Tori Wrånes

Tori Wrånes is a multi-disciplinary, or as she herself likes to call it ‘trans-disciplinary’ artist working largely with performance, sound, sculpture and installation.  Her immersive, fantastical, world-building shows challenge the viewer to rethink traditional ideas of identity, language, social hierarchy and the human body itself.  Tori has performed and exhibited her work in all corners of the globe and was most recently given the honour of representing the Nordic Pavilion at the 61st Venice Biennale.  

Explore more of Tori's work here

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:03

We are so used to just walking our own tracks all the time, and I really love to create this other world that we are not used to, and that does not give you the answers right away, but it just opens up something, then you have to think in a new way.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

That was Tori Mornez, and this is not a portrait.

NP 0:48

Tori Runes is a multidisciplinary, or as she herself likes to call it, transdisciplinary artist, working largely with performance, sound, sculpture, and installation. Her immersive, fantastical world-building shows challenge the viewer to rethink traditional ideas of identity, language, social hierarchy, and the human body itself. Touri has performed and exhibited her work in all corners of the globe and has recently been given the honor of representing the Nordic Pavilion at the 61st Venice Biennale. Touri, welcome to Nordic Portraits. Thank you. Touri, I wondered if we could start by going back to 2016, where you performed a spectacular work to coincide with the laying of the cornerstone for the new National Museum in Oslo. And it was a work entitled Crane Ballet, which aptly describes it. I just wondered what you remember of that day and the performance itself.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Yeah, I mean, uh, that's a good question because but I think what I really remember is being up there and having this insane peace. Like no one could reach you, and you're up there, and you just fully trust this person that is in charge of the crane. Yeah, I guess that's what I remember the most.

NP 2:12

So the actual performance itself involved Queen Sonia, no less, putting a stone in your backpack.

SPEAKER_05 2:20

Yeah.

NP 2:20

And then you were hoisted 40 meters high.

SPEAKER_05 2:23

Yeah.

NP 2:24

And beyond this spectacular visual was this really interesting use of sound.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Yeah. I really like to work spatially with sound and to have it travel physically because sound is so physical. I mean, it's invisible, but it's so physically uh moving in the space, and I really love that. It's almost like ghosts in a way, but also like the physicality of like a proper soupwoofer is so bodily satisfying. And uh, what we did was to place a lot of soupwoofers under the skeleton of the building, they already started to build, and uh so when the queen and the crowd princess princess sat there, there was like this shaking uh floor. No, but as you say, I really because this was like the new National Museum, having this new placement in the city, so I guess through the sound, I also wanted to like uh say humbly hi to the neighbors. So um I did a collaboration with the clock tower with Laura Marie Ruizlotten. She runs the clock tower there and she's so amazing.

NP 3:39

And that's in the city hall, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

And so when I was lifted off the ground, when the queen had put the rock in my backpack, I mean, also what is really nice is that the queen is like famous for all these walks in the mountain with a backpack, and so I also felt like she was really pro just putting it so the rock didn't fell out and all this. So when the rock was in my backpack, I was lifted up in the crane, and immediately I started to sing, and then the clock tower answered. So there was like this duet with the city, and then a stain who was driving the crane, he was pulling my body in the direction of the new building, so my voice was kind of drawing the architecture in a way, and then we also had speakers on the other side because that was where I was landing, and we had arranged with all the boats in the harbor to hunk when I landed with the rock.

SPEAKER_07 4:36

But what happened was that there was this gigantic cruise ship entering, and then I was in the air, so I couldn't, I was just like, okay, and it was called Princess, and Princess was arriving, and then my studio manager at the time, Andreas, he was like phoning Princess and can you join this performance?

SPEAKER_04 4:56

When the corner rock lands, you have to honk.

SPEAKER_07 5:00

So when I landed, there was just this complete blast, like whoa, and also all the small boats felt a little bit overdrawn by the princess. But no, I really love to include the environment around the action.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Yeah.

NP 5:20

To me, that performance and your account of it also really speaks to this strong role that improvisation plays in your art and your willingness to not be in control. The fact that this huge cruise ship arrives and you're suspended 40 meters in the air, and you seem almost excited by the idea of well, let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

To be honest, I really love that to lose control and to just when stuff happens that I cannot control, that energy you get, like, okay, this just needs to be solved, and that calmness and avoiding of panic, just this opportunity to solve something immediately or just like flow with it. I I truly love it.

NP 6:05

Do you feel any sense of pressure or stress when you are performing? Because a lot of the environments you put yourself in are extreme, and I can only imagine the physical and mental exertion required must put you under a lot of pressure. Do you feel that?

SPEAKER_04 6:24

Yeah, I guess very much. Like before I start the performance, then I'm like, oh my god, why do I do this? I mean, why do I put myself in this situation? And I'm not scared. I wouldn't say I'm scared, but I'm super nervous and also excited somehow. But then it just takes a blink and then it's gone. When I'm on, I'm on. So I think it's just like the nerve before I start.

