It's Complicated

 AC joins Alexis to bring everyone up to date on his estrangement story. 

Remember to like, follow, and share on social media! To support the show, please leave a positive review wherever you listen to this podcast.

Thank you for listening!

https://buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

Transcript

Copy

SPEAKER_03 0:00

The following is a Kingfisher Studios podcast. Thanks for listening to When the Bow Breaks. This is Alexis Arlen. Today I'm with AC Fisher from Turn Up the AC Podcast and Kingfisher Studios. So you've been busy the past few months with your podcasting.

SPEAKER_05 0:25

I've been very busy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Yes. So for those of you who don't know, I know this guy. I've known him since I think the first episode, which was called Why Can't We All Just Get Along? So you've been busy with your podcasts. I I would really like for you to explain what your podcast is and talk about it before we get into the update because that's something fun and cool that's been happening during this whole time. So I want to kind of start with that.

SPEAKER_05 0:55

I get put on the hot seat a lot with questions about my podcast. And the most common one is just a really simple one, which is what is your podcast about? And I'm never really sure exactly how to answer that. Because basically what I do is I think back on situations from my past, or I think on inspirational quotes, and I sort of just unpack my emotions, my personal philosophies, and sometimes just like simple memories. Um, in in an effort to let people inside of my head and see what makes me tick. It's really just an exercise in bearing all of me to anybody who's interested in listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Yeah, so I've listened to it. I've listened to every episode.

SPEAKER_05 1:41

I should hope so.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Uh I actually have an episode on your show as well. That I pitched that myself. Uh no, but uh let's give that a shameless plug.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

The episode is called Where is My Shade and It's Wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Yeah, so just yeah, if you have time, listen to it.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

Make the time or I'll cut you.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

So you've been busy with that, and it I've listened to it, and it's almost kind of like a biographical type of podcast, I feel. It's stories about your life, or you give insights or your thoughts on people that um who inspire you.

SPEAKER_05 2:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

I feel like all the good stuff is in this podcast.

SPEAKER_05 2:25

I like to think so. I mean, my latest episode at the time of recording is not yet released, but this sort of goes into a little bit of the not pretty side of me. But um all in all, I I like to think that you know people that listen to it are gonna walk away with kind of a good feeling and maybe some introspective thoughts of their own.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

So, what inspired you to do this podcast, this new one, Turn Up the AC?

SPEAKER_05 2:53

For a couple of years, my brother Jason Moore and I, uh, I'll give him a shameless plug from the Podverse podcast. Um, we used to do uh a show called The Missionary Position, and for the longest time I was feeling creatively stifled because I always had somebody to answer to, and I I had it in my head that okay, I've got a lot of these like thoughts in my head that need to come out. I can't keep answering to a co-host, I need my own platform where it's just me, I answer to nobody, and um I had started conceptualizing turn up the AC, which was sort of intended as a play on my name, AC Fisher, whereas you know, like turn me up in the sense of like I was just gonna go on these mad rants and tangents and just really explode into the mic, but I just couldn't seem to get anything together that I thought anybody was gonna listen to. So I put the title on the back burner, and um you actually had been encouraging me to do some writing, and I'm not really a writer so much as a talker. So I started writing with the intention of recording these thoughts, and one night after you'd gone to sleep, I started writing, then I recorded what I'd written, and I think by the time the world woke up the next morning, I had launched Turn Up the AC, and it was as much a surprise to me as it was to anybody else.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Uh-huh. Yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_05 4:31

So I guess at the end of the day, you're responsible for Turn Up the AC.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

I wouldn't say that. Uh I don't think I could have launched a podcast overnight like that. I think the whole the whole thing, I think you have. But anyway, uh this podcast is really cool. So aside from the podcast, uh, what's the real reason why you and I are talking again on my show?

SPEAKER_05 4:59

Let's talk mother issues. You know, like that that that's where we started. I think our very first conversation was you interviewing me about my at the time estranged mother. And uh we we talked about a variety of complicated family issues and difficult background. We had a lot of common ground, but um, some things have changed since that conversation a little bit over a year ago.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

So between you and your mother, how have things changed?

