IF I Could Turn Back Time

Sometimes the caterpillar blossoms into a butterfly, only for circumstances to remind her that her wings came too late. Kreed Revere shares the story of how estrangement from her daughters forced her to embark on a courageous journey of transformation. Sadly, she’s learning that some damage can’t be undone by doing everything differently. Still, she remains hopeful that the sincerity of her approach will open the door to healing of her strained family relationships.


Books:

When Parents Hurt

Fault Lines

#PTSD  #estrangement  #trauma     #ReconnectionClub #drkarlpillemer

https://buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

The following is the Kingfisher Media Podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 0:20

You're listening to When the Bell Breaks, I'm your host, AC Fisher, and with me today is my co-host, Alexis Arrollin. Our guest today is Creed Revere. Creed, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01: 0:33

Thanks so much. I'm grateful to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 0:36

Welcome. Well, I have to say I'm really excited to have you because right off the bat, I just want to let everyone know that you are our first parent, estranged parent that we've had on the show. So a very extra special welcome to you for offering your time and uh for letting yourself become vulnerable during this time so we can talk about some of these issues. So thank you very, very, very much for being here. We really appreciate uh your presence here with us today. So I wanted to make sure that I got that across to everyone.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13

Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14

Um so really quickly, can you tell us a little bit about how you heard about the show and why you are here today?

SPEAKER_01: 1:23

Sure. Um AC contacted me. Um, he found my page on Facebook that I have for Estrange Moms. So I have a page and a support group through Facebook. And so that's how he located me. He sent an email and um asked if I myself or anyone in my support group would be willing to come on the show. And I said sure.

SPEAKER_03: 1:46

So that's why I made my way here. So we had a chat with you and we talked about some things. Uh, we could have talked all day. Um, I felt like we had a lot in common, even though we're kind of on different ends of things. Um, so I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about that. So you're an estranged mom. Can you you don't have to, you know, spend this whole entire episode talking about the details of your experience, but you know, could you share a little bit just to provide some context for us?

SPEAKER_01: 2:20

Sure. I'm actually uh reconciled with my my two daughters. I have two children and two daughters. Um, and I was um estranged from them for with one about a year and the other one about two years. Um, and that was about four years ago now. So um, and it came about what appeared to be in the beginning very unexpectedly, you know, I was um pretty much blown out of the water completely in panic shock mode when it first happened. Um, and looking back on it now, I realized that wasn't wasn't out of the blue. There's always a lead up to it. So um, but it was a hard, it was a hard, hard year in two years with with my oldest daughter. Um, and something that I can say now was the most difficult road I have ever traveled in my 52 years of living. So it was very hard. Um, but we're we're on the other side of that. And so I have I have a perspective that's pretty wide in that um, you know, I've I've experienced estrangement, um, we have reconciled, and I can say that reconciliation is not always what we think it may be, um, as moms, especially, or as a parent coming out of estrangement. Yeah. This um belief that we'll come back and be the way things used to be, and that's not the case. Um, so so yeah, I mean, I can go into as much detail as you want. I'm I'm open to sharing my story, but just let me know how much more you would like for me to share.

SPEAKER_00: 4:11

The first question that kind of jumps out at me is, you know, when you talk about the reconciliation and things not going back to like the way they were, I can understand this being uh kind of like surprising, maybe for all parties involved, but I can't help but wonder like, is this something that is disappointing that that things didn't go back to business as usual?

SPEAKER_01: 4:39

Well, I think that's it's twofold. Disappointing in that um I I don't feel as close to my children as I once thought that I was. Um, and so we've had to redefine our relationship with one another. And so that part's disappointing. The other side of that same coin is it's refreshing to know that we can have a do-over, if you will, um, but in a in a more healthy way of being in relationship with one another, um, for both, you know, as as mom and daughter, but also me as an individual, them as an individual as well. So I think it's a it's a mixed bag, as most of estrangement is and reconciliation can be as well. So does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00: 5:35

No, it actually answers it very well. You know, like sorry, I don't want to like completely hijack the interview here, but you've you've you've immediately piqued my curiosity here because I somewhat recently-ish reconciled with my mom after six years of of no contact. And you know, on the kids' end of the equation, I I feel a lot of what you're saying, you know, like we've come back together, but things aren't the way they were. But I can't say it's a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a thing. But I'm I often get stuck in this frame of mind where I wonder, like, if I had the ability to communicate with myself pre-estrangement, you know, what kind of message would I send back through time that might help me kind of cope with the process? Is there any of that sort of thought pattern with you, like in in relation to how you approached your relationships with your daughters pre-estrangement?

SPEAKER_01: 6:41

I don't know. I mean, obviously, there are things that I would do differently and would like to get a message out um to myself and to them if I could go back in time, so to speak. But I don't think that there's um, you know, it's such a such a convoluted experience. There's and it's so emotional. There are just so many layers to estrangement that it's hard to say, well, if I could have just said this to myself, you know, it would have fixed everything, or it would have never happened, or it would have been different, or we wouldn't have lasted as long, or you know, those types of things. It's really for me, it's really hard to say that there's just one or two layers to this. That's just for me, there's so, so many layers. Yeah. I know that that's not really answering your question, but I I don't think that for me, um, there's any one or two things that I could have gone back and said and it would have turned out any different.

SPEAKER_00: 7:48

I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01: 7:48

Yeah, same, same cookie, different shape.

