Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 20 (Braving The Viola)

After getting some stereotypes out of the way - viola jokes, composers who played viola, best viola shreds - Haz and JJ explore the wonders of the instrument, from how it got its name, via lesser known orchestral moments, through to solo works that put it on the map. Along the way: Lionel Tertis' big-hipped viola, and the connection between violists and basketball players. The perfect end to the season!

Listen to the Braving the Stave playlist here

Grandewch ar y rhestr chwarae Braving the Stave yma

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 Arts Active Podcast

Transcript – Upbeats: Season 4, Episode 20 (Braving The Viola) 

[Music: Brahms: Sonata in E Flat]
 JJ

I mean, why have a fanfare when you could have a viola just serenading you in?

Haz

I think this in my daily life.

JJ

We all need a few viola serenades just to start off the day.

Haz

And maybe just to cap them off as well, just bookend them with a bit viola.

JJ

How beautiful. That was Rachel Roberts serenading us with some of Brahms; his E Flat Sonata. 

Haz
 Beautiful. 
 JJ
 Have you played that one?

Haz

No. I really avoid the Brahms because it looks hard, but I know people who have.

JJ

I can imagine you soaring through that Brahms.

Haz

It's nice. It's a beautiful composition. I've heard it lots of times and it's lovely to listen to, but no, I've not played it.

JJ

So, Haz, everybody, is a viola player if you haven't already gathered that. 
 Haz
 For my sins.
 JJ
 You also play violin.
 Haz
 For money.
 JJ
 So, your, sort of, spirit instrument like the spirit animal. 
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 You'd say is the viola right?

Haz

Listen, I love an underdog. I will always back the underdog and there is no bigger underdog than the viola.

JJ

What do you call a violist with a solo career? 
 Haz
 I don't know. 
 JJ
 A miracle.

Haz

Ha ha ha ha! OK.

JJ

Have you got any? Should we get them out of the way? 
 Haz
 Yeah. Yeah, go on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is the difference between a coffin and a viola?
 JJ
 It's getting morbid quickly, isn't it? I have no idea.

Haz

The dead person is inside the coffin. Stupid.

JJ

Well, on that kind of front, how do you get two violists to play in tune?

Haz

I don't know.

JJ

Shoot one of them.

Haz

Ha ha ha ha! Which leads in nicely to mine, which is, what do you do with a dead viola player?

JJ

There's a lot of death already isn’t there.

Haz

Yeah, I know. Move them up a desk. 
 Both
 [Laughter]

JJ

Oh, they are good though.

Haz

They are great. I mean, and the biggest viola joke of all is me, so, that's fine. 

JJ

Ohh don't say that, I'm not having that Haz. I've heard you play and it's a brilliant, warm, soaring… I'm wasn’t going to use that word again. 

Haz

I mean, please, go on. 
 JJ
 It's a soaring viola tone, that’s what it is.

Haz
 Do you know what I think is with violas? We all play into the stereotype. We all love the jokes, but actually we get loads of work. Like, everyone needs a viola player because we're that middle part. There's… we're in string quartets, we're in musicals, we're in operas, we're in orchestra parts, we're everywhere. You might not like it, but we are everywhere.

JJ

If you don't have a good inside, you can't have a good outside.

Haz

Amen.

JJ

So that's what I say.

Haz

Amen. Yeah, absolutely.

JJ

And so many composers were drawn to the inside of the texture.

Haz

Inside of the texture?! I love that. Yeah, they were.

JJ

You know, the motor, the absolute, sort of, harmonic core. 
 Haz
 Yeah. 
 JJ
 And I thought we could have a little quick-fire competition.

Haz

OK.

JJ

Where we just fire off the composers that we know have played the viola and have enjoyed it.

Haz

Right, OK, OK. 
 JJ
 Bach.
 Haz
 And enjoyed it! Bach definitely did. I’m going to say Brahms.
 JJ
 Beethoven.
 Haz
 Dvořák.
 JJ
 Did Brahms? Did Brahms play the viola?
 Haz
 No. Look, I said… I said that!

JJ

You’re making it up, you can't say that!

Haz

I counter that with, erm…  did I already say Dvořák? Hindemith.

