Devin Robinson: Avoid Regulations With The Installment Method

From the streets of Los Angeles to the thriving communities of Charlotte, North Carolina, Devin Robinson's journey has been nothing short of extraordinary. As a serial entrepreneur with a diverse portfolio of 16 ventures since 2013, his career spans across a global photography company with projects in 30 countries to spearheading a dynamic real estate investing company and fund in the Southeast United States.

Now settled in Charlotte with his wife and their three adopted children, his life is dedicated to more than just business success. His family's journey through fostering and adoption has ignited a strong desire in him to address the affordable housing and foster care crises in the United States. Devin's Big Hairy Audacious Goal (BHAG) is transformative: to impact the lives of 10,000 families by providing 1,000 units of affordable housing across 10 states and wield enough influence to drive significant change in the foster care system and affordable housing programs.

In this episode, Devin will do a complete breakdown of The Installment Method. He explains why it is one of the most secure ways to acquire real estate using creative finance and also how it can help overcome regulations being brought down on wholesaling real estate.

Learn more about The Installment Method at https://www.installmentmethod.com/a/2147575710/fx6hfFZ7

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey guys, welcome to the titanium vault. I'm your host, rj base, the third, and today I'm sitting down with Devin Robinson. How are you doing, man?

Speaker 2: 0:08

Good man, fantastic Thanks.

Speaker 1: 0:10

Yeah, so tell the people a little bit about what you do in real estate investing and why you're here today.

Speaker 2: 0:17

Yeah, my name is Devin, I live in Charlotte, north Carolina, and I started out doing wholesaling and I always tell people like in a very unorthodox way, about three years ago a little bit under three years ago actually and then since then I've been able to and I'm really thankful I've had an amazing team, I've got amazing people that have really pushed us pretty far forward, and so now we do wholesale a good amount of wholesale.

Speaker 2: 0:43

We do new developments, land development, fix and flips. I also run a real estate fund and so raise a ton of capital for that, and so we're always looking for really interesting and creative ways to utilize that capital, while like saving the most amount we can to build portfolios or to maximize profits, and so it's been really cool along this journey to learn like different creative things like sub two. And then what I'm excited to chat about today is a lot about is the installment method and how we're utilizing that to save money, build a portfolio, protect ourselves, do a lot of things that people normally kind of actually aren't doing right now, and so I'm actually pretty excited to talk about that. But that's a little bit of context about me now and where I am.

Speaker 1: 1:25

Yeah, so I was taking a look every guest. You know they have different ways of delivering who they are to me. Right, sometimes people just write up a bio, copy and paste it. You sent over a full on website about you, man, and you've done so much. I loved it, but it looks like you know. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is the first thing you mentioned on your bio. Here is 16 business ventures. Oh yeah, so are those all in real estate or is that all over the place?

Speaker 2: 1:58

No, great, great, great. So I have crashed and burned a lot of businesses and learned a lot along the way and sold some and kind of just been in between, and so it's interesting. So the business ventures is like I actually counted like some of those of like pretty heavy like YouTube, podcast type things, but then I had eight businesses, like eight different businesses that I've done things with. I probably should take like the 16 business ventures off and just stick with like the businesses. But so no, historically, like in the reason why you probably saw like a whole page, is because I had a marketing company at one point. I had a wedding photography company at one point that like I photographed weddings in 30 different countries around the world and had teams and all kinds of stuff. So it wasn't like oh, that's cute, like you do wedding photos and so very visually appealing, and so that's why, like, I sent over that media kit to make it easy for people, because then it's like oh, here's a cool little bio, here's some pictures, there's a timeline, and so like I've been a little bit more on the visual side of things. So it's really interesting to move to real estate now, which is a lot more, a lot more, I guess, like right side of them I can't remember right side or left side of the brain but a lot more analytical, understanding the numbers, and it's a lot more process oriented and driven, which I historically have not been but was forced to be about two years ago when I started wholesaling by just by literally taking houses from Zillow for sale by owner and then sending them to hedge funds and like that was it. That's all I knew about wholesaling and I didn't have a disbo list, I didn't do cold calling, I didn't do anything like that. So then that was in like the golden era of wholesaling, which is 2021, right, like I started April 2021.

Speaker 2: 3:43

Between April 2021 in November, I did like 70 deals and then with just all hedge funds in Zillow for sale by owner, and then between November and February of like 2021 into 2022, when interest rates started to drop, hedge funds stopped buying. I had to I mean really the business like shut down. I had to lay off all of our staff and move out of our office. But then I really put my head down and for six months just dialed in our systems and processes and I was a part of I still am a part of Collective Genius and because of that, like literally because of that mastermind, I was able to take resources, build out the systems and processes and create a company that we have set the foundation for, the company we have today.

Speaker 2: 4:25

And so I went from a very creative mind. We built out courses for people, I did huge commercials for Kubota and ESPN to like real estate. So, but it's only because of the resources and the community and the people that I had around me at the time that allowed me to kind of push through that. But I knew like, at the end of the day, real estate was the thing. Like real estate man, like generational wealth, I'm building something that's bigger than just like not that taking photos and creating videos isn't big, but like I'm building something that has a potential to create a massive amount of impact in the world. And like that's where I just went all in on and so crash and burned and honestly did not exit well on a lot of those, because I saw like so much in this and so, yes, that was the long, long answer to your short question.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Well, I will say this one day I'll touch base on your start there by getting deals Fizzbows on Zillow. I still do that. I still teach it to our students. I just did one yesterday. It's hilarious. We just started titanium university, which is our new community and our new education platform, and that was one of the first things I told. Everybody is like hey, yeah, the inbound leads are great, cold call is great, but, dude, go get you a low hanging fruit Fizzbow every now and then you know, and one of my guys inside of the group.