NP 6:54

So does that mean then when you're in the midst of a performance, you can enjoy it?

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Yeah. I think every performance is different because it really depends on the space and who's there. Like it varies a lot. But I think often I feel like just to be there and do the best I can, and to stay in the same room as the people that are in the space, and just remember that this is a sacred moment in a way that you built up for so long, and then it doesn't matter if it goes wrong, because we're just trying to create a moment, and that's the goal to be true in that moment. But sometimes when I'm standing in front of the audience, I can also have a lot of self-censoring. But I try to focus on the privilege of being alive these days, it's so crazy, and that I can actually yeah, I think it's such a privilege to be alive and to expect to wake up the next day, and then I think creating these or trying to create these moments is just a way to meet in a moment.

NP 8:06

Yeah. You mentioned that you like to be inspired by the location or the environments themselves. If we go back way back to the first environment that inspired you, you grew up in Ransund.

SPEAKER_06 8:21

Yeah.

NP 8:22

Just outside of Kristiansand.

SPEAKER_06 8:24

Yeah, that's true.

NP 8:25

And I wondered what that environment was like and how you feel that might have shaped you as a child.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

Yeah. I think I was not aware of how great it was, I guess, when I grew up. I think it's more like when I traveled out and then came back. Then I understand, like, oh wow, I'm so close to nature and ocean, and I can just throw myself in the boat and we'd go out and we fish, and it's so natural to do that. So now I live in the center of Oslo. I also have a small studio in Christiansand, but it's such a big difference. Like, here I can get so mad of all the asphalt, the concrete, and all this. I get a little bit like, oh my god, where's the fresh air? So I think it has definitely shaped me a lot to be that close to nature.

NP 9:19

Your father was also very active in nature as part of his occupation. He was a scientist studying birds and fish.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Yeah. I mean, he's an ornithologist, and he also teached at the university in biology. So he's been, I always really love to be his assistant.

SPEAKER_07 9:38

Even every summer now, I'm like his assistant. I help him building stuff, and I really love it.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

It's so nice. And I've been going with him on the sea, researching how many birds are still here, how do they change? And um no, it's really nice, also because he knows everything. He's like a living lexicon, and he can even like if he hears a scream of a bird, it's like, oh no, now they're arguing. You know, it's like all this second world. I mean, he just has this extra dimension to understand nature on another level than I, for instance, have. But I've been able to see a little bit through him.

NP 10:19

Do you think that that played a role in this sensitivity that you've developed for sound?

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Definitely. I think so. Because when I was younger, we went in the forest and we had to listen a lot and be super quiet to not interrupt what's going on already there, and also to listen where things are moving, if it's an animal or if it's birds, whatever is moving there. Then just that listening was so intense. So, in a way, I felt like the sound when it moved, it was like drawings in a way, in my mind. When a bird was flying from one side to the other, it was really like yeah, it was like a drawing, the sound.

NP 11:07

I love that. What was then your understanding of art growing up? Was it something that played a role in your family home?

SPEAKER_04 11:16

No, I don't think so. I mean, it was more like a practical thing. Like my grandmother was very much into weaving and textiles, but that was because she needed it. She was even weaving the bedlinen and like making the yarn and the textile that was creating the weave. I mean, she did everything, but it was always practical. So I think for me, even today, I'm not so it's not so important for me that it's defined as art or I mean, I don't know. I get a little confused as well because of course the aesthetics and the forms and all these shapes, they are so relying to this art history. And I think that is just like a whole world of knowledge, but it's kind of so mixed to what's already in life. I think what I love is just to sit on a bench and just watch the live performance of people just doing their daily life things. If you sit down and you think of it, like, okay, now I'm gonna look at this performance, even just the person putting the shoe on or whatever, if you just put the attention on it, it's like so interesting.

NP 12:31

You mentioned performance. You joined a rock band when you were younger. Was there ever a sense that that was gonna be the thing that you dedicated your life to?

SPEAKER_04 12:42

Yeah, I don't know. I think I really wanted to end up as a handball player on the national team. That was my dream.

NP 12:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

I was super into that, but then there was this situation where at the high school we were also creating this musical, L'Emissarable. And then I had to choose because it was deeply serious with the handball. And frankly, I think the handball was also very much about these rhythms and how to compose something and how to look for the openings. Yeah. And it's very much linked to how I work with composition and like, okay, I need a violin here, blah, or maybe one voice or whatever. And it's like the wing on your team, running up, doing a solo, bang, chang, in the goal. And I think this thought of this collective, I was really into like the team, to be a team and to work together towards something.

NP 13:43

Yeah. So obviously you join the musical instead.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

Yeah, yeah.

NP 13:47

But performing as a vocalist, I mean, you can get that team spirit or sense of camaraderie from being in a band.