SPEAKER_05 5:32

We're talking now.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:37

I guess I I guess that's the biggest change.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Uh-huh. And how do these conversations go, would you say? How often do you see your mother, for example?

SPEAKER_05 5:47

Probably a little bit more often than I'd like to. Um I I see her at least once a week these days.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Yeah. I'd say that's about average, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:57

Yeah, I mean, more is changed than just us actually seeing each other.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Um so backing up just a little bit, what made you just how did this happen? First of all, how did you start talking to your mother again? Was it her? Was it you who initiated contact? Was there a go-between?

SPEAKER_05 6:17

It was a combination of things. So my my sister Elle, who we mentioned the last time we talked on this show, had been needling me for probably about a year and a half, saying, you know, like mom's different now, she's changed. Um, I think you're ready to talk to her, things like that. And you know, like, don't you love her? Isn't there like some way you can put things aside, blah, blah, blah? And presumably she was working on my mom in the same way at the same time. But I I wasn't really feeling ready for the longest time. And um I guess to to cut out a whole lot of boring detail, really, like what the breaking point for me was in conversing with with my sister was she had pointed out to me that, like, look, even if mom is the exact same person that you last spoke to, you're not the same person as you were then. You've gone through a lot of changes. You've taken the time to reflect and work on the things that weren't really super nice about you. You don't react in the same ways, you've gotten help for your mental health issues, you know, like all kinds of things had changed over the six or so years that I didn't speak to my mother. So I guess I realized that my sister had a point that even if my mother was just a horrible monster, if I were to see her, the risk of me actually like having a strong reaction or taking any real offense was fairly small.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

So what happened on that day? What were some of the questions that you had the day that you met up with your mom again?

SPEAKER_05 7:57

Like before meeting her, you mean?

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Yeah, like for example, in the car on the way there. What was going through your mind?

SPEAKER_05 8:05

Honestly, like the car ride over is a bit of a blur looking back on it. I remember in general the questions I had leading up to the meeting, you know, like I I didn't feel comfortable going alone. So I'd wanted somebody to be with me, and I think I kind of caught you off guard by first of all announcing that I was ready to see my mother and that it was basically happening like really, really soon. Like I don't know if it was like that day or the next day, but I remember your jaw sort of hitting the floor, and then especially so when I said, like, I didn't think I could go without you. But you know, the the the the questions that I had, I think that's what you were asking about, were I don't know if it was specific questions, so much as me just wondering, you know, like first of all, like what's she gonna look like? I haven't seen the woman in like six years, and like she's in her 70s, so you know, a face can go through a lot of changes over the course of a few years in that age group.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 9:07

I didn't know, like, am I gonna have any feelings towards her at all? Because after the initial estrangement, I'd had to grieve her loss as though she had died. I had learned to live my life without her in it. I had cried all of my tears. I had, you know, restructured my social life in a way that no longer accommodated her, and truthfully, I didn't really need her, and I wasn't even sure if I wanted her. So my my biggest concern, honestly, was that like there was just gonna be nothing there, and I was I don't know, gonna find myself in a confusing situation.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Yeah, so I remember there was like it was a long enough car ride to have, you know, ask yourself those questions. It was a long enough car ride to have some anxieties about it going terribly wrong, you know, and then it was also about like savor the time because you never know if it's going to happen again.

SPEAKER_05 10:15

Right. So we get out of the car, we I remember we drove to her place, which was a bit weird in itself because I actually had to get directions to my mother's house. I didn't even know where she lived.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yeah. So yeah, I think we made a wrong turn once, I think.

SPEAKER_05 10:32

Yeah, and I almost decided to not go through with the visit just because that wrong turn just felt like a good excuse.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Yeah, you were on the edge of it. I remember I was like, wow, what an adventure, and I'm along for the ride. That was really how I was feeling. I really did not know how it was going to play out. So we get there and you know, maybe tell me just a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_05 10:59

Oh my god, was that ever awkward?

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Oh, that was awkward for a number of reasons.

