#26: How Writing Retreats Can Improve Your Craft - K.J. Holmes

Want to know how to improve your writing but not sure where to start? 

In this episode of 'What! The Heys', Fantasy and Romance author K.J. Holmes breaks down all the amazing ways you can improve your writing from attending writing retreats, hiring an editor, and entering various writing competitions. 

What's more, she also discusses her writing routine, the key texts that have influenced her work, and how A.I. continues to affect the publishing industry.

Perfect for writers and creators everywhere.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to another episode of What the Haze. I am your host, Hayes Wolfenden, author of the Jack Strong series of books. I'm here today with KJ Holmes, who is a fantasy paranormal romance and thriller writer. So welcome, Caitlin. Okay. So first of all, can you tell everybody a bit about yourself and then the work that you're you're writing right now?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Hello, yeah, I'm so excited to be here. Write fantasy. Obviously, I've always loved fantasy, but I also do a lot of short stories. And the short stories tend to be more of the romance and thriller variety. Um, I'm not entirely sure why, but so far that's kind of been the split. Novel I'm working on is fantasy. So I think in order to get a break from fantasy, I tend to dabble in romance and thriller just to keep all of my um skills or the craft a bit stronger and more flexible. But yeah, so I'm currently based in Scotland and I have been writing for not very long, actually. Not seriously, I should say. I think I started writing this book about a year ago. I think I started taking it serious, seriously. It's definitely been there in my brain for at least five years, just kind of rattling around. And I finally decided to actually try to get it out to the world so that other people could enjoy it as much as I enjoy it. But yeah. And I think as far as writing goes, I used to love it in high school. Like it was one of my favorite things to do. And then whether it was life or a certain high school teacher that most people tend to have, my self-confidence kind of just got shot and it was like, I can't be a writer. I don't I'm not qualified to be a writer. Like, I don't know, I don't know anything about writing. And so I just didn't think about it for a very long time. But it was always kind of there, and I've always read books and been an avid reader and just immersed myself in stories. And yeah, so I've just come back around to it to actually try to contribute to the things that I love so that hopefully one day someone will love my book as much as I have loved others' books. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah, I hope so. I hope I think everybody deserves that to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

That's definitely my goal, because I obviously like I used reading and books as a way of escape, escapism, which I think a lot of people use. And it's a way to just go somewhere new when you either camp, like especially during COVID and things like that, when you literally couldn't leave a house, you could just be transported somewhere else. So I'm hoping to bring my world into that, to give that to somebody so they can also get transported somewhere new and fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Yeah, I love your bit about yeah, being transported somewhere like new and fascinating. It's something I try to do a lot, and it's something as a reader, that's what I'm typically looking for. I mean, obviously you're talking about fantasy, magical worlds, but even now I'm reading a book and it's set in LA, and I still feel like I'm transported there, even though it's it's a contemporary memoir. And I love that. And if I can't do that, I'm I'm I'm not as interested. Um, Caitlin, you said as well about you're at school and you lost your confidence. I think I think it's kind of normal. I mean, I'm from the UK as well as you, and I I didn't lose my confidence as a writer, just uh I don't know. I feel like the UK education system sometimes for English certainly it's not very creative, and it's not about getting a bunch of young kids to enjoy reading, first of all, and secondly to you know write different things, it tends to be quite regimented and you know it's not cool writing stories. None of my teachers encourage me to write stories. My first story was called The Color Red, and this is when I was you know 11 years old, and it starts off with me like pretending to fire a machine gun. It was about the Falklands War. And the point I'm getting is the the school thought I was crazy just writing about war, but I was like an 11-year-old boy, you know, so maybe a bit like a 11-year-old war. I've just been watching Rambel.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

You know, so it's not I don't think it's unusual.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

No, no, I I think it happens to a lot of people. And if you don't have that ambition or belief in yourself at that time, it's so easy to just put it to the side and focus on other things, whether that's university or traveling or starting a family, things like that, that they can just kind of get in the way. I know. I definitely yeah, I definitely I kind of it took me a while to stop seeing writing as a hobby. Like I now take it more seriously, and I think that's when the switch kind of changed. Like it went from writing short stories for fun, and I do really enjoy writing this novel. Like I'm writing it for fun as well, but I'm also now have the goal of trying to share it with other people to get it published, which I think just kind of you have to have that shift in your brain to go from writing for fun to seriously writing so that other people can see it too.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yeah, that's the thing about yeah, sharing it with other people. You've got to be prepared to look foolish and feel foolish. I sometimes feel foolish sharing my work or telling people I'm a writer.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Oh, I know. It's the same thing. It's so serious. It's it's like taking a piece of your heart and just like showing it to someone and being like, please be nice to it. And half the people who are gonna read it aren't gonna like your book. And that's something that you have to also come to terms with because it's not gonna be for everybody. I've read plenty of books that weren't for me. They were great books, but I didn't enjoy them. And it's the same, the my favorite books, some of my friends, DNF'd. And I'm just like, what do you mean you're DNF? That's my favorite book in the whole world. So yeah, trying to keep yourself open when you've shared it with somebody else is really, really hard.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, I was saying last week on the last podcast, I said if you you've got to look at negative reviews as a positive thing. If you're getting some, you know, negative reviews, it shows that your buck is real. Like it's I mean, I I don't mean to say it's it it's it's fake or anything like that. I mean like real bucks have people reading it that don't like it. Sometimes those people are jerks. Most of the time, it's just it's just not for them. But it shows that it's it's real and then like the the the rating, for example, on Amazon is reliable as well. I was gonna ask you as well, Caitlin, about you mentioned about writing short stories. But how many have you written, or how long have you been writing these for?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