JJ

Yes. Er, Strauss. 

Haz

Schubert. 
 JJ
 Vaughan Williams.
 
 Haz
 Well done. Um… I've written a tune. 

JJ

Mendelssohn.

Haz

Well done, you win. You win. 
 JJ
 Just keeping… Rebecca Clark. We played her before.
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 Frank Bridge.
 
 Oh yeah, [inaudible].
 JJ
 Elgar, Britten, Shostakovich.

Haz

Yes! 
 JJ
 I didn't know that Shostakovich played viola. I can't imagine him playing viola. He's such a pianoey type of a person.

Haz

Honestly, he's got the most beautiful viola sonata, which I think is stun… and it's one of those ones that's written for viola rather than written for another instrument and then kindly transcribed for us. It’s written for viola and it starts off…. the first note is a C string.

JJ

Ah, that's beautiful. 

Haz

Yeah. 
 JJ
 The bottom string.
 Haz
 The only. The one and only. Yeah.

JJ

Can I just say, before we get into some viola music, how the viola got its name?
 Haz
 Please.
 JJ
 Well, actually, it comes from a consort of viols, like, spelt V I O L. And it was initially called the. viola da braccio. So, the ‘viola of the arm’,  to be held upright by the arm as opposed to the viola da gamba, which is the viola held between your legs.

Haz

Mm-hmm.

JJ

And there were two violas. Did you know this? There was an alto, which is now played and a tenor. But the tenor of yellow was so mahoosive to be held up like that, that they gave up on that idea.

Haz

Yeah. Well, actually, Jon, amazingly, I did know this. 
 JJ
 Oh!
 Haz
 This is really weird. I did my dissertation on the basically how the viola is such an underdog. I called it ‘Viola; the Cinderella of the String Family’ or something like that. Yeah.

JJ

Tell us more because we should be learning from your erudition and research.

Haz

Wow, wow, wow. So, basically, when you have an instrument that evolves from a viol and you have it da spalla or da gamba, you're saying ‘right, this one is quite big, but we're gonna hold it on our shoulder.’ But with that comes ‘OK now it's too big to play anything. So just play the middle parts.’ and then because we only have the ‘oom pah, oom pah, oom pah’ basically, composers were like ‘yeah don't write anything hard for that. It can’t play much.’ 

JJ

Because it's physically too hard.
 Haz
 It's too cumbersome.
 JJ
 And ‘da spalla’, that means on the shoulder. Yes.

Haz

On the shoulder, exactly. So then because people couldn't play it properly, music wasn't written well for it. And because music wasn't written well for it, not very virtuosic players played it. So, it's kind of like elderly sort of violinists, with chips on their shoulder. They're like, ‘look, I'm gonna retire. I'm gonna make some money on the side.’

JJ

That is the stereotype that…
 Haz
 Very much. 
 JJ
 It's lacking a little bit of lustre.

Haz

That's it. And it's one of those ‘if you don't see it, you can't be it.’ So they didn't compose music. So it didn't inspire the next players. So basically you had lots of middle-of-the field players playing instruments that were too big for them to get around virtuostically. So that's where we were until… composers… queue music here.

JJ

Go on then. Let's have a little insight into the world of viola music now.

Haz

Please, where do I begin? So I'm actually… this is so geeky. I'm really into this. I love it. 

JJ

I'm loving that you're leading this.
 Haz
 Yeah.

JJ

Because, listeners, I did invite Haz.... Haz is the local legend when it comes to all things viola so it would…
 Haz
 Wow.
 JJ
 It would be wrong, frankly, for me to lead on this.

Haz

Ha ha ha! I agree. Wholeheartedly. 

JJ

Hazzah.

Haz

No. So, we're going to start with things that you hear in the orchestra that you might not necessarily think were the violas, but we play an integral part, not just the oom pah pahs.
 JJ
 Great.
 Haz
 Not just those. So I thought we'd lead with something melodic. Ooooh! Ha ha. 
 JJ
 Very good.
 Haz
 So Beethoven's 5th.
 JJ
 Mm-hmm.
 Haz.