Speaker 1: 5:50

He goes this doesn't work in the state of Florida, so turn on the webcam and I said let's see how long it will take me to get a deal under contract. It took me 27 minutes and 25 seconds to get a deal off of Fizz or off of Zillow in Jacksonville, Florida. It wasn't even in the booties.

Speaker 2: 6:10

I mean that's a fantastic spot.

Speaker 1: 6:13

Yeah, so you've been. Should collective G a shout out to our boy Leon G Barnes?

Speaker 2: 6:18

Leon G Barnes. Yeah, don't worry, I watch P T D.

Speaker 1: 6:23

Yeah, he's such a good guy man. So my question on the business venture is where we move on to the rest. Yeah, for the people that are looking at this, that are like those, like you you know I hate the phrase, but it just misused sometimes but the serial entrepreneur, right, what advice would you give to them? That you know they want to start multiple businesses. They have a passion for photography, but they also have a passion for real estate. I mean, should they do that? Should they not do that, what advice would you give?

Speaker 2: 7:00

So okay, so there's like three things, three things here. One, I think the phrase like entrepreneur is romanticized in our culture, right, everybody wants to be an entrepreneur and I'm like, listen, you would do way better in your life if you worked and had like a steady job and a steady income and insurance and all of these things, and your wife or your husband will probably be way happier with that as well. And like I think there's just this crazy draw in this crazy like social pressure, this through social media, through all these things, that we feel like we're not doing something with our life if we don't own our own time and own our own business. And I just think I think most people that even just call themselves entrepreneurs are not built to be entrepreneurs and I think end up folding under the pressure, like their life ends up collapse, like it's tough, it's hard to do, because that also leads into the number two thing is I watch a couple of podcasts and there's a podcast called Diary of a CEO and he's like I mean it's literally just a guy who interviews billionaires and CEOs of large companies and he said the number one, literally like the number one consistency through all of those people is that they didn't quit. And so there's this idea of like if you believe in it strong enough, if you feel like it's something that you want to pursue and like you have just a strong conviction on it, the thing that really gets you over to that next level is not quitting. And so this leads into part number three.

Speaker 2: 8:23

It's really hard to to do that on two different things. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I don't think it can be done at a high level on two startups Like I. Just if you're thinking of two startups, then like, definitely not. But then we look at people and it's like oh, richard Branson, all these people own 40 and 80 and 100 companies like Mark Cuban. How is that possible? Well, it's like they have equitable ownership in those companies. They don't lead the and maybe they jump in on a meeting once a month, but they're not leading the day to day on all of those things.

Speaker 2: 8:52

So on that, like the B side of part three that I just mentioned, you have to have a very solid infrastructure and leadership team that allows you to step away to do something that you're also passionate about. If you want to do multiple things like that, I think that it. I don't think it's impossible. It's very, very difficult to start two things and do them both really, really well. If you're starting both of those things, because they require so much energy and so much attention to be done well at a high level, and if you're not going to do it well, don't do it at all, because then you're just going to hurt yourself, you're going to hurt your family, you're going to hurt your clients, you're going to hurt your employees, because then they're bearing a burden that they shouldn't be because of. Honestly, like what ends up happening is a mismanagement of time, a sense of overwhelm, and then you end up shutting down and there's so many byproducts of that that end up playing and permeating into all sorts of aspects of your life.

Speaker 2: 9:44

So I'm not saying it can't be done to do multiple things, but I had that company and that company was run at a really high level. I had photographers all over the country. I was probably one of the highest paid photographers in the whole entire country, and so that was done really well and I felt like at the time I could step away from it. But what I did not have in place was like SOPs and KPIs and things like that that help you to actually manage the metrics. For me to stop in once a month and go, hey, looks like we're down leads this week. What can we do to pick that back up? To stay consistent, I didn't have those in place, even though we were operating at a high level just because of competency. We weren't operating at a really high level to have consistency.

Speaker 2: 10:29

And so then I jumped into something completely new, thinking that I had the capacity to do both of those things and I just didn't not at a high level for both of them.

Speaker 2: 10:37

And so then like, honestly, the photography business crashed and burned and then I sold it.

Speaker 2: 10:42

But then like this now, like this, where I'm like, okay, it's at the point where I have the real estate company, like the whole selling side of the company, and then I was able to start a fund and run it at a very high level, because I spent six to nine months building out the SOPs, building the foundation, so that we can monitor and manage the metrics that we have in our company. So I'm going to stop in and go hey guys, I'm looking at our stoplight report this week, or I'm looking at this, and it looks like we're a little bit off here. How are we going to pick that up? And then now I can spend the remaining time of my week focusing on raising capital and expanding our fund. So like that's where I think it's really really difficult as an entrepreneur to do two things really really well unless you have the infrastructure in place for you to like oh okay, I feel like I feel good about moving into this other direction and this would be taken care of.