So so far I've probably written I wanna say it like seriously written, where I've actually written them for a purpose, is probably only about five or six. But writing short stories just for fun, quite a few more. I try to take part in different types of writing competitions. There's the NYC Midnight Competition. They run a couple different ones, but they have a short story competition in January, is usually when it starts. And that was the first one where I had actually started, like I submitted it to someone else and I wrote for a purpose. And luckily, I got through to the second round, which was nice. I didn't get through to the third round, but it was just a good experience, and you get feedback from the judges as well on like the pros and cons of your story. And so, yeah, so I've done a couple for various writing competitions, and I find that short stories help you practice things that you don't get to do really if you're doing a novel, at least not for a long time, like the ending. Like if you're writing a novel, it's gonna take a long time before you actually have to write the ending, unless you're one of those people who starts with the ending and then writes the rest of it. But when you have the short story, like you have to take it from the beginning to the end in a nice, concise way. And so you kind of get to practice those types of things and like word limits, word count limits also give you that extra challenge where you have to, you can't be too flowery, you can't just keep putting words onto the page, you have to be concise and like get your story across within those certain the certain word limits. So I've really enjoyed doing that because it it kind of helps strengthen my craft. And because it is a challenge, the ones that I've done before, they give you a different genre to try. So on the last challenge, I had to do a romantic comedy, and I found it extremely difficult. Like I've done romance ones and I really enjoy romance, but for some reason turning it into a rom-com made it really hard for me. And it I think because I had that word limit for that one, I was just like, I don't I don't know how to turn this into a rom-com. Like my romances are always like they they do have a hint of thriller in them. So it's always kind of that type of romance rather than a rom-com type of romance. So yeah, the short stories, they just they help broaden your your skills and your craft, as well as showing you things that like I I don't know if I'll write another rom-com because I found it so difficult. But maybe if I feel like trying to challenge myself again and without an actual word count limit, I might give it a go. But it definitely was surprising to find a genre that did take a lot of thought and yeah, difficulty to try to get out. Because I was just like, this the story's not coming. Like usually I get a prompt because they you get a prompt and you're like, oh yeah, I've got ideas, like it's going, I can do this. And I got that prompt and I was like, I have I have nothing. There is nothing going through my brain right now. Like, this is so weird. Because usually I at least have some idea of what I'm gonna do with it. But yeah, so I definitely recommend short stories and short story challenges to to everybody because it's yeah, good practice.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yeah, uh short stories. I've I mean, you said you've only written five or six, I still think that's a lot. Like some people, of course, have written probably hundreds. I've only written, I think, one one short story. Like my my entry into novel writing was from poetry. And when I was doing a master's degree in creative writing, my professor noticed that my poems are like narrative driven. So all my poems they tell a certain story. And so I just I was writing sonnets, and I and I I've always preferred to poems, short poems. So I maybe a bit like short stories, I got used to writing about something, saying what I mean in a very short time. So it got me used to the structure. And I remember before I started writing my first novel, I was telling myself it's just like a sonnet. You have your introduction, there's a bit in the middle, and then it's coming into the ending. I know obviously novels are a bit more complex than that, but it it was something in my mind at the time that allowed me to think, hey, you know, hey, you know, I can do this, you know. Yeah, and you definitely you have to try to and yeah, rom-com, I wouldn't know where to start.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Oh you have to try to frame it so that you can wrap your head around it and keep it going.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Next, maybe you can just explain or just discuss like the about the book you're currently writing. Obviously, if you don't want to reveal anything, you you don't have to reveal it, but yeah, I'd be love love to know what you're doing at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, so my current novel is a supernatural fantasy set in a Mesopotamian-inspired culture. So I wanted to do something that wasn't the normal English medieval setting for fantasy. Because as much as I love it, and as much as most of my stories are set in that, a lot of the stories are. So I wanted to do something slightly different, and I also wanted the story to be warm, you know what I mean? So, like a lot of the medieval books, they if there's winter and it's cold, and yeah, whereas this one they're set more in a desert temperate climate, and so it has different challenges to it. And yeah, and so it's full of elemental magic as well as gods and goddesses, and my main character, she has the ability to see spirits, and she is pretty much thrust on an adventure when her dad gets to zest one day, and so she has to find a way to save him, pretty much. And yeah, it's a book that I think essentially is about come overcoming your fears or like doing something even though you're afraid. Because like uh parts of the book, which I can't entirely reveal, I'm so sorry, involves her having to do stuff that she doesn't want to do or that she's too afraid to do, but she has to do it, otherwise, yeah, big stakes and all that jazz. But yeah, so I have always loved fantasy as well as paranormal stuff, so ghosts and vampires and werewolves. I'm a true millennial and I grew up with all of the Twilight hype and things like that, and so I wanted to write a book that mixes the two together, and so it's set in a whole new world, pure, it's high fantasy, so it's not in anything like our world. But yeah, so and it's part of a duology, so this is the first book out of two, so there will be a second book after this, and and yeah, so I'm very excited, and I'm excited to share it with the world. That currently the title has not been revealed. I'm hoping to reveal it in the next month or two, and so yeah, lots of exciting things to come.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Yeah, well, it sounds really interesting. I've got to say, like, I'm I'm listening to the plot and I'm listening to like I like the character where they have to overcome some problem in order to obviously accomplish a goal at the end of the book. My personal opinion, the best books are like that, certainly if it's kind of genre anyway. I don't like it if characters are just a bit too, you know, there's nothing to solve. I I tend to think that people, us, we're trying to solve our own problems every day. And that wouldn't stop, for example, if there was an apocalypse or if there's a fantasy, you know, we're in a fantasy world, that kind of thing. So yeah, great sense, great. Yeah, like the Mesopotamia thing. I think that's good. You're right about fantasy. I think it's one of those genres in our love fantasy too, but the medieval times has been overdone. And I think the best writers out there at the moment are trying to find some new kind of new injection show is uh into into this to make it a bit more interesting. Okay, interesting. Yeah, you said you like the paranormal. What is it about the paranormal that that attracts you so much, whether it's whether that's in real life or whether that's in fiction?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