SPEAKER_00: 7:51

I feel like you've done a great job of answering the question, actually.

SPEAKER_02: 7:54

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:56

I don't think that there is a clear answer. And I think that for anybody dealing with estrangement in any capacity, I don't think that they can really fully absorb how complicated these relationships are.

SPEAKER_03: 8:08

Yeah, because we get a lot of those questions of why can't you just talk? Why can't you just it's like you don't really understand it really is complicated and it's hard to sift through. And that's why, you know, a lot of us end up in counseling because we need someone to kind of help us figure this stuff out because it is hard to answer because it's a mixed bag, it's complicated, there are lots of layers, and it it takes time to even get to a point of reconciliation. And that was another question I I had for you is that you know, how how did you get there? I mean, who if you could answer really quickly, who initiated the no contact? Because that kind of puts things in perspective for uh AC and I. Um, because his mother initiated no contact with him. I initiated no contact with my parents. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't, but I'm just curious. Um, you know, who initiated no contact and then how did you reach a point of reconciliation with them?

SPEAKER_01: 9:12

Yeah. No, it's a great question. Um, my daughters initiated the no contact. So um I had prior to my um immediately prior to the estrangement, I had gone through, I was in a super stressful time in my life. I was going through um a separation with my partner. I had a super high stress job that was just making me crazy. Um, and my partner also found out um they had cancer um in the midst of all of this. So there there were so many emotions going on. And then about um it was right after the first of the year, um, we're almost actually at that anniversary date having this conversation today. Um wow. Yeah, I didn't happy anniversary. I didn't realize that until just now. Um but and then and then I it just stopped. There was um there was a conversation that um I had with my daughter via text, my oldest daughter via text, right before the estrangement happened. And she was concerned about my emotional state due to the stress and things that I was under. And um she asked me to take an action that I was not willing to take. And it was for it wasn't something that she wanted for herself, it was something she wanted for me, and I wasn't willing to do that. Um and within a few days, I was completely cut off. Um, no responses to phone calls, text messages, you know, blocked from Facebook, all social media. I just absolutely no contact. Um, and so it that went on for about six months or so, where I just had zero contact with them. Um, I did know through my parents that they were in contact with my parents, so I knew that they were okay. But that was one of my biggest things that I faced in the midst of my estrangement was the concern of are my kids okay? Yeah, because it went from regular contact to nothing overnight, seemingly overnight. So um that happened, and then about the six-month mark, my youngest one um she started to respond to some text that I sent. And we very, very sparse communication with her, and then that eventually led to communication um through email with my oldest, although those those communication um exchanges were not pleasant, they were very, very um taxing. Um, and I'll just leave it at that um with me. So emotional. My went on for about two years, my oldest, and for my youngest one, it was about I would venture to say eight to ten months was before we really started to to be able to sit down and actually have conversations about about important things. Um and then the um that reconciliation piece came in when um you know, I think my youngest kind of played a hand in helping me to reconcile with my oldest. Um, I think that I didn't, if I did, I did not intend to put her in the middle of any of that, but I do think that that there was a piece to that. Um, and my oldest one then reached out to me. I had just completely backed off from her um and just did not have any communication at all. And she reached out to me at one point um about it was about my grandson um meeting to have um meeting for a meal for his birthday. So that's how we started to get back into communication. And even after that, it still took almost another year before we could, I felt like have an actual conversation.

SPEAKER_03: 13:10

Yeah, yeah. I feel like, yeah, I mean, this is something I haven't really talked about on the show yet, but I I I guess I should start talking about it now because this is totally relevant to this episode. Uh I started to have communication with my mom uh this past summer. Uh, she reached out to me. Uh, it was kind of funny. It wasn't like an act, she didn't actually say anything, she just sent me a link. So I thought, oh, that's you know. Um, but we're in very low contact, like we have contact with each other. But yeah, we're not at that place where we can have a conversation or even agree on what to talk about because there are so many things that are off the table for both of us. We haven't really found anything where we can meet in the middle. And poor AC is kind of he's been kind of mediating for us uh this entire time. And so I I I can only imagine how frustrating it is for someone to be in the middle like that. Yes. Um, but anyway, I guess what I'm getting at is yeah, I'm kind of going through that myself personally. Um so yeah, so you said it took like about a year for you guys to really be able to to talk. So what was that year like, you know, those little messages, you know, hi here and there? Uh, you know, how did that feel? Where you felt you were kind of in limbo, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01: 14:37

Yeah, it's great question. Um it was, it was, it was, it was very um, I felt like I was on foreign land, like I was, I was experiencing things I had never like. How do you have, how do you go from this relationship that you have in your mind of what um you know being a mother is like and having that relationship with your with your child, your adult child, and then not having that relationship and then stepping into it, right? And so how do you I mean there were moments I was I'd want to reach out and connect and say something, and I'd pull back because I'd be like, you know, I they talk about often with with estranged parents in reconciliation, and I'm sure on the adult child side as well, you feel like you're walking on eggshells. What do I do? It's the same. What if you know they don't like what I say and then I'm back in estrangement again and these things. So it was very cautionary. I I watched everything I said, how I said it, the tone I said it in, um, how often I reached out. Is am I reaching out too much? Am I not reaching out enough? Those types of questions. I mean, it was it was super, it's super, super hard.