SPEAKER_05 11:05

You know, because we I I remember knocking on the door and hearing that familiar voice saying, Um, come in. I think the door was actually open partially at least. And um there was like a mosquito net or a curtain or something covering the door, so it was sort of like it was translucent. I could see her, but not really.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:29

She was kind of like out of focus, laying on the couch. And um honestly, like putting my eyes on her for the first time in that many years was kind of a surreal experience. It wasn't like, oh my god, there's my mummy. It was just a case of, huh, I can't believe we're actually this close to each other. Like I really emotionally wasn't sure what to do with it. I don't remember exactly where you were in relation to me. I remember, like, I don't know, in that moment, my biggest concern was how is she going to be able to digest the fact that I'm showing up with you when the last time she saw me, you know, it was me and my ex-wife were together. And presumably, so far as she imagined me, it was still me and my ex-wife, and here I am with this new woman after seeing her son for the first time in like six years.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Yeah, it definitely wasn't the position I'd ever been in.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

So it's not the best way to meet the mother.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

Yeah. So it yeah, so that was awkward. I feel like it was awkward for me too, a little bit because of everything that you told me about your mother, like the good, the bad, you know, all of that. And I I did have a worry that like I was going to have to, I didn't know for sure if I would should wear armor or if I should bring like a bouquet, or you know, like really I didn't know.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

And so she's a difficult person to to to prepare for, even when you know her, because I mean, like, yeah, she's a very colorful person. And like to be totally fair to her, that's an understatement. I I don't know if she like ever is intentionally an asshole with people, or if this is just something that she trips into and she's as surprised as anybody else. Like, she's a she's a funny, quirky, eccentric loon, really.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Who has all her faculties.

SPEAKER_05 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Yeah. Sorry, I had to.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

That was a bit of an insider joke.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

It was a combination of that was a recent joke. But um so Met Mom again. Then after that, it seemed like a whole string of like important like milestones, I guess, if if you will, for you and I personally, um, together were happening. So there was more family events, and it was more okay that you guys were in the same room together, and that it, you know, there was not really any conflict. Has there been very much conflict with you guys? You know, I know you guys didn't always agree.

SPEAKER_05 14:21

Well, we still don't always agree. Um I I I have to say that like it's not your typical mother-son relationship, but I can't say that it's a bad relationship.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Right.

SPEAKER_05 14:35

Um the the first couple of interactions that we had after reconnecting, honestly, I felt like it was something that I was doing for my sister because I knew that it really troubled her that my mom and I weren't in communication. I felt like it was something that I was doing for my kids because they had been deprived of the opportunity of having a grandmother for this many years. And I even felt like, you know, it was something I was doing for my mom because I mean, she was old and like I'm a parent, I get it. I know how like whether or not your kids think you're doing a good job, you still love them, and you can't turn that off, even if they think you have. And I thought, like, it costs me nothing to put myself in this situation, it really doesn't, but there's so many people that potentially benefit from it. I wasn't gonna be an obstacle to anybody else's happiness.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

I see. So it's been how many months now since you've had contact with your mom again?

SPEAKER_05 15:41

I think it was like tail end of summer, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Like six months about.

SPEAKER_05 15:45

Yeah, something like that. It was about six months.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

So six months. In the last six months, how how would you sum up the last six months regarding you and your mom?

SPEAKER_05 16:02

I feel like I've actually gotten to know her for the first time in my life, and more importantly, I feel like she's gotten to know me. Because the the theme of me growing up was really centered around her believing that she knew me better than I knew me, which was always really hard to digest. Um, coming back to my podcast, there was a lot of stuff I wasn't really sure how to communicate directly to my mom because I didn't know how to have the conversations, and I knew that I wanted to spend time with her just again to like make it easier for everybody around us and and to make it easier for her too. Just like me spending the time there I knew made my sister feel good. I know it made my kids feel good, I know it made my mom feel good. I was still feeling a whole lot of nothing through this time, and I wasn't really sure how to like have certain conversations because I mean her life is centered around her faith. My life does not involve a faith element, and there's a lot of trauma that I associate with her religion. So, I mean, how do you have a meaningful conversation with somebody when the only depth that they can find is in matters of faith?

