Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 16 (Braving Roots Music) Artwork

Braving the Stave

Hosted by Jonathan James and joined by Angharad Smith, a.k.a ‘JJ & Haz’ , this bubbly duo delve through all music and genres, sharing with you their personal favourite pieces, along with some musical jokes that add a playful and informal feel to the podcast. Working as part of Arts Active's Cardiff Classical programme, we run lots of exciting extras alongside it to support the concerts. Check out the Arts Active website for more - www.artsactive.org.uk
Got any comments for JJ and Haz? Email them to A2@artsactive.org.uk

Listen to the Braving the Stave playlist here
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Yn cael eu cyflwyno gan Jonathan James, yng nghwmni Angharad Smith, neu ‘JJ a Haz’ fel y’u gelwir, mae’r ddeuawd fyrlymus hon yn pori drwy bob math o gerddoriaeth a genres, gan rannu gyda chi eu hoff ddarnau personol, ynghyd â rhai jôcs cerddorol sy’n ychwanegu teimlad chwareus ac anffurfiol i’r podlediad. Gan weithio fel rhan o'r rhaglen Gyfres Glasurol Actifyddion Artistig, rydym yn cynnal llawer o bethau ychwanegol cyffrous ochr yn ochr ag ef i gefnogi'r cyngherddau. Edrychwch ar wefan Arts Active i gael mwy - www.artsactive.org.uk
Oes gennych chi unrhyw sylwadau i JJ a Haz? Anfonwch ebost i A2@artsactive.org.uk

Grandewch ar y rhestr chwarae Braving the Stave yma

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Braving the Stave

Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 16 (Braving Roots Music)

February 20, 2025 • Arts Active • Season 4 • Episode 16

0:00 | 35:19

Jon and Haz dip their toes into the ocean that is Roots Music, discussing its stereotypes and stigmas, its multiple instruments and crazy time signatures, and why pan pipes make for great massage music. Along the way, Jon talks about his own journey with the Dovetail Orchestra for asylum-seeking musicians, which has bases in both Bristol and Cardiff (at Eglwys Dewi Sant).

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Arts Active Podcast

Transcript - Braving Roots Music

Hello, my name's Jon.

And my name’s Haz.

I'm not JJ today 'cause you're looking at me as if to say…

You've got your serious hat on.

I've got a very serious, serious Tuesday today.

Mmhm.

JJ

Lots on my plate.

Haz

Yeah, and we’re going to talk about lots of different music today.

We were going to talk about Alis Huws, the former royal harpist who's performing at Eglwys Dewi Sant on March the 4th. That's a Tuesday as part of their lunchtime series. But we've just recently done a podcast on Braving the Harp.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

Where we were, well, I was a little scathing, frankly, about the harp.

We got lots of hate mail for... No, we didn't! But I don't know how much more I know about the harp, if anything. I've really scratched my brain and asked all my friends, so I think we're going to talk more general.

We don't want to scrape the barrel, do we?

Haz

No.

JJ

Let's… So we're going to be talking about something completely different. But before we go there, if you were to imagine what Alis Huws looks like as a Welsh harpist, listeners, I wonder what immediately comes to mind. I'm just going to bring her up here on her website and it doesn't get more Celtic than that really.

I mean, spoiler because I already know her from college. She's like, you know, like the most perfect packaged, just musician ever.

JJ

Harpist.

Haz

Yeah, she's just gorgeous. She looks a bit like Merida from Brave.

She's got the red headed look and the twinkle in her eye and the wraith-like figure and everything you would imagine from a Celtic harpist.

But tough as nails, because I think she's one of lots of... I think she's got siblings who are brothers. I think she's like the youngest of loads of brothers. So you have to be tough. I mean, you have to be tough as a harpist anyway, lugging that around.

Oh quite.

Haz

Yeah, exactly.

JJ

So we can look forward to her concert on March the 4th. I might be, I might be interviewing her in a special Braving the Stave extra. So do look out for that. I'm still waiting to hear back. But that would be rather lovely.