SPEAKER_03: 15:54

Yeah, or something that used to be as simple as sending a gift all of a sudden is a super complicated thing. Exactly. There's a lot of reasons why I can accept certain things and not accept other things. And I don't want it to be, I don't want that to be taken the wrong way, you know. And that's what's hard for me is that I feel like everything I every little thing I do might be taken, you know, personally. Like um, and so like, you know, yeah, walking on eggshells is definitely something that I'm accustomed to, um, especially in this in this kind of situation that I find myself in.

SPEAKER_00: 16:33

It makes for a it makes for a very weird dynamic when there's so much riding on a simple conversation about the weather or something superficial.

SPEAKER_01: 16:44

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it was um, and I have to say too, you know, we even today we're several years out from that place, but even today, we've not ever sat down and had a conversation about this estrangement. It's never happened.

SPEAKER_03: 17:05

Oh, okay. It hasn't, it hasn't come up at all. That's gotta be weird too. See, I grew up, we didn't talk about our problems either. And if something happened, uh, you know, nobody said anything. But you could tell that's what was constantly going through everyone's mind all the time, and you never really knew what anyone else was thinking. You're trying to decipher their behavior and every little thing that they say, and just even being in that situation where there's no actual like visible conflict can be very emotionally exhausting.

SPEAKER_01: 17:38

It is, it is, and it's it's always the elephant in the room, right? And always that fear of the other shoe dropping, you know. We don't talk about this, how can we actually heal? And but then if we do talk about this, is the other shoe going to drop? Those kinds of things, it's yeah, in kind of this limbo state without uh feeling like for me, I don't feel like I have fully moved on from this experience because of that, right? I'm very much a now I am. Way back years ago, I was not one that would that wanted to confront and and subtle things and heal things and that type of being that way in the world. And now I am, and so it's really hard for me to have to want to talk about this. How did we get there? You know, what you know, I want to hear it from their side of this the story. How did we get there so that we don't ever repeat this again? I want us to heal from this and be able to move forward, but I don't, you know, I I've I have done and am still doing my own work in in therapy around this. Um, I don't claim to be perfect, I've not, you know, you I'm a mom the perfect parent. Yeah, I am far from that, but I'm continuing to do that that personal work so that I can show up and be better in relationship with my children. But that's I that's what I can do. It's up to her to both of them. I have talked some of about it with my youngest daughter, um, but not not with my oldest. And it's up to them on on when, if and when they're ready to come to the table with that. And I think that's something that a lot of estranged parents have such a hard time with when it comes to reconciliation. They're like, I they it's kind of like they either, oh great, we're reconciled, everything everything back to normal. Yeah, back to normal. Yeah. Or they're like, what do I do with this? I don't know how to be with this, right?

SPEAKER_03: 19:50

The change is very, very difficult. Yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah, it's as much as I wish that we I could go back to the way things work. It's like the way things were were one of the reasons why it became estranged. Exactly. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think a lot of people, not just estranged parents, but estranged adult children too, have a hard time understanding that something has to change. The views expressed on the show are opinion and experience based and are not intended as a substitute for therapy.

SPEAKER_00: 20:40

A lot of what you're saying is is resonating with me about how there's certain things you can't discuss. There are these elephants plural in the room. And you know that true healing isn't going to happen without addressing these things. Now, I was very fortunate in the sense that my mother and I are both like obsessive communicators. So if there's something that can't be talked about, we're gonna have a discussion about how it can't be talked about.

SPEAKER_01: 21:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 21:14

Has that been a component of your experience with your daughters?

SPEAKER_01: 21:19

Um it no, we there's just silence. There's just silence about it. Um with my oldest. My youngest, I've um we have had some conversations, and she has um indicated to me that she sees the changes that I've made. She understands that you know she and she is aware, both of them are aware that I am in therapy. Um, and she recognizes that and recognizes that I have made changes. But um as far as like the details of why did why did you initiate estrangement, like those types of questions, that's never been discussed. Um, I've never asked that. And a big piece of that is the whole um there's a therapist, um the ones that I talk to, and I had just kind of an insight to this. I also not only am I a therapy client, I work with therapists. Um, I have a lot of therapists that are friends. Um, so I'm kind of in that world, and I I feel like I have a little more insight than the average person would have about psychotherapy. And one of the things that they shared with me when I started going through this experience was it was it was so traumatizing to me that oftentimes, and I still have, and I'm probably gonna get emotional about this. Um I still have almost like PTSD effects from the estrangement, um, in that there are a lot of things that happen that trigger me, and I go right back to that fear and the um what did I do to deserve this, and how do I get out of this? Panic. Um and so that causes me to not talk about things, not to initiate conversation. If they were to initiate that with me, I would be open to that conversation, but because I fear another estrangement, I don't I don't bring it up right.

SPEAKER_03: 23:42

I'm sorry, no, that's okay. I'm getting emotional too because estrangement's very traumatic. Um and when you're both going through this trauma completely separate, you can't bond over it, and so you're going through this really terrible thing, and uh you have to reach out to strangers, and that's very scary, right? And then every time you think, Oh, I'll reach out or I'll say something, you know, you have that fear again. It's like, what if I make this worse? Right, exactly. Because if anything, you know, we don't want it to get worse, we want it to get better, but it's like you know, finding out what has to be done is such a challenge, especially when there are things you just can't agree on. Sorry, I'm just gonna take a minute.