2nd movement, from the beginning. And this is actually used as an excerpt. So, when you go into orchestras and audition they might pull this one out and ask you to play it because it's Can you play it? Can you play it with direction? And can you play it with fluidity?

JJ

So this is Paavo Järvi. I want to say an Estonian, I might be wrong on that, conductor. Oh dear, I should have looked that one up. But anyway, Järvi is the son of Neeme Järvi. And I love the way he phrases this opening viola tune.
 [Music: Beethoven, Symphony No. 5, 2nd Movement]
 My goodness me, that was elegant, wasn't it?

Haz

Yeah, lovely.

JJ

And Paavo Järvi is, in fact, Estonian. 
 Haz
 Quick Google.
 JJ
 Had a quick check there. Phew. And that was the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie, which is… it's a beautiful recording, actually, of the entire.... I think he's done the whole cycle of Beethoven symphonies on YouTube. And I highly recommend that cycle.

Haz

I know you edited out the coughing at the start of that, but that is a live recording as well.

JJ

It's a live performance, yeah.

Haz

And I always think that lends itself even nicer to long, beautiful lines, cause you can they really go for it in the concert? And you can… yeah, you can feel that.
 JJ
 There's a frisson. 
 Haz
 Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed that a lot.

JJ

That is a beautiful viola tune.

Haz

Now, can I bring your attention to another orchestral tune on viola, but more of a ‘poo your pants’ moment?

JJ

Ohh please do. Apart from the last bit.

Haz

Ha ha ha!
 JJ
 Go on.
 Haz
 Well, yeah, exactly. So this one brings fear to all of those who bring… who play the viola. It's Shostakovich, Symphony No. 5.

JJ

Oh yes.

Haz

Movement 1.
 JJ
 Mm-hm.
 Haz
 Rehearsal marks 15 to 17. Ha ha ha!

JJ

Ha ha ha! You know it so well.
 Haz
 Well I…
 JJ
 Imprinted on your nightmare.

Haz

Well, it's just one of those that, actually everyone, I think, kind of, knows it off by heart anyway, but everyone has like ‘oh, what finger position are you doing for that one?’ or ‘Oh, interesting, starting that one on a downbow?’ But it's one of those that they like to test you with because it's so exposed. It's just the violas. And it's very awkward on the ear and under the hand until you're used to it.

JJ

Can't wait to listen.

Haz

Let's have a listen.
 [Music: Shostakovich, Symphony No. 5. 1st Movement]

JJ

Do you know that bit, I've just realised, I fell in love with harmonically and melodically a while ago, so much so that I had to go to the piano and just transcribe it.
 Haz
 Mm-hm
 JJ
 And in one of my manuscript notebooks there is that excerpt. It's so achingly beautiful and yearning and pained and everything you'd want from a viola sound, right?

Haz

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is, but I think as a viola player you are thinking ‘Right, OK, count down the pages ‘til the clarinet ends and then you come in. Then as soon as the piano comes in, you're like ‘phew, over.’ And it’s that… It's like you're thinking about it because you all have to…. Well, it's a [inaudible].

JJ

You’ve got to move as one.
 Haz
 Yes.
 JJ
 Quite a lot of large intervals to tune and get right as a section.

Haz

Yeah, yeah.

JJ

Beautiful. I really, really do like it. Do you know, it's just struck me that we ought really to say, why are we talking about the viola today? It's not just about you.

Haz

Why not? No. How dare you?

JJ

I mean, it should be but.

Haz

Yes.

JJ

You might remember that I mentioned the name Rachel Roberts, right at the beginning of this poddie because… and she serenaded us in with that Brahms. She is performing in Eglwys Dewi Sant - the Saint David's Church - in the centre of Cardiff on the 1st of July. That's an easy date to remember.

Haz

Yeah, that's a good one.

JJ

And it's part of the lunchtime series there, hosted by or curated by Arts Active, and we've been trailing those concerts as part of our series here on Braving the Stave. I hope to be speaking to her tomorrow afternoon and for that to be a bonus episode.

Haz

Amazing. Yeah, that would be great.

JJ

So we will be continuing this deep dive into all things, viola.