I hope you do, because she's a hoot. She's just lush. I know it's, yeah, typical, but yeah, she is.

We need that.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

We're going to talk about. Well, I'll tell you what, we're not going to talk about and that is world music.

Right. OK. So that's different from…

From what I think we should be calling it, which is roots music.

Now that, yeah, that's cool. I like that.

Because world music is very, sort of... If I say world music as a European, then I'm probably thinking of some jolly young fellow sort of beating his drum somewhere. You know, it's very colonial.

Honestly, what I think of as world music is a white middle-aged middle-class man with dreadlocks and wearing loads of like dish and colourful clothing.

JJ

Sheepskin.

Haz

Sheepskin, socks.

JJ

Sandals.

Haz

Yes, they've just come back from Nepal. They're like “you really have to go. It's like, I'm sorry, amazing this time of year.” And you're like, I don't care that you bought a drum. I don't care. Like…

Because I suppose… let's stick with the stereotypes that we might have as Western musicians when it comes to that whole label of roots music. And I tend to think, you know, on the negative side of it, I tend to think of, you know, a long drone and a sort of a slow build into a groove that lasts at least 24 minutes.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

And there's lots of chanting on one scale.

Haz

Yeah.

And basically you stay musically in the same place and it's all about texture. Which I think works live, but when I'm listening to it, you know as a recording, not so much.

Yeah. And I think that as Westerners, we would listen to that and be like, hey, that's great. We've really got some Indian influence there. And then over in India, they're like that is a load of rubbish.

JJ

That is nonsense!

Haz

That is, yeah, that is the typical western music, you know, so I think we are careful to, like, help appreciate the cultures, but without appropriation and then just going off on a 25-minute chant about meditation, then I don't know, just missing the point of the culture.

And the deep skill required to create those ragas and the intricacies of those textures.

I find it interesting that the further east you go, the harder I find it to listen to the instruments. Now I know you've just been on tour, haven't you.

Yes, I have, just plug my freelance career here. Just come off tour from Avatar The Last Airbender, which I didn't realise, but is a massive… it has a massive fan following. It's a cartoon about a little bald boy with an arrow on his head. You probably would have seen it.

I’m doing the demonstration, yeah. And it's all these different Asian instruments we're talking erhu and pipa and all these diffferent...

Yeah, I, whoa, I don't get on with an erhu fiddle. Let me just put that straight out there.

Now, it's right up my street.

JJ

Really?

Haz

Because it makes that “waw-wa-wa-waw” kind of sound, which is à la, my playing style, like very lazy.

Really. You're talking about a viola vibrato.

Yes. Wide vibrato, loads of what I would like to call lazy shifts just because I don't quite know the note I'm going to and so I pretend I'm brilliant.

I don't believe… there's a wide vibrato, and then there's a vibrato you can drive a truck through, right?

Yeah, yes, yes, exactly.

And that’s, for me, sometimes, and when you combine that with a very particular far-Eastern style of operatic singing, then I last about 18 seconds before I reach for the pause button.

Ha ha ha! Fair. Fair.

Or even the off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to say hard quit.

But we started on a bit of a negative note that I have to say that the same is true in reverse, that there's this anecdote and I don't know whether it's apocryphal or not, but when a Chinese listener first was played Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, the first movement.

“Da da da dee, da da da da” their response and their summary was, “Well, that was boring.”

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

And the guy said, “well, what do you mean, boring?”

It’s one of the greatest moments in the sort of symphonic… “It was just the same rhythm throughout. It's just “Da da da da, da da da da” all the way through.” So it's a different filter, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So perhaps I could just explore the typical stereotypes that we as Western listeners might have to global traditions, and I'm just going to play to you now Haz, four, I think absolutely hackneyed versions of so-say roots music. And you're going to guess where they come from.

OK, amazing.