I don't know if there was ever really a thing. They have just loved it since I was a kid. It might be partially because of my dad. He used to love paranormal stuff. And I think I just grew up on the ghost hunter shows, the TV shows, as well as like uh what was it, mythbusters and things like that. So I kind of grew up with these like what if it is real type thing. And I think part of it, because I've also really loved horror, horror is one of my favorite genres as well. And the idea of fighting something that you can't see or something that you can't touch or what have you, is just slightly terrifying. Because if if there's an intruder in my house, I at least have somewhat of a chance if I get like a chair or a baseball bat or something. Whereas if you have a ghost in your house, like there's there's nothing you can really do against ghosts. So I think that element of it has always really intrigued me. Because there's just yeah, it just gives me chills. I'm like, you can't, you can't do anything. You're just you're yeah, stuck. So yeah, I uh I've always really, really enjoyed the paranormal. And like, like I said, since I am a lovely millennial and I grew up with Twilight as well as things like oh, Charlene Harris's books, so like True Blood, things like that, so Vampires, Vampires and Werewolves, and yeah, it's just I think just having that otherness, like being able to become powerful, I think, is probably the thing that I was really attracted to, and that's kind of slightly in my book, but I like looking at the two ways that that can happen. So people who want power to become like powerful, powerful people, or the people who are riddled with fear and they really just want to not be afraid anymore, like that kind of type of power as well. So being able to be like able to defend yourself and not be afraid when you walk out your door, versus the people who are like, I just want power so I can take over the world type power. Um so yeah, so the different ideas of of power also come into play in the book, too.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Yeah, I like that the contrast, especially when you say about paranormal and like you know, if it's a bad guy attacking you, well, you can pick up a chair and you can hit them with it. But if there's a ghost in your house, there's moving objects, you're like, Well, what do you do? Use a crucifix. I don't know. I'd really thought about it like that, actually. But that that that's kind of cool. I think for me, when I when I when I think about the paranormal, and I I've the TV shows you mentioned, yeah, I've I've watched them like ghosts, because it's ghost adventures. I think I've seen ghost hunters when I was a kid. I loved the X-Files, you know, for a TV show, Twin Peaks. I mean, I purge it's like this idea of uh you mentioned otherness, the idea that you know there's something else out there that's you know inexplainable. Like we think about you know sci-fi, you know, other planets, for example, but this is like different dimensions, things you can't see. It makes you think about what happens when we die, nothing or everything, something. So yeah, I really like that. I I haven't written actually any paranormal stuff, mostly because I can't think of anything original. Or or reasonably original. I mean, I've got one idea, but I've got this idea of like maybe a black like teenager that would go to uh he's in trouble with the police and stuff, and he would go to like you know, like a like an ancient house, a mansion or something like that, and his mom is there, maybe she's a caretaker or something, and it it might be about the things he sees, but I don't know anything beyond that, and it's not it's not slated for me to be written anytime soon because I've got just a few more things that are more concrete in my mind and and written down, but yeah, it's really cool, I think. I was gonna ask you as well what would you say are the themes in your books? I mean, beyond what you mentioned about you know fear and overcoming fear? Is there anything else?

SPEAKER_01 18:42

I think a lot of it is self-acceptance as well, because obviously the main character is slightly odd in the fact that she can see spirits and things like that. As well as things like family versus found family, so what makes them like is it blood over water type stuff? So yeah, making connections with others and yeah, as well as loyalty, I think that kind of gets touched upon as well, and just how far someone would go to save someone they love. Um yeah, I think those are kind of the the main themes of the book, which is yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Sounds good, sounds great. I know I know you've been, Caitlin, you've been on I think I think what at least one or two, if it's more, please correct me. Like writing retreats. Can you tell me like just like you know, why you decided to go on these, what were they like, and what you learned from them, please?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