SPEAKER_04 13:53

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I loved to be in the band in the beginning. I was so uh I remember they called me, like, uh, we were wondering if you want to be part of this band, and I was like falling off the couch. I was so happy. But then, I mean, we played together for 11 years, which is quite crazy, and we were touring a lot, but I think it felt in a way a little limiting because we were five different individuals and these guys were so cool. I don't know, I didn't feel at home in a way in the visual, always having to be like this female, newly showered, dressed up person. So I think the last years I really felt like, oh, this is not because then I started the art academy, and suddenly I hid myself. I remember we were doing this workshop where we were just going to be some other characters, and I was a Norwegian writer in the future or something, and I had this neon glowing dress, and for some reason I found a knitted scarf on my shelf when I went out, and I put it just around my head, and then I brought my accordion and I was playing this song inside this textile cloth or whatever, and it was suddenly this freedom of I don't have to be so naked, I can just be the voice. It was such a release to just let go of having to be a band representing like this. I don't know, the rock band has a style in a way. It was really a relief to just hide and shout.

NP 15:44

Well, when you did start at the Art Academy, you'd already studied in Christian Sand. And my understanding of that was that you really just wanted to have a student loan, so you you then enrolled. But that gave you a real insight into the craft side of things, like you learned to weld and sew. Was that formative in your development as an artist? You you know a lot.

SPEAKER_04 16:08

Yeah, I mean, I think I've always been in love with different tools, like the practicality of just creating things and the different materials. And being in this rock band, I had to stay in Christian sand because that were where we had the rehearsals, and we were super serious, like we rehearsed many times a week. And so then I started to study, as you say, like all the different crafts at the school, and I loved the chainsaws, like all the different saws and all the different techniques. I really loved the freedom that I feel confident in all these different crafts, and I can just like I can do that myself. And this I think is a great freedom for me to have this knowledge.

NP 16:54

Yeah, that must have been a great starting point for you at the Art Academy to have these, not that you mastered all of them, but toolkit at your disposal that you can draw upon as you're starting to develop your own style.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Yeah, yeah. That was really, really good. And I also love the workshops in the academy. But I think I also had a shock in a way when I started, because I had been a lot in theater, and the mentality is so different. People are so extroverts, and everyone is like, ha, hey, almost too happy, you know. And then when I started academy, I remember everyone was so into themselves. It was almost like I had to build up a high in the corridor, you know. And then it felt really different. I mean, I loved my class, and I really loved to start a new class. I always did because it's so interesting with humans. Yeah. But then I think when I did the master self, when I really fell into place in a way, and I knew how to move around in the school, how to stay in the workshops, and you know, the person that is watching the house in Norwegian we call it Wachtmaster.

NP 18:13

Yeah, housemaster or janitor.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Yeah, that's something my dad taught me. Like, the housemaster is the most important person at the university. And he always went there to have coffee in the morning, and and I think I just that's like the main person that knows if this space is available, or like, and then I think when I did the masters, I just understood how to correct that code in a way. So yeah, I actually moved in to the academy.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Really?

SPEAKER_04 18:46

Yeah, yeah. I slept there also because I had used all my loan because I did all the study in Christiansand, so I could not get any more loans, so I had no money actually to rent the place. So I just moved in and stayed there, and then I understood when the guards were coming, and yeah, it worked well.

NP 19:08

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

Yeah, and even the last year we were because all the academy was moved together with the opera, with the theater school, and the ballet, and I lived in this tower before they rebuilt it. And then uh my card was working for all the different apartments.

SPEAKER_07 19:32

So in the night I could I could just lock myself into the ballet studios and bring like music and I could just dance. Ah, it was so nice.

NP 19:44

What a creative playground.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

Yes, yeah, it was really good. Because for me as well, that worked so much crossover, it felt also very natural. I think um when they open up fully, it became actually more difficult with the crossover because every department became so afraid of losing their autonomy in a way.

NP 20:05

Yeah, was there ever an attempt by your teachers or mentors to try and shepherd you into one particular art form? Or did you feel like this multidisciplinary approach you had was always well supported?

SPEAKER_04 20:19

I think so. Yeah. They never tried to push me. I think the first years it felt quite lonely actually, because there was almost no one else. There was one guy, and we were talking a lot in my class, but then on the masters, they understood that I maybe needed someone from the performing field. So then I was allowed to invite this amazing artist, Sisel Andresen. She works with improvised singing, and I think that was so amazing for me to meet someone. And she just came into my studio and she was like, She didn't sit down with the computer like a lot of them do, but she just walked around and and looked, and then she said, You work quite tarbu-free. And I was like, What do you mean? And then she teached me the word taboo-free.