[Music: Ernesto Lecuona: Malagueña. Artist: Ben Woods]

Eviva España. Yeah?

JJ

It couldn’t be more Spanish, that could it.

Haz

So Spanish, yeah.

JJ

Those Phrygian scales and shimmering of the guitar flamenco style. You can see the dancers coming on and... Now the interesting thing is that is that so-say world music, roots music?

Is to everyone who isn't in Spain. This is what I mean, like, Indian people don't call Indian food “Indian food”. They just call it food. Do you know?

Yes.

Haz

So I suppose that's just “music”.

It's all the point of view.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

OK, stereotype #2.

[Music: Mast Mast. Artists: Fanna-Fi-Allah]

That, my friend, is a tabla.

It is. Straight in there.

I mean, my geography is not as good as my musical knowledge, tabla is....

JJ

Indian.

Haz

Indian. That’s just what I was going to say, thank you for interrupting me. Indian.

I think you did know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're very sing-song as drums, aren't they?

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

You can do so much that feels vocal.

Yeah, I suppose… when I'm teaching theory, we supposed to say ‘definite pitch’ and ‘indefinite pitch’ and drums of… well, drums of indefinite pitch or anything that's not a kettle drum or a timpani, so you can't tune them. But these are very tuneful, I think.

They are. And very characterful, and immediately takes you to that world.

Haz

Yeah

JJ

So the interesting thing is that we've had at the pre-conservative that I run, this music school, we've had Indian classical musicians in over the years teaching us how to do the whole speaking of the rhythms.

That's cool.

JJ

What was it called?

Haz

Konnakol? Konnakol with a ‘k’.

Ok. Something like that, yes. Yeah. So you've got that “takita takatimi” and every, sort of, rhythmic unit has its own name.

Yeah. And it becomes an oral tradition. Then, rather than just writing down everything and… yeah.

I think we should grab some of that and put it into Western theory as well. I think, you know, we do at primary school age with ‘straw-ber-ry ba-na-na’. Whatever it is.

Oh yeah, go around the circle. It's like “J-J.. Haz” Yeah.

Yeah exactly. But I think that well, there probably is some musicianship training that would incorporate that in a, you know, more European way. But anyway that was the sound of the tabla, another, sort of, stereotypical sound. Do you, do you agree?

I agree so much.

Ok. So what about this?

[Music: El Condor Pasa. Artists: Imbaya]

I feel like I'm going to get a massage.

Yes, it's always that tune though, isn't it? I have no idea what tune it is, but those were Peruvian pan flutes.

Oh gosh of course they were. And they are… They do lull you, sort of, don't they? Either that or you're being… you're on hold.

JJ

Yes.

Haz

You're like “Your call is important to us. Please hold the line. Doo deh de doo de…”. You’re like “Ugh, again!”

JJ

Yes. It's a very anodyne sound. It's erm…

Oh that's rude of us. Is that rude of us?

JJ

Sorry?

Haz

Is that rude? Can we say that?

Well, no, I think it is in, in terms of that canned version because of course I think there's something a lot more earthy if you were to hear it play properly and authentically, but that's the popified, tinned version, isn't it?

Yeah. That's it. Like 34 relaxing sounds of the pan flute.

Stereotype #3 of world music. OK, so here comes the 4th and final stereotype.

[Music: ]

Yes, West African Ghanaian, in fact. Can you name the drums?

No. Can you?

JJ

Yes.

Haz

Oh, my gosh. Go on.

Djembes.

Haz

Oh! I knew it was a djembe!

JJ

You knew that!

The classroom drum of choice.

Yeah. Has it got… and then very different from the shekere of course.

Yes, of course. Well, tell us about that.

I don't know a thing. I just know it's another name of drum. Has it got beads on the side and goes “ch ch-k ch”?

I know that as the duff, which is an Iranian drum.

Oh crumbs, do you know there's so many. They're amazing. There's so many.