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:26

So I didn't want to end up sitting across the table from her having a bunch of how's the weather conversations. I didn't want to get into family gossip or any of that nonsense. But I thought, like, hey, if she's gonna ask me what have you been up to, I'm not gonna say, well, you know, I painted another apartment today. Like, who cares? I paint day in and day out, nothing new at work.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:49

She doesn't know my friends, she doesn't know I guess the cultural references that I might make about the things that interest me. But I thought, like, I do this podcast, I'll just let her hear some episodes, and I started playing her some, and I think the first one I played her was an episode, an episode called Luba, where I talk about my first love. And, you know, my mom was there to see that whole relationship play out, but there were so many details she was unaware of, she had no idea. And I remember her listening to that episode and openly weeping and telling me, you know, how beautiful it was, and apologizing for, you know, not understanding or not seeing certain things, and then she asked if she could hear another one. So I played her, I think, six or seven episodes during that visit, and at the end of it, you know, she was just sort of like staring at me in amazement, telling me what a beautiful man I was, and how um she didn't deserve to identify as my mother because I was something that was much better than she could have raised. She felt like I was the person that I was because of me, because of something that didn't involve her. She felt like I had turned into me in spite of her, not because of her, which was a bit of a breaking point for me too, because I had to tell her that, like, look, you didn't fuck up all across the board. I am who I am because of you. Which, you know, that started to wake up the first little bit of emotion I had toward the woman because even just parents to parent, even if it's not a case of me thinking, hey, I love you, mom, I can empathize with another parent who's struggling with stuff, right? Like we all I think we have those days where You know, we think we've done everything wrong, but even despite all the things we do wrong, we accidentally do the right thing sometimes too, and my mom was no exception.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

So she said that she felt she didn't deserve to be called your mother. Did she ever talk about things that she felt sorry for? Did she ever apologize to you for anything?

SPEAKER_05 20:27

God, she apologized for everything. Like I don't know if it was in that conversation, but I mean we had a series of good conversations because I think like the first few visits I'd made sure that I'd had you with me, or that my sister was there, or that I brought my son with me. Just so that I would have somebody to run interference between her and I. But then I I decided that you know I'm gonna have to sooner or later spend a little bit of time one-on-one with the woman. Yeah. So I I started doing that, and it's it's interesting how things come up because it's like it's not like she said, Hey son, come over. I need to like tell you some things. It would be a case of like her and I are having a cup of tea and just telling stories about our pasts, you know, like not our shared past, but she would tell me stories about when she was young, I would tell her things that she wasn't previously aware of. And once in a while, something would just spark something in either her or in I where it was a case of look, there's something to make right here, there's something to acknowledge, you know. She apologized for never having been approachable.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Uh-huh. And that was different.

SPEAKER_05 21:46

Yeah, surprisingly different, honestly, because my mom has never been an approachable person on any level in any context at any time. And when I go to visit her now, the woman that I find sitting across from me is usually quite approachable. She doesn't always understand what's being brought to her, but she does take the time to actually hear me out.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

I would say that that's the person that I know. I don't see her as unapproachable. I see her as maybe hard to figure out sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

But I would not say unapproachable. In fact, and I don't know if she's just this way with me, because I've seen her behave this way towards other people too. She'll she'll basically have you come in and she'll be like, So, how are you? Without all the crap, basically. Like, like cut the crap, like get to the really important things that matter, like what's going on in the world.

SPEAKER_05 22:48

No, she asks, How are you doing with the expectation that you're going to give an honest answer?

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Yeah, yeah. And if you don't, she'll ask you other questions. She might even make fun of you as you're trying to like, you know, roll your answer out of your tongue in a way that she can understand. So it's actually really fun, like talking to her and stuff, um, getting to know her and everything, and there are definitely like some similarities. But what was some other things that you found was different from the time before you before you uh spoke or during your estrangement until you started talking again? Like what was different before and after?