NP 21:10

As in unafraid of breaking taboos.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Yeah. I think maybe she saw that there was this performative, but also very, I don't know, it felt like I was allowed to do whatever I wanted. I didn't have to fit in somewhere. And I think that for me it's all about the space and what the space needs. And it's almost like the space is the main character. And then whatever is needed in the room. Okay, I need to turn up the volume, but I could just as well turn the volume up in color or in form. It doesn't have to be sound, but it can be sound. And it can also be like to balance the space, you need a lot of sound and just a little bit of color, or a lot of form, and just it's like this dynamic map. It's just all the time there with any kind. Technique or material.

NP 22:02

How soon when you engage a space for a new project, do you have a sense of what is required?

SPEAKER_04 22:12

Very often I can just walk into a space and it can happen like that. Like with the grand piano in the wall of Lufuten. I just saw the mountain. And then it was okay, we're gonna have a grand piano there. And then I learned later that there was a cannon actually during the world war that was falling down. And then I started to think like, oh, maybe it's not a coincidence, maybe it's the unconscious knowledge of history that is just working this out. I don't know. But uh yeah, I think the space very often tells you what it needs, you just have to listen very careful.

NP 22:55

Of course, you then played that grand piano.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

Yeah.

NP 22:59

Suspended on the edge of a mountain.

SPEAKER_07 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:04

One day I almost because that was in north of Norway during the light hours, so it never became dark. And of course, I was hooking myself into this rope to climb down. But uh, when there was no light, we forgot to go home because it was so nice to just work. And then there was one day I was climbing down and I almost forgot to hook myself on. So then we were like, okay, we have to go home and sleep.

NP 23:35

Well, another project that I wanted to touch on briefly with you, Tori, is your work for the Thailand Biennali in 2018, entitled Nam Y.

SPEAKER_05 23:47

Yeah.

NP 23:48

You did it on the island of Krabby. And yeah, I just wondered if you could share a little about that project because for me it encapsulates so much of what I associate with your work in terms of working in a challenging environment, the engagement of locals, and how you require the audience to participate.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

Yeah. I mean, it's so nice when you ask the question. My head is like it has five different roads on the answer, like rah. But just when you said nam y, because it means big water, and the title is the name of the season when we were there. That's the season when the water moves mostly from high to low during a day.

NP 24:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

And I just really liked that name because that's how I wish the society was that we could actually be accepting like a really high tide and low tide, and accept each other being different and just have that inclusion in a way. So I really liked that title because sometimes when we arrived on the scene, the island that we were supposed to perform on was not even there because the high tide was hiding it. And that was again like what we talked about earlier: this unpredictable. Even when you work outside in nature, you can't control it, and you just have to roll with it, which I love. And also when I was asked to do this project, I had been writing projects for really long. So I was like, I'm gonna swim in this one. So we went on the site visit, and I just asked the person that was taking care of me, can we just go for a swim to have a look around? And then we just started to swim and we found this amazing island. Yeah, I think it's nice to challenge the audience. So the audience had to swim or paddle to see it.

NP 25:39

Yeah. And then you occupied the space with these. How would you describe them?

SPEAKER_04 25:45

Creatures, maybe. I mean, the story is that they were born out of the crying mountain. So they were born out of the dripping tears. Because actually, when I arrived at this place, right before I had been to this famous tourist beach that's called Rayleigh Beach, and there was just pieces of meat in bikinis all over the beach, and it felt so grotesque in a way, how we just take over nature. So when I came to the island, it felt like this sacred space, and then immediately I felt like okay, we have to ask permission and check if we are in the way of like any birds or life that is already here, because I think nature already, you don't have to do anything because it's already like the nicest thing. Whatever you do, it's in a way not needed. And actually, what happened was that I asked the nature reservoir in charge, and he took us around, and then he said, like, this is actually okay, you can do this, you won't harm any animal or nature, but we have to ask the holy princess to be allowed to be here, and that was really interesting because that was something else than I had expected. So, what happened was that we went the whole team, and I had a monk in my team because I always work with local people when I go somewhere because I feel it's not my ground, so I have to work with someone that belongs to the place, and then I can learn through that. So he was playing the pea flute and he said, I can talk to the princess. Then we went to this cave, and it's full of these wooden giant penises because everyone is sacrificing these giant penises to the princess that lives in that mountain. And our friend, the monk, went into the mountain and we were all standing outside, and it was really like if we could do it or not. And then a little later he came out and he was like, She allows us. And we were like, Oh, we can do it, she's okay, we can do it. And I really love that when you experience something new in a place, and you have to, yeah, the spirituality was super strong.

NP 28:16

So when the audience paddled out or swam out to this island, what was awaiting them? What did they experience?

SPEAKER_04 28:23

Yeah, I mean, we were dressed. Well, I mean, uh, the creature was already there. I'm like always thinking I should not say we were dressed. I love that it's an adventure or something that I really want to give someone. Uh, but the creatures were like really as if they came out of the mountain, and the mountain had this beige brownish color. And um, these creatures were just already there, and some of them were sleeping on the cliff, and I love to work with local instruments, and they showed me the P flute, which is this amazing instrument that is local to Kabi. So it was kind of like a scene that didn't have a clear start or ending, it just was there, like an installation, or as if it was there forever.