SPEAKER_00: 24:52

Well, this is one of those situations where I feel kind of um uniquely qualified, I guess maybe to speak to both of you here because I've been stuck right in the middle of Alexis and her mother for about the last year or so trying to broker some sort of a piece between them. And one of the things that's come up over and over again in conversations with both of them is trying to highlight the fact that, like, look, both of you are going through the exact same thing. Your thought process is exactly the same, you've got the same resentments, like everything is the same, but you can't seem to see eye to eye. Like each of you is justifiably scared of taking the risk. Both of you have justifiable resentments. You're both cradling your wounds. And I think regardless of who initiates the estrangement, the fact is the estrangement happens and it sucks. It sucks really bad. And I don't think that like somebody initiating an estrangement is like what damages or destroys a relationship. I think it's a symptom of something that's gone horribly wrong.

SPEAKER_01: 26:23

Yes, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 26:25

You know, and hearing your perspective now create and how Alexis is sort of bouncing off of it, like I mean, it it really brings me back to what she had suggested a little bit earlier of maybe like some sort of like role-play exercise where the two of you can just directly bounce off of each other as you know, like a surrogate mother daughter. I honestly believe that there are so many universal truths about estrangement situations where I'm I'm really hoping that both for for you and Alexis, but also for our listeners, that they may gain a lot of perspective, and they definitely see some benefit to the two of you hopefully just uh play acting your way through unpacking the situation. You've got questions for your daughters. I know she's got questions for her mom, but these questions up until now it sounds like they've been unasked.

SPEAKER_03: 27:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:29

So, I mean, I'll I'll put Alexis on the hot seat here because I don't want to antagonize a guest, especially one that's been so gracious to show up here. But you know, with Alexis, with Creed is your mom here for the purposes of this conversation. Whose fault is this estrangement?

SPEAKER_03: 27:55

I don't think I can blame any one person, to be honest. Like I said, it's complicated. There are a lot of layers, a lot of things that went into it and contributed to it. And I felt like all of the contributions that I felt like all of those things accumulated so fast that I couldn't, I had no time to stop and just explain things. Um or I tried in little pieces and it was it wasn't registering, they weren't really hearing me. And so that was very, very frustrating. But I don't think I can blame any one person. I know I initiated it, but if I hadn't, things would have continued the way that they had been for decades. And um I needed a change for myself, even if they didn't. I needed a change for myself, and I knew that that was going to be difficult for everyone else. Um but I can't blame any one person for it.

SPEAKER_00: 29:11

Does this surprise you, Creed?

SPEAKER_01: 29:14

Um no, I think that I think that most adult children would probably say that. Now, once you get to the beneath the layers underneath, right? Yeah. On the surface, there's the anger and the pointing the fingers and you know, and blame and and things like that. But beneath that, I think that all of us recognize on some level, a relationship takes two. Yep. It it I don't care who what relationship that is, whether it's a parent-child, a you know, employee, employer, I mean it all of it, it takes two. And so all of us have some some part to play in the success or demise of a relationship. Um, but I think that with estrangement with it with between parent-child, it's so emotionally charged, and parents are dealing with their more often than not, unconsciously trying to they're they're reacting out of their conditioning. And yeah, they're not thinking about it exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 30:34

Yeah, I do the same thing, it's all you know, it's kind of habitual.

SPEAKER_01: 30:39

Yes, and and it's hard for um parents to hear that from their child that something I've done as a parent has harmed you, hurt you in some way. It's that is so hard to hear as a parent. I failed and that I hurt my child, and most parents don't know what to do with that, you know. Our culture says, and especially for moms, I think I can't speak for dads, I don't, but I what's been my experience is that it's really shaming for a mom. I actually was asked on occasion, what did you do? Yeah, to cause your daughters to not want to talk to you, and that just put the shame spiral in high gear those things, and so but at the same time, I feel like now on this other side of it, I can see that my daughters went through the same thing. What do you mean? I can imagine them here having someone ask them, what do you mean you're not talking to your mom? Yeah, your mom. Like, so I can see that it's all it's just it's the same coin, it's just different one side than the other.

SPEAKER_03: 32:16

Yeah, I experienced that. Yeah, what's wrong with you? Why did you walk away from your family? You know, uh, and your church, you know, you walked away from everybody. What's wrong with you? Oh, she's gone crazy, you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_00: 32:29

The the shame thing I'm I'm actually finding kind of interesting. I'm finding it interesting for a couple of reasons. One is Alexis, that you are easily identifying with Creed's shame as being valid, but I've not seen this same kind of reaction to your mother experiencing this kind of shame.

SPEAKER_02: 32:53

That's probably when she's describing well.

SPEAKER_00: 32:56

I'm just wondering, like hearing Creed describe like the mother's perspective. I know you're a mom, but you're not a mom of estranged adult children, so I don't think you can get it entirely. I'm just wondering though, like hearing from a mom who's going through probably very similar things to your own mother, like how, if at all, is this changing your perspective?

SPEAKER_03: 33:20

Well, I don't know. I think maybe my religious upbringing might have a hand in that, just because from their perspective, I'm seeing it's like a prodigal daughter. So I don't know if if the shame that I experience, you know, has been is the same as my you know as my mom's. I don't know what that's been like for her because again, that's not really something we can talk about for some reason. And I wish we could. Like you said earlier, um, you know, I guess you were kind of you know upset and you know, kind of stomping your feet in the beginning, you didn't want to do what your daughters had requested, but then you got to a place where you know you started not understand and get to a place where you could talk. And I feel like that's the only reason I can't understand my mom is because we can't even get there. And that's what's very frustrating for me. I feel like I can understand you because we're standing, we're having a conversation, you're listening to me, I'm listening to you. We don't have any water under the bridge, so we have no reason to argue. That's it's harder.