SPEAKER_05 23:25

Um I'm gonna own my shit up front. Before I was a very reactive person and I took offense very easily. Um, I think that every conversation that her and I entered into, I was carrying the weight of every conversation that had come before it with me. So any small misstep conversationally, she was in the hot seat for like every conversation that we'd ever had before. And I would be reacting to a lifetime of nonsense. Now, you know, if there's a misstep conversationally, it's kept within the context of that conversation. If I'm misunderstanding something, like first of all, I'm not gonna react. I'm gonna say, can you explain what you mean by that? I don't assume that I know what she means by things. You know, I try to take that approach all across the board. So I mean, it's not something special that I put on for my mom. I know, like, I'd mentioned this like in our first interview a year or so ago, that you know, one of my central philosophies that I've adopted is that offense is taken, it's not given. And a lot of people, I think, misinterpret that to mean that I've given myself license just to be a jerk. But it it's very much a two-way street. I have to understand that my offense is taken, it's not given to me by another party. You've actually called me out on that a couple of times. So, like, I'm not perfect in the application of it. But, you know, like when I'm when I'm dealing with my mom, I've I've always got to like weigh out now how much my own emotional state, how my blood sugar, you know, how my level of r rest is factoring into the conversation. I I did I never did that before. It was a case of okay, I'm a little punchy, she should have noticed and tread a little bit more lightly around me.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Um, it's kind of like that mental body scan that you do to see, hey, how am I actually doing? But like you're doing it in the moment.

SPEAKER_05 25:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:39

So I I guess like I I don't know like how much it's fair to say, oh, she's really changed, because I mean, like, all of us to a certain degree, we're gonna reflect the person that's sitting across from us. And um, I think I'm definitely bringing a different person and a different set of variables to the table than I did before. Um, I'd like to think I make it easier for her, but I have to also acknowledge that she certainly makes it easier for me these days. There are times where I know that she really would like to say something, but she knows that it would be inappropriate and that I wouldn't understand or agree, and that there's a strong likelihood that you know it's gonna cause conflict, and she dials herself back. So, I mean, I guess both of us have learned to self-regulate a little better.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Yeah. I've heard her apologize in advance for anything, like if she's about to tell a story or something, she'll apologize in advance. Sorry if this bothers you, but this is what happened, and you know, stop me, you know, basically, but in a nutshell. But um, she's a much more eloquent speaker than I am. But uh, but yeah, I I I definitely say that she's certainly not the person that you described that you once knew.

SPEAKER_05 27:04

Yeah, I think that's fair. Like I I have to give her credit. I mean, she has gone through some serious changes. She does put in a lot of effort, and while I still struggle to conjure up any meaningful level of emotional bond for her, I have to say, in all honesty, that I really do like the woman.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

That was something that was funny. Uh, if it's okay if I share this, you know, I asked him, like, what do you how do you feel about your mother? You know, because I'm like all empathic and I'm all about my emotions and other people's emotions and feelings, right? So I'm like, oh, how do you feel? And he's like, I don't really feel one way or another. It's just like, whatever. You know, you know, and and that was a bit odd to me, but if I were in that position, I can't say that, yeah, I'd be like, oh, mommy, or you know, that I'd want to like just bury them because I don't think I'd want to go near them if I felt that way. So I guess, you know, if I were in the same situation, I'd feel better.

SPEAKER_05 28:08

But in a way, I kind of did bury my mother, and what I got instead was I made an interesting new friend.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 28:18

Which is I call her mom.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. So what have you learned in the time that you've been away from your mother?

SPEAKER_05 28:31

That working on self is the most important thing that any of us can do. With any strained relationship, worrying about all the misstep steps that the other people have taken is wholly irrelevant. I know this is something that's going to really bother a lot of people because I know the audience of this show for sure, a lot of you are dealing with estrangement, and a lot of you are looking at that one family member and thinking, no, no, my story's different. Well, your story's not different. I don't care how extreme it is, I don't care how much of a jerk your estranged family member or members are, you still got to work on you. And looking at my own situation, there's a lot of horrible things that have been said and done that can't be unsaid or undone. But I try to take these memories and these experiences in the context of the fact that we all mess up sometimes. Sometimes we mess up consistently for years and years. But um, like I talked about on my show, I can't remember what the episode was, is basically saying that like everybody's got a story. We all have these things that motivate us or compel us to act certain ways or say certain things or do certain things, and we're all very well justified in every moment of our lives. Maybe in retrospect, that justification doesn't hold up, but in the moment, that's where life is lived. So if we don't want to be defined by our past and we don't want to be on the hook for every misstep we've ever taken, it would be hugely hypocritical of any of us to hold anybody else on the hook for the missteps that they've taken.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

Right. I I find that sometimes living in the moment when all you have is a history with someone can be very, very difficult. But like you said, you just kind of do things slowly, like one visit at a time.