So the first writing retreat I went on was actually rather recently. It was in October, November, November of last year, and this one was with other people. So it was set up by our editor or an editor, Eden Northover, in case anyone's looking for an editor, but she put it together. So she uh did all the logistics and the booking and sorting the food and things like that, and we pretty much just got to show up and she had a whole schedule laid out for us. So we had like built-in writing time, we had workshops to do to talk about different types of stuff about the craft, like showing showing versus telling, things like that, as well as like just group discussion type time, and I I would recommend it to anybody because you get to meet other writers for one, and sometimes that can be really scary because I went on my own without really knowing any of the other writers who are gonna be there, and so that can be a little bit of a gamble where you're just like, oh no, I don't know anyone, but we were all were there for the same reason, and I think when you go there to work on your book to learn from others, you can get a lot out of it because we ended up sharing tips and tricks, we ended up sharing names and contacts, like other types of editors or cover designers or beta readers, things like that. So you get to start to build those lists as well. One of the girls or one of the authors, she had already published her first book out of her trilogy, so she and she self-published. So she told us kind of like how that worked, all of the things that she found surprising, the things that were actually quite difficult or took a long time to do. So having her there was also really nice to just start to get an idea of what self-publishing looks like versus traditional publishing. And yeah, and I think when you go to a writing retreat with the focus or the goal to write, you end up being more motivated because you're like, I this is this is the reason I'm here. I am here to do this because a lot of the time writing gets pushed to the bottom of the list. You've got the dishes to do, or you've got to walk the dog, or you have to go to the shops, or whatever it is. It always ends up getting pushed back, back, back, back. But when you go for one of these retreats, you're Going for that that purpose, and I think that kind of like the guilt of thinking that you need to do something else is just gone because you're like, I'm here for this. This is the thing I need to do. It's the top of the list, and uh, that's the thing I think I really enjoyed the most. The the last two that I went on were just I called the mini writing retreats, but pretty much it was just me getting an Airbnb in the middle of nowhere and giving myself permission to write. And so I ended up having structuring it very similar to how I had been at the the big writing retreat. So I had like a set amount of time in the morning and the afternoon for writing, and then I had a in the middle, I had a walk because I also brought my dog, and so we went on a nice long walk, and it kind of gave me time to think about the next chapter I was going to be working on, and then yeah, and then I spent the evenings either with another tiny writing session or I started to build my query list for literary agents. So I had like a small list of things that I needed to do that were still book related, and so I could pick from that in the evening. Whereas when I had the actual writing time that I had blocked out, I could just write. And I actually had the most productive time whilst I was there. I ended up editing a large chunk of the book both times, and so yeah, I would recommend both, both going to writing retreats with other people, just for like the networking and the motivation, as well as just getting yourself somewhere in the middle of nowhere where you can just write because it just takes away all the distractions and it gives you that permission to do the writing. And so, yeah, I highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah, it sounds fantastic. I was gonna ask you about the writing retreat. Do you do any kind of workshopping there, or is it just about, you know, you know, mingling and meeting other writers, things like that?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, so for at the actual the big writing retreat, Eden ran two workshops. The first one was a show versus telling workshop. So we were looking at ways to show versus tell and ways to tell rather than show, because you don't want to cut out all the telling. There are times when you actually do want to just tell someone or tell the reader what's happening. And then the second one was oh, I can't remember off the top of my head, but she had another workshop as well. I think it might have been character building or something like that. And and yeah, and so like in it, she built in like writing prompt type stuff, and until we did it in real time. So we ended up like writing a paragraph of some kind, and we ended up sharing it and talking about ways to strengthen it, which was really scary because that is someone reading something that you've written in front of you. So that part was that was really scary, but it ended up being really nice because all the all the other authors were really lovely, and all of their feedback was instantly made the the writing better, like instantly better. And so, so yeah, so the the workshops were built in as well. Uh, we also had a little bit of mindfulness slash meditation workshops in the morning and in between the writing times, so it was kind of like uh writing time meditation, lunch workshop, more writing time type thing. So it was structured so that you kind of had breaks in between, so you weren't just writing for like four hours straight, because that can be a lot.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah, how does the meditation help you?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

So it was actually quite interesting because the way that she uh did it was it was uh a different person, it wasn't Eden, so it was a different person brought in who actually is like certified to lead meditation, and so it kind of the way she did it is she prompted or like structured it so that it it involved writing, so it was kind of like opening yourself up to creativity, walking you through things that like you're trying to like open up yourself and let in like the energies and just let yourself be creative and unblock all of the things that might be holding you back, things like that. So it was tied into the writing as well as uh calming you down too. And we did a cacao meditation, which was cool. So you know the the the bean that chocolate's made from when you have it in its normal form, it's like original form, it is really bitter, so you add some sugar to it, but it actually helps, it's like a natural stimulant, so it kind of like gets you energized. So like we ended up having like a little bit of a meditation with this drink, and then we ended up just like writing for like an hour and a half straight because we were all just like, oh my gosh, I have so many ideas, and so so yeah, so it kind of fed into the creativity process as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Yeah, it sounds really interesting. I mean, I have never done a writing retreat, but I've done like a master's degree in creative writing where there's a lot of workshopping. And the poet Sarah James, I interviewed her what, two, three, four months ago now, actually. I met her what 15 years ago, maybe 12 years ago on this course. I'm a big fan of them, to be honest. I'm a big fan of meeting other riders and doing some kind of workshop. And you write, you meet them, you get tips and tricks. I like the fact that at your riding retreat, they've done what's it like classes or seminars on like different things, like show, not tell. Like it for my for our master's degree, it wasn't like that. It was there was workshopping, there was different tasks that you could or didn't have to do, like different prompts you could do. And then we did like a literature component, I think, twice. But uh that aspect of writing, I think, is really good. Like show and not tell. We've I've discussed that on this podcast a few times. How does how do you feel about you know show show and not tell or show versus tell?

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I'm still working on building my show and showing versus telling skills, really. I found that I am very much a stage director with my writing. I think part of it is because I did drama and stuff as my background. And so I find a lot of the time that when I'm describing a room or what they're doing, it's very much like he went here, he picked this up, he did that, and I'm like, oh no, what is happening? And so I have to go back and and fix that. But that's what the editing stage is for. And so, yeah, so I'm definitely trying to build my showing versus telling skills and making it more automatic rather than having to read the chapter again and be like, oh gosh, I've I've just stage directed the whole scene. And so so yeah, I really I think it's something that you have to practice. And I think you also kind of need to read it in other books, so you need to find sections of the books that you really like and just kind of either copy it out or like study how they have done it, because when someone says, Oh, you just need to you need to show that they're angry, so you you have to like show them like they he clenched his fist, and I'm like, Yeah, that's great. But when you get into a much more complicated scene, it becomes much harder to show everything, and so you have to pick out the bits that are most important, otherwise you end up having like a 200,000-word book. And so, yeah, I definitely think it's takes practice and to study it in the books that you're reading because yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

It's a great point actually that about books that you're reading. I when I read quite a bit of Hemingway, and I think he's the master at showing. Sometimes he almost shows too much where you're like, wait, what was that about? What happened? But I I I tend to think with show not tell, there will be times as you kind of intimated that you will need to tell, want to tell. But I tend to think that like show not tell is a great reference point. It's like the sunshine, it's you the sun in the sky. That's what you're trying to aim for, and you can't always do it. I'm I'm re-editing some of my checkstrom books at the moment, and I've gone back. Most of the time, I'm I I I think I'm showing, and then I'll read something, and like, why am I telling so much? I thought I didn't do that. But that that's that's life. In the amount of times I've read, you know, a published novel, and it's telling, telling, you know, so other people do it as well. But I like I said, I think it's just a great reference point instead of you know, where we uh like I think maybe some writers, I think, just they tell, tell, tell all the time and think, yeah, it's fine. This famous writer said it's okay to tell. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think they really mean it like that. What I was gonna ask you as well, Caitlin, is you also mentioned you've got an editor, and of course, they they organized the writing retreat. How did you go about getting an editor? Uh, how have they helped you, you know, writing your book?