There are different families of drums, so there's the duff family. Then you have the darbuka or derbake family, which is a goblet shaped drum and used quite a lot in Turkey and North Africa and the Middle East. So yeah.

Do you know my favourite drum? Actually, if I was going to tell you my favourite drum is the dhol, I think it's D H O L.

JJ

Yes.

Haz

The Indian drum that you play with a stick and you wear around…

The double headed drum.

Haz

Yes.

JJ

Often, yeah.

Only because I've done quite a few, like, Southeast Asian weddings and things and different fusion weddings. And it's been absolutely amazing because I just play, they treat you like an absolute Princess. They are amazing. And then you lead a procession of, like, drums. They got flares and there is nothing to rile up a crowd like a couple of people playing dhols. They’re amazing.

Absolutely. And it is about the presentation of the music as well.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

You can't sort of extract it from that without really understanding the power of it.

Haz

Yeah. So I thought, you mentioned The Last Airbender tour that you've just been on.

Haz

Yes.

JJ

As the complete pro that you are.

I am a pro actually thank you.

And you were kind enough to bring a sample recording with you.

Aha. So I brought, as my piece of treasure for you, little nugget of treasure. A piece from Avatar The Last Airbender called Into a Nighttime Sky. And this is played on a kalimba. Do you know what the kalimba is colloquially known as?

You have to understand listeners that Haz has currently got her left hand on her left hip and is looking at me.

Yeah. I'm like, “Do you know this, JJ?” Because if you don't, we're done.

In school-teacherly fashion, I feel now about nine years old.

Well, you should because you know everything and I know nothing. But I know this. So what is the kalimba also known as?

I think the thumb piano right.

Yeah, very nicely done.

Well you would very kindly helping me along with those gestures so thank you.

It’s really difficult. I didn't know that you can get them tuned in different keys and this particular one is in D.

JJ

Ok.

If any sharp-eared listeners are hearing us.

JJ

It matters.

Haz

It does and having to mic up a kalimba to a whole arena was the job of percussion tech. It's very difficult to, like, mic all of these up specifically and not get bleeding from the other instruments and stuff like that, so… And also you have to have the right sized fingers. You can't… if your fingers are too big, you can't play with the thumb, you have to play with tiny little index fingers like a praying mantis.

It doesn't look quite like a praying mantis now you mime it.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

So should we take a listen?

Yeah, this is Jeremy Zuckerman's score Into a Nighttime Sky.

[Music. Jeremy Zuckerman: Into a Nighttime Sky from Avatar, The Last Airbender.]

Yeah, I mean, it makes for a good underscore.

Yeah, I mean, I know I've chosen one that's not like “Wham, bam, thank you Maam”. It's quite…

There's no whamming or bamming in that.

No, but I will tell you that it was very, very stressful for us on a nightly basis because we didn't know if the kalimba would be miked, so if it wasn't we’d be stuffed.

I can imagine the stress of that. It's a very gentle sound, isn't it?

Yeah. ‘Gentle’ is a nice way to put it.

Beautiful. Well can I offer you this in return?

For this is our treasure swap of this episode. This is a song full of whamming and bamming. It is a Turkish banger called Elindedir Bağlama.

And I came to know about it through the group with which I work, called Dovetail. This orchestra, I hope we can speak about this after this episode, but this… OK, the challenge to you is to tell me afterwards what the time signature is.

Oh Lord. OK, here we go.

It's always active listening with me, always active. Here we go. Elindedir Bağlama is a traditional Turkish song, performed here by Seyyah and her band.

[Music: Trad. Elindedir Bağlama. Artist: Seyyah]

JJ

What do you reckon?

Haz

Right, now, I've tried all the different odd numbers and you're, like, “Almost, almost!” Like is it, 3, 7, 11. What is it?

OK. Why is it? How is it 9?

So here's the groove it goes [JJ imitates rhythm]

JJ & Haz
123456789, 123456789.

Haz
Ohhh! Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm.