SPEAKER_05 30:39

That's all you can do.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:41

I mean, like somebody told me years ago that expectations lead to disappointment, and I thought at the time, like, what a ugly way to look at the world. But I I think that there is some merit to it. I mean, if you go into a situation with no expectations, you really can't be disappointed. You know. Um The other thing I wanted to say to like to anybody who's like thinking about like estranged family members, like tying into what I was saying about everybody being justified in the moment, is that a lot of the time we make unfair assumptions because we think we know the other person really really well, and we think that we can get inside their heads and we can answer why they were that way or why they said certain things or what actually motivated them, which is kind of not fair. Doesn't matter how much we dislike somebody or how much they've hurt us, we can't assume that we know all of these things, and we can't react to the situation based on our knee-jerk assumptions. We have to take things as they come, we have to be open-minded. And I know how hard that is because you know it's something that I have to force myself to do as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

So just for fun, can you share something funny or like a good memory that you've had with your mom since reconnecting with her?

SPEAKER_05 32:15

Well, it's not funny. It was sort of like profound for for me. Um just before Christmas, I was really sweating about a gift that I had gotten for one particular person because it seemed like every time I had managed to get the right gift, I would hear from somebody else in our shared circle that, oh, I got this for so-and-so, and I was thinking, damn it, like now I gotta go return what I got. And budget was really tight this past Christmas, so my my options were kind of limited, and I really wasn't sure what to do. It was like it seemed like one thing after another, and then I was at the end of my options, and I had very little money and no gift, and Christmas was literally like right around the corner, and I didn't know what to do, and I don't know why, but I thought to phone my mom and ask her for help, which is not a phone call that I would have expected to feel motivated toward. But I picked up the phone, I'm like, hey mom, I got the situation, and she's like, Don't worry, come pick me up. I know exactly what to do. And we went out and we did a spot of Christmas shopping together. We got things done, and I think from the time I picked her up to the time like I had the gift purchased and wrapped and ready to go was less than an hour, and then we ended up spending the entire day together just talking about everything and nothing, and we had a wonderful day together. I don't know that it's a nice happy ending. There's a lot of there's a lot of conflict like internally with me.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Yeah. So what are you what are some of your internal conflicts that you have going on right now as you're you know reconnecting with your mom?

SPEAKER_05 34:08

Well, there's the ongoing insecurity, like you know, like how long is this gonna last?

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:15

Have things really changed?

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 34:18

You know, like if something happens, you know, the kind of stuff that happens when any two people try to relate to each other. Conflict is part of the game. You cannot avoid it. But are we gonna be able to weather the storm if there is a serious disagreement? Like we've had a couple of like small things come up, but they've been resolved fairly quickly. But I don't know if we relate to each other effectively enough where if something big came up that we could get over it. And I worry that if something were to happen that would leave me separated from my mother again, like I don't know emotionally what frame of mind that would put me in. Because it was one of the things that had made me hesitant to reconnect with her initially, was that I didn't know if I could handle losing her a second time.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:15

But now, like kind of reconnecting with her, I'm not like connecting with that same person, so I don't know if losing her would be the same as losing my mom a second time. That worries me too, that I'm just dealing with something that is so unknown.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Yeah. Do you have any regrets about the time spent apart from her or how it ended, or is there anything that you wish you could change or that you could have done over the I wish that um that final conversation that her and I had, the one that set these six years of separation in motion.