NP 29:12

Yeah, and you're inviting people into this fantastical immersive experience. What was the reaction that you received?

SPEAKER_04 29:20

I mean, a funny thing that happened was that there was this journalist from The Guardian that was just on holiday and he was like paddling by. And suddenly he was like, What the fuck, what's this? And he was filming it, and then he put it out online, and then it just went viral. And it was all these comments, like, what the f what is this? Oh my god, what are they on? And and it just kept going and spreading. And actually, there was this magazine that put them next to these monkeys that used to live there before. So they were like, Oh, these are the ancient animals coming back again, and humans should stay away, don't come close, keep nature sacred. And I didn't plan for it to be all that. I mean, and I had even put the image of when we made the costumes on my Instagram, but someone was writing me, how dare you! How dare you make fun of what really happened in Krabi? Stay away from the creatures. So it was really like it just went on the story of these creatures that arrived, and then they were also playing flutes, and it was insane.

NP 30:38

I love also that that just highlights how we as humans have this innate need to put something in a box and neatly label it.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Yeah. It's it's crazy how big that need is. I think it's really, I mean, I guess that's probably my main drive in my work is to avoid all those boxes. That's why the creatures don't have like a specific age or gender, they are just free from all that. But I think us humans are so hunting all the definitions, and it's natural, like to put it on place. Okay, now my brain can rest, now I understand. And I think in the same way, it's linked to people like, but are you a performer? Are you a visual artist? Do you do theater or video? It's I mean, but it's just one body, and it's just part of the same world, it's just different techniques and views, and I love when it's 360 degrees form, both mentally and physically. Yeah.

NP 31:50

Another part of the audience journey which didn't make things easy for them was subadventure in 2019. What attracted you to perform submerged in the freezing Arctic water of northern Norway?

SPEAKER_04 32:07

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I have a good answer on that, but I think I I love a great challenge. But I think also my brain is very much like, okay, what's the opposite? And I also work out of this sentence, the opposite is also true. It feels always like that. And I think when I did the project in Thailand, I was so afraid that the performers would faint inside that fur, you know, it was so warm. And then the opposite of that would be to bring us underwater. And uh there is something with the water as well, like that travel from Thailand to Hoksta, because the water is really what connects us all. Like how the nature just solved those borders so much better than us humans. Also, north of Norway, even though I come from the south, it was closer to home. And uh in Thailand, I also took the diving license, so then let's use it. And then I did my first night dive in fur. Yeah, and again, I think I just really love to challenge the audience. This time they didn't have to swim or paddle, but they arrived in a boat and we drove them out to this platform in the middle of the ocean, and they lay down on their bellies with a water pinochar and look down.

NP 33:31

So, this notion of wanting to challenge the audience, is that fundamentally because you feel that by extracting them from their comfort zone, they're gonna be more open to the message of the work?

SPEAKER_04 33:45

Yeah, I think so. I think you're right because we are so used to just walking our own tracks all the time. And I really love to create this other world or like to bring people into these other worlds that we are not used to, and that does not give you the answers right away, but it just opens up something. So your brain needs to create new answers. I mean, because we are on this hunt to place things, but when you don't have the regular associations, then you have to think in a new way, and also you get this relief, this uh freedom of not referring to all the daily things. I love to put people on a boat and drive them, and they also had like this survival suit because I mean it was really cold in the water, so if they fell off, they would have to be protected. Yeah, I also love that they were in the boat together, like this shared experience in a way, also for us underwater. I think to be this group that also did this together, like this gang in a way, that is so opposite of lonely. I mean, that magic of being in the surface before the performance, inside these giant bodies with full equipment, just to get into the water was so crazy because it's so heavy the gear, and even to get up, then the fur everything was wet. So every creature had two persons from Red Cross helping us up because it was impossible to stand. But like this moment when you are in the surface of the water, you can put your eyes above the surface or under, and the sound just changed so much from when you are over and under. It's like really in the middle of these two worlds, and then when you go under, you are still with your friends. It's I don't know, I will never forget this moment.

NP 35:53

Yeah, well, that's something I'm really interested in because you mentioned these words experience and moments. And as a performance artist, primarily, it makes me think of the fact that obviously the performance itself is so ephemeral. You can experience it, but you can't revisit it in a concrete manner, like a painting where you might be able to exhibit it again 30 years later. Is that at all a frustration, or is that something that actually appeals to you?

SPEAKER_04 36:22

I love that moments are sacred and that they can never be recreated in the same way. Because even if we did this interview tomorrow, it would be so different, or maybe similar, but there is no guarantee because everything can change. And uh that is what makes the performance sacred for that specific moment.