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yeah, finding an editor can be hard because there are a lot of great editors out there, and some of it is sending in a lot of most editors should offer a free sample edit. So it's sending in a page to them and they'll edit the page, and then you can see if their style of editing and comments matches what you're kind of looking for. So I think that kind of helps as well. I actually found Eden through TikTok, glorious TikTok. She was running a course, it was like what's it like a webinar. She was she was running a webinar on how to plot a book, I think was the first one. She's done quite a few. And so I ended up signing up to that, and I've kind of done quite a few of her different types of webinars as well as some of the programs she runs. And I think through that I built quite a rapport with her that I I now trust her with my work, which is I think part of it. You've got to kind of find someone who you trust because they're going to be reading your work and ripping it apart to make it better. And so you have to be able to, you don't have to like technically really like them. I mean, you should, but at the same time, you need to, you need to trust them. And so, yeah, so I ended up finding her through that and just building that rapport with her through various webinars and courses and writing retreats and things like that. And yeah, I recommend an editor to everyone, really, especially, and there's different stages, like my right now, I'm submitting my manuscript tomorrow, actually, which is very exciting, to Eden for a developmental edit for a manuscript assessment. So it's not a full developmental edit, it's just like the condensed version of it. But I think because we're so close to our work and we have read that book so many times, we are not going to be able to see all of the iffy bits and all of the plot holes and where the things are sticky. And so I think especially a developmental edit should be done if possible, because that is the one that does all of the overarching stuff. So making sure that all the subplots go all the way through the story, or that you don't just randomly introduce a character halfway through, or uh that the scenes actually flow. And that's one of the things that her assessment will say will be like, actually, I think like chapter 22 could probably be moved up, or you should add a chapter here or this scene. Nothing actually happens, you're gonna have to cut it, which I'm gonna be so sad when she says these things, because I know something in there, she's gonna be like, you don't need that. And I'll be like, no, but they're getting to know each other, and she'll be like, no, it does not actually need to happen. And so, yeah, so I think having an editor, at least having someone look over your work, is definitely key to making sure that it's the best it can be, because you don't want it to be confusing for your readers, because you know the story and you know what you're trying to say, but you don't know for sure that you're getting across that to the reader, because I know everything and I know all the background, and I yeah, so I definitely think it's worth getting an editor at least for the developmental edits, as well as copy and line edits, because then they get to find all the mistakes that you've glossed over throughout the whole novel. But developmental edits are definitely very important.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yeah, if you don't mind me asking, is it like cheap or expensive? That's always been my worry about editors.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, no, it depends on the editor. Usually it's like I forget what I've looked at so many of their rates, but it's like 0.01 or 0.02 or 0.03 cents to a word. So it's per word count. So it depends how long your book is. So those of us who are doing like a romance novel and it's only 80,000 words are not gonna pay as much as someone who is have like 100 to 120,000 words, so it's all word count based. The manuscript assessment is slightly cheaper as well because it's since it's not a full developmental edit, so it's not like with a normal developmental edit, she would be leaving comments in my manuscript throughout the whole thing. So it's much more like in-depth step by step. Whereas the manuscript assessment is a report that has pretty much similar stuff, but it's not as many comments or feedback that direction. It's more just like the overarching like main point that you need to fix. And so the manuscript assessments can be slightly cheaper as well. Yeah, and to be fair, like it all depends on your budget, to be honest. And it's it it is it takes a little bit of research and just seeing what the different rates are for the different editors and finding the one that matches you and your budget.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Great advice, I think. Yeah, it's something I I I've I thought about intermittently over the last few years. I've not done it so far, but it's something I am actively considering. I was gonna ask you as well, like you do a lot of Instagram videos. What got you into that? And you know, how does it help you, you know, maybe advertise yourself or or what do you learn?