Speaker 1: 11:30

So that's completely, completely agree, bro. And here's the thing it's hard enough to be an entrepreneur you just said at the beginning, hey, it's romanticized in our society. It's hard enough to be a good entrepreneur for one venture, much less trying to do multiple Right. So let's go to today's topic, man. This is there's, there's concern in the streets, you know. I mean, we got, we got Virginia saying, hey, you got to have a license, the wholesale. We've got Nebraska bringing down regulations. South Carolina stride already one of the most difficult states to wholesale in. They're trying to now pass another bill that just outlaws wholesaling altogether.

Speaker 2: 12:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:15

You can't even do it. And that's just a few, right they're. Originally, the regulations were attacking the assignment of contract, right, yeah? Now it's like they're really trying to come after it and be like no, let's just end wholesaling altogether. So today you are here to teach us about this installment method. Okay, so break that down for me, man. What is the installment method?

Speaker 2: 12:40

And I'm glad you, I'm glad you prefaced with all of those things, because those are like they are a reason why I use it, but, honestly, they're the smallest reason why I use it Because, like, there's so many good benefits for it and I'll talk about it historically and all of those things but there's so many good benefits for it that protect you, that enable you to maximize profits, do all those things that are really nice. Byproduct of it is it protects you from regulation as well, and so let's definitely talk about those, because I typically don't talk much about the regulation, but I'm excited to talk about that because, like you're right, and what's also really funny is the guy that essentially created the installment method is actually the guy who? He's one of the nine South Carolina real estate commissioners and he was telling me the story and he said Devon, I woke up that morning.

Speaker 2: 13:26

Wholesaling was completely legal, you could do it. We went into our commissioners meeting and when we got into the meeting, we covered this case of this lady that got screwed over by a wholesaler and about 20 minutes I walked out of that meeting and you could no longer wholesale in South Carolina. And so I thought to myself man, the last thing I want is that is, for nine people to get together and dictate the future of my life, of my kids, life of my family and how my employees get paid. That's the last thing I wanted, and so it was really interesting when I learned about the installment method at a collective genius meeting.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Real quick, Devon, real quick. On that note, nine people sat in a room and they heard a sob story. Yep, Did anybody mention? Did anybody say, hey, can we go get all of the hud's, the settlement statements for the successful wholesale transactions that went down in the past 12 months?

Speaker 2: 14:21

Didn't matter. Didn't matter to those nine.

Speaker 1: 14:26

Insane. All right, I'm probably going to get more red, as it bothers me so much I could tell no, and that's.

Speaker 2: 14:36

And that really is the crazy thing too, because and as we know and as we've seen and it's happened faster than I thought it was going to happen when one state goes like that deep, like what, like goes that far in it, it just fall, like it literally is a domino effect. It's like, oh okay, they went. I won't even tell you, oh okay, so I was. So I was talking to him and he was like hey, we just had our real estate commissioners meeting in Canada. First of all, I don't know why they would go to a whole other country to do that, but anyways, but it's funny, Great guy Actually. I love, I love him, he's a great guy. And I was like we just had our real estate meeting in Canada and I was talking to somebody and they are trying they are a real estate commissioner in this state, a certain state, and they're trying to get sub twos like ban, Like, and I'm like Holy smokes, If they can't control it or regulate it or get paid from it, the real estate commission, then they want no part, Like they don't want there to be any part of it. So that's like the really interesting concept here is like it's getting regulated by people who, I think like are emotionally like hurt by it, not just like in a very logical sense, or financially right affected by it. So so I met with these guys. So I went to the collective genius meeting and I was at dinner one time and I met these guys and I was like, hey, what's up and what do you guys do? And they're like, oh, we're in South Carolina. I was like I'm in South Carolina as well, Cause I, my company, we buy, we wholesale, we buy, we develop in North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida. And so they're like oh, I'm in South care. I said, oh, I'm in South Carolina too. And they're, and they're like what do you do? And I said I wholesale. And they said, oh, you do, you probably shouldn't. And I was like well, tell me more about it. And so they started, started telling me about that case and what happened. And for me I saw two opportunities, or I saw two things here. One, what I just said about my family being affected by it by nine people. The second thing I saw was Holy smokes, that means all of my competition in South Carolina is now gone, and so that means if I can learn something that then allows me to go in wholesale. I've got a huge leg up and, like it's shown, South Carolina is very strong for us, because I think this is already scaring people off, and so I can't imagine, if they pass that second one, what's really going to happen. And so for me I'm like let me buy the whole state of where some data, I'll buy the whole state, and so and so then I learned more about installment contracts, or this installment method is what they told me about, and then I just started doing them.

Speaker 2: 16:56

And what installments were was? They started back in the 1800s, when there were no conventional contracts, there were no anything like that to set up mortgages and payments where people would go in on their land and they would create land contracts, installment contracts for their land, where they would go on. They would go as an, they would put an equitable deposit down, have an equitable ownership, and then, once they paid off the remaining balance, the deed would then get transferred over to them. So that's what an installment contract is, and so they've been. They've been happening for hundreds of years, and then move in into the 1960s and 70s, when redlining became really popular and minorities couldn't get a price approved for loan. They couldn't get conventional loans. They moved into installment contracts again and it actually became very predatory on buyers because of racism and because of disagreed, and so what would happen is these buyers that would be in these installment contracts would miss one payment and immediately get foreclosed on.

