or late next week for a 10-day. We're gonna go out west to Grand Canyon and Bryce Canyon and just see some sites. I've never seen the Grand Canyon.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:18

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:19

So I feel like I need to do that before I die.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:21

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:23

I've been to Europe a couple times and I want to go back because it's I love exploring different parts of Europe. So we've got tickets purchased to Dublin and we're gonna spend a good deal of October over in Europe. Um we've got the beauty of this thing that's happened this last year is I've gotten connected with people all over the world who invite me to come stay, come see them. You know, when you're when you're in Dublin, let me buy you a pint. When you're in Munich, I want to buy you a drink. You know, so we're gonna do we're gonna do that as much as COVID would allow us. We're gonna do some things like that while I still can. So the bucket list has to change, but there should always be one.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:02

So are there any projects that you're working on right now that you'd like to tell people about? I've heard a buzz about a documentary, but I don't really know much more than that. So that is something I I do have questions about. But are there, you know, tell us a little bit about what you're working on right now that you would like people to know about.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:20

Yeah, there's a movie uh that's gonna come out starring Brad Pitt as me, and because the resemblance is startling. Really? Uh no.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:31

I couldn't have believed it. Oh my god, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:35

I'm working on a book. I've been working on that for the last year or so. There is, there has been some work on a documentary. We do have plans to do one. We haven't come to an agreement on on the shape of it or the tone of it yet. So that's kind of on a little bit of a stall. Um, because we can't do any work on it right now anyway. But yeah, we're we do want to tell the story in a couple of different formats.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:58

So so whose story are we telling? Your story, correct? Yes. Okay, okay. I'm just I'm interested because I'm kind of a documentary snob. Like that's like my guilty pleasure. So I was like, ooh, documentary. So you're working on a book and you're kind of developing an idea for a documentary.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:20

I had one guy I was working with, and we we'd actually he filmed some footage, um, some interview footage, and he made a trailer and it was a really good one, but we really could not agree on the tone of it. And it felt like I was he he was basically asking me to give up control of the storyline, which to a degree I understand because a documentary filmmaker does not want someone looking over his shoulder saying, no, no, no, this shot is better or whatever.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:45

And so, but I didn't I didn't want it to be about my death, I wanted it to be about my life. Exactly. And and and that's kind of where we differed. So right now we're just in the process of looking for the right connection for that documentary person, and then we're we do have footage, and we were constantly uh videoing and documenting the things that I'm doing, and we're gonna, you know, just shoot footage, what they what they call the b-roll, right? Um yeah, it's it's just we're just needing that right connection. So, where can people go to learn more about you, Dave? Dave Outloud.com is the website, and it's got links to all my other stuff. There's a Facebook page called Dying Out Loud, there's a Twitter and Instagram, there's uh all the things, uh, email, Patreon, all the things that you if you want to connect. I love to connect with people. Like I told you before, one of my favorite things to do, one of my great joys is uh, you know, when I connect with people through venues like this, and this has happened a lot this past year, and I'll find out, oh, you live so and so. So when we go to that town, when we were traveling, we would have these meet and greets, and I'd get to meet people that I'd chatted with online and gotten, you know, connected with online. And there's several people in Europe that we're looking forward to meeting. Um, you guys are out in uh Vancouver, uh Washington area, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:15

Uh yeah, we're just above the US border, actually, in two places. So so so yeah, like uh Vancouver area. When we get out, when we get out there, you and we'll all have drinks.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:26

Absolutely. And and that's my I just I just love that. Um, because the the humanity and the and the connection and and the interactions with people is just what it really fuels me. Um I guess I'm an extrovert in that respect because I've learned what they say is you're inner if you're energized by people, you're an extrovert. And if you yeah, so I am, and so this has been doubly hard for me to shut everything down and to isolate. So I drive Bevan crazy. But um no, that's that's uh I love to connect with people and they love and some of the show what's funny is I've got a couple of really good friends now in the Nashville area that I didn't know lived there until they heard me on a show and they realized I'm in Nashville, and so we got together and they became part of our local group, and they're what I'd call good friends.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:17

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:18

So it's neat to see how, you know, God just works connections in his mysterious way, doesn't he?

unknown: 1:05:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:27

Well, is there anything else that you'd like to tell our listeners before we kind of conclude things? I don't I don't want to miss anything. I don't want to leave anything out because you have so much good things to say, but you're kind of all over the internet too. So it's I wonder if that people have a chance to hear your story and you don't have to repeat yourself. But you know, what would you say to our listeners out there right now?