SPEAKER_05 36:04

I wish that I had been more in touch with myself at that time. Because if I had been, if I'd been more in touch, more I guess more like I am now, I would have realized things about me like, first of all, I struggle with mental illness challenges. I didn't at the time understand that I was suffering with general anxiety and panic disorder and PTSD and like all these other things.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Before you were a strange.

SPEAKER_05 36:34

Before.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:35

I didn't realize that a lot of these issues I had had inherited from my mother. So there was no way to realize that there were two mentally ill people engaging into a heated conversation that was going to end very badly. I'd like to think that if one of us had had our shit together back then, it wouldn't have played out that way. And I don't sit there wishing, well, I wish that you, Mom, had had your shit together. I I wish that it had been me, because once I started working on me, I realized that like it's not really like this big overwhelming task. I mean, it's not like you can flick a switch and then magically you're okay, but I mean, every day comes with a series of decisions, and there's a series of things you can do or you can avoid doing. And it's not like I'm a personal development guru, I'm still kind of like a messed up person in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 37:37

But all of the things I've accomplished as far as like working on me, each of the little pieces has been real easy.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

So what would you say to someone who is thinking about reconnecting with that person in their life who they haven't spoken with for a long time? That person that they both love and also maybe can't stand, or that person who hurt them terribly. But you still love them enough to want something out of the relationship. What would you say to that person who's considering that?

SPEAKER_05 38:22

That's not the simplest thing to answer. Um there's a few factors at play here. Um the first thing I would want the person to answer for themselves is are you ready? Emotionally, are you ready? Which I know from experience isn't the easiest thing. You know, another question to ask yourself is like what's motivating you towards this potential reconnection? You know, are you going in because oh, so and so is getting older, or we don't know, you know, with what's gonna happen with everybody's health. Am I gonna miss a window of opportunity here? Like, I don't I think as much as these are compelling reasons to try to reconnect, I don't know that they're like really the most valuable reasons. I think unless there is something in you that needs to reconnect with this person, it might not be the best time, you know. And I would say to anybody who is expecting to get something from the other person, you're gonna have to figure out how to get over that before you even think about reconnecting because you can't place any expectations on another person to give you something that you need. You can't hold them accountable, put them on the hot seat, or make them answer for their crimes.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Right. It's just like setting yourself up for more loss.

SPEAKER_05 39:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:57

Yeah, like like you said, you gotta live. In the moment. You can't live like there's anything that's left that's owed.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

Yeah, and and really I think instead of considering what the other person is bringing to the situation, probably spend as much time as you possibly can figuring out what it is that you're bringing to the situation. Try to put everything back on yourself. And like I'm not saying that like you ignore the fact that other people have fucked up. You don't ignore the fact that you know you've been hurt because of their words or actions. Sure. But it's not on you to hold anybody personally responsible. That's on them to own their shit. It's on you to own your own.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Right. Do you feel like your mom is a completely different person than she was before?

SPEAKER_05 40:45

No.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Because I find that there are certain I feel like how you described her to me was almost like to a T, except for her being unapproachable.

SPEAKER_05 41:02

Yeah, like it I can't say that she hasn't changed, but she's not a different person. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

She's still her.

SPEAKER_05 41:11

Yeah. And I I think like the biggest change is in um the way I look at her. I did a whole episode about it actually called Verbs, where I realized that, you know, like I had sort of typecast my mom into the role of being whatever this negative combination of things was. I wasn't allowing her the room to like move and shake and you know flow and do whatever it is that normal people do. Like I guess I've allowed her to just be her without like a whole lot of stuff riding on it.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Uh-huh. Has your reconnection with your mom affected the family in any kind of way?