Speaker 2: 17:52

So a lot of states now this is like Arjad, I think you'd appreciate this A lot of states actually created legislation and and rules and regulations protecting buyers more than they protect sellers in this. So states like Texas, you can't do a contract for deed, but you can do them for up to six months, and the reason why they did this is because so many buyers to protect buyers. So in all of these states there is federal, federal IRS law, case law on protecting buyers and allowing tax benefits for installment contracts, which is awesome, because then it makes it like hyper, hyper legal right. We were being interviewed by these people and they were like oh, you're trying to do so many things to skirt around in order to wholesale, and I'm like wait, a second, wholesaling is skirting around a little bit. Where this is like, this is the thing that's actually legal and protected. So it's really cool that this actually has so much legal backing to it where title companies, title companies, title insurance lenders all allow, all allow these installment contracts and then they became so.

Speaker 2: 19:04

Then they were used through the nineties and then it was like I don't know, like a ghost, like the last 20 something years nobody did them at all. So then, if you talk to a title company that opened within the last 20 years, they got no idea what these are. So then, like there is a little bit of an issue where right now, like I have to train title companies on what the heck this is. But if anybody was in here like before the nineties, then they could do. Then they're like oh, I know what it that this is, but essentially I wanted to give the history so you understand like, oh, that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 19:35

So essentially what it is is, let's say, I want to go under contract with you, RJ, and I say RJ, and, depending on what type of methods you use, you'll probably hear a very similar pitch here, where we give our cash offer and if somebody doesn't want the cash offer, then we go okay, I can see, let me go check with my underwriters and my team and see if you'd qualify for our installment program where we would be able to get you, like our cash offers 160, I think I could get you that 200, and then would it be helpful for you, RJ, if I also gave you $500 now? And you'd probably be like, yeah, and so what I'm doing is I'm actually putting down an equitable deposit on the property. So this isn't like an EMD, this isn't a DD in North Carolina due diligence, this isn't that. This is an actual equitable deposit or a consideration on that property. So what happens is we then close.

Speaker 2: 20:29

We have I go all right, RJ, in the next seven days, my title company is going to clear the title, make sure the title is clear, we're going to do our due diligence and then we're going to have a closing.

Speaker 2: 20:40

In the next seven days, I'm going to give you that $500. From there, what's going to end up happening is our title company is going to record the contract that we have together with the county and they're going to put that $500 in there so that I now have skin in the game with you. I am now listed as an equitable owner because of that deposit on the title with you. Now, RJ, don't worry, you're fully protected. The deed or the title is not moved into my name. It's completely in your name. I just now have skin in the game to make sure I close for you, and so what is that happen? And then, after that, we'll close in the whatever 30, 60, 90, Steve likes to do 180, however many days we have after that. That's when you're going to get the remaining balance that we talked about initially, that remaining $200,000 we talked about. So now let's go ahead.

Speaker 1: 21:25

And what are you doing at that point? Are you listening in on the MLS?

Speaker 2: 21:29

This is.

Speaker 1: 21:30

Are we just trying to disbord normal. What are we doing?

Speaker 2: 21:32

Everything, anything and everything. So this is really, really fascinating. This is like my favorite part of this. On that set, like when that seven day comes, this is what I love when I'm just wholesaling I'm like, hey, we're going to try to close in 30 to 45 days, like, please, show up and sign. And what I'm doing here is I'm going in the next seven days, I'm going to get you your money. You do whatever you want with it, I don't care, you can go spend it on, I don't care what you spend it on, you're going to have that money, it's all yours. What they're going to do is they're going to show up to the title company. They're going to sign the deed. So they are actually signing the deed away from us and then it's held in trust or it's held in escrow. That deed is then held in escrow. They never need to show up to sign another paper ever again, ever. That's huge, that's massive, because in other methods I'd be like, hey, you're going to see that I'm going to make $100,000. Please, please sign, please, right. And so like right now I'm like they sign and that settlement statement says you're going to get paid $200,000. Actually, your underlying mortgage is going to be I don't know 150 and you're going to get 50. Right, that's what that settlement statement says. They never have to show up to sign a thing ever again.

Speaker 2: 22:41

I now am listed as an equitable owner because they file that title or they file the assignment or they sorry they file the installment contract with the county and record it, and so now I'm listed as an owner. I can now go and legally market it and list it with an agent and sign all the paperwork. They don't need to sign that paperwork. I can sign it. I can I actually do this? I flip properties because I don't have to worry about them running away or like not showing up. I actually don't even have to worry about them going. Hey, I like what you did to the place. I think I'm going to keep it Like don't have to worry about that because they've already signed the deed away. I can go and wholesale it. What's also really awesome is I can refinance it. So if I got it at a deep enough discount, yes, rj, thank you. I love when people look at me like that.

Speaker 1: 23:25

Yes, oh whoa.

Speaker 2: 23:27

Yes. So if I got it at a deep enough discount, I am listed as an equitable owner on that property. I can now refinance out that property and refinance the underlying mortgage and the seller as a payoff. And then now that is part of my rate and term and if you hold it long enough then you can cash out. So that is part of my refinance Freaking wild.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Dude, that is crazy.

Speaker 2: 23:53

Yes, it is. So I do all of those things like and imagine, bro, imagine how easy it is for us to get rental properties.

Speaker 1: 24:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:01

Man, it's crazy, yeah. So that's, it's incredible. I say it's wild, it's really cool, I do.

Speaker 1: 24:11

So, wow, there's so many, so many questions I have here, because you're right, this is. This is way deeper than just like a new way to wholesale Yep. This is a new way to essentially acquire any type of property, depending upon your exit strategy.