SPEAKER_01: 34:39

I think, and and Alexis, I have to be honest, um, you know, with my own daughters, I pre-therapy for estrangement, I could not have had this type of conversation with them. Um, I couldn't have had the the conversations I have had thus far with them without doing my own personal work. I am just such an advocate for moms, and this is what I do with my support group for moms, is I'm trying to bring them back to stop pointing the finger at your adult children, and let's take a look in here inside our own hearts and find out where were we hurt, right? There was a time in my life, didn't occur to me until until after my estrangement. I was like, Oh, I remember a time when I was actually estranged from my mom. Like I you don't really, yeah, it's very common for a very long time, but there was a time when I was estranged from her, and so I went back to that experience of how did I feel when I told my mom, stop, I cannot take any more, and then I was like, Oh, yeah, maybe that is what my own child is thinking, right? And so when we as parents, as moms, can get back in a way, pull back from the child, pull back from your adult children, and come back to your own self and your own hurts and your own wounds and work through those because that it's that trauma in your life. And I when I say trauma, I mean trauma with a little T, you know, right zones and things like that. But right, those traumas in life were the fuel on how I responded and reacted to everything my daughters did. Yeah. And when I got into that and learned more about that and how it affected my life and the way that I respond, then I was able to make changes and I was more willing to make changes. And so I think that that's the piece that I don't see a lot of parents wanting to do. Um, I actually kind of hear the opposite from parents. They're like, they see their kids going through therapy, and so they blame the therapist. Oh, the therapist is the one who caused this estrangement. The therapist is the one who's told my child to leave me, you know, and I'm like, the therapist turned you into an atheist or something like that. Those kinds of things. And not it's you know, not every therapist is is, you know, fantastic. I mean, it's a like any other profession. However, the majority have, you know, they're they're working to to make things better and to empower whomever their client is, be it the parent or the child.

SPEAKER_03: 37:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:36

So and I get that, Alexis. It's it's when you've got the the water under the bridge and the history, it's really hard when it's hard to stay on track. Yeah. Right. It's hard to stay on track when you feel like you're not being heard.

SPEAKER_03: 37:58

Thank you for listening to When the Bow Breaks. As always, please remember to like, follow, and share. Links in this week's show notes.

SPEAKER_01: 38:13

What was it, Tina Gilbertson? I heard her say the other day in a podcast that she does that um acknowledgement is like catnip for humans. Right? And it's like we don't have to agree and say that what our adult children are saying is absolute 100% correct. Yeah, no. We can acknowledge, I see that you're hurting. Yes, I hear you, I hear that you're saying to me your hurt is a result of my actions. I'm not agreeing with that.

SPEAKER_00: 38:49

Well, that's interesting. You're not talking about validation, this is just simple, clear-cut acknowledgement. I hear you, I see you.

SPEAKER_01: 38:56

Exactly. Okay, exactly. And that's that's can be a starting point before we can get to validation. Yeah, no, that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_03: 39:05

It's such a small thing, but it's such a big thing. And that was that was my thing. It was like, why don't they even acknowledge this? Like it felt like emotional abandonment.

SPEAKER_00: 39:16

Like, I don't know if that's like you know, an exaggeration, but that's well, that's actually that's a good question for you for you, Creed, because this is something that again, like me middlemanning between Alexis and her mom. I hear both ends of it. What might hold you back from acknowledging certain things? And I'm not talking about like things that your daughters might bring to the table, but things where it's like you're a mom, you got eyes in the back of your head, you've been training for this like their whole lives, right? You know what's going on a lot of the time before they know what's going on. If you see that there's something that you can address, but like you hold back for. For whatever reason, like what are some of these kind of things that like you're not acknowledging?

SPEAKER_01: 40:09

Like, what am I not acknowledging, or what am I holding? Why am I holding back?

SPEAKER_03: 40:13

I guess I guess I guess either or. Yeah, I guess what he maybe what he's trying to say is like, what would be your reasons for not acknowledging something? I guess we're just kind of asking, like, if you could shed some perspective. Um sorry, I sort of acknowledge you. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00: 40:28

My question did get a little muddled. Sorry, I'm under the weather. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03: 40:31

Like, I get what you're saying. No, I get what he's asking. I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:36

I think um if it if it was something something that really hit home with and there's because there's always a kernel of truth in most everything that is said, right?

SPEAKER_03: 40:53

And it's a matter of us saying, and and it's usually when that kernel of truth hits us, yeah, that we stop things because it's like okay, that makes me feel a lot better because I was like, okay, now I know why she just totally shuts down if I bring this or that up. It's like that's why she's not acknowledged. No, that makes a lot of sense. I was like, okay, it's not that she is totally not thinking about it. Maybe she totally just can't go there, right? You know, so maybe she's not verbally acknowledging me, but you know, if I can maybe think, maybe she's thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01: 41:28

Exactly. And I can guarantee you, just like you know, it's I hear from moms all the time, a strange moms, you know, my kids just off there, you know, having this great life and everything is fun and and happy, and you know, and I'm like, uh probably not. That's probably not exactly what's happening. It may appear to be that way, but then they may it may appear to them that we're off having the time of our lives and you know, not having to deal with any of these issues, right? The case, whenever we're generally, generally with people, when we're pushing against acknowledgement and recognition of something, it's somewhere within us is this piece of oh no, there's there's truth to that, and that hurts, that's touched the spot, and I I'm not going there. And that's where therapy comes in. That's where therapy says, let's talk about it, because you could talk about it with your therapist, it's a safe let's just help you handle it, you know. Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, so I don't know if that answered your question or not.