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:47

Well, it's just that. Um, if you want to know more about my journey, um, go to the website, daveoutloud.com. There's a link to all the different shows I've done, the speaking uh, there's YouTube videos of the speaking engagement. So there's there are places where I tell the story in more detail or different facets of it. Every show, you know, it's interesting because, like I said, I've done so many shows, and but everyone is completely different. And I just when I think, oh, and I'm gonna say the same thing over and over again, it's always different. And you've brought out some good angles too, uh Alexis. You had some good questions. So I realize it's never the same, and there's always another facet to it. Not that you want to know every detail of my life, listeners, but if there are questions and please reach out to me, um, send me a message, fend me on Facebook, Twitter, whatever. Let me know. You know, you heard me on the show, we'd love to connect with you. We will be traveling again, you know, probably not till next year, but I do believe I'll be able to travel another couple, three years based on how I'm going. And so I do believe we're gonna reschedule the things we had scheduled. I think I told you we had a conference scheduled in Vancouver in April that had to be canceled. Right. So yeah, I'm gonna be getting around to places again. And if you're in those areas, I tell the listeners to follow me and follow the calendar because we we post meetings, and then if you're in that area, we love to meet you. I love that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:16

Great. Well, Dave, I have to say that you know, at the beginning of our conversation, I was I I skipped this part because I didn't want to start talking too much and running my mouth, but we're I'm so excited to have you on the show. When I first learned about who you were, I was like, wow, I was somebody who really understands what you need to do in order to live your best life. And I I really want to extend that to my listeners because I mean, I'm sure you know as well as anyone that estrangement can bring swarms of grief and sadness and all these kinds of emotions. And it's very, very hard to kind of put those feelings aside and prioritize life in the moment. And so I'm really, really grateful to have you on this show. So I have to say thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:04

Well, thank you. I'm happy to be on it, and I really appreciate your um focus on this issue because it's it's a tough one. And and I do I want to say this to your listeners because it is around the estrangement topic. It's very easy to let yourself feel guilty for allowing estrangement, or if you are the one that had to initiate it because of toxicity in the relationship, it's easy for guilt to lodge there and that you're doing something wrong. And I just want to say that there's never any reason that you should put yourself in emotional harm or physical or mental harm for the sake of maintaining a relationship that's damaging. And I know you know that, but I know that people deal with with some false guilt in those regards because I've talked to too many of them. And there's a lot of there's a lot of depression and guilt that goes into that because they've had to or they've been cut off by family or they've had to cut family off. And I just want to say family is not always everything. Who made that up? It's not always the thing to be protected against all costs. That's not a thing. It doesn't have to be a thing, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:16

Well, thank you so much, Dave. I again thank you for being a guest on the show.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:21

You bet.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:22

We'll have to talk to you again soon. And yeah, as soon as you come out here, we're gonna go out for drinks and cigars.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:28

You bet.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:29

Okay. We'll talk to you soon, Dave. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:32

Thanks, Alexa.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:35

Links in this week's show notes. Please remember to like, follow, and share. Thoughts expressed by our guests do not necessarily reflect the views of WTVB or its affiliates. The views expressed on this show are opinion and experience based and are not intended as a substitute for therapy. Content should not be taken as medical advice and is here for informational purposes only. Please consult your healthcare professional for any medical or mental health related questions. Thank you for listening to When the Bell Breaks.