Speaker 2: 24:28

That's exactly right, and like it can change. So like we'll flip properties and a seller is like nope, like let's say, the ARV is on higher end houses like 600s and above, and the seller wants all their money, I'll go, okay, here's what we'll do. I'll give you now, the minimum you should do is $500. And then like, okay, imagine this pitch to RJ. So let's say, the seller goes 500, is that all you can do? And then you go, all right, what if I could pay your mortgage until we close? Would that be helpful for you? Right? And then what happens is this is the great part about this All that money is credited to you back at the closing, so it's not even really coming out of your pocket, it's coming out of their profits. They're just getting it early, and so it's wild. So then I'm like, would it help if I covered that for you until we close? We're like no wholesalers doing that, no wholesalers being like I'll give you money now, money until we close, and then the money at the end. Nobody's doing that. And so what we'll do? For like bangers, absolute bangers, I'll be like, especially like expensive ones. I'll be like, okay, what if we gave you five $10,000 now, and then you want the top price for your house. Okay, so what if I went ahead? You moved out, I renovated the property and listed it and then we split the profit 70-30. Would you be interested in that?

Speaker 2: 25:42

A lot of times they're like oh yeah, that's really cool, I'm protected, they sign the deed, I'm not worried about them running away. Then we have our agreement for that 70-30. 70 is usually our way because a lot of times we deal with foreclosures. We actually do this. A ton with foreclosures is we'll do this installment contract and then reinstate the loan. Because I'm not reinstating the loan without being on that deed in some way safe or form and being protected. Then I can reinstate the loan and then begin flipping. That's why we take the 70 of the 30. Then we can be so creative and so solution-oriented for these sellers because we're completely protected. A lot of it's credited back to us. We pay a lot of first month rents and moving, which typically people do as well, but moving, first month rent, down payments, whatever, we'll pay those, but then it's all credited back to us. Essentially, they're just getting an advance on their profits. It's freaking awesome.

Speaker 1: 26:38

This should also allow you to be able to do deals that otherwise are too tight for you to do. Exactly, it's the same pitch for a novation?

Speaker 2: 26:49

Exactly, I love Brewer, love Brewer and what he's doing.

Speaker 1: 26:53

It's the same thing there. Where it's like, okay, I'm not getting it at 70, 75 percent of ARB minus repairs, I'm more at like 82 or 83 percent, all right, we do the installment, we go listen on MLS and then we're taking our split right there. It's a done deal. Because the concern there with the novation is is there's still the potentially angry seller at the closing seeing how much money you made?

Speaker 2: 27:21

Exactly In this case. Not even a thing at all. They never show up the only time they ever. Now I will tell you, in New Jersey, you cannot hold a deed in escrow or a title in escrow. Then what happens is you'll just tell them hey, you're going to come back on our 30, 60, 90 day or whatever. When you come back, you're going to sign the deed and then pick up your check. They still aren't signing a HUD or a settlement statement. They already signed theirs. All they're doing is signing the deed and picking up their check. Still, they're not getting mad at you. It still works out really well.

Speaker 1: 27:54

What happens if it's a deal that we give them the $500 and then it's like a highly distressed property? We're going to essentially try to wholesale it and we can't move it. We can't get the number that we told them that we could give them. What happens then?

Speaker 2: 28:10

Fantastic question For us. That's why we've created a $30,000 minimum on installments. If we know it does not pencil 30K for us, we're not going to do it, just because then that puts too much risk because it's a non-refundable consideration, non-refundable equitable deposit. Everything you pay does that. There's a lot of times for us and this actually makes it very I can't tell you how many times I get texts from sellers being like you're my hero, this is incredible, thank you. Because they'll be like hey, my car broke down, can you send me some money? Or like, hey, this happens and I literally would just Venmo them like $1,000 or like $2,000. I'll take that Venmo receipt, send it to my title company and so like, literally would just Venmo them and they'll be like you're my hero, thank you so much. And so it's like you look like the hero here.

Speaker 2: 29:00

But to go back to your question, you got to make sure that it pencils, otherwise, like that hero, money is gone, just a nice guy if you can't sell it. So it's got a pencil for us, for us in order to do an installment contract. Because you got to think you're paying your consideration and closing costs on the front end. So, depending on your state or wherever you are, and if you get title insurance or not. That can be anywhere between $1,500 and $3,000. So this is where, honestly, this actually turns. Ooh, don't hate me here. This actually turns wholesalers into investors, right, like wholesaling is a marketing and sales company, and then, like now you actually have to put money down and you're now investing into this property. So that's where I think then you got to go okay, I actually have to put money down to make this happen. Now you're investing.

Speaker 1: 29:47

Exactly. It's a much well, I give credit to anything that you're doing in the creative finance realm. I mean, it's sophisticated. There's liabilities that come along with that. Like, you need to understand the game that you're playing at that point in time. If there was ever a scenario where you did just need to walk away, how do you, how does that go with the paperwork? Cause there is a site, is it just like, okay, we trumble up and that deed never actually got signed, Right?

Speaker 2: 30:20

Yeah, so I love that you asked this. I actually knew this was gonna be the next question. So what ends up happening and this is what makes it fantastic, like about not actually going on the deed is that you just quit, claim your equitable ownership off of the title, so, like it's not messy, like if you were to sub to it, and then go, oh, this deal didn't work and try to like send it back Right, like that's not what this is, because you just have equitable ownership. It's very similar to just having a list pendants you literally are just releasing it and so it's very it's it. That's that's what makes it. That's what makes this easier than other creative methods, cause the title isn't actually transferred over. So in case you can't sell it, then you run into that, but you also can.