SPEAKER_00: 42:38

Ace no, it that again, like it answers the question very well because I know I'm sort of primarily asking from the perspective of somebody who's standing between an estranged mother and daughter, but I mean I'm I'm also a person with an estrangement story, and you're shedding a lot of light onto my mom's thought process. I mean, we've had the good fortune of being able to unpack a lot of this stuff, but there's still certain no-fly zones, right? And I think certain questions, just like certain answers, carry with them a bit of a sting.

SPEAKER_02: 43:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 43:15

So us being not directly connected to each other and being able to explore this stuff, like I think it's really, really good. Like sorry, this is a little bit hard for me too emotionally.

SPEAKER_03: 43:29

Yeah, um, it is good, it's it's you're shedding some light on a lot of things, and it's taken so long to get a parent on the show. It's like, you know, I didn't know if we just weren't reaching out in the right places or if there's just a lot of apprehension, but well, I think it's a lot of apprehension, and I do think that there, I mean, I had I received this invitation, you know, three years ago, there is no way, there's no way I would have ever even given it consideration.

SPEAKER_01: 44:04

I would have not done it because there was, I mean, it's just so emotionally reactive, right? And so, I mean, there were days I couldn't keep, I just couldn't keep it together. I mean, I was just sobbing from you know, or angry and threw everything out the window. I mean, I was just vacillating between one emotion to the other. Yeah. So it's and but the thing that got me to this place where I can do this is all of the personal work I did, all of the weekly, you know, years of weekly therapy, diving into my own stuff. Where, why do I do this? Why do I think this way? Why, what, where did I get this perspective from? And then I was able to get to this place of oh, opening up to being curious. Yeah. My children. And this is what I try to help moms to understand. This building a sense of curiosity is huge. Doesn't mean you have to go there and change things and upend your life and all this other stuff, but just what would it be like if I wonder what she would say if I did this, or I wonder what this would bring. Those that sense of curiosity is what then opened me up to be able to touch the places where I hurt my children, where I hurt them and I brought them pain so that I could then go in and apologize.

SPEAKER_03: 45:32

No, that's really big because, like you said, when you in the absence of curiosity, you have more of like an assumption frame of mind, and assumptions are gonna lead you down the wrong path. And I that's frustrating for me because I was raised in a way where I was always having to guess what what everybody was thinking. I I always had to assume things, and it's a terrible, terrible habit habit. And so, you know, like what you said, instead of trying to figure out what motives are or trying to be, it's like, no, why don't you just start asking yourself those questions? Like, yeah, what could happen if I what would happen if I do this? And sometimes it gets exhausting, sometimes it's emotionally difficult to even think about the possibility of this or that happening. But that curiosity, like you said, asking those questions, it's like, okay, well, then those questions start to evolve and into deeper things. And then you're starting to ask, well, why would I respond that way? Or why would she respond that way? Hmm, you know, like what's there's more to this. Let's like let's figure it out. That curiosity is really important. And if going into therapy, when you have that curiosity, it can even be fun. It can, it can be.

SPEAKER_01: 46:55

I mean, there's times I have laughed on my the sofa at my therapist office, and I've said, Wow, how yeah, how did I ever even think to come to that conclusion? Yes, you know, I mean it was like the aha moments, the light bulb moments, and things like that. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 47:15

No, I I like that you brought up the curiosity too, because yeah that you you articulated that very well. When I think back on my own estrangement story, I knew I wasn't ready when I couldn't even think about what my mom was up to, what she was all about, what she was thinking. It did get to a point where I was honestly thinking about okay, well, where's she at? How's she feeling? But to take the curiosity angle a step further, when we finally did start talking and having functional conversations, I think a big component of that functionality was the fact that not only were we curious about each other, but that we were expressing that curiosity about each other. Yes, and that in many ways, I think, validated both of us because I was so used to approaching my mom thinking, no, no, I know what you're all about. You can't explain to me something different. I'm not hearing it, I know what a nasty mom you are.

SPEAKER_03: 48:19

Yeah, we know the story, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:21

And I was at the same time, you know, somewhat unfairly and ironically frustrated with her because she was looking at me and thinking, no, no, I know you better than you know you. I changed your diapers, you little shit, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 48:34

Yeah, I remember more about your life than you do.

SPEAKER_00: 48:36

But when we got to actually talking like actual people, we gained such an appreciation of each other, and I came to realize something that I don't know if your daughters have expressed this to you, but this is something that I had to express to my mom, and it was the most difficult but meaningful thing in the world for me to get to the place where I realized that all these years I'd been taking my mom's inventory and thinking like all the ways in which I had disappointed her. It had never occurred to me that or sorry, that she had disappointed me. It had never occurred to me that I had also disappointed her. It wasn't just a case of her being less than ideal of a mom, I was less than ideal of a kid, and I don't want to like get too far down the rabbit hole of plugging my other podcast, but I mean I I I did an episode writing about how my mom was so much more than the labels that I had assigned to her, she was actually a dynamic person, and whereas I had assigned labels like failure and abuser and inconsiderate to her, really the labels that should have been assigned were things like trying, growing, hurting, and um I don't know where your daughters are at exactly, but I feel fairly comfortable speaking on their behalf. That like somewhere in there they see these things in you too, and you don't have to have like all your things figured out. You're putting in an effort and you're being open about that effort, and I think that is so commendable.