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Yeah, so I started them, I think properly. I say properly started them, probably in November time as well, December, November of this past year. I had been posting them before that, but I wasn't really putting a lot of effort into those ones. Whereas now I'm kind of trying to trying a little bit harder. And I think the main reason that I started was a little bit for marketing of myself, of just that reach of getting to know people. Because you can write a book, but if nobody knows that you wrote a book, then how are you supposed to get people to read your book is pretty much the the circle. And so I started doing those just to start to meet writers as well as readers, because I've met quite a few different writers on there, and it's just fun to have someone to talk to you about writing and just building that writing community where you can just be like, right, what do you do if this happens, or what did you do when this came along, or who did you go to for editing? And so building that community has been super fun, and I'm looking forward to building it more. And yeah, so it's pretty much just kind of getting myself out there so that people know that I exist, I think was the main reason. But the s happy side effect of this was that I have fun with the videos. The videos are actually really fun, and they're kind of an accountability thing for me. So now that I have told the world that I'm writing a book, I now have to actually write that book and I have to finish that book. And so I think it kind of keeps me on track where I'm like, well, I can't stop because so many people are waiting to s to read it now. Like I can't just be like, oh, sorry guys, I just didn't feel like doing it now. And so yeah, so I think it's kind of an accountability thing, as well as getting to to meet lots of people as well. Um motivation. Yeah, you can't spill it so yeah, yeah, and it it definitely increases my motivation too. I I think on the days where I'm like, oh, I haven't actually written anything, I'm like, well, I guess I'll just I'll write a paragraph or something, and then so I can have like some kind of video. And and then I end up writing more than a paragraph because I've actually sat down and started writing. So I think that kind of helps as well, just to keep keep it going.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Yeah, you know, I think about videos well on Instagram. I think it's also another side of creativity. You you know you video yourself, but then you get into like you know, subtitles, and you know, I I do my own videos as well, and you get them to you know illuminate and stuff, and you think about titles and it it's fun and it it again for anyone else out there listening, it sounds like a lot of work, but these days it's not. A lot of the time in Instagram is doing it for you, especially with things like audio and and cutting. And I've got you know really quite quickly that can probably do one in five or ten minutes now just for editing.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yeah, no, I'm the same. And it it is it you think it takes a lot longer, and that's the the trap that you fall into as well, is the ones that you end up spending like 10 minutes or forever, like ages editing and trying to make perfect, they ended up they end up not reaching as many people as the ones that you just did in a minute and just put it up there. Because I think a lot of social media is people looking for genuine people. So when you post the videos that are you just being a genuine person, that that people identify with that a lot more. Um the the the well-edited ones are nice as well. I do like to see those too, and they are fun to make, but sometimes you have to just be your authentic self and post it out there for the world.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, I I tend to think rewriting, uh maybe for other things it might be different, don't get me wrong. But I, you know, as a writer, and when I should should I sorry, should I say as a reader, when I want to, you know, read other people's books, I want to know who the writer is and what they're like. So for an Instagram video, I just want people to just say it like it is and just go, hey, my name's John, and blah, blah, blah, blah. I I sometimes you'll have seen this, there are videos in there that are a bit theatrical. And they're okay, but sometimes like I just want to say, hey, who are you? What's your book about? I'd rather know that than you know this attempt at drama, to be honest. Uh, but it is what it is. We're all individuals and we all do different things, et cetera. I was gonna ask you as well, Caitlin. So obviously you're a fantasy writer, paranormal, etc. What are your favorite books and how have they influenced your writing?

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Right. Favorite books. I don't know if I have a small list of favorite books. I picked a a couple, I suppose, as like a true millennial. And even now with the the press of this author who is not as great. My favorite books were definitely the Harry Potter books growing up. I that I think that's what kind of got me into the fantasy genre, and I think that's the same with a lot of people, especially with people around my age who grew up in the 90s and the early 2000s. And yeah, I think that was kind of the base to jump into the paranormal and this idea of a world out there that could be there and you just don't see it, and it's just working alongside. And so I think those were definitely some of my favorite books growing up. And I think uh the ones that actually got me into seriously writing, the ones that inspired me to actually take my writing seriously, were the Aquitar books, which are a gateway book for a lot of people into fantasy. And I think Sarah J. Moss has gotten a lot of people to kind of see the fantasy genre as well as fantasy with the romance romance elements, so the whole romanticy genre as well. And yeah, those books kind of gave me the confidence to start writing. It was one of those where I was like, I I could do this. I could do this, like that, this this is my jam, and I could totally do this. And yeah, so those are those are two of the ones that kind of got me into writing my like bass as well as the the current ones. My favorite books as a reader, other than the Actar books, I oh, this is such a hard question. Probably things like A Discovery of Witches are some of my favorite books too, as well as Oh, Spark of the Everflame. So this is a newer book that has just come out by Penn Cole, the new series, the fourth book is coming out this year, which is really exciting. And the I hadn't realized that I had kind of hit a reading slump recently, and I was reading books and I was enjoying them, but they weren't like capturing my soul like some books do. And then I read the kindred saga, the Spark of the Everflame series, and that was the first time where I was just like, oh my gosh, this this is what I've been missing for so long. Like these books are amazing, and so yeah, if if anyone listening, if you have not read Spark the Everflame, go right now, because you will thank me later.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

I'll remember it. I I haven't I haven't read it either. I should check it out. You mentioned Harry Potter. I mean, yeah, it just it seems like an easy thing to say, yeah, yeah, read Harry Potter, because a lot of people have, but I think sometimes we still need to remember that. I mean, Harry Potter, massive influence on my Jack Strong books. As I'm as I'm rereading my Jack Strong books, I was like, oh yeah, I remember how like I I originally touted it like Harry Potter in space. I I think, especially the first Harry Potter book, you know, it's so good. Is it 77, 76,000 words, you get a great plot, you've got how many great characters above 10, you know, great new world. There's there's very few books I think can do better with that word limit, in my opinion. And yeah, you mentioned about you know the different, like, you know, the the you know, magic and different worlds, you know. I like the kind of you know, the alternative to London or London beneath five feet, and so many of her like writers have have taken that and kind of done their own thing as well. And you mentioned Sarah J. Mass. I I do need, I've not read any of her books. And I and I was just thinking about it today. I'm like, no, no, I need romanticity. Yeah, romantic, it's this this big genre that seems to have exploded and it's just gone right past me. So I should and I should definitely check it out. And it's on my it's not so much on My list is like in my mind somewhat. Next time I go on my like, you know, Kindle, I'll have a look at the Kindle store and see if just how much the books are going to see.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah. And I would I would start with the Throne of Glass series if you're going to start, especially if romantic-esque or fantasy with romance subgenre isn't entirely what you normally read. Because Throne of Glass is much more like Lord of the Rings type esque. So it has more of the like high fantasy in that regard with the elements of romance woven in. But it's more of a fantasy, that one's more of the gateway. If you're not normally a romantic reader, that one's the one you want to start with rather than her other two, which one the Actar is much more romance heavy than the other books. And then her third series is urban-esque. It's like, yeah, that one's that one's completely different from the other one. So it's more of an urban type of setting, but not urban as in like our world, urban. So it's still very fantasy. It's a whole different world, but it's more urban. So yeah, so definitely start with Throne of Glass if you do try to start some of the first off.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah, no, that's that's a good recommendation, actually. I've definitely heard of it. Uh so I should definitely check it out. Uh sure. I was gonna say as well, obviously, you know, you you're you're a new writer, you're working on your first book. Do you have any tips for anybody out there that's got an idea in their head and they're not sure should they be a writer? Have you got any tips for them?