Speaker 2: 30:59

So my title company in South Carolina does not do this. My title company in North Carolina puts in language that we actually will turn this into. So there's sometimes where we don't owe the sellers much and we end up paying it off and I'm like, hey, can you just sub to this? And then they're like, all right, yep, boom, sub to, is it Moved into a sub two? And so then now the deed is just transferred over to us without having to pay the underlying mortgage off. Instead of, like with an installment, I would have to pay off the underlying mortgage as well. Now we're just switching it and then going into a sub two instead, because I've paid the seller enough to satisfy what they were getting so like. It still gives me a ton of options along the way, regardless of what happens.

Speaker 1: 31:39

And that's a bit of it, of having multiple strategies there, right, I mean you got them to light up at times the same day as a sub two seller finance hybrid, right, I mean, that did I was gonna say you could seller finance this.

Speaker 2: 31:50

You could definitely seller finance this to where you go. Hey, this has been fantastic. Do you want to extend it 20 years? You know, like, or whatever you want to do, like, yeah, sure, just do it So-.

Speaker 1: 31:59

All right, let's talk about I'm trying to find some hole in this. Let's talk about like worst case scenario okay, yeah, we signed, the paperwork is sitting in escrow and the next day the house burns down.

Speaker 2: 32:16

Okay. So what we also will do is we can go ahead because we are on the title and they'll sign a POA at closing. We actually go ahead and list ourselves as beneficiaries on there as well.

Speaker 1: 32:27

So there's no way that the house burns down and then they get all the money and then it's like you're just left with nothing.

Speaker 2: 32:33

Yeah, because you have that and they signed that, you can list yourself as the beneficiary on that insurance plan.

Speaker 1: 32:40

Now, have you ever had to go through a claim process where there was like a water damage or anything like that? Is that? I've always wondered that, because I know you do the same thing in a sub two. We've never actually had to follow a claim on one of those yet. Dockham Wood, right? I don't want to.

Speaker 2: 32:56

Yeah, for real.

Speaker 1: 32:58

Yeah, I mean your list of those beneficiaries, but so are they, and it's like now there's all the conversation right.

Speaker 2: 33:05

So this is good and I and I'm gonna be honest, this is where I like oh, I can't remember, but there is there is wording that because they've sold it away and because we have that, then we can actually claim the money on that. So there is wording in there that allows us to be the primary beneficiary of that plan, especially if we're saying, hey, we're gonna renovate this property along the way.

Speaker 1: 33:25

And here's the thing that's like such a one-off scenario. I mean, hopefully it never happens to anybody, but it's never gonna happen to someone out there. I just was curious so, when you were doing acquisitions on deals, how what is like the percent of installment methods actually being offered.

Speaker 2: 33:47

So for us it's 100 percent, unless it's going to be a sub two. The reason why is because it just so. People are always like what's the avatar that gets this? We do a ton of foreclosures, but we also pull 80-20 data, so we get a ton of big data stuff. Just think right.

Speaker 2: 34:04

So foreclosures, of course they want their money now, like that's security for them. They're happy about that. They get money now and along the way Fantastic. Also, you can structure it however you want. A lot of times we just put the 500 down and then nothing until close, and then sometimes we pay them monthly however you want to structure it. So.

Speaker 2: 34:22

But imagine they're on a big data list. They have high equity absentee. They're getting called by 10 other people every single day and the other people are just offering them cash offers and our offer can be more every single time, because we live in Charlotte, where you can sell a dump in Charlotte on the market for 80 percent, like really you could, and you know that. So for us, we pitch it every time because it beats everybody's. Nobody else is offering money now, money along the way, and their number Like nobody. So we just always push it unless they take our cash offer the first time. But still then if they take our cash offer the first time then it's usually a banger. So then we still move it into an installment because we want to protect those profits. And so, like the last, because imagine, really good, really top level wholesalers still have a 25 to 30 percent drop off from contract to close.

Speaker 1: 35:20

Yes.

Speaker 2: 35:21

And so imagine if you just turn that into 100 percent, because they closed within the first seven days and so we're sitting at 31 percent terminations.

Speaker 2: 35:30

And you're the best Like and so like. There's this, and so that's where it's like, and my thing is these people need money and if you go, I'll give you money in seven days instead of I'll give you money in 30 to 45 days. They're showing up in 70 days and signing that deal, that deed, to get their money, and so then, like they're locked in, they can't go to another wholesaler it's stronger than a memorandum. Like they can't go to another wholesaler, they can't back out, they can't pull out debt against the house, they can't do anything else, and so and so in that set, after that 70 days, your close rate turns to 100 percent, unless you feel just really bad for them and decide you want to terminate. So it's, it's really awesome.

Speaker 1: 36:12

Yeah, it's it. I was just sitting there as you were talking about it and I'm like what would be a scenario where you wouldn't want to turn this into an installment?

Speaker 2: 36:22

Yeah, it's tough bro.

Speaker 1: 36:24

It's tough If you're already doing it.

Speaker 2: 36:28

I would say, OK, I would say you run title, like you run title and they've got liens and you don't want to be a part of it, Like that's it.