JJ

Apparently this is a classic Turkish folk rhythm.

Ah. That's how I don't know it because I'm not a classic Turkish person! But yeah, you're right I should, because in my head I'm like, “Oh, but 9/8 goes 123456789, 123…”

The classic symmetrical division of 9/8.

Uhuh. But [imitates rhythm] Is that right.

Yeah, that's it.

And you can say I look so ungroovy because I'm just there. But like, I'm so…

You'd soon find the groove if you were to come to a Dovetail Orchestra rehearsal. On a Tuesday, then you…

They look so fun. Can I now interview you about Dovetail?

Please.

Haz

So you started this yourself. This is JJ’s brainchild.

JJ

That's true. And so that… it's almost three years ago and it's a music group that meets every Tuesday afternoon in Bristol and now every Thursday afternoon in Cardiff. Guess where.

Oh, is it the church?

It's in Eglwys Dewi Sant, which is why I think we can talk about it because...

Haz

Yeah

JJ

It's a project for bringing together and providing musical sanctuary for asylum-seeking and refugee musicians.

Amazing. And I've been a recipient of one of your texts or when you send out things being like, “Hey, we've got this person that's come over from this place. They were playing this instrument. Does anyone have any instruments like this that they can play?” and it just made my heart feel broken and so big at the same time because imagine fleeing your home and then the one thing that brings you joy as well, like playing an instrument, you haven't got that extra… because it's a limb. It's like an extension of your creativity.

That's absolutely true, and it's been so humbling to see the response from Facebook call outs, for instance, you know people are really keen to help, so all of our drums and guitars and keyboards have come from donations.

Amazing. And everyone has like an equally-weighted path. You all sit in a, sort of circle, is that right?

We rehearse in a circle.

But there are always lead singers in amongst that. I thought maybe I could just make it an instrumental-only group initially, but that's just not how people receive music and, you know, they will come in with their favourite songs. So typically, what will happen is that they'll send me a YouTube link and I have to figure out how to make it work for beginner guitarists and for the assortment of instruments and voices that we have in that mix.

And then we try and merge it with other sounds in the room so everybody's voice gets heard across the course of a session.

Yeah. And it must be amazing because you've got someone from, for example, Turkey sitting next to someone from Israel. They might have different musical upbringing. One can read music, one can't read music and one, you know… different aural tradition. So how do you make that work?

There are certain rhythms and scales that cross over a lot of traditions and so there is… I suppose there are a few shortcuts that I can use to try and build in some kind of musical bridge. So, for example the rhythm [imitates rhythm]. That's a maqsoum rhythm, as it's called. Well, that's its Arabic name, but that rhythm is borrowed across so many traditions and cultures together with [imitates rhythm].

So, if in doubt, we can set up a groove over those rhythms and that connects then, you know, North Africa through to Kazakhstan and beyond.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

So, and they're… equally there's a scale, an Arab scale, which is borrowed by so many or shared by so many different cultures. So, there's glue that you can use musically.

So amazing and I would just want to get involved because I think something that holds me back as a classically -trained Westerner is that I see a big group of people and I'm like, “Oh, I don't. I don't want to do the wrong thing. I don't want to join it and get it wrong.” So how do you overcome that fear of, like, improv or doing the wrong thing?

You start simple and so you start with rhythms. You start with body percussion. You put the rhythm that you're doing through clapping, then onto the instrument on a single note. Then on to two or three notes you build from the rhythm outwards or you give a very small cell of notes that people can improvise within, you know four or five notes and say just, you know, keep to that and do the rest with tone and with intent and don't try and, sort of, be more melodic than that. And then people will naturally want to exceed that because their ear will be telling them, you know where to go beyond that starting place.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

So it's.

And as your creativity sort of flourishes, you get more confident then by the end of the session, you're probably singing or doing things that you never thought that you would be able to do.

Generally, yeah. People are really surprised at how quickly something can come together and at their own creativity. I mean, last week we did a workshop in North Bristol which fused a Ukrainian, Turkish and Hong Kongese selection of tunes. So obviously I'm at the piano trying to make that work, so there is a bit of workshop-leading involved in facilitating that, but still everybody in the room was able to participate in that fusion, and that felt very special. I know Helen Woods, who's leading the Dovetail Cardiff in Eglwys Dewi Sant, is doing similar things as well. It's rather beautiful.

I love that. Without being, you know, overly philosophical. You've got these kids running around who are growing up listening to these different fusions and it makes me very proud of you that this is all come out of your brain.

I’m really pleased with the project and how it's growing. We started off with 10, I suppose, musicians and now we've got 42, 43 on a regular basis and Cardiff again has only just started this year and I'm looking forward to seeing how that one grows. But I thought I could share with you just the sounds of Dovetail.

I’d love that so much.

So this is a Bangladeshi singer called Suela, who has the voice of an angel. And we made a mini album with her singing, amongst others, and this is called jolekahata and it's often sung at Bangladeshi weddings.

[Music: Trad. Joler Ghate. Artists: Dovetail Orchestra]

That's so amazing, Jon. Honestly.

It's a really fresh-sounding voice, isn't it?

Yeah, it's just it sounds joyous and I love how you got the different cultures in there and different voices. You've got that Turkish coming in afterwards for the verse and then all underpinned by Alex Goodyear on drums. Just like celebrating all those different grooves and…

The legend that is Alex and his team. Actually, we had an Afghan drummer as well on tabla and someone from Kazakhstan. So yeah, it was a truly multinational cooperation, as Dovetail always is. And if you want to find out more about this charity and about the project and getting involved, then do visit dovetailorchestra.org.uk. So that's dovetailorchestra.org.uk. And we're currently based in Bristol and Cardiff.

Thank you. Thank you. It is a lovely project and I've learnt so much from it actually.

And you're not the only one. Here's my slick segue into other composers, music facilitators who have done this - notable mentions Karl Jenkins.

The Armed Man, the second movement.

How do you feel about that really?

We've got be patriotic, for Karl Jenkins is a wonderful Welsh composer.

I wouldn't sit through it, but I like playing it.

JJ

OK.

Haz

It's fun to play. You're surrounded by all the drums and the singers and it's great. Would I pay to go see it? Well, if someone gave me a free ticket, actually. And they bought me some sweets.

So that's a no to the paying for it one.

Well, would I sneak in for free? And if there’s an ice cream in the interval then, yes, maybe.

OK, quite a few conditions.

Well… is someone looking after my dog at home? I mean, have I got a nice new dress to wear? Maybe, I’ll consider it. However, that in the second, what’s it called, bit... Movement is the word.

Let's go with that.

Yeah. So, we have a call to prayer. So, they actually employ, which is brilliant, an imam or someone who is.

I suppose a muezzin.

Yeah. To sing the call to prayer in Arabic and it's the most beautiful part of the whole thing. The most beautiful part. And honestly, I feel like everyone on stage is really quiet and respectful. And usually when there's quiet on stage, everyone's thinking about like, “Oh, God, oh, my stomach's rumbled.” Or like, “If we get out by this time, we might be able to get that train” or whatever. But when this is going on truly, I think everyone is just mesmerised.

It holds you captive in that sense.

Yes, because these people are amazing what they do, they do it as a living for their job. They are professional and they sound beautiful. So yeah, that's a notable mention another person who has borrowed and celebrated different cultures from around the world is Hans Zimmer.

Oh yes, of course.

As we know from… you know.

So many of his scores, really.

Yeah, Gladiator. I mean, I just wipe my hand across a field of wheat, and then all I can hear in my head is “uuhhh uhhh”.

That image, unfortunately, though, has forever been besmirched with just the spectacle of Theresa May skipping through politics.

Ha ha ha! Blimmin’ Theresa May, she's ruining everything for us. Crumbs. Right, OK, so get that image out of your mind, then.

Yeah, no skipping.

No skipping. OK, in that case, think of Dune 2. Lisan al-Gaib when he's like, riding the worm, he's like [sings]. With the beautiful vocals of Loire Cotler.

She is very special, isn't she? We checked out her website and it was full of this, kind of, rhythmic scene that she's taken from the Carnatic tradition. And yeah, it's so impressive.

And you taught me a word because I was reading it out on her website. And you spell her name L O I R E, by the way, because I didn't know how to say it.

Like the French river.

Quite, but obviously you know my French isn’t as good as yours or anyone's, I think, in the world. So you said the word mismatic or mise....

JJ

Melismatic.

Haz

Melismatic. That’s it.

It that's when you stretch a single vowel sound out over lots of different notes as if it were butter.

Like “Aaaaaamen.”

Exactly. That was beautifully melismatic.

Book me for the second movement of Karl Jenkins’ Armed Man. I'm just as good.

So let's listen then to Loire doing melismatic singing in… was it Dune 2?

Haz

Dune 2

JJ

The score to Dune 2. Here we go.

[Music: Hans Zimmer: Furiosa from Dune 2. Artists: Loire.]

JJ

Very atmospheric.

Haz

Yeah, very cool.

JJ

What I find slightly amusing is watching Hans Zimmer, who is a portly gentleman, rock out on his e-guitar with these other very glamorous musicians that he's booked.

Yeah, you've got... Yeah. I mean, everyone's around him who’s like, experts at what they do and she's like, beautiful voice. Got people to play the… they hone their craft for years. They got him like “mwawawaw”, like with a “wah-wah” and you're like, “Great job Hans.” Really great. We'll see you at the gig.

It's more just the look. Anyway, I applaud it. He's in on the whole scene and so should be.

Obviously, having fun. And yes, I mean this brings up the wider question of misappropriation of people's home identities and how that's expressed, often in sacred terms, through their music. But I think, I would imagine he's very alive to those issues.

And we've come to accept a certain amount of borrowing, certainly in Hollywood.

Borrowing and celebrating and then booking live musicians to play it as well. Very important.

Yes, that's right. And that's what brings the authenticity, isn't.

Yeah. The roots. [Inaudible] back into our opener.

Well, let's go right back to where we began with the word ‘roots’, and we're both Welsh to differing degrees. I mean, you're more Welsh than I am I seem to remember.

I mean, I was in Wales this morning, so yes.

Well, there we go. So as we play this particular episode out, why not end with a root sound from Wales? And this is one of the most famous folk songs there is really- Dacw Nghariad. I think “i Lawr yn y Berllan” or something like that. “There's love down in the orchard.” Wink, wink.

I don't know what kind of love is going on down in the Orchard but…

Love for picking apples? I don't know. Maybe I'm just too naive.

It sounds a bit forlorn. It might be just apple-picking.

Haz

Oh. Yeah.

JJ

You know, in a nice summer's evening, I don't know.

Why translate it when we can make up our own story in our heads?

What is interesting is that this is typical of the Welsh tradition in that it's quite a mournful, minor sound and so many Welsh folk songs have that - that beautiful, plaintive minor.

I love that. I was speaking to someone the other day and they were like “I'd love, like, a Welsh lullaby. And they said I just really want something to haunt me to sleep.” And I was like “That. Is. It. Haunt me to sleep. Yes.”

I love that. We hope you've enjoyed this very brief tour of different roots, music or musics.

We’ve dipped our toe in little bits of each country.

We've just dipped our toe into the ocean that is roots music, but anyway, better to have your toe dipped than not.

That's what you always say. You are famous for saying that.

I'm moving swiftly on, and with this we say a fond farewell, hwyl fawr.

Mm hmm. Hwyl fawr to you.

This is Da Nghariad

[Music: Trad. Dacw Nghariad. Artists: 4 Yn Y Bar.]