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Um the thing is you just need to write, really. Like, most writers are don't have this like super special qualification or a super big stamp that says they're a writer and you're not. Like it's really just the fact that they had an idea and they saw it all the way through to the end. So you really just gotta start writing, whether it is starting small with short stories, which is a great way to start getting into it if you're not ready for the commitment of a full-on book, because it is, it can be time consuming. So definitely just just write. Like just start writing. If you have this character that can't get out of your head, just start doing stuff with that character, like putting them in different situations or giving them a super cool magic power and seeing what they do with it, like just starting to play with those ideas that are racing around in your head. Also try to figure out if you're a plotter versus a pantser, because that's going to help you out in the long run. If you're somebody who just likes to discover as they write, like Price Brown with the Red Rising series, he wrote that entire thing, just like just writing, like there was no plan. He just wrote and it just came out of him. And like some people are like that. Sometimes a plot or like a plan just kills their creativity. Whereas other people, like myself or like V Schwab, we need an actual plan. And that kind of helps keep us on track, it helps us know where we're going with the story. I think I'm a bit of both. So I like to have a plan so I vaguely know where I'm kind of going and the kind of idea that I'm going with, but leaving enough room that whilst I'm writing, if a different idea kind of takes me, that I can just explore that idea or I can go with it or I can add it in. Because a lot of the subplots in my current book, they came through discovery writing. So it was stuff that I was like, oh, what if this happened? And so then I added that in and it just fit the story so well. You have to be careful not to do that too much, because you can get carried away with discovery writing and you can go on a tangent for like 30,000 words, and then you're like, oh, I can't use any of this. This is a terrible idea. So you have to be somewhat careful with how you how far you let yourself go off on the tangents, but figuring out whether or not you like a plan or whether or not you like to just kind of be creative with it. And it could be that you just have an idea for the start, some vague idea for the middle, and you know how you want it to end, and then you just kind of roll with it and see, see what comes out. Yeah, and I think the the last one would be to read craft books because there are a lot of books out there that will help you build your own craft, as well as taking classes online. There's things like the Brandon Sanderson lectures, which are free on YouTube, so like listening to them, starting to get an idea about that. There's things like Save the Cat, which has like actual story structure type things. There's lots of stuff out there, and that kind of helps you build your own craft and get to know yourself as a writer as well, so that you do build the confidence that you need in order to see a project through to the end.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Yeah, what you're talking about discovery versus outline writing. I'm very similar, I'm probably right in between. I have to have some type of outline, but it is usually not much more than a few grammatically incorrect paragraphs like two. I always need to know my ending. Or and the ending might be vague, the planet blows up. Something like that. And it's about getting to the bit where the planet blows up, and what does it look like when the planet blows up? If that makes any sense. If I don't have the ending, where am I going? I don't there's just so much could go wrong. I need to know the ending. I really, really do. I was gonna ask you though, so what just out of interest, Caitlin, what's your writing routine like then? Do you do you write every day or most days? What kind of thing do you do?

SPEAKER_01 49:23

So I for the longest time thought I was an evening writer because that is when I had the most free time, and then I finally had to accept the fact that I am a morning writer. I would for the longest time I would just come home and I'd be like, right, I need to write now, and I would sit in front of the computer and nothing would come out because my brain would just be so fried from the day. I would have no more creative juices, I'd have no more words left, and then I would feel awful because I wouldn't have written anything, or I would have written like two sentences, and then it just became this like vicious circle. I was like, Well, I I'm not gonna write today because I just know nothing's gonna come out. Once I flipped my schedule, so now I try to wake up about an hour earlier than I normally would, and so I get a writing session in the morning, and since then I have become so much more productive because that's when my brain is ready for writing, but I also took the pressure off of having to write because I've already had that session in the morning, so then I was like, oh, I've I've already done that. So then if I did end up having extra time after work, then I could do that, but then I would be like, oh, but I've already done that, so then it's fine. And I was just like extra writing that happened, and so so yes, I'm definitely a morning writer. I do tend to write every day, usually, unless something happens with my schedule or life, pretty much, but I do try to to write every day. Yeah, so it's it takes a while to find your your writing schedule, and I think you kind of just have to play around with it and try different times, try things that you didn't think you would like. Like I definitely was 100% adamant that I was not a morning writer. Like I was like, no, I'm not gonna get up earlier just to write. Like, I've got plenty of time in the evenings, why would I do that? And then it turns out that was exactly what I needed. So just play playing around with it, I think, is the key to figuring out what time is best for you.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Yeah, it's a good point about playing around with it. I tend to think, I think if we're all lucky and we have 20, 30, 40 years of career as a writer, I think we'll change so much. And I think I think we have to be flexible enough to go, oh, my life is like this at the moment. I need to keep writing. So therefore, I have to make this commitment. I started out writing, writing poetry in the evenings. I thought I was a nighttime writer, loved it, loved it. And then and then just completely twitched and started writing only in the mornings for a long, long time. And then recently I've got like a you know, very young family and my my kids really young. And so I'm I find these days I'm writing all over the place. Like every day, sure. But like sometimes riding, you know, on a computer in a in a taxi to and from school, over time a little bit at school, a little bit at work. Sometimes now, because my kids go into bed a bit earlier, you know, it's not a school. I try to do writing or editing as it is at the moment at home. But you're right, sometimes you just you're beat. And I but I always I always say to myself, okay, if I'm really tired, if I'm dead tired, I'll say to myself, just give me 20 minutes, 30 minutes, especially if it's just editing. I'll just just do 20 or 30 minutes. And I always find I do a bit more. And I always find that, you know, but the next day, I'll get more done, you know, and I and but I find I have to be flexible at the moment, unfortunately. I'd love, I have to get up every morning at the moment at six. And I think if I was to get out an hour early at five, I'm not gonna survive.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