Haz

Please will you ask her what she thinks is the hardest excerpt to play? But I don't know…
  JJ

Orchestral excerpts?
 Haz

Yeah, orchestral, so I don't know if she will have played them, but which one strikes the most fear in her heart rather than which is the hardest? Because, I think the hardest, people are like… you practise Don Juan until you're blue in the face. And like...

JJ

It’s probably Mozart, isn't it? I think.
 Haz

Yeah, yeah.
 JJ
 Normally people say the exposure of Mozart in the classical style is enough to strike fear into any instrumentalist. 
 Haz
 Yeah. There’s no hiding with vib, no.
 JJ
 There's no hiding. Well, this is fun. So, we've had Shostakovich.
 Haz
 Uh-huh. 
 JJ
 And Beethoven so far. 

Haz

Mm-hmm.

JJ
 Any others? 
 Haz
 So how about something that uses the viola as the constant undercurrent going all the way through? 

JJ

Mmm.

Haz

This was the first… like, one of the first orchestral pieces I learned on viola, and it's by Smetana. Or do you say Smetana?
 JJ
 Smetana
 Haz
 Smetana. Beautiful. [Inaudible].

JJ

Not Italian! But I've been schooled on things like Janáček and Smetana and for Dvořák 

Haz

Ohh. Mmm.

JJ

by… Well, I used to present a little bit for the Czech Philharmonic.
 Haz
 Nice! 
 JJ
 And so they were very, very keen that I got it right. I’ve probably… listeners, I've probably got this wrong.

Haz

No. [inaudible]. 

JJ

Ironically, but you know what I mean. 
 Haz
 Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean, yeah.
 JJ
 I'm trying my best.

Haz

So OK, get ready for this pronunciation then. So Smetana. And it's Má Vlast

JJ

We'll go with that.

Haz

Great. And it's from the Vltava river. And we play the… It's basically, it's a beautiful story about the river flowing through… now, don't make me say the country. Prague. Is that a country?

JJ

Czechia
 Haz
 Czechia, yeah! I knew it! Anyway, and you're following things like hunters in the woods and you're following a wedding and… at the end the river goes into the sea and it's beautiful. You have these ‘ dwoo dwoo” and you play the waves of the sea. But the violas are the ones who carry this current, like ‘do doo do doo do doo’. You do it all the way through, so it has to be seamless and we pass it from one to the other of the other sections, but we are the undercurrent that goes all the way through.

JJ

Beautiful. 
 [Music: Smetana: Má Vlast. 2. Vltava (The Moldau)]
 JJ
 You are indeed there, burbling throughout.

Haz

An actual undercurrent, and I think it makes it more nervous listening to it, or it heightens the tension because otherwise it would just be a tune that's ‘Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo ‘, but we make it all ‘wwww’.

JJ

Yeah, absolutely. There is great rhythmic interest in it and, yes, that sense of momentum. It makes me think of the Beethoven, sort of, By the Brook as well. I wonder if Smetana was somehow influenced by Beethoven.

Haz

Yeah. Or honouring it. 

JJ

Everybody's influenced by Beethoven at some level. 
 Haz
 Yeah, I am, on a daily basis. 
 JJ
 Really? I am too! 
 Haz
 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
 JJ
 If only in the amount of coffee I drink.
 Haz
 Always.
 JJ
 Because he was a caffeine addict.

Haz

Was he?
 JJ
 Yes. 
 Haz
 Makes sense when you listen back to music and you're like, oh, you were heavily caffeinated. Yeah. 

JJ

OK, this is a guy who’s on 60 beans a day, measuring it out.
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 Or however many. By the way, I had to look up Czechia versus the Czech Republic. I'm pleased to say that both are listed in the UN database and are direct equivalents of each other.

Haz

JJ, I said the country of Prague. 
 JJ
 Ha ha ha!
 Haz
 So, please, never doubt yourself. 

JJ

It's OK.
 Haz
 I mean…
 JJ
 Well, let's move on. 

Haz

I mean moving on quickly from that…
 JJ
 Moving on from geopolitical issues.
 Haz
 Yeah, I was going to say from that stereotype of violas being a bit simple. Violists.

JJ

Is that the stereotype? I don't think so. I mean, first of all, can I just say, my best friends musically are violas.

Haz

Ah, thank you. Ohh.

JJ

It's true! As it happens, as it happens.

Haz

Well, I think if there was the music... If you didn't know about all these beautiful, intricate works that we've got written for us in the orchestral world, you'd think of the viola as… like, what would you think the viola plays?

JJ

As in… sorry.

Haz

Like, musically?

JJ

Well, you're right that the cliche is the oom pah pah, sort of, you know.

Haz

Oom pah pah. Yeah. So all the bases in the celli have, like, ‘oom’, and we play ‘pah pah oom pah’.

JJ

Should we just listen to a bit of that just to put that in the ear of the listener, here is the Blue Danube, of course.
 [Music: Strauss: "An der schönen blauen Donau", Op. 314 ("By the Beautiful Blue Danube")]

JJ

So I'm just recovering from having looked at a particularly funny YouTube viola shred video. Can you just explain this is the Berlin Philharmonic? I'm still laughing.

Haz

Yeah!

JJ 
 Where we have this parody of a master class going on. On, I believe, Strauss’… is it Heldenleben or Don…? 
 Haz
 Don Juan this one is.

JJ

Don Juan. A very famous viola solo. 
 Haz
 Yeah

JJ

Given by, surely their principal violist.

Haz

And it's so serious, the set up. He's like, sat there, like on the stage. And it's like, really slow opening softly lit and he's like ‘Hallo, and velcommen’ Do you know, and he's like ‘DCHA DCHA DHCA DCHA!’.

JJ

Absolutely massacring Strauss, but it's very cleverly done. We can point you there. We're not going to play it now for you.

Haz

No.

JJ

Because that would be mean.

Haz

I mean, it sounds like this.

JJ

Yeah, that's enough of that.

Haz

Ha ha ha! So good. But people are really earnest, like, “Wow, I didn't know. It sounded like that.” Like, “interesting.” 

JJ

It's very well done as shred videos go.
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 That whole genre. This is particularly good. 
 Haz
 Mm-hm.
 JJ
 The setup is very fine. So thank you for the Blue Danube, just as a typical… Well, you know it's generic waltz accompanimental material, isn't it?

Haz

It's the, oom pah pah. That's what we're known for playing: the off beats. ‘cause even the seconds who are playing the off beats get a bit of the tune later on, but no, we've got rests, and that's fine, that's fine.

JJ

So how come, though the viola’s become the butt of all jokes? Because that's not enough, surely just to make them…

Haz

Well, I think just ‘cause they're too…. I think they're… OK, so now we come into does size matter?

JJ

Right. Are we getting into some deep psychology here?

Haz

Deeeep psychology, because I mean, the bigger the instrument, the larger the resonating chamber. 

JJ

Mm-hmm.

Haz
 However, you have to have it small enough as well on your shoulder to be able to have the facility to be able to play all the fast notes.

JJ

Right.

Haz

So you've got a mixture between, someone’s like “Hey, why don't we take the violin, make it bigger like a cello, then put it on your shoulder?” and it's like, “Well, now I can't get around it.” Like, “Oh, don't worry, let's make some easy music for them so they can get around it.”

JJ

So, you're going back to that principle of, just because you don't get as much virtuoso material… but that's no longer the case, is it? Because I'm thinking, you know, since Mozart, erm, well, Bach as well, we've got composers such as Berlioz composing Harold in Italy, we've got Brahms with his viola sonata, Bartok, Hindemith, Strauss, as we've just heard, being massacred, and then the Walton, which we might be able to fit in inthis podcast. We're talking about the Walton viola Concerto of 1929 as revised 1960.

Haz

Yes, absolutely. I think it's just, basically, people don't have much trust in us. 
 JJ
 Aww.
 Haz
 Maybe, because people are often put on to viola if they're a bit, as I was described when I was younger, a bit limby, like, just a bit too many more limbs than sense.

JJ

Right. Is it the equivalent of basketball, do you think? Ohh you're a bit limby. Well, you can either be a rower.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

Or a basketball player or a violist.

Haz

That's it. And it's these budding violinists who are at the back of seconds, who are doing really well but they're like, “Oh, they're a bit tall for their age. Give them a viola because they can reach it.” So that's I mean.

JJ

We all need violas. It is a gold dust instrument in that sense. So, we've said before many times, I think, on this podcast how important it is to bring your child up on the viola because they’ll forever be employed.

Haz

Sometimes I don't even threaten you. And you say that, and that's a nice thing to say because they will be emplo… because everyone needs a viola player. 

JJ

Yep.

Haz

It's just like, I mean, I don't wanna compare it to a daily staple like bleach, but you need it in your house. You don't want to keep it around, but you need it right?

JJ

I would have gone more for cornflakes.

Haz

Of course, that's what I meant. Yeah. 
 JJ
 Great.
 Haz
 Less dangerous for children, but can I show you one last example of the viola really blossoming in a different field?

JJ

Oh yes. 
 Haz
 I just wanted to bring to you Dvořák, nicknamed American Quartet.

JJ
 Now that does blossom.

Haz

Because it's like the gateway drug between the oom pah pah and the Walton concerto. Because we get a little bit of solo, we start the whole quartet.

JJ

It's unusual, isn't it? 
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 And be reminded that Dvořák played the viola.

Haz

Yes, exactly. 
 JJ
 And he loved that sound. The richness of the sound. 
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 And the folkloric qualities of it.
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 In the context of this American quartet.

And you can tell he played the viola because he starts off – again, the first note is on the C string, our lowest string, so it just makes sense. It's like right for what you know and it's like “OK, we sound good down here. Let's just keep it down here. There's no need to be up in the. Skies. That's what the violins are for. They have an E string.”

JJ 
 It's comfortably low in the sense that you could just be, sort of, humming this ditty to yourself.
 Haz
 Yes.
 JJ
 It's got that relaxed, chilled quality, hasn’t it?

Haz

Yeah, and it is an earworm. So I thought we could play it because then we'll have it in our heads all day.

JJ

I can think of nothing better to have in my head than the opening to Dvořák’s American Quartet. Here we go. 
 [Music: Dvořák: String Quartet No. 12 in F major, Op. 96 (B. 179) (“American Quartet”)]
 JJ
 It's beautiful, but it is brief.

Haz

It's all we need. We don't want it... We just... We don't want to hog the whole show.

JJ

Just a little step into the spotlight.

Haz

Just a little “Woohoo. Look who's here.”

JJ

A moment in the limelight and that's enough.

Haz

That's all we need. And then people are like, “Have you seen the violas here?” “Yeah. Yeah. [inaudible].” That's all we need. That's all we need.

JJ

You must have played that many a time.

Haz

Yeah, but if you learn it once, I mean, work smarter, not harder.

JJ

It's there under the fingers.
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 I love that quartet. Thanks for bringing me back to that.

Haz

Not at all. Well, I thought it'd be a nice bridge, to “OK, now we're getting a little bit more virtuosic.”
 JJ
 Hmm. 
 Haz
 “Let's go full Walton.”

JJ

Full Walton. When he wrote the Viola Concerto, which is, I think, one of my favourite string concerti, I have to say.

Haz

Yeah, me too.

JJ

It's got a perfect mixture of lyricism - I'm thinking of that first movement tune - we'll hear a little bit of that actually under the fingers of Maxim Vengerov shortly.

Haz

Maxim Vengerov-Shortly. Sorry!

JJ

Ha ha ha! That would be a great surname.

Haz

Yes, double-barrelled.
 JJ
 Double-barrelled, Vengerov-Shortly.
 Haz
 From his mother's side.

JJ

You know, he plays the viola so well, he looks like a violist. If you know Maxim Vengerov, he's this big bodybuilding violinist mainly. But frankly, you look at him and he's pure viola.

Haz

Yeah. That's it. I think that's another thing on the viola is like “You're quite large and in charge. Get on the viola.”

JJ

Large and in charge!
 Haz
 Yeah!
 JJ
 That's a great way of summarising Vengerov’s qualities. Anyway, it has this mixture of lyricism. And then this beautiful scherzo in the middle, which is so full of Waltonian verve and bite and vitality.

Haz

Hmm. Yeah.
 JJ
 And quite an interesting finale.
 Haz
 I've not actually played... It's embarrassing, I've only played the first two movements, but I think you only need the first one for, like, auditions and things like that. So, you pretty much learn the first one and then listen to the others. Like, slightly less as it goes on.

JJ

Listen to the others. The finale is more subdued than you would imagine and has lots of question marks.
 Haz
 Mmm.
 JJ
 And it's all the more beautiful for it, I think. So, Walton wrote this initially in 1929 before his violin concerto, and he was commissioned to do it by Lionel Tertis, the famous viola player.

Haz

The daddy of the violas.

JJ

The... What's the… there's a expression? Is it the godfather? The G.O.A… em… what's it called?

Haz

G.O.A.T?
 JJ
 The… is it?
 Haz
 The GOAT. Are you talking about the Greatest Of All Time? Yeah, I think you are.

JJ

Yes, the GOAT. I'm sure there's another one. Anyway, he was the GOAT of the viola.

Haz

Yeah.

JJ

And then he didn't play it. Famously, because he said. Oh, this is too modern and he later came to rue those words.

Haz

He did. 
 JJ
 And he did champion it.
 Haz
 He also in betwixt times, worked on his own sort of model, Tertis model viola, which is famous for having a big bum. So, it has, in technical terms a slighter upper bout and a wider lower bout, which goes that larger resonating chamber. So you can actually project and play things more soloistically, towards the back of a hall.

JJ

Ohh so yeah, bigger is better in…

Haz

Bigger is better but only at the bottom because you need to get your arm around to… 

JJ

Right. 
 Haz
 Around the instrument, so it's based a bit more like a skinny top and a big fat bottom, and that's how you can tell a Lionel Tertis model viola.
 JJ
 A large hipped viola, I want to say.

Haz

Big booty. Yeah, absolutely. But you can still get around… but narrow shoulders.

JJ

I didn't know that. This is fascinating. So, he came… as you say, he came back to it later -this is the Viola Concerto - and did end up championing it and acknowledged he was wrong on his initial impression. It was down to Paul Hindemith, the composer and violist to premiere it instead.

Haz

Amazing. And Hindemith is one of the four... I mean, he's not quite the fifth. Well, he's the 5th horseman of the apocalypse with the violas. You’ve got Bartok, Walton - those are the two modern concertos - and then you've got Stamitz and Hoffmeister and those two are classical ones. So those are the four you, kind of, have under your belt, then Hindemith is always, sort of like, on the periphery of, like, “Yeah. Yeah. He's great. Yeah.”

JJ

I think also there has to be Britten, right? Benjamin Britten.

Haz

Britten. Yeah, yeah.

JJ

Who wrote… in fact, I believe that Rachel Roberts is performing a piece of Britten.

Haz

Nice! 
 JJ
 As well as Roxanna Panufnik.
 Haz
 Ooh.

JJ

Who is… I suppose I normally think of her as a choral composer and she is a beautiful composer, so lots to look forward to in Rachel Roberts’ programme. But let's return to the Walton, do you mind if I just play some of Vengerov giving it full lyricism?

Haz

Yeah. Full wack.
 [Music. Walton: Viola Concerto]

JJ

Oh my goodness me. That's music to butter your greens right there.

Haz

That is beautifully said, music to butter your greens. And I think that's why you have to be powerful to play, you know, a concerto like that, because it's middle of the range stuff. We're not low that we're kicking out a bass, we're not…

JJ

You're projecting, aren't you?
 Haz
 Exactly.
 JJ
 Right.
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 And yes, it does need investment physically into the instrument, doesn't it?

Haz

Mm-hm. I love listening to Lawrence Power play. 
 JJ
 Oh yes!
 Haz
 Yeah, I do. 
 JJ

Why?
 Haz
 I think he just stands there and plays.
 JJ

OK.

Haz

Which I enjoy. I've… that school of thought of like, stop, like, no pageantry. Just stand there, stand still. And also don't look like you're gonna knock out a concerto. Just stand there, you know, tune, great, let's go. And then plays amazingly.

JJ

Beautiful. I think Yuri Bashmet is in the same category.

Haz

100%.

JJ

Who else is inspiring to you in the contemporary viola scene?

Haz

Uh… I mean, I don't know if you've heard of Angharad Thomas. She's one of the little appreciated…

JJ

Does she go by the name of Haz?

Haz

She does sometimes, yeah, but only undercover. I actually saw Lawrence Power recently play with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra and he was premiering a work by Anders Hillborg. I don't know if you know any music by him.

JJ

Oh, no. Caught me out there.

Haz

No? Great. Oh, thank God. And it was a viola concerto, a modern one, and I was in a grump. I didn't want to go to the concert anyway, and I just sat there with arms folded, like “ugh”, like I was cross, arms even crosser.
 JJ
 Yeah.

Haz

You know, like didn't want to be there. 
 JJ

Yeah.
 Haz
 And honestly, it blew me away. It was absolutely amazing. And so I'm going to start listening to Anders Hillborg a bit more. I think.
 JJ
 Top tip. 
 Haz
 Yeah, I mean… yeah.

JJ

I think honourable mentions go to Tabea Zimmermann.

Haz

Yes, yes.

JJ

And Leonidas Kavakos, who is also known as a violinist and conductor, but he does a cracking version of the Walton as well on viola. Yeah.

Haz

Great. Yeah, nice.

JJ

So there we go. Top tips all along the line.

Haz

All round for the faddle, which is the big name for the fiddle, obviously.

JJ

That's good to know. The faddle is, we should say you know, the viola goes under quite a few names in terms of its European translations. My favourite is bratsche.

Haz

Yeah. Yeah, that is nice, yeah.

JJ

In the German. 
 Haz
 Yeah.
 JJ
 Have you got any other favourites?

Haz

I call it my faddle. I do.

JJ

That sounds a little rude.

Haz

It is, isn't it? But then I don't know, I can't think of anything…  Well, it depends if you say viola or viola. That's the thing as well.

JJ

OK. Which do you say?

Haz

Yeah, I say viola, as in Welsh.

JJ

And what is it in Welsh? Do we know?

Haz

Um… No. Look, I'm sorry, Jon. I didn’t do my homework.

JJ

Right, hang on. I'm just going to press pause.

Haz

OK.

JJ

OK, drum roll…

Haz

And it is…
 Both
 Viola. Ha ha ha!

JJ

But with an F. Of course.

Haz

So I did know I just didn't want to, you know,...
 JJ
 Didn't want to show off.
 Haz
 Absolutely. But yeah.

JJ

Well, listeners, I hope you've enjoyed this brief tour, but you know, it's been a packed tour.

Haz

It is, I realised I was speaking so quickly ‘cause I was so excited about this, like a nerd.
 JJ
 I enjoyed that zippy energy. Thanks for that.

Haz

No, thank you.

JJ

And that's really set up my day. I hope it has for you too. And what should we see ourselves out on?

Haz

Well, in the spirit of all things alto clef, I thought we'd finish with a completely bonkers composition and I hope I'm OK to say that, because it is bonkers. It's for… it's a piece for viola and cocktail shaker. 

JJ

Of course it is.

Haz

Of course it is. It was written during COVID, during the lockdown in 2020 by A Casarrubios.
 JJ
 Ooh.
 Haz
 Who does loads of works, and in fact, quartet works and different string solo works. And she is wonderful and knows viola players clearly very well because at the end of this four-minute piece, where a cocktail is actually being made alongside the viola piece, the directions are to toast each other, toast the audience, and then after the last chord, you down the cocktail.
 JJ
 Of course!
 Haz
 Of course you do! Of course.

JJ

Very in keeping with general, I'd say viola and orchestral viola traditions, in particular. 

Haz

Traditional etiquette. 
 JJ
 Etiquette! Protocol. 
 Haz
 By this stage, yeah. Yeah, of course!

JJ

So we'll see out with this and just a reminder that if you're listening in time and you're local to Caerdydd, to Cardiff, then get along to Eglwys Dewi Sant for July the first, it's lunchtime recital with the wonderful Rachel Roberts. But it's hwyl fawr from me.

Haz

And I'll say goodbye in the only way I know how: by saying goodbye, this is Day 30 for viola and cocktail shaker.
 [Music: Andrea Casarrubios: Day 30]