#23: How To Write Young Adult Fiction Absurdly Well - Michele Kwasniewski

Want to know what it feels like be a pop star at the height of fame? In her gripping trilogy, The Rise and Fall of Dani Truehart, Michele Kwasniewski delivers a heartfelt, unflinching look at the highs and lows of teenage stardom.

Join me as I sit down with Michele to explore everything from writing compelling YA fiction to navigating the growing influence - and risks - of AI in storytelling.

A must-listen for writers and readers everywhere.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Okay, welcome to another episode of What the Haze. I am your host, Hayes Wolferton, author of the Jack Strong series of books. I'm excited to welcome my special guest, Michelle Kwasniwski with me today, who's the author of the Danny True Heart series of books. So welcome, Michelle.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, Hayes. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Yeah, you're perfectly welcome. So can you tell me just a little bit about yourself as you know as a person, your background, and and then a little bit about, you know, what inspired you to write the Danny True Heart series?

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Sure,

From Entertainment To YA Novels

SPEAKER_04 0:38

sure. So I am a wife and a mother, and I live in a beautiful Southern California beach town. We're actually having a heat wave in the winter, which is always super fun. So, and I before I was a writer of my trilogy, my young adult trilogy series, I used to work in entertainment. I started out in on film sets and then I moved to television. I worked behind the scenes and still a member of the Producers Guilds, which I'm very proud of. And it was my time in the industry that inspired me to write this series.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Okay. Yeah. Sounds fantastic. So what is like, what is the the rise and fall of Danny Truehart about then? What is

The Danny Truehart Trilogy Premise

SPEAKER_00 1:13

uh what are the central characters that what's the main plot line?

SPEAKER_04 1:17

So the rise and fall of Danny Truehart is a trilogy in three standalone books. The first is Rising Star, the second is Burning Bright, and the third is Falling Star. And readers can start anywhere they want in Danny's career, dive right in. And you know, sometimes people like to skip to the end. Some people like to start in the middle. But it follows, it starts out in Rising Star, a 15-year-old girl, Danny Truehart, who was pushed by her stage mom, Jodi Truehart, into being a mega pop star, the likes of Taylor Swift, Ariana Grani, that sort of thing. And it's how it affects not only Danny, but it's how her affects her each individual member of her family, her boyfriend, her friends, and her development into adulthood.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah, that sounds really interesting, actually. I've I'm a big fan of like young adult literature as well. So I write it myself. So it's something I'll definitely check out. Oh yeah, it seems interesting. I like what you said about she's 15 and her mom pushes her into it. It was there a reason why you you made the mum like that at all?

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Well, I think when I started writing it, it was it took me, my first book took me seven years to write. So the second books were much quicker, but I had to really commit to being a writer in my first book. And so I was noodling around for five years just deciding do I want to write, do I not, can I do it? A lot of doubt. And then once I committed, I finished in about a year and a half. But when I so when I was first starting the book, there were a lot of young, not only pop stars, but celebrity Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, all sorts of shenanigans happening with young Hollywood. And you really, and as I was slightly older than all of them, and and seeing what they were doing and the choices they were making, I kind of had to wonder, you know, I know I would have never been allowed to make choices, even if I was in my early 20s, my family would have probably stepped in and like had a meeting with me. So it got me wondering how do young people get to that position where they make the decisions that they make in the public eye, where everyone's watching at them. They've got a team of people paid to keep them in the spotlight and on the positive side of the news and making money. So that's kind of where the idea came from is just seeing what everyone was doing and wondering where that starts. And so that's kind of what I delve into a little bit in my book, but I would like to clarify it is not based on anyone's celebrity. It's someone that I've completely created. I get a lot of questions sometimes: is it based on maybe Britney Spears or whatever? It's absolutely not. I admire her work and her career. And but it is kind of an amalgamation of what I've seen in the business as well as what I've seen like in the headlines and things.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Okay, it sounds interesting. It seems a great way to, you know, to use your experience in, you know, to write a book, for want of a better word, really. Okay.

Marketing Lessons From Three Launches

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I was going to ask as well, like obviously these books, they're quite popular, you know, online and in bookstores. How is your marketing been so effective?

SPEAKER_04 4:05

You know, I will say when I first started out in marketing Rising Star, I wish I could go back and redo it because I've learned so much over the course of three books. By my set my first book, I was trying to do whatever I could, but I was still new to social media. I still I was just kind of floundering with what to do. I tried to do, I did book tours, but I wasn't, and it was also during the pandemic. Okay. So that was really, really hard to write a book. Or it actually came out just before the it actually came out in 2020. So yeah, during the pandemic, so it was a little bit hard to market. Once things opened up, it got a little bit easier. I was able to get a book signing at Barnes and Noble and things, but it really was a lot of trial and error. With my second book, I was able to afford a publicist for for a shorter period of time to, and they taught me a little bit more. And I had someone helping me with my social media posts because being a mom and trying to write books as well as marketing, it's, you know, you're a parent, it'll do your head in trying to stay on top of all the trends. So that helped build my audience a little bit on social media. And then again, by the third book, I had learned so much. I just, every single book I do, I just keep rolling out with more ideas. And I follow people in my genre, outside of my genre. I'm always trying to learn what I can do to make the most of, because really a debut is like the big thing. My books are selling six years down the road still. But it's also really, really hard to keep that excitement going for a book that's six years old. But I've been able to do it, I think, because the topic, everyone loves fame and celebrities, everyone loves to see a celebrity fall, whatever that may be. So I do think that my books do have a special appeal for people of all ages, because I've had my oldest reader was 95, and my youngest reader was 11. So men and women read it, teenagers, boys and girls read it. So it's been well received. I'm really, really grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah, yeah, but you can't complain if you've got somebody really old and somebody really young reading. And this is something I always say, especially about you know children's writing or young adult writing. If it's really good, everyone will want to read it. And that that to me is like it, you know, sometimes the idea that like children's writing is not real writing or not not serious. I don't I I don't agree with that at all. Like if it's good.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

I just read, I reread a book that I had read when I was a kid, The Girl with Silver Eyes. It's written written for middle school kids, but I wanted to see if it was just as good as I'd remembered it to be. And it was. And um, and I do feel you're exactly right. If you're right, if your story is there and your writing's good, it doesn't matter who it's intended for. I think the success of the book is really how many other people outside your intended audience read it. And it's fun because I've had some of my friends and family's husbands come up and they are really into the series and they because they either have daughters or they like play, they play instruments or whatever the case may be, and they've been really interested in the book. And one of the husbands was in his like late 70s, and he's like, I couldn't put it down. And that really says to me, like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad that he was interested in the book, not only to pick it up, but to finish it and want to know more. So I love that. And that to me, as a writer, I don't think writers, especially indie writers, because we're not super huge yet, hopefully, but I think that to get that validation, especially from people who aren't our intended audience, really goes a long way. So that really kind of gives me a boost.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah, it's something I'm I I'm trying to like think about a lot more is like validation. Especially like in a perfect world, a box would be mega successful. We'd get great traditional publishing deals. But assuming that will happen, before that happens, you have I think you have to find validation for it. And you've got to you know, it could just be a review, it could be just something that someone says to you verbally and you have to learn to to hold that, I'd say, and and and value that and and maybe you can also learn from that as well. It's something I tell other writers out there as well that you can get a lot of disappointment, but you when you do get successes, you've got to see them for what they are.