Speaker 1: 36:36

I would say which happens a lot. A lot before Closures, especially when we just had a deal that we had already assigned before. We got the title commitment back and it came back with the twenty five thousand dollar water bill and fifteen thousand dollars of back taxes and I think the total contract on the property is for like twenty thousand. So I got to.

Speaker 2: 36:58

I got to tell you one. This is literally last week. This is literally last week. Oh yo, ok, think about how creative this is. I actually just made a YouTube video about this. I haven't posted it yet.

Speaker 2: 37:08

This guy calls one of my acquisition guys and he's like I don't know what the heck to do about this. So this guy owes 15, 15 K in arrears. The house is in Cary, north Carolina, like I mean like a better market than Charlotte, and so like it's in Cary, north Carolina. The house is worth four eighty. Principal balance is a hundred thousand, and then he's fifteen. No, I think he's like forty thirty, thirty five thousand behind.

Speaker 2: 37:33

So like I remember the payoff was like a hundred and forty thousand dollars and I was like yo, this is awesome, but there is a one point two million dollar judgment for a for a fraud case on it. And so, like this guy was like hey, I didn't want to sub to it, right, because if I sub to it I would have had to pay off that judgment. So like couldn't sub to it. So this is where, then, the installment method comes in, because I can get the equitable ownership pay, reinstate it with security and not have to worry about the underlying mortgage until I go to sell it. So our plan with this guy was or the judgment until I go to sell it, our plan. So this guy told me that case happened like 15 years ago. There is a. There is a oh, what's it called when something like expires in the law Statue of limitations.

Speaker 2: 38:20

Yeah, there's a statute of limitations on it that that ends in 2026. This is what he told me. So he goes I would love to enter into this where we can sell it in two years. And so I was like OK. And this guy was even like I'll pay you rent for it. And I was like OK. And so he was like statute of limitations ends in two years, we just hold it.

Speaker 2: 38:39

Then we flip it there, the judgment is gone because of the statute, and so then the installment covered that right. Like I can reinstate, I can have that equitable ownership, I can flip it and I don't have to pay off that judgment until it expires. And like, if I substituted, I couldn't do that. And then it got to the point where my title company they like looked at the judgment and they're like this guy happened because of fraud and all this stuff, like don't do this. And so we didn't do it. And so that's a case where we did not do it because there's a $1.2 million judgment. Because they were like that attorney would come after you probably. And I was like, yep, don't want that. And so didn't do it. But it was a really creative way to get around and be able to do that deal without having to pay off everything that was underlying. That was really interesting.

Speaker 1: 39:21

Yeah, it is, and it feels like If you're a full-time wholesaler, like we are, in the volume that we're doing, the majority of our deals should probably go in as cash offers. Unless the cash offers denied, then we go installment method. But once we understand that title is clear and it's a good deal and it's everything we want, we transferred into the installment method. Is that what you kind of recommend?

Speaker 2: 39:49

That's what we do, just because it I Mean it just essentially guarantees the closing. Now the the only reason why the closing would not not go well or go through well is because the other title company doesn't Understand it. So we typically will be like close, like, make it mandatory. So for us on all of our MLS listings you have to close with our title company or we literally just are not gonna take your offer at all. And if you don't want to close, so like, you have to close with ours. So it's pretty, it's mandatory for us with installment methods, because then it opens, that deed is held in that same title company, closes in that same title company instead of having to send it to another title company Because it's a physical copy of the signed deed. So, like, just leave it all in one place, do?

Speaker 1: 40:31

you. Do you ever Say you got like just a banger of a deal and then you got a killer offer. But they are like what? I'm the buyer, I'm paying the closing costs, it's my title insurance. Do you ever offer to pay for the?

Speaker 2: 40:48

yeah, so then, like I want to make it as easy as possible because like the Only downside I would say to this thing is is like I have seen the other title company Almost kill our deals more than once because they just don't understand it. So I would be like, sure man, I'll pay some of these closing costs for us to do this, because that it needs to get through. I just want this to get through and like Other title companies just suck when it comes to this and here's the thing I mean when you get into any sort of creative finance.

Speaker 1: 41:21

The one thing that a lot of people don't want to talk about is is the education of the title companies. That is going to be necessary. Dude, I've had to educate title companies on doing a double close and doing a pastor of fun. I mean simple it is, but I remember doing that. Dude, it was Seattle Washington. They had never done was a fidelity national title and it's like here's all of my fidelity national title, summits, statements from across the country. You guys do this. Y'all are totally okay with it. So fidelity is fine with this.

Speaker 2: 41:55

In South Carolina there's a fidelity company and they're like we don't know what this is and I was like your bosses know what this is.

Speaker 1: 42:05

So and then the other part of that is is at times you also have to educate Banks and lenders. I remember the first time I tried to refinance a sub to and the bank was like you don't own this. And I'm like, yes, I do see this, this is the deed I know. Owner. Looking up on CAD, I'm definitely the owner, just because there's an underlying mortgage and they sometimes just people don't understand. And what you need to realize is there's a lot of times it is a very low salary person that works for the company that just doesn't understand what you're talking about. So there is gonna be that now, on this on this note, I mean with the installment method, I'm sure at this point there's people that are like dude, I'm ready to get going. Is there, do you have resources or an area where people can find, like, the contracts that are necessary? You know resources for a Problems that come up during this is do you have anything for that?