SPEAKER_03: 50:27

Yeah, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_00: 50:31

I don't think that um most of us doubt the love that our family members have for us or that we have for them. I think something that's too often not expressed is that it's not just a case of hey, I love you, but it should be a case of I need you. You're essential, you're not optional.

SPEAKER_03: 50:49

Right. Yeah. Not on some level to do less or something.

SPEAKER_00: 50:54

I I think that a lot of the hurt comes out of the fact that you are essential, but in some ways their ability to navigate you kind of wasn't there, and maybe like that dominated their perspective over their ability or their their need to have you around. Like that that pull in two separate directions, it it's powerful and it's damaging. I guess I'm not trying to speak too much in circles, but you know, this is emotional stuff, and I feel like you know, I want to just reach through the screen and say, I love you, mom, on their behalf.

SPEAKER_01: 51:39

Thank you. Um I think that's that has that hit home. Um because it's I I no one wakes up one morning and says, Oh, I think I'm just going to estrange from everyone today. That's not how it works. And I know that me as a parent, I was a single parent for a number of years, and um I was in survival mode a lot of those years. And if I could go back and change things, I've always said my biggest regret was the way that I parented my children. And if I could go back and have a do-over, I'd do it in a nano of a second. I would redo everything, but I can't. And I'm a human being with feelings just like my children are, and I just hope that one day they can be at the place where they understand that their mom tried, and I did the best that I could with the information I had at the time, and the only thing that I can do now having more information is to do it differently moving forward. And if there's one thing that I could say to all adult children who have estranged from their parents, is to maybe one day be able to come to the place where you can see your parent as a human being who has faults, who tries the best way they know how to be a parent. No one sends us home with an instruction manual on how to parent children. Yeah. And we make a plethora of mistakes. Um, but we try and we do the best that we can. Um, that being said, I can also say that I hope that estranged parents can understand that your child is a human being too, that your child has suffered and continues to suffer through this estrangement, whether you see it or not. And that if you can get to a place where you can recognize that and hold that front and center with everything that you do, healing can happen. It's not gonna happen overnight, and it's not gonna happen in two days and a week or what have you, but it will happen. But we're all human beings, and human beings are foul. We just none of us are perfect. Thank you for sharing that, um, AC. I I hope that one day my my children can come to that place where they can understand me as a as a person who's tried and that I can be a needed and welcomed part in their life.

SPEAKER_00: 55:14

I honestly like I I hope for their sake that they can get to that place too, because I know how much personal healing only comes as a result of these types of realizations. It's not about excusing the fact that you know mistakes were made. It just I understand, I think, like you say, there's a place where these mistakes are coming from. They come sometimes from hurt. More often than not, they come just from inexperience. Like all of us are parents. I know that it's not a question of if I'm messing up my kids, but how I'm messing up my kids.

SPEAKER_03: 55:58

Yeah, and how to repair it later.

SPEAKER_00: 56:00

So I think I gotta bring a lot of that to the table too, thinking like if my mom went through what I'm going through with my kids, oh man. I I I'd hate to think that the day comes when they're my kids come to me, they take my inventory and say, This is where we part ways.

SPEAKER_02: 56:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 56:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 56:26

I mean, I feel kind of bad. I feel like this this conversation in certain ways has been very disjointed, but I mean that's kind of how the subject matter is. It's not easy grounds to cover. There's so many, so many confusing elements that are bouncing off against each other.

SPEAKER_03: 56:42

Exactly. Yeah, and like as an estranged adult child, you know, with kids, you know, I that runs through my mind all the time. How do I make sure that this doesn't have to happen to our family? And like you said, making those changes, it's little steps, it's it's very gradual. It's it's it feels so slow sometimes, you know. Some, but then every now and then you'll hit like a huge milestone. And I always just say, when you do hit those milestones, take time to enjoy it and appreciate the work that you've done because it is hard to get there. It is hard for some people, like you said, even just to go to counseling and get help if they need it. It is hard work. Yes. Um, it doesn't stop. I feel like it just it's always going on in your head. You know, it's it's obsessive, but it's you know, again, it's not something that we do because we just feel like, oh yeah, I'll just get rid of everything and you know, we're gonna go off and be fine and be happy. And no, there's there's there's real work involved. And um, but the payoff, I mean, you'll get as much out of it as you put into it. I think, you know, whether or not you're able to, you know, establish reconnection with the person that you're estranged from, you're gonna learn and grow a lot and bring more positive things into the new relationships that you make.

SPEAKER_02: 58:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 58:08

Um, so you know, and I wanted everyone to kind of, you know, unthink about that too. You know, not all of us are gonna reach a point of reconciliation.

SPEAKER_02: 58:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 58:17

And that's not something some of us like to think about. Um, but I think that also just learning to be content with where we're at and learning to understand, okay, this is where I'm at. It's okay, let's just keep moving forward, let's just keep doing the work, just keep growing and uh, you know, see where it takes us.