NP 36:47

Of course, another example of you working closely with a local community was Flute Warriors in Bogota.

SPEAKER_05 36:54

Yeah.

NP 36:55

What first made you think to do this performance and collaborate with the trans community in Colombia?

SPEAKER_04 37:02

I mean, actually, I'm gonna give the credit to my friend Olga Rubaggio, who is from Colombia, who runs this place there. And we went to the art academy together, and uh, she's amazing. She's an artist and creator, and it was her thought to actually hmm, I gonna put together Touri and Red Communitaria Trans. And uh yeah, that was such a privilege to work together with them. I mean, I have so much respect for that energy and level of effort to continue to live and fight for the right to exist as a trans person in a scene where it's so not acknowledged at all.

NP 37:46

Is it true that at one point in the development of the project they called you to say we might be able to save some money if we do this naked?

SPEAKER_04 37:57

Yes. I mean, what a great idea. Sometimes you just forget the most basic things, and I think that was so smart. I think we had like 30 Norwegian kroner, which is like three euro per costume. I mean, our budgets were like, and then we did not know how to like work around this, and Maximo just called me. I think I found a solution on the budget problem. We can save money on costumes if we go naked. I think that was so nice, and it was so fair because I think for me that would be the most challenging thing to do. I'm not super comfortable to be naked in public space, and especially if you work with performance, that's like such a loaded thing because all the performance history is like naked people rolling in blood. But I think I learned so much from them about being comfortable with your body and being proud of your body. They really challenged me, but I also challenged them, and I think it felt really important to do it together, and it was for sure a collaboration. I was not more in charge than they were, and I had just brought like a flute, this willow flute from Norway, which is very traditional. But there is this thing with the willow flute that if you play it, it's in the same scale, it just matters if you blow hard or soft, then you change the tones.

NP 39:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

So it it felt like something we could meet in.

NP 39:35

Beyond this particular project, Tori, when you engage people, often individuals working and living in or close to the location where you're going to perform. I'm curious, do you see a development or evolution in these people as they get involved in your projects? Do you see how people are impacted or affected personally by their involvement?

SPEAKER_04 39:57

I mean, I think that is a very big drive in my work, this interest in people and just how the psych is working, how we are challenging ourselves and how much potential we walk around with that we don't use. And I'm super humble towards people that enter the project because I know sometimes it's really hard to find reasons to explain why you should wear fur now or why should we play this flute, because it's more a poetic reason than a mathematic one. And to see some of these travels when we really trusted Rajo, like when I got the trust from Red Communitaria Trans, when they started to trust me, uh for me, I can even start to cry just now because I think it's such an extreme thing. When you have trust in something, then you can just go as far as you want. There is no limit because you are together in it, and to see how much that social aspect of it can mean for someone and for me, it makes everything worth it. Even in Hachstal, the divers, they were just local working as free divers, and their boss was normally a bank chief, and she was really worried. She took me aside and was like, this is the most dangerous thing we have done. We have dived caves, we have dived everywhere. But this is the most challenging thing and risky thing we have done. And I think for them, I mean, I had professional safety persons with me, of course, and the costume and everything was made to reach the heart in seconds. But to see a person transform from just putting on a costume into being the creature and stop swimming like a human, but more like an animal would swim. I mean, that transfer, what a gift it is to just let go of all the ready-maids and just become something else and let that fantasy unfold without restrictions. It's so super strong to watch when that happens in people. Even in Hasta we had these professional divers, they were like changing things on the ground for companies. And then in the end, I mean, they enjoyed it so much that they were like, We have this robot. Uh, do you have some extra fur we can put on the robot? And and you know, when people start playing, yeah, I love it. It was like the crane ballet when all these five crane drivers started to lift all the machines from the ground, and then one of them comes with the idea, why don't we end in a star with all the cranes towards the middle and then all the machines hanging? I love it. When it becomes like you can tell that, okay, now the fantasy is working, and the fantasy can just bring us anywhere. I love that.

NP 43:02

Yeah, I've heard you say that it's like social choreography.

SPEAKER_04 43:07

Yeah. Wow. You are, yeah. Yeah, I think it is. It's like the social aspect of the project is almost as important as the result, or maybe more important. Like this work in Colombia. I mean, I learned so much about myself, I learned so much about the power and the freedom we have in art. These people, they were only accepted as artists, sex workers, and actionists. So as an artist, you have to remind yourself of the freedom you have. There is no restrictions actually. And if there is, you have to get rid of them.

NP 43:48

Well, in relation to this idea of no restriction and building these fantasy worlds, you've incorporated trolls in your work on multiple occasions. But you seem to approach. Approach the troll figure, not so much in terms of folklore, more in a symbolic way.

SPEAKER_06 44:05

Yeah.