You never know until you try, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Yeah, but if I if I had to get up at six to do writing, yeah, no problem. And I've done that before. I've I've done what you've done. Sometimes it's the best thing, maybe the only thing you can do as well. It I think it depends on your schedule. Caitlin, what time do you wake up in the morning then to do writing?

SPEAKER_01 53:26

You're gonna love this. I wake up at five.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Oh, yeah. Okay, good for you. Good for you.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

I was the same where I was just like, I can't do it. 5 a.m. is not a real time. Like that's just that's ludicrous. And then yeah, I I think I I started doing it where I just made it like 15 minutes earlier than my time. Because I used to wake up at six as well. And then I was like, all right, I'll wake up at 5 45 and just do like a really quick session. And then I did that for like a week, and I was like, okay, now I'll do it 5 30, and then did it for a week. So I kind of like inched my way towards five. I didn't go cold tripping and just start doing five because it is really early. It is really early. Luckily, here it's a lot easier now because in Scotland, in the spring, it's light at 5 a.m. So your brain's kind of tricked into thinking that it's a normal time of the day when it really is super early. In the winter, it is a lot harder because it is just pitch black for so long outside. But yeah, um Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

Maybe I'll give it a go. We'll we're like I say we're moving this summer, and I think my my schedule will change somewhat. And it might be that you know, if I'm going to school, maybe I wake up at 6 30. So maybe I could definitely wake up at 5 30 and write. I could do that. Five. I I find it hard sometimes to go to bed at a reasonable hour. I go to bed, I should have gone, I should be going to bed at 10:30. 11 at the latest. But if I was going to bed at 11 or 10:30 and waking up at 5.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Yeah, that was the biggest adjustment for you to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

I'm dying, I'm dying.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Yeah, because I'm usually a half 10-11 sleeper as well. And when I started waking up at 5, I was like, I have to go to bed at half nine. Half nine? Like, I'm a granny now. What is this? But yeah, that I think was my big adjustment too. Because if I kept the same time for bed, I woke up so tired, and then I was just grumpy, and so it didn't work out. So yeah, that part is hard. I think that was harder than waking up early. Well, starting to go to bed early.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, to be fair, you're making me think about it now, and that's one of the reasons why I do these podcasts to just learn from other writers and consider, you know, different things. Just just uh one final question before we before we uh wrap things up. AI, it's the big hot topic in writing and publishing these days. What is your take on it?

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Yeah, so it's here and it's not going away. Ever, probably. And big publishers use it. They're not currently using it to generate books or anything like that, but they use it for like marketing, for audiobook narration, translation, spotting data trends, all that stuff. So they're they're already using it. I personally won't use it for any part of my creative process. I know others use it for like a search engine or to research things or to help them plot the story and stuff like that. And I personally, I just want my book to be 100% me. Like it came purely from my brain. And it might be like it's from my brain, but also from like the influences that influenced me. Because obviously every book has influences from other books or other stories and whatnot, and they're woven in. But I want it to be that amalgamation of my ideas and the stuff that influenced me rather than using AI to do that. So yeah, so I I personally won't use it. Other people I know do, and that's just their personal preference, really, because it's here to stay. So you kind of just have to work around it or what have you.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Yeah, interesting take on things, to be honest. I I'm trying to ask this question to every writer that comes on the show now. Yeah, I don't have it in my creative process at all. Zero. Don't feel like I need it, to be honest. I like what you said about the publishing companies, because I didn't realise it was that widespread. I know they're using it in sales, and I know they're using it with things like comp titles, but I didn't realise they're using it for audio but narration and translation. That that's pretty big. I I do think it's here to stay, and I think it's only gonna get better. I'm a big believer that I think in the future AI will be very good at writing average books. And average books still might sell well. That doesn't mean it's not a best. There's plenty of best sellers and not necessarily good books, but I don't think it's gonna write, you know, a top novel that will still be with us in a hundred years' time and makes people think in different ways, like say of Mice and Men or something like Macbeth, Hamlet, anything like that. I just don't think it's possible.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Yeah, I think it will never have the the human element, which is what makes all of those books good. Like it it it won't be able to make the characters relatable enough because it isn't a human, so it can't relate to us. So how would it make its characters relatable? Yeah, but it's a whole a whole bunch of conversations.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Yeah, you were saying about your the book you're writing and about how like you the main character, you know, they're afraid and they're work in in the book, they're working to overcome their fears. How can an AI truly understand fear if they don't feel fear? I I mean if they do feel fear, but I think they they would they would feel a simulation of fear, and that's that's like acting, isn't it? You know. Uh again, just because you're a great actor doesn't mean you're a great writer because you simulate things. So I'd be very surprised if it gets to that level, to be honest. But I think it's here to stay. I think it's gonna be in book cover design a lot more than I think we realise