SPEAKER_01: 58:38

Baby steps. I'm always baby steps. Yep. Just putting one foot in front of the other, doing the next best thing, right? The next right thing right here, right now, instead of worrying about, you know, six months down the road, a year down the road, it's like right here, right now, what can I do today for myself? To show a little self-compassion, right? Because I beat myself up a lot. Um based on, you know, as I said, how I raise my children. So exercising a little bit of um self-compassion. And then when I can have some self-compassion for myself, then that becomes easier to give that compassion to my daughters.

SPEAKER_03: 59:18

Yeah, it really does come. It sounds so cheesy, but it really does come from within.

SPEAKER_02: 59:23

It does.

SPEAKER_03: 59:23

You you really have to do the inner work if you want to see external changes. Exactly.

unknown: 59:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 59:29

That's just what I that's what I've learned. That is that's not just something I just say like I've learned I've learned that the hard way over and over. You have to do the work if you want things to change. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 59:39

If we, you know, that whole definition of insanity, if we continue to do the same thing, yeah, I mean, that's not going to bring any changes, anything different. Right. You know, we have to change in order to have something different.

SPEAKER_03: 59:53

So I had a question. Do you think it do you think that your your kids will listen to this podcast?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:00

I I will share it with them. I hope that they do. Um I I think that I think they will. Um what would you like to say to them if they were listening? I love them and I am so sorry for ever having imposed any work. And I hope that we can move forward in a healthy way that will sustain us for the rest of our lives in a way that works, that is meaningful and healthy for all of us.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:38

And they had the support of the show. Yeah, everyone who comes on the show is like family to us. Um I can't express how much this has positively changed our life, this little show that we started about estrangement. We had no idea what this would become. And uh I want to say thank you as we wrap this up. Um, AC, do you want to have do you have anything else you want to bring to the table before we wrap it up? Any other questions you have for Creed or me?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:10

No, there's just one quick thing I want to mention, maybe possibly in passing. Anybody who's listening to this, feel free to reach out to the show if you've got questions, either as a strange child, a strange parent, a strange sibling. Uh if we can't personally address this stuff, we can put you in touch with somebody, hopefully, who can. All of us, I think, are willing to make ourselves available as surrogates. To anybody who's got questions. And um yeah, that's basically my little piece. And I also want to give Creed an opportunity to share any resources or or whatnot that she thinks are useful. And of course, we will include any links she mentions in this week's show notes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:56

Sure. Um, I one thing that helped me a lot was working, um, listening to Dr. Coleman, Joshua Coleman, um is a uh therapist, uh clinical psychologist that works with Estrange Parents. He has a free uh QA session he does on every Monday, and that was really helpful for me in the beginning. Um, of course, lots of um online support groups as well is was helpful. Um also I had a book, two books that I um would like to recommend as well. Um is one was When Parents Hurt by Dr. Joshua Coleman, and the other is Fault Lines um by Carl Um Pilmar, I believe is how you say his last name. And um Tina Gilberson also has a podcast that um it's called The Reconnection Club, and she she offers a lot of um wonderful, wonderful advice um for for parents and adult children. Yeah, she's great.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:54

Yeah, I know her. Yeah, she actually, I'm gonna say this because this will force me to put this episode out because it's gonna be really good. Her episode with our show is in the banks right now. Um, we are working on pulling all that. Uh, we're having a little bit of issues with some of our computer and having to move and blah, blah, blah. We don't need to get into it. But um, she's very good. Uh, she has a lot of good information for parents specifically. Uh, so yeah, check her out. Sorry, I just didn't want to interrupt, but yeah, I just wanted to clarify. Yeah, she's great. She's great.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:26

Yeah, yeah. But I think those are those were the things that helped me. Um, I just I, you know, I got curious, I reached out for support, I looked for support in a way that, you know, I can't be the only person on this planet experiencing this, right? And so I'm so when when I found, thank you, AC, for reaching out. When I found your podcast, I was like, oh my gosh, this is wonderful that you guys have this and that you're open to having parents come on as well, that it's not just for estranged adult children, but also parents. And I think that I'm hoping that with me being here today will help open the doors for some um other parents to come on and share their story. It's through sharing our stories that we make connections.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:11

Yes, yeah. Yeah. So if you're an estranged parent and you're listening, please, please, please share, share, share. Uh, we need to get the word out to more parents. Yes, when the bow breaks podcast is not just for adult children, it's for anybody experiencing any level of estrangement.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:29

Siblings, marriage, you name it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:32

Anything. Yeah, this is meant to be a resource for anybody experience experiencing estrangement. So, yeah, share it with anybody and everybody. Estrangement's more common than you think. Like you said, you experienced estrangement, didn't really realize it, you know, until you're older. So, yeah, share, share, share. Um, if you want more information, you can go to our website, wtbbpod.com, and uh which is a fish a Kingfisher Media Production. So uh we have a Facebook page if you want more information about Kingfisher Media Productions. Uh so you can visit us there. Um trying to think, is there anything else? Uh this was a really great episode, Creed. Thank you so much for being here. Um, again, I can't say it enough, said it too much already, and not too much, but you know what I mean. Uh we really appreciate you being on the show. And I hope that this episode will um help a lot of parents um and a lot of adult children too. So uh thank you for listening to When the Bow Breaks podcast. Uh, we will see you next time.