NP 44:06

I'm interested. What are trolls to you and what made you want to incorporate it in your work for projects such as Singer and Stone, for example, at the Sydney Biennale?

SPEAKER_04 44:16

Yeah. I mean, I think I just love everything I can't prove because of this endless potential that is in that unknown or undefined. And I think the troll is a very good example of that. I mean, the troll comes out when it's dark. I mean, if it comes out in the sun, it cracks. And I think that in a way we are all trolls. That was my philosophy in a way that we just keep the most private things for ourselves, and then we pretend that we are great humans and we actually function very well in the day. But I think we all go around with sorrows and things that we don't share necessarily. So then I was embracing the troll as a figure that I felt comfortable with and where I could be myself and not being judged or feeling shameful for being myself. And then I wanted the troll to just come out any time of the day and be proud. And you are right, it was not directly connected to the visual of the trolls. But I guess that's why I also brought it to Sydney because I thought at that time I should bring something that comes from home. And uh it was the troll.

NP 45:35

And there was an improvisational element of the language through song.

SPEAKER_04 45:40

Yes, I was singing into the tail. Again, this refers to the sound being very physical in space, and there was this rock in the ceiling, and when I started to sing into the tail, my voice came out of the rock, and the rock dropped from the ceiling, and then my voice was swinging back and front in the ceiling from one side to the other, and I was improvising, singing in this non-verbal language that is accessible to anyone, I guess, and just based on rhythm and emotion. Yeah, so I was singing, but I had like a deep voice that was one um octave down than my real voice. And I also had brass players locally from the music conservatory in Sydney, and they were standing in the scaffold playing, and in my head the sound was drawing a cross in the ceiling with the wind instruments from both sides, and then the rock pendulum between them. It was like a cross going up and down and up and down.

NP 46:46

Again, sculpting with sound.

SPEAKER_04 46:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

NP 46:51

Would you, if you feel comfortable, be willing to share with us what that sounds like?

SPEAKER_03 46:57

I mean it's very uh just like sodimbadi siri from hoodabas Born in Laden Saudi and Mod Hut for Dosni Mod That's beautiful I don't know that was what happened right now.

SPEAKER_04 47:29

But I think you know when I was at the academy and I'm at Sislandres, she's like a super inspiration for me, and I really feel like it's important to mention because she's been working with this non-verbal language for so long, and she has specified it and brought that knowledge further, and it is also like this connection of the gibberish in the theatre and this like uh scatting in the jazz, like so devo da do-and and I think that combination is the road to freedom somehow.

NP 48:07

Does it feel more direct than words for you?

SPEAKER_04 48:10

Oh, yes. I mean, uh more natural but less distinct. For me, that was a big challenge in the rock band because I had to sing words, and it was like uh take me back, you know. And suddenly it's so closed, it's so distinct. You decide what everyone should know. But if you sing with an emotion, then you present something that can be received in so many more different ways, and I think it's also an internal thing, it just needs to come out. And the first time when this language arrived was in this performance called uh Your Next Vacation is Calling at Lilit Perform Studio in Malm. And I had been working so much with this space.

NP 49:00

It was a phenomenal space, so richly textured, and all these colours, albeit I've only seen recorded materials. But talk about creating a unique environment. I love your research.

SPEAKER_04 49:13

Oh my god. Yeah, I mean, and it was such a physical effort to create that. And I think at that time I was also very overworked in a way, and it was so intensely necessary to just work physically without the brain and just embrace the space and use all the paint that was left over from all the other performances, and just okay, that couch is gonna need to go through the wall, we're gonna have those bean bags dropping up and down. The physical aspect of it was so massive and so healthy for the brain. But then when the performance was going to happen, I hadn't time to actually write or understand what I was supposed to do. And then I felt like the performers that I had with me, they were still a little bit unsure of where we were going. So in the end, I was performing myself. And I think this has actually become a method to just don't plan too much the singing because that energy of when you don't know exactly that is a part of it. And I remember I was laying in this couch through the wall, and the audience came and I was like, I was thinking inside we've worked so hard, and now it's just us. Now we are just together here, and then this language just rolled out of the body like it's just us here, and we can just be here now for a moment, and I felt I had so much on the heart to say, but not specifically what it was, but it felt like this love train just rushing out of the body, and I think then I realized no matter what happens, I will always just have this language and sing. I can just sing.

NP 51:09

Just as we draw to a close, Turi, I wanted to make sure we had time to talk about the Venice Biennale.

SPEAKER_05 51:16

Yeah.

NP 51:17

Because you've just opened your show at the Nordic Pavilion in collaboration with Kara Kristallova and Benjamin Orlo.

SPEAKER_05 51:24

Yeah.