SPEAKER_05 41:57

Again, I don't know like exactly how to answer that. I like I've I've talked to a couple of different people in the family about it. Like my sister Elle, I think she's probably the most affected because she's the one who's got the big house, she's the one that likes to do entertaining during the holiday season and things like that. So like when we create reconnected at the tail in the summer, the first thing out of her mouth was, Oh, this is awesome. Now like I don't have to worry about who to invite at Christmas time. Everybody can show up.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:30

You know, it was a big thing for her. She likes the fact that like if she's out for coffee with our mother, you know, and iPhone her and say, Hey, do you want to get together for coffee? She doesn't have to like ditch our mom to come hang out with me. She just say, Look, I got mom in the car, we'll be there in 15 minutes, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:47

Um, like talking to my younger son, who's 12 now. Um I think it's a he's got a bit of a relief because he is very, very loyal to me. And I think for a long time, like he was afraid to acknowledge the fact that he missed his grandmother and he wanted to see her. To him, he always played it off like, oh, it's no big deal, no, I don't miss her, this, that, and the other thing. But now that she is an option that's on the table, now he says things like, I'm really, really happy to have Nana back in my life. I really missed her. It was difficult for me, you know, knowing that you and her weren't getting along. You know, and for the for my nieces, you know, they're all about their grandmother. So I mean, they like and they they love me too. So I mean when two people that you love are getting along again, I think that makes it easier.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Right. Um, this is one of the first like reconnection episodes that I've done. It's been also awkward because I'm kind of involved in the situation. So um I really don't know what else to say. I mean, it's kind of like an in-progress thing. You know?

SPEAKER_05 44:09

Yeah, we'll keep you posted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

I guess. Uh, one day at a time, life in the moment. I have one more question to ask you. And you might hate me. Did you want to talk about key?

SPEAKER_05 44:31

That's um that's not the easiest thing to talk about for me.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:45

So we've talked quite a bit about my sister Elle, um, who's my older sister, my younger sister, Key. Um her and I were were always very, very close when we were children. And I think like the first time that you interviewed me, you know, I talked about she's kind of like a terrible person. Which in a lot of ways she is. Um I've come to realize that these are not things that are her fault. She's a person who's got her own struggles, which I won't get into just for the sake of respecting her privacy.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 45:31

Um, a lot of these things that she struggles with, I think, make any possibility of a relationship moving forward extremely unlikely, if not impossible. That being said, um she's a person who's frequently on my mind. I do love my sister very much.

SPEAKER_04 45:59

And um I wish that the situation could be different.

SPEAKER_05 46:10

And this is one thing where I kind of hate the limitations of owning my own end of things because I don't know what, if anything, I could do differently to make that relationship a possibility.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Have you thought about talking to her?

SPEAKER_05 46:34

Yeah, I've thought about it. I've thought about what that conversation might look like. I thought about what even trying to set up that conversation might look like. But um all across the board, that just falls into the category of I don't know. Just don't know how to make it happen, and I don't know what exactly it would look like.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

Okay, so I guess this would be my below the belt question because this is a question you asked me uh for my interview, but I think it's relevant and I think it's important, and I think this is something that might become habit on my show. So um if she were sitting here, what would you want to say to her?

SPEAKER_04 47:26

First of all, I'm sorry. I can't even begin to communicate how sorry I am for not showing you the understanding that you deserved. I'm sorry that I couldn't protect you from whatever it was that life threw at you that you probably expected that your big brother would protect you from. I'm sorry that I didn't pull my head out of my ass sooner.

SPEAKER_05 48:12

Because if I had if I'd recognized certain things about myself a little bit sooner, I might have recognized that, you know, these were shared characteristics between you and I. And I might have been able to encourage you to get the help that I found. And even if you hadn't gotten the help, maybe I would have had enough understanding to just accept you for who you are, and recognize that there's certain things that you were never going to be able to handle, and I could have figured out how to navigate around that.

SPEAKER_04 48:48

Most importantly, though, I would tell her I love you. I love you no matter what. And even if we never see each other again, you're always gonna be my sister. And if you ever need your big brother, I'm here for you.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Can you share a memory that reflects the relationship that you had with your sister? Key.

SPEAKER_05 49:29

Every Sunday after church, the first thing we would do is we would get out of the family station wagon, still in our Sunday finest, and I would run to the side of the house and grab my big wheel.

SPEAKER_04 49:44

And I would ride it down the driveway, and then Key would stand on the back and put her little hands on my shoulders, and we go tearing off down the road.

SPEAKER_05 49:59

And that was pretty much how early childhood was. It was always just the two of us inseparable, like 100% of the time.