Speaker 2: 43:05

Yeah, 100%. So when I met those guys, I ended up doing a lot and I've done more than anybody else has done. And so then they were like, hey, why don't you help us with this thing? And so they had already created this course, and so then they kind of had me come in and kind of do a little bit more of it, but they had created this course that I had gotten and, and so, yes, they have a course on it.

Speaker 2: 43:27

Well, I guess we all have a course on it that you can go and check it out, but we also give you a free course version of it. So if you go to Installment method, comm back, slash freebies, you'll actually get a free course. That has me walking through like exactly what this is, walking through some of the talking points, and then Steve train teaching this to his team, like it's a really cool back in that I help walk you through, like honestly, a lot of it. And then and of course, they do have like the course that goes along with it, but that should be like the freebie should be a really good starter to that.

Speaker 1: 43:56

Love it, love it. Yeah, also on that note, steve was the first person that called me about this In typical Steve fashion. Okay, you're way better at explaining it than Steve.

Speaker 2: 44:11

Oh, thank you, that was nice.

Speaker 1: 44:13

I mean Listen, but at some point time you're gonna be good at something. We don't know what it is yet, but it's definitely not. This Devin just destroyed you on. Explain the installment method.

Speaker 2: 44:24

No, I'm sorry, steve, you're better than me on other things. I.

Speaker 1: 44:29

Love Steve. I just gotta give him a hard time at all times. Um, on the the, the last question I have for you is you said, hey, you can go do an installment method and then you can refinance, and it obviously my eyes shot up.

Speaker 2: 44:44

Yes, sir.

Speaker 1: 44:44

So You're not Technically recorded as the owner. So if you're talking to the lender they're gonna look this like you're gonna fill out an application and then they're gonna be like but you don't even own this property, so how could you do a refinance?

Speaker 2: 45:03

Great. So what happens is because, like we have now, this is where understanding the history of these is so important Because, like, how did they do it without banks? Right, like had to had to be done without bank banks. So most of these lenders have a contract for deed, um, have a contract for deed like, uh, I don't know what you would call it, but essentially like a contract for deed stipulation In their lending by laws or whatever, and so that's what this would fall under. Some of them have just have a longer seasoning period behind it and you can set up your. You could set up your thing, um, your, your structure of your, your negotiation, to fit that, if you want to. Some of them have a year long, some of them have shorter.

Speaker 2: 45:41

My biggest suggestion is to find like Five mortgage, like really good mortgage brokers in your area. Let them know what you're doing and then tell them to go find you somebody, and so They'll find you somebody that has a really good contract for deed stipulation that allows you to refi. One guy was like I still haven't been able to do it with him yet Um, because, like, he's very tight on his buy box for this or his lending box for this. But he's like, uh, bro, he goes okay, you do a contract for deed, I will do a no seasoning period, cash out, refi on it. I was like whoa. And then I sent him one. Then it was like not on modular homes, not on this, not on that. And I'm like, oh my gosh. But like the fact that he's willing to do that was like okay, cool. So it's like you just have to look at contract for deed or like land contract, right, like you just have to look for those stipulations and some of their bylaws.

Speaker 1: 46:28

Love it, love it, man. Um, I've been like, and then that's what I wanted to bring you here for. And, and going back to the original title here of avoiding regulations, um, this is going to. You'll have to significantly help in places Like South Carolina if South Carolina passes the bill when they say wholesaling is illegal. And here's the thing I made a reel the other day, and when I do my reels, I sit down Most of the time. I'm trying to be funny at them. It's just my, my personality. I want to make people laugh. But I made it where. I was like, hey, I don't really care what the dumbass government does, we will always find a way. It's like you cannot stop us. Okay, and, and here's the thing, south Carolina passes this bill, then I am going to do exactly what you're going to do I'm going to turn up my marketing in South Carolina.

Speaker 2: 47:24

That's exactly right.

Speaker 1: 47:25

And every single conversation is going to be based around the installment method, getting it under contract and guess what? It actually just allows me to disboat easier, because I can do anything I want and because all those buyers in South Carolina are like we're all my deals.

Speaker 2: 47:42

Exactly and now I told my team last week I go Yo, we need to start buying data in Virginia. Like just is like. All right, bring on the regulations, I guess like.

Speaker 1: 47:54

That's the thing that no one wants to talk about when it comes to these regulations is? You said it? There was nine people sitting in a room, yep, and they made a decision because of one lady that got screwed over by a wholesaler, and I, I understand it wasn't that one lady. There's probably thousands of people that got screwed over by wholesalers. What they don't understand is is the tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars that wholesalers were moving through the economy, that were supporting Rehabbers, that were supporting contractors, title companies. What happens to all that revenue? If we think that it's going to get replaced by Realtors, then they really just don't understand how bad the realtor industry is.

Speaker 2: 48:42

Yeah, yeah, that's the truth, right there, that is. That is 100 the truth.

Speaker 1: 48:47

I mean just because they're carrying a license, not mean that they are the solution.

Speaker 2: 48:53

I just not a scale, not at scale, for sure.

Speaker 1: 48:56

No, no, so, Devin. I appreciate you, man. I look forward to finding ways to work together. Yeah and bringing the installment method inside of titanium university. Guys, I'm curious what did you think about this installment method? Is it something that you want to adopt inside of your business? Let us know in the comments. Make sure you like the video. Let Devin know you appreciate him sharing all this wisdom day. Devin, appreciate you so much, man.

Speaker 2: 49:24

I appreciate you, man. Thank you for you.

Speaker 1: 49:26

See you.