NP 51:25

The exhibition is called How Many Angels Can Dance on the Head of a Pin. And I'm interested what the process was like and how it feels for you to now finally have the doors open to this big show.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

I mean, it's a little crazy that we are done because it's been so intense. I think it's a very different process if you do it together with someone than if you do it yourself. And regarding everything that is happening in the world, like it's really going off its hench. I think it's been really important for me to just lean into that dialogue with both Clara and Benjamin. And they are really amazing people. In a way, it could be a challenge that we all work with sculpture about object in the space, but I think it actually solved itself in the end, and I'm really proud of exhibiting with them. And at the same time, it's so weird that we have opened the pavilion now because it feels so close. It's like leaving a baby there and go home.

NP 52:36

Is there a euphoria associated with finishing something of this scale? Or do you almost have a sense of melancholy about ending this creative journey?

SPEAKER_04 52:48

Um I think because I love to work. Like the physical work is really nice, and I love the ending of it. But then the challenging work for me is it's really crazy when the doors open and everyone's walking in, and then oh yes, okay. Oh, oh my God, now it's open, and it feels very overwhelming to meet so many people and speak with people. I think that job is maybe the most challenging part for me. And then I never remember that this is coming, that that part is coming because I just focus on the work, the practical work. And then suddenly there's like a lot of people that you're talking to, and then even if it's just speaking for five minutes, then I have their their life in my head. Uh oh, and all the filters are gone because your body's been working so much.

SPEAKER_05 53:45

Yeah.

NP 53:46

Yeah, I wondered if that then makes you feel a little vulnerable because you have slowed down and you're between work cycles at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 53:54

Yeah. I to be honest, I really don't know how I am right now. Because I just got back uh yesterday, I guess. Um, maybe there's a little grief there somewhere, but I also think like today, I was like, I just want to work and I want to make stuff because now the body has so much adrenaline to just continue. But then actually, what I need to do is do my calculations for 2025. So that's a bit annoying.

NP 54:29

That's the unglamorous side, like the rock star coming back from a tour and putting out the trash cans at night.

unknown 54:36

Yes.

NP 54:38

I've noticed, Turi, in QA's and artist talks that you've given, that you really enjoy interacting with your audience and hearing their thoughts on your work and discussing it with them. I wondered, does that extend to the world of art criticism? Do you read what art critics write and are you interested in what they have to say about you?

SPEAKER_04 54:59

I mean, I yeah, I guess so. Um, but not too much, I feel. Like I know there has come some critics now, but I haven't read them. I am excited about it. But I always think that if I'm happy myself, then that's what matters. If I manage to be true and reach somewhere where I wanted to go, then that's the that's the most important. And I think I learned that because I'd made a sculpture many years ago that got censored. It was during this terror attack on the island at Utteya in Norway, and it was during a court against this guy, and it was terrible what happened. But I had made this sculpture of this astronaut girl sitting on the ceiling dreaming, and she had this fantasy cloud full of toys floating out, she could reach as long as she wanted, and then there was a parent in the kindergarten that thought that from a certain angle in a certain daylight, the fantasy cloud could remind of a weapon. And this is not wrong. This is the fantasy of this person after a trauma, and I think that is very interesting. What happens with creativity and fantasy when the world changes? And that discussion is super interesting. But what happened was that I was asked to make a new sculpture and I had to pay for it myself, and it was like a very hardcore situation to be in. And then the media and everything went off the horse. It was, I mean, it was quite hard to stand in it, but also I realized that I know what I have done in this project, and I can stand for it. I'm proud of what I've done, but I could not read everything that people were saying. And I guess that's when I learned that the media is not always true. Yeah. I mean, some of the comments were also very funny. It was like, it looks like she made it blindfolded and drunk. I mean, and there was also actually, I remember one critic. I think it was the first time it was actually mentioned in the wall text that I was queer. And there was no trolls in the exhibition, but this critic had written, and the title was okay, now I have to remember it. Uh can to riverone's queer feministic troll fight and the patriarchy. And it was, I mean, the whole text was just slaughtering me. And I think it was for me uh hard to read at that time, but uh also it was very creative.

NP 57:53

Final question for you, Tori. At this point in your career, with so many varied projects under your belt, do you still feel like these fantasy worlds that you build are necessary for you personally?

SPEAKER_04 58:07

Absolutely. I think uh they save my life. I don't know, even if it's like uh to change a space, it feels like drag in a way, to create this reality where you can walk out of yourself and just be free. And I know so little. There is so much to explore.

NP 58:33

Well, we look forward to you continuing to explore and taking us on the ride with you. Touri, it's been such a pleasure talking to you today, and I just want to thank you for taking the time to share your story with us.

SPEAKER_04 58:44

Thank you. It's been really nice to speak with you.

NP 58:55

Nordic Portraits is a series by me, Ben Catford. The music was composed by Nina Leal and the visual identity by Copenhagen-based studio frame. To learn more about today's guest and all the others from this season, visit Nordicportraits.net. You can also follow us on Instagram and remember to rate and subscribe on iTunes so we can get the word out. Thanks for listening.