Landing Barnes And Noble Signings

SPEAKER_00 8:17

I want to go back and ask you, you said about doing a book talk at Binds and Noble. Wow, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Yeah, how do you get that?

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

I was gonna say this is something I learned from book talk, and that's how I'm saying I'm always trying to learn. And I saw there was someone on book talk who said, Hey, do you know that they with this happened a couple of years ago, but that Barnes and Noble had gotten a new, I think, CEO, and they were interested in reaching independent authors. So not just from the big five or from uh you know aged and traditionally published author. So if you've got an ISBN and they can return the books, that's the key. If they order the books, they want to be able to return the books. So you just go as so I went into my local Barnes and Noble, I had a flyer, like I had my the the publicity sheet my agent had done, but I also had a flyer of just questions and things that they might need, including the ISBN number, a flyer, this and that. I met with the manager, they said they'd take it into consideration, and and by a couple hours later, I'd gotten a date. And I've done that with a couple different times at my local. And it's been great because they they put your books on a table. And the key is you have to bring friends and family in because your friends and family there are buying your book, but they're also drawing a crowd as people walk by what's going on and people want to go in the store. And I chose not to do a book reading because I wanted to be in the front of the store, and it went great. And they had posters for the week before of like my face, my books, and everything else, too. And it's great for your social medias. It's great that you could like you can do your own flyers or whatever. And it's really a boost. So and I think more indie readers and writers need to know about that because we get really intimidated by those mainstream chains, and they're really, you can't, it doesn't hurt to approach. I haven't had as much success with other chains, but with uh Barnes and Noble, they really are open up to having indie writers do signings or readings, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah, it's something I I've just become aware of recently as well, about the idea of like, you know, contacting bookshops and placing books in there, and obviously book talks is another great way of doing it. Yeah, it's something I'm I'm trying to encourage other writers out there, especially indie writers, you know, don't be put off. Just at the end of the day, I'm I'm I'm doing the same. I'm gonna I'm just re-editing the Jack Strong series and then I'm gonna just send an email to a few bookshops. I'm just gonna like do a bit of research because I want to try to find books that are let's say bookshops that are more focused on like young adult young readers because that's my target demographic, but it's a demographic I find hard at times to reach. So that's what I'm gonna try to do. And at the end of the day, for me, you can only say no. And you know, it it it there's nothing lost. But I think I think it'll be okay. I don't think that that will happen actually.

SPEAKER_04 11:06

So again, I would I agree with you. I think it's definitely worth a try. And I know that like you can talk to, I spoke to with a Girl Scout troop that was again during the pandemic. You can find a lot of the different organizations, like the Rotary Club, are always looking for speakers. So you can go in to your local rotary club and say, hey, I'm looking, does anyone want to learn how to write or do you, you know, ta hear a talk about becoming an author? You'll find a lot of places, some might even pay you a stipend. You'll find a lot of places are really open to learning either about how you became a published writer, the process of writing, or just particularly your book. And if you're open to speaking either in general terms or specifically your books, it really can open up a lot of different places. And I know my local bookstore, Beachtown Books shout out in San Clemente, California, they also carry my books too. And they do a really good job of trying to carry everyone local, you know. And being in China, I'm sure there are expat bookshops or something like that that you could definitely get in. And maybe there's a writer's group. I spoke with a writer's group, the Stoughton Writers Group, and they'd network to all the local bookstores in the surrounding area of Stoughton, Massachusetts to make sure that indie writers can get in and do book signings and their books are carried. And it's great when people team together as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Yeah, Michael's fantastic. Again, something yeah, expand bookstop bookshops in um China. There's not many, but it's that, you know, there's something I could check out. I think with COVID, COVID closed lots of places down, unfortunately. But it's something I definitely should check out as well. I was going to ask you as well.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

Like if you go to like if there's any kind of like again, like group of like, you know, people from England or different places that are looking, because sometimes people like a little bit of home when they're out in a different country. Maybe there's somewhere like a coffee house or something. And you know, you could do a meetup there too. I'm always like thinking, trying to make what how else can I get my book out there? It's never ended.

unknown 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

I totally agree with you. Totally agree with you. I was

Coming Of Age Under Spotlight

SPEAKER_00 13:04

going to ask you as well, like so again for you know your series, you know, Danny True Heart, what would you say are the main themes in your books?

SPEAKER_04 13:12

Well, coming the babe, obviously, because it's a very tight timeline. First book, she's 15, second book, she's 16. Burning writes the second book. And Fallen Star 17, she just turns Fallen Star, she's turned 17 in that book. So it's a very tight timeline. Finding your voice is another big theme because Danny, throughout much of her career, is managed and kind of pushed around and does what everyone wants her to do. She's not really taken seriously. I don't think her mental health issues are really, not that she has issues, but she develops issues dealing with stress, the constant pressure to perform, the constant criticism, you living in the public eye and growing up in the public eye. And then she's changing. Her boyfriend notices, her best friend notices, her family notices. So there's just a lot going on. And you write young adult books. Being a teenager is has got to be one of the most stressful things we go through as humans because you're trying to figure out who you are, find your independence from your family, find yourself in your, you know, your friend group. And then she doesn't have the benefit of going to high school. So all of those social lessons and life lessons she's completely missing out on in high school. She's got a toxic relationship with her mom, dysfunctional tones in her in her family, and then just the what the public expects from celebrities and how they feel entitled to know everything about a celebrity's private life when really that's not any of our business. So those are a lot of the themes that that thread throughout the book series.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yeah. Sounds especially coming of age. I think that's like a very good, you know, common, relatable theme for a lot of obviously a lot of teenagers. I like what you said there as well about you know becoming a teenager, or when you're a teenager, it is like the most stressful uh time of your life. It is, I mean, I I I I look back when I was a teenager and you're so uncomfortable in your body and you but you're aware when you're getting older. You're aware that like especially these days with like you know, college and maybe like first job are such a huge rite of passage that I think for a lot of young people, especially if they're reasonably privileged, they're not it it's hard to prepare them for, especially if they're at school, they're studying hard, that's not quite the same as working. See, it can be quite stressful, I think, for a lot of people, to be honest. So I think it's really great to kind of express that and like you know, illustrate that in in your books, to be honest. It's

Traditional Publishing Realities And Hustle

SPEAKER_00 15:47

uh very I'm very intrigued. I just want to go back a bit what you obviously were talking about, you know, publicizing books and you you've had a bit of success. How have you fared with you know trying to get your books in, you know, you know, traditionally published, something like that? How's that what's that experience been like?

SPEAKER_04 16:08

Well, you know, every author to me, I'm just gonna say right now, because there's a there can be a divide sometimes in traditional and non non-traditional, I mean indie authors. I feel that if you publish a book, you're an author and you deserve to be on the shelf along with everyone else. And sometimes people who are indie who self-publish feel that traditional people don't feel that way. And that's not my experience. That's not my case. Most traditional authors that I know feel that way because we know how hard it is to bring a book into existence from the glimmer of an idea to the final physical proof. And we, I just happened to have a team because I wasn't as confident with my grammar is atrocious. So I wasn't as confident as being able to format it and get the grammar all in line. So I thought, you know what, I'm gonna try first, see if I could land an agent. And then if not, I'm gonna go self-publishing. So it's not that I wasn't willing to do it. I just figured why not? And so I did, and I surprised myself being able to get one, which I love my amazing agent. And she found a great publisher, but it still is because we're not one of the big five published. You know, I'm still from a smaller publisher, and you know how many thousands of books are published a day. I'm distributed through Ingram, which is a great distribution. I'm sold all over the world, but it still is. I'm still find myself emailing bookstores, can you carry my book? Every time I go into town, I bring flyers. If I'm traveling to a new bookstore, hey, do you want to, you know, I'm constantly getting out there. And I do ask every time I meet someone, would you mind asking your library to carry my book? Because that, again, even though it's a one purchase, but if you get purchased and stuck in libraries all over the place, you know, people take notice, the other librarians take notice of what's moving in, you know, libraries in different cities. So maybe I can that way get into another library as well. So it's a constant struggle even now. I'm grateful that my books are selling still still six years later. But it is something that I was not prepared for before when I started my writing journey. I had no idea how much even aged and marketing falls on me, coming up with things falls on me, creating postcards, having printed all of that. It's still, and I don't want uh self-published authors to think that we're having it easier. We still have to pay for all the stuff that you have to pay. It just is because I have one client, that's me. My publisher has hundreds of books that he's publishing, and my agent has dozens of people she's representing. So really it still falls on me with their expertise. I still have to do that. And so that's why I just I give so much credit to self-published authors because that's something that I can't even wrap my head around doing. And I just think that it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I think it's self-published authors, we have to do so much. It's not just I listen, I know some traditionally published writers, I'm not knocking them. And I don't think they're necessarily typical, but there is that element of they plan the book, they write the book, they edit the book, they pass it on, and other people take care of stuff. And yeah, it works it works for them, you know, not not judging, just observing. But for most of us, especially if we want to do this for a long period of time, it can take uh quite a bit of time and we have to do so many things. We make mistakes, I think, at regular intervals. It it's that you maybe you don't make the same mistakes twice, but you still keep making them and and yeah, you have to be your own marketer publicist editor fan. You've got to be your biggest fan and you've got you're gonna be prepared to shout out. I also like what you said about when you go to a new town, you take some flyers and give it to the book. That's a really good, really good idea, that, to be honest. I think that's really cool.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

I always travel with a couple books in my suitcase. If I go to a hotel, I sign the book, and if they've got a bookshelf, I leave it there. And yes, it's costing me but costing me money. But you know what? I buy my books just like everyone else. I I wait till they're on sale. I buy them because everyone's books, I don't care how famous you are, your books are gonna go on sale at one point for four dollars on Amazon. It's just, it's just how it's gonna happen. So that's what I do. I I load up on my books when they're cheap and I have a stack that is just my promo stack. And I go and I I if if a review reviewer wants to do a post and review it, I will send them a book and send them some swag. And then that's just part of my, you know, marketing costs. I don't try to send free books out a lot, but I mean sometimes you just have to. And if I can be in a hotel in a different city and leave a book on a shelf, you know what? Some I've picked up books off the hotel bookshelf and I know some tourists is gonna read it, and maybe they'll leave a review too, or tell tell one of their friends about it. So that's you're always hopeful when you're marketing, right? You're just hoping that the right person's gonna see it and that's gonna start something. So you just never give up.

Awards As Credibility And Motivation

SPEAKER_00 20:50

I think that's that's the idea, isn't it? Never give up. What I'm gonna say as well is I think I I was checking out the other day, you you've also your books, the the Danny true art series. They've won a series of awards, you know, for best buck and that kind of thing. First of all, fantastic. But what how how does that feel? How do you go about entering these competitions?

SPEAKER_04 21:16

Well, it it feels fantastic because again, like we were talking about, that validation that we're looking for, because we don't, you know, we're not Stephen King yet or anything like that. We don't get that recognition on the daily basis. And if you're checking your weekly book sales, maybe you've got, you know, a couple of weeks where you don't have sales, it can really bring you down. I was talking to my agent about different things I can do. And and then I asked her, I'm like, well, what do you think about contests? And she was very frank. And she said, I actually think they really can help an author get a little bit more credibility with a reader. And if a reader sees a sticker or sees that you're an award winning author, they might be more likely to take a chance. Just the same, on the same level as if they see that you've got 30 or 50 reviews, as opposed to like two reviews on a book, like they're likely to give that book. Little bit more of a chance. So I when she just said, just make sure you vet your the contest to make sure they're legitimate as opposed to like being kind of like a scam where everyone gets an award. So I I've gone through and I I and a lot of it is I learn when other people are winning. So what contests are are the authors that I follow? What are they entering? What are they winning? And I go and I check, you can check and see if it's a scam, you can check and see how legitimate it is. There are different websites that will rate the contests. So, and I'll do that and then I'll apply. And I do feel that when I win an award, I feel like it just gives me that much more just like a little bit of breathing room. Because I don't know about you or other authors, but for me, self-doubt is constant. I'm constantly wondering, like, well, yeah, I've written those three books, but maybe this next book is the one where it really is like the true me and those were just flukes. It's crazy how, but as creative as we are, that can work against us because I'm always convincing myself that I can't write. So it just is, you know, so it helps me a little bit with the, well, I'm okay. It doesn't, I don't feel like it makes me a better writer. I don't think people who've never entered a contest aren't good writers. Just for me, it gives me a little bit of visual validation when I'm having a day where I'm like really like doubting myself. It helps.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yeah, it sounds great. I mean, it's another thing that I need to check out as well. So it just validates what I was already thinking, to be honest. What I

Influences From Stephen King Onwards

SPEAKER_00 23:20

was gonna ask as well is what books or even movies or TV shows have had a big impact on yourself as a writer?

SPEAKER_04 23:28

Gosh, there's so many that I can like barely think of, but a lot of I've mentioned him a couple times already, Stephen King books. He I just love the way that he writes. He's very visual. The word choices that he uses, the certain brand names or products that he picks, he can build a whole world in just a couple paragraphs. And I love that. And I feel because I don't outline, so I tend to overwrite. So always my goal is to write as succinctly and and visually as him. I love, I'm gonna pronounce the name around Kazu Ishiguro, like never let me go, is one of my favorite books. So good because it's got that little almost dystopian or sci-fi element to it, but couched in a very realistic book. And again, that writing is very different. Are you okay?

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yeah, I have got a little cold, so it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:20

I'm sorry. Yeah, he built a story exactly opposite Stephen King because it's very sparse with the words and all and the way that he is his descriptions, everything is very minimal, but that still lends a tone to the book. One of my favorite books is Anna Karenina. I love In a Dark, Dark Wood by Ruth Ware. I love a lot of like thrillers and gothic kind of novels, The Silent Companions by Laura Purcell, and then Love in the Time of Cholera by Galgario García Marquez. I love all of those different books, lots of different writers, but they all build worlds so differently. And I know I don't, I'm not a sci-fi writer, but I do feel that even if you're writing in a contemporary fiction, you're still world-building. And I love, I loved, I feel like I'm learning a lot every time I read one of these authors.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah, what's your I mean, I love Stephen King as well. What what what's your favorite Stephen King book?

SPEAKER_04 25:14

I gotta say, The Shining scared the bejesus out of me. Like just reading it, I was scared, and I kept having to put it down because it was so scary. I think that's my most favorite book. I know the movie's completely different, but that is one of my favorite, favorite books. And we actually just read it for my book club last year, and it was just it was familiar, but it's still, I was learning, I was seeing different things that I hadn't noticed before, and I've read it like three or four times, and it's just one of those books that and I feel all of his books, I can still keep going back and getting new things out of them.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah, I reread The Shining a few years ago, and it was just like, yeah, this is wow. It is ridiculous. Like, especially at that time, Stephen King, every book that was coming out, it was different, but it was also fantastically different. So Yeah. Yeah. My favorite, I think of his, it's still probably sailing to what was his second book.

SPEAKER_04 26:09

I just read that, I read that one last year too. I had a bit of a Steve Stephen King summer. So I was reading a lot of books, and I read that one too. And that one is really good. I hadn't read that one since I was a teenager.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

And I forgot. I just like I read that in a couple of days because it just it just sweeps you along. And you just want to get to that. So one more chapter, one more chapter. And that's what to me, incredible writing is when I just I don't want to go to sleep. I'd rather be tired in the morning than put down my book and go to bed.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Yeah, I mean, it does it it got me into reading. Uh I I you know, I'd finished school when I was 18, and uh, you know, you when you study English in the UK, I don't know about America, but you you study like, you know, culturally important texts, which I get, but those aren't necessarily the best books to help teenagers read, because teenagers need to read something that they can identify with be maybe even escape to. And that's not necessarily the case with culturally important text. So I picked up Salem's Law, uh, read it in a few days. It's like, wow, this book's been written for me, to be honest. And then I reread it effectively what, 30 years later, and you you never know sometimes. Sometimes you might get a bit disappointed. It doesn't quite stir you the same way, but it was even better. I'll be honest. I was like, yeah, you know what, this is and I was picking up different things, like language a lot more, for example. Yeah, I I've got on my on my Kindle, I've got Carrie, which I've never read, and I've got It. The good one, which I've never read.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

What was the other one?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

It's It's in Carrie.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Oh I actually couldn't read it. I have a fear of clowns, and I started reading it, and I woke up in the middle of the night and I saw a reflection of light on my aquarium. This is when I was like 17. It scared the bejesus out of me. I was convinced that that Pennywise was in my room and I never get it. I have not been able to read that book. I haven't been able to see the movie because it just just it's I got like I think 10 chapters in and it just that's when I'm terrified of that book. So I still haven't been able to read it because it was so scary to me.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Yeah, I mean to be the only thing that the only reason I've not read it before was it's a really long book. It's it's pretty thick. I think it's over 700 pages. And I typically, especially these days, my my life's really busy. So I can typically read, I read every day, I'll try to read every day, but sometimes I can't read for more than an hour, might even be like 15 to 20 minutes. So if I'm reading a really long book, I feel like I'm not making progress. And uh it's I I do like to have books that keep ticking over, so I tend to I tend to write short books and I tend to like want to read short books as well, if that if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

It's all really good.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah, a friend of mine read it and said, No, it it looks long, but it's that good that you just fly through it. That's what I've heard. So and I just I just need to find time and just you know yeah, prioritize it out, is what I'd say.

SPEAKER_04 29:20

Yeah, I mean eventually too, like you know, when the kids go to college or when the high school when they're busier, then you'll have more time to do it. So it's not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah, no, no, it's true. I've got it, I'll pay for it.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

I will get to it. I've also got his giant history of the Second World War, it's like a thousand pages, and I'm like, no, wait, I'm not ready yet, wait, you know. Yeah, Tip was gonna say as well. Yeah, moving like Stephen King. I think the way I Stephen King's actually affected me a lot as a writer, especially the way he he he other than the Dark Tower series, he he typically does standalone books. And I it's uh I've written a Jack Strong series, but other other than that, I typically kind of to a certain extent follow his kind of template, so to speak. I try something different every time, send it off to agents, and it typically doesn't get accepted, but you know, whatever. But yeah, that that's had a big influence maybe on my my philosophy of writing, if that makes sense. And I write young adult books that are you know typically genre based, so sci-fi, dystopia, bit of fantasy, bit of you know, melding together. So yeah, Stephen King. I I think he's been like the standout author, really.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

What 50 years, something like that?

SPEAKER_04 30:42

I would agree to he he appeals to so many people from so many different walks of life. Yeah, and so many people have different favorites of theirs, and his short stories are brilliant too. So I love his short stories just as much as I love his longer works, and I like I just I just really enjoy the way he writes. And I am a series person. I do like reading a series, but like, but I also love just a standalone one-off book, too. Those are a lot of fun, just too. He's he's just a great I feel like I'm giving myself my brain like an ice cream Sunday when I read a Stephen King book because it's just so enjoyable.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah, I I sometimes think about Stephen King. I in it might be bizarre when I say this, but I still don't think he's got the credit he deserves. Like every everybody lots of people say he's really good. People like me and you, we really like him, we read his books, but when it comes to things like Nobel Prize for Literature, Booker Prizes, he's nowhere near. But it's like, yeah, but this is like this is the guy who's gonna last. And he you know, we we're not uh you know, if he you know, unfortunately if he passed away tomorrow, he's not gonna be forgotten in 20 years. He is gonna last and keep going. Like, like it and so it seems strange to me that like the you know the especially the big book prices, they tend to stay away from that. And I I again I don't think they realise just how instrumental he's been with so many writers out there. So many writers have really not just enjoyed his writing, but it's really impacted them. And I think really it helped, you know, other writers and how they write. I'm not sure you could write The Hunger Games, for example, without Stephen King being there for for example. Yeah. So uh mean you want to do another question. What

Practical Advice For New Writers

SPEAKER_00 32:34

if there's any like writers out there that are just because I've seen a lot of new writers on on social media, they've written a book, usually they've published, you know, their first independent book. What tip or what tips would you give to them?

SPEAKER_04 32:49

Okay, so if a a writer who is just being published, and really if you're in the process of writing a book or you think you want to write a book, I think the advice is all the same. A couple of it depends on where you're at. But if you're just starting to write a book, just write. Don't get caught up on everyone else's posts, just write. And if you have your book out and you're trying to get published, again, focus on yourself. You can get ideas from other people, but I think it's so easy to fall down that comparison hole that social media just is built for. Comparing to everyone else. Well, they've got six awards, I've only got two, or I don't have any awards. And I can't I think that for anyone, whether you're indie or traditional, whether you're starting out or you've got 20 books in, I can't spend a lot of time on social media. I go for the ideas, I go for the interaction. I love you'll always see stories and repostings on my account for other authors, because I believe that there is room for all of us in the spotlight. None of us tell the story the same way. Okay. So we could each write have, you know, that we're gonna write a ghost story that takes place in a barn with a kid who died in a car accident. There are gonna be 50 different versions of that story. And what and each version is gonna appeal to a different reader. So I think that the key is if you're just starting out and you're publishing your first book and you're starting to market it, just take ideas, make connections with other authors. It's a really, really supportive community. I've never knocked on wood. I've never had any kind of negativity or trolling or bad posts in this community. I've done nothing but expanded my knowledge and my online friends. But it really is you need to focus and you need to decide what's successful for you, not what's successful because someone else did it. Because I think that's what gets in your head. My success goalposts move all the time, but that's because I keep accomplishing more and more. And I think sometimes it's really easy to get in your head, well, I like right now, I'm waiting on a book to get published. I'm looking for a publisher with my agent. Well, it's really easy for people to think that I haven't done anything since my last book came out. I've actually written two books and I'm working on a script. I'm doing a lot. I just tend not to talk about it because I don't like to put a lot of stuff out there unless I can back it up, right?

unknown 35:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

And I don't like to date my work or anything like that. So I just like to, until I get my publishing deal, I'm I'm not gonna really talk about it. So I have to not let people thinking that I haven't done anything for the past few years get in my head because that's not my goal is to get published, my goal is to market my books and that's it. So that would be the biggest thing. Just just protect yourself and don't let other people's accomplishments make you feel bad about what you're doing because hey, you've written a book. You're publishing it, you're marketing it like that. Is I think people forget that publishing a book is such a monumental feat. And it doesn't matter how it gets published. You've published a book. It doesn't matter if you're only on Wattpad or on what I not only, but you're only on Kindle, you don't have a print book. I don't care what you have. You've published a book in whatever manner, shape, or form. It's something to be proud of, and it's something that no one else can take away from you, and no one should certainly disparage or put you down for. So I think that's the thing. It's just really protect yourself with how much you let social media get into your head, but use it as a tool to market yourself.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Yeah, I mean, social media, I feel like with writing, it can be double-edged swords. Like first of all, we need to do it. Like, you know, me and you were on Instagram, you know, we make videos or we we we put posts up. But obviously, as you scroll down and you you you look at the best thing is you can look at what other writers are doing. And I I learned from, oh, they've done it like that. I could do it. It might just be a simple thing with a title, it's just little things. But then it I mentioned a double-edged sword because you know you can look at, oh, how many how many people have liked their video and it can be way more than yours? Like, like way more. Yeah, I think that's how and it it it I I can see how I think there was one piece of advice I'd give for social media is that try to be true to yourself. I I think I do see some writers rightly or wrongly, I'm not judging, I'm just observing. Maybe Instagram with the videos, it it kind of promotes like how does the wanna how do I want to phrase this like kind of in a nice way? It it promotes like kind of that kind of a certain theatrical quality, shall we say. And so I see writers that they start doing things that may be okay. It's getting a lot of views, but as a reader, sometimes I wanna who are you as a writer? What do you think? What do you what do you think about any of this? And sometimes that that's the kind of thing I tend to gravitate towards. And that's that's that's one advice I'd give to over overriders. Just it's okay every now and again. I've done a theatrical video as well. But not all, I wouldn't do it all the time. That's just my personal opinion. I as well.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

I think that that's totally legitimate, and I would agree with that. I don't like I know I speak in videos, but I don't like to. I usually have to shoot things like 10 or 15 times because I get tongue-tied. I just I'm not someone who likes to be in front of the camera. I would, if I could write and not do any social media, that would be like my heaven, just to write books, sell books, and then not have to market. But it's it is unfortunately even to get my agent. She's like, I had to be on all these kinds of social media platforms and build up a following. It's just a necessary part of the business, which not everyone I certainly didn't realize it when I started trying to get an agent. But I agree, it shouldn't be everything. You should be true to yourself. And really, don't reveal more than you want to reveal, you know?

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Yeah, as for tips, I think I think your your number one tip spot on. You've got a you've got an idea, write it, get it, get it done as quickly as possible. But at the same time, I want to say quickly, I mean I'm in the first draft, but I I typically there's one mistake I made is with my first book, my first Jack's run book, I wrote it, I then edited it, and then I sent it off to agents. And because it was my first book, you it's just more likely than any succeeding books that there's gonna be when I say owers, I don't mean like typeholes. I mean like maybe ours with a manuscript, maybe it's too long, maybe it's too short, maybe there's some sections that don't really work. And what I should have done is, and I do uh do recommend this to other authors, maybe just take a bit more time, maybe just leave it on the shelf for a year, keep writing, and then go back. You'll see issues because you're getting better very quickly. It's a steep learning curve, and then you edited it and then approach agents and publishers. And don't get me wrong, you you still might get rejected, unfortunately. It's more likely, far more likely you'll get rejected by agents than than they'll accept you or that's just the nature of the game, unfortunately. But that's advice I give. What's right?

SPEAKER_04 40:00

On that, I will also piggyback with I have a group of trusted beta readers, friends and family. And so when I finish something, I get I give them, I don't give them the draft, first draft, I give them like the second or third draft, which is less messy and makes more sense. But I throw it out to them and I'm like, I want to know everything because I know that they're not gonna come back at me with something wild or super critical. They're gonna be honest with me because I don't want anyone blowing smoke and making me feel better about something that's not good. I want to know what works, what doesn't work. And a lot of times they'll point out, like, you had this character and then they didn't they didn't go anywhere, or this storyline didn't close, or this closed too soon, or I didn't see. And so that to me, along what you're saying, is my biggest help. And it's it's really, really hard to trust someone else with your work. So that's why I wouldn't just send it to randos on the internet that you don't know, because one, they could steal your stuff. But two, you want to know that the people who are giving you this constructive criticism and advice are coming from a good place and they're readers, so they know what they like. One of my beta readers is an avid reader, not an English major, not but but the advice is always solid. We might not agree, and because at the end of the day, you as the writer have to decide what's important or not. And I know I had one character that my one friend did not like, wanted me to pull out, and I was like, trust me, it's gonna make be make sense in like book three. And it did, and I had the vision, and it just because he didn't know where I was going with it, he didn't get it. But his advice was helpful, but in the end, I decided to keep the character in. And so when you're looking for an agent, you definitely want I agree because you're having all these different agents, they've all got a plan that they're looking for. They want something specific. So if you can get as many people that you trust to read it and then take those notes and take what works for you and leave what doesn't, I would agree that that would be another thing before you start querying is to make sure you get a couple more eyes on it, not just your own. Because sometimes we think it's so being so clear and it makes so much sense in our head, but then like out in the wild, there's like, no, that doesn't, you need more clarification or you over-explained it, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, it's something I'm I'm still processing. It's like I've had feedback from 10 years ago, and I'm I'm I'm as I'm as I'm re-editing my text strong series and just small changes. I still have that in my mind, in my ear, in a good way. And I'm like, oh yeah, I I don't think I need an extra adjective, for example. I I can just get rid of that. I think that I think the reader understands, I don't have to completely spell it out all the time. Things like that. But I was going to say to people out there, I think you've kind of touched on this as well. It's okay to uh reject criticism. And I think sometimes that can be that can be a hard uh call. Just because you have beta readers, you know, doesn't mean you have to accept everything blindly. So for my my first book, Jack Stronger, I yeah, it was I I I tend to have to a lot of people. And and some people are very enthusiastic, give me some really good tips. But then not not when I say others, I don't mean it's in a bad way. They've just got their opinions. And their opinions are based upon their experience. It's you know, it's not blind either. But you're like, no, that's not what I want to do, that's not what the book's about. And yeah, you still have to be kind of brave and bold and go, no, I'm not I'm not gonna start it in the spaceship. That's not what we're gonna do. It's not the maze runner. I I and I understand where they're coming from, but for example, as that was Warner, my my novel Jack Strong, just to give people a bit of context, it starts when just after Jack Strong's been bullied, and it shows you his home life briefly, and his arguments for his parents and his family, and then he gets beaten up by the school bully. One of the like pieces of criticism. him was to oh get rid of that you can start when he goes on to the spaceship in chapter three and I'm not saying they're completely wrong because it it it is something I always do think about even to this day but I was like you know no I think it's important uh to the character to show to ground him like this before he goes to the spaceship to understand that's what he's running away from you know that's what is haunting him yes you can do it in flashbacks and I think that's important as the author you knew where you needed to go with it because it's your story and everyone's always going to have different opinions on your story.

SPEAKER_04 44:40

And at the end of the day you get to decide how your story's told. And I think that's very important. It's very good advice for authors because some people get carried away with well there's say this so I've got got to pull this out now but at the end of the day you're right it is your story as the author. So you get to decide exactly what goes in and what goes out.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah. So I

Querying Agents And Building A Team

SPEAKER_00 44:59

was going to ask you as well how did you go about getting an agent then is that is that a recent thing is that has has that been like longstanding?

SPEAKER_04 45:06

No longstanding. So since my first book so I queried an embarrassing amount of agents I had sent out letters I did a bunch of research like we all do. I got books from the library this that I read all kinds of query letters online and I came up with query letters set out my first seven and like nothing. So then I set it down again and I waited and I I did more research. I sent my query letter to a bunch again my beta readers what do you think what do you think and got more rejections a couple interests and then so it was basically like that off and on off and on but I will say I lucked out because it I think from start to finish I was like nine months before I found my agent and I will say that it was from my wonderful friend Jack Owens who I'd met on Big Brother he was one of our contestants and we'd kept in contact and he had an agent and I didn't reach out for his agent but I said I reached out and I'm like hey Jack I'm like I because I'd read his book and everything and he had another one coming out and I said you know do you have any advice because I'm trying to yada yada yada and I sent him I don't remember if I said in my whole book or a couple chapters and I just asked for any kind of advice because I was having trouble landing an agent. And he offered you know I don't know if she's interested but let me just see so he he asked his agent if she'd be interested and she said yeah she would take a look at my letter and then she I I said on my book and then she was like yeah she picked me up. So I was gobsmacked that I'd gotten picked up because I still was one of those it's just like finishing a book. I never thought I would really finish the book never thought I'd really get an agent. So it was that kind of thing. And she was great and I think I was her first young adult author. And it's been great. I love how honest she is and she will tell me exactly what I need to hear and that's what I love. I don't want someone sugarcoating it or trying to I want to know what I need to do in order to get to where I want to go. And she's been fantastic with that. So that's one of the reasons why I'm such a big proponent in having an agent because I feel like I've got an advocate on my side and same thing with my publisher. I have my publisher Rand Smith is fantastic and I have never felt like I had to give up something that was inherently important to the book. And initially I think there was a doubt about the title the rise and fall of Danny Truehart for the trilogy title that there was a question there because it was too close to the rise and fall of another title. And I was upset that at the possibility of changing it my agents I just explain to them why you love this title and why this title is to stay and I wrote a heartfelt email and they agreed. So I know not every author has that experience with their publisher but I could not say enough amazing things about Rand Smith because they've just really championed Danny and they really had my back and I love the covers. I love everything because I told them my vision for my covers and they did a fantastic job with all the covers. So it's it's just like finding like an agent or an editor that you work with when it clicks you just feel like you're part of that team and I feel very very lucky to have had that experience with my first series Yeah you mentioned the covers there.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

So how did you go about getting the covers designed? Was that done like professionally by which I mean the the publishing company or someone connected to them or did you hire somebody they have an artist at Ransford that they that they work with.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

And so they'd asked if I had any ideas and I'd said since we had the trilogies and I had already had the titles because originally it was supposed to be rising fall of Danny Truehart one book. Well then it was going to be like war and peace length because I didn't realize how much I had to say so I had to break it into three books and come up with the different titles. So I already knew kind of what I wanted to be on the covers. And they came up with these fantastic covers which were just right in my head and I'm not an artist so it's not even like I could draw them a picture. So they did a great job and I feel like it really captures the spirit of each book Yeah I was going to say that they definitely do definitely do.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Absolutely

AI Theft And Why It Matters

SPEAKER_00 49:05

I was going to say maybe just to close so obviously there's a big talk at the moment about AI, AI and writing AI and publishing as well. What is your take on that? How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_04 49:16

Well I'm going to try not to swear because as someone who's had their second book stolen by Meta and fed into their llama program to train that up, I am absolutely anti-AI. I'm anti-AI for editing, for any kind of publishing, for artwork. I know I know writers who use it for their covers. I know writers who use it to um come up with writing prompts or edit their book. I have to be honest with you and I I'm not mean to offend anyone but until you've had your work stolen and I wrote that book after my mother and my one of my best friends died in the pandemic while I'm homeschooling and that book like meant so much more to me for everything else I'd been to and to have it be stolen without my permission to train a computer program to do what I do. It's just unconscionable. And I hope that someone throws the book at all these AI companies that are stealing artists' work, their their artwork, their writing, poetry, music, everything voices for the actors, their images it just is unacceptable that humans are being robbed or their humanity in order for it to for people to have cheap entertainment, cheap you know, computer programs or the like and if you can't be bothered to write your book on your own then why are you why are you writing? You shouldn't be getting prompts from an AI program. You should be doing it and an artist, an editor, those people cost money I understand that. But you know what? It's also a human doing a job and you're gonna be guaranteed that no one is going to have the exact cover that you have because it's done by a human. And when now agents and publishers are looking to see if AI's been in your work at all because AI uses a formula. So everything's gonna end up sounding the same if you're editing it through AI as well. So I really just I have no patience for it. I I've done a bunch of posts about it. So you can see it on my Instagram about reporting them to the FBI, the CIA. I've done everything I can do to prosecute and stand up for myself. And if you've had something stolen by one of the the big companies using it to train their their programs, I would encourage you to speak up. No, I it's it's not helped yet but if you don't say anything then you're part of the problem too.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

So sorry but I'm very passionate anti-AI in um writing on the arts yeah how did how did you know the book was stolen did do they tell you or does your publisher tell you or anything like that?

SPEAKER_04 51:44

So the Atlantic newspaper has a so that was one of the big articles that kicked this whole thing off and they have created this fantastic database that you don't need to have a subscription to the paper to use just to Google the Atlantic I'm totally blanking on the name of the library. And uh I think it's the Anthropic library where you where they they're stealing all of these books. And so I have been watching this for like I think a year and a half and it was all the big names and then it got the names got smaller and smaller and then one day my name appeared and it was only my second book Burning Bright but I can't believe it. And so I signed up for the anthropic settlement but because I'm not in the first whatever it is 2000 books or 1000 books they're stolen I'm in like the next wave. I'm not going to see any settlement money probably ever, even though I should what I would really like rather than money is for them to take my program, my book out of their program. They shouldn't have any part of my voice, my characters, my story, anything because that's what they want. They want to sound like humans. So that's why they're stealing lesser authors and artists because they they don't care if you're famous or not.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

They care if you're a human and you've written a book they want yeah yeah I agree I I certainly think with with writing books I think that you're best off just writing it yourself and and making a ton of mistakes. Making a ton of mistakes but as long as you've got the commitment to fix those mistakes that's how you improve I I think if you don't if you take the shortcut you'll never get better. I think like I I read an argument the other day and you know fair dudes that's that's their argument it's it's like they've got this idea in their head this world this story and they need AI to write it down and I and and what it reminded me of is that when when I was doing my MA in in creative writing for poetry it's that discussion because it's pre-AI but the discussion came up it was about rhyming and I've often thought about this this this this line and it's like the reason why you shouldn't like rhyme is and I I do disagree with it but the reason why you shouldn't rhyme is it changes like your idea in your head because you've got to search for words that rhyme and my my point has always been I think I was it it was my reply at the time was every time you put your pen to paper or your fingers to the keyboard things change. It's the nature of art it's like your idea in your head it's like looking at looking at a vision on like say uh a like a lake surface or something. That's the idea in your head it's kind of clear it's kind of not at the same time but when you ride it it becomes never mind clear it's immersive but it will change and that's the beauty but that's the beauty of it it it it it gets better and that that's my argument about help using AI to write is that like you you don't improve as a rider but this is it's the nature of it it's it's it's what we do. And you need to do it I think to be a writer to be honest. I think with with editing I think it's I think one of the problems of editing is that I have I've never sent my this is the double edged sword I've never sent any of my work to an AI editor but I'm aware that AI is becoming less of a choice and more of a what's the word I'm looking for like a like a something like an experience. It's in everything. So I was like when I use my Microsoft Word because I I I type on Microsoft Word, is there AI in that I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 55:23

But yeah but there will be turn off the co-pilot which so I I don't ever it's constantly asking me should I correct or should I not and I don't answer because it what it wants to know is is a human is that okay is that not okay and half the time it corrects it wrong because it corrects it so it's I have everything I'm I'm like a like a doomsday almost every time I get something I'm shutting off all of the AI every time Google updates it reset so I have to shut everything off again. But it just is I agree with you it steals your voice and the whole part is it's soul. What we all do to everything is we're giving a part of ourselves and our experiences so someone else can read it and we get that human connection, right? Because that's really what like the arts is like music and humanity we're just we're discussing being a human the ugliness, the goodness, the funness, everything about it. And when you take it away and you let a computer program that someone has cobbled together, what you're getting is not human experience and contact you're getting that one or two or 20 people who wrote the program, their thoughts and ideas. And when and people don't realize that they're like oh well they're blending all of this artistic work and they're putting it into this worldwide program. No. It's computer programmers a very small amount and then you get into the whole sci-fi stuff of like what are they training us to think of and not think of and it's just it's another way of controlling ourselves as humans not to get too conspiracy theory ish. I just think we shouldn't give up the right to speak our minds. And you know what humans are messy. We use the commas wrong we use the wrong verb tense and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

It just you have to try you can't be so scared or so lazy that you give up trying to Yeah I I think as well like it's like what people have got to be careful of it's like it's something I've noticed if you go say the BBC you go to CNN to the website you copy and paste one of their news articles and copy and paste it onto your Word document just look at all the stuff that comes up like no this is wrong. You should look at this you should look at that and the point is is that like we've got to be careful that we don't get homogenized. I've no I I I've I've looked at some of the recommendations I well some of it's they're wrong you know but it it's something I'm kind of just wary of which I think writers have to be wary of like it often would say if you're writing to be able to for example it will always say should be two but I I if you look at the wording it doesn't say it should be two doesn't say it's wrong. It says I think maybe maybe this is better. And it's something as I'm using my program just Microsoft I've just got to be a bit more aware of the program and maybe what it's trying to direct me to. Because I've just I've just I've always used Microsoft for years and years and years.

SPEAKER_04 58:15

I write on I write on Word too and I like it because it's just very basic and a lot of bells and whistles to get involved with but I will say I've turned off all the co-pilot settings. I do have it for because I again with my commas and spelling I'm okay if you want to mess like tell me I'm using a comma wrong I will deal with it with that. But it it tries to ask me these questions about the way I'm using words. It wants me to use must instead of need to or whatever and it wants me to and I'm like no because I don't I'm not here to teach you because you you can't shut off them learning from you and sending it back to their big computer. So it is just so important to just keep trying we're messy get an editor have someone help you who's good with grammar but just I really just worry about people just you know becoming lazy and and using AI. And again it sounds like I'm being really judgmental. I kind of am and I don't mean to but when you've had your book stolen it changes everything. And I think everyone who's so excited about AI, when they've had something they've worked really hard for not writing AI stolen it changes your world. And I will never be over meta stealing my work to enrich themselves when they already have so much money. I mean it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

But that's a fair point as well is about the the money aspect like if you if you put a video on YouTube, I forget what it is, after so many views, you get back like six dollars six pounds, whatever I even I don't think it's enough for YouTube. But I I I I I find myself thinking about this it was a while ago even never we're talking about books now but it could just be social media posts like you think about like like X it's like you have to pay to go on it. Shouldn't they be paying us like if you you know put on a post and it's really successful why don't they give us money? Because that you know there's there's an advertisement usually pegged around it for example. So they're making money and same goes with with with books. It's like okay you're using books to train shouldn't you be paying like like if you if you have a book in a library certainly in the UK every time it's checked out the the riders get it's a small amount they get a small amount back. And maybe that'd be a better way I don't know I'm I'm always trying to find like some you know halfway houses and just some some compromises but I feel that the big tech is just too powerful. Like it has a lot of power.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:47

It does but what I wonder about because I know that I have people who you know they have they work in offices and the people on their different various teams in the office are using AI to write reports and this and that and they're they're all excited about it and the bosses are talking patting the person on the back for saving time. Oh good job using AI. And first of all I'm like one, what happens if you get sued because AI is wrong a lot two, then what's the point of you? Because then the manager can just type what he needs to an AI and people are just talking themselves out of a job and the importance of their position in society. And that's the thing that's really wild is that we do need to have people to be responsible that they're mistake that they can say, I made that mistake, I wrote that report instead of being like, well AI wrote it, sorry. And I just feel like it it takes away accountability by handing more and more over to these programs that supposedly know everything because they certainly don't know everything Yeah yeah totally agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Do you think

The Future Of Reading In An AI Age

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

like in the future books will be written by AI or at least I mean I'm sure they're being written now but I mean do you think like successful books influential books will be written by AI?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:56

There there was that one woman that was just I forget her name but at New York Times did a huge article on her she'd written like 200 books in a year. She writes using solely AI. She writes I think romance novels and and she actually got a lot more flack than I thought she would because I thought people would be promoting that. But the the reading and writing community both were really outspoken against that because it kind of again it destroys the purpose of why we we read to have human connection to relate you know and when you're reading a book and then you buy the next book and it's got very similar scenes in it and the only thing that's different is like the word or maybe the location it ends up stealing what it is. I do think that people will be using AI. I don't think everyone's always gonna say I'm using AI I think they're gonna try and pass it off as their own work. I think we're gonna find a lot more people being outed by trying to pass AI off as their own work. I think that's gonna come for us. I do have faith that readers love to read. I mean books, physical books, I'm a physical book reader, not a Kindle reader physical books are still selling when it's much cheaper to read an ebook or an audio book, right? So I do have faith that people, I mean people still go to museums, they still have to go to the cinema, not as much, but they still do. I do think that people aren't willing to give up those human written stories. And like I'm a member of both the Society of Authors and the authors guild and we they both have human authored badges. I have them for one I need to get them for the Society of authors but I think that's so important to not only tout that you know it's human written because nowadays we need to specify and differentiate from AI written. And it's sad that we're here but if you're a fan of sci-fi this was always coming for us. So we don't have the flying cars yet but we do have the robot delivery people and now AI trying to take over human jobs included writing books. So I I don't think it's gonna happen as soon as we think but I think that it'll be more people trying to pass off AI as their own work.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

And I think that's yeah I I'm with with this as as I'm listening to you and it's I've had these debates probably quite a lot of the last year or two I listen I I agree with this. I think there's the it it's coming into the industry more. I I don't think it's I think we do need probably some kind of regulation actually I do think some kind of regulation needs to happen. And I don't necessarily mean a complete ban. I do think that if as I've been saying I think if writers if if if their work is being used to train AI I think they should be paid just like the like a library at the very least. Do I think that an AI will be able to write say a book as influential as Agatha Christie, Dickens, Shakespeare? No I don't and the reason why is you know an AI there's no thoughts and fear fears, there's no subconscious I write a lot for my subconscious because my consciously like politically consciously I can be how should I say it more traditional subconsciously I I realize I'm I'm more left wing. You know I tend to write more about social issues. How can an AI that duality how can an AI copy that or in uh and copy it effectively I'm not convinced. I think like human beings we have fears at all times a lot of the time beneath the surface I'm not and that feeds into the writing I I would I'd have to see it. Do I think that AI will be able to write the next Jack Reacher book? Yeah. Yeah I think that if it can happen now if within the next four or five years. But at the same time for me that it's saying something about the publishing industry that maybe it has become a bit homogenized and listen I I I've read a few Jack Reacher books I I quite like them, but they're not they're not amazing for me. And I like Lee Child as a writer, some of his language is good. But like that homogenization is crept in where, you know, Jet Reacher, the new Jet Reacher book is in this new small town. AI could just come up with these concepts, I think, and probably do a passable job. But I I do agree with you. I I think that for me, when I read a book, I want to know there's a human out there that wrote it. And not just a human, a human with thoughts, fears, experiences. And we talked about Stephen King earlier, and you're like, yeah, that's part of his books. It's him, it's his persona. Obviously, we know a lot about his problems, you know, from quite a few years ago. But that's part of the mythos, isn't it? It's part of oh, he was a real person. When he was writing this, and as I read one of his books now, I'm like, oh, what was he doing when he was writing this book? And you can't think that of an AI. Think about Hemingway going to Spain to, you know, write reports on the Spanish Civil War. AI can't do that. I'm sure they could. If you asked AI to write a war report on, say, the war in Ukraine, yeah, but it could do a passable job. But it won't be Hemingway. You know, it's I I think it's interesting. I don't think it's going away. And I I always try to rethink my positions almost on almost on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:35

I think you have to because you can't that, because if not, then you're just like trapped in a wreck. And that's when you stop learning, and that's when you start yelling at kids, get off your lawn, and you know, you start shaking your fist at people. I think that we're always learning and growing. And I think that that's the way it could be. And yeah, there are certain things that AI might be great for, but again, I've just been burned by it having my stuff stolen. So I do think that I I'm a big at pushing back against it. I think there's certain things AI can do fine, but again, I always look at the flip side of that. Is it stealing a human's job? And like, and there's something, there's an interesting website, have I been trained? You go to this website and you type in your name or you type I type typed in my book covers. My image has been stolen. My and so it's being trained into AI. My book covers have been stolen, trained into AI. So you can write a you can sign up and you can say, Hey, I I want to stop. So the the website will then keep record, and then anytime someone tries to train or train their AI using your images, they'll send a cease and desist. But if it's already been used, there's nothing you could do. And I think that's the hard part is like it's that if corporations had to pay for every book before they used it, none of this would have happened. And they thought people were so excited to have all this like easy programming and so like and kind of not smart enough to know that it was going on, they just figure, you know what, we'll do it and apologize afterwards. And I do think I'm surprised that it is coming back to haunt them. And I do think they're gonna have to pay for it, but never nearly as much as if they had to reach out to each individual author to say that. Because one $1,500 payment is not enough for me. I would never be satisfied because I would I would have said no. I would have never agreed to have my book used.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:21

Yeah, I yeah, I wonder, as I'm listening again, I wonder I wonder if in the future there'll be some kind of class action lawsuit to get to get back some kind of money. I mean, that would be a pain to decide how much and to whom. You know, how do you decide? Oh, we use Stephen King's books a lot, use my books maybe a little bit. But I I I do I do tend to think that, yeah, maybe like one solution is the authors, and it's not just authors, it you know, obviously for like scientists, their papers are being used as well to train.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:56

And journalists, their their articles and everything. So it's not, you're right. It is not just authors, it's anyone who's created anything, any creators, whether it's educational, political, business, what have you, scientific, any creator whatsoever. But that's the thing is there's people just how do you know to pay attention? How do you know where to look who's stealing your stuff? And it's so overwhelming. And they do everything, you know, behind closed doors in the dark. So you don't know, you don't have a chance.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

Yeah. It's it's it's the new frontier, it's the brave new world. Right.

Final Thoughts And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 1:10:31

Michelle, I think we can end the podcast there. Absolutely fantastic conversation. As normal, I'll edit it at the next two or three days and should be up by Tuesday or Wednesday. But yeah, thank you. Being a fantastic guest, especially love the conversation about AI at the end.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:46

It's really great talking with you. I had a great time. Thank you so much. And I'll promote it all over the place, post on my website. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

Yeah, much appreciated. Really much appreciated. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:57

Thank you. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

Bye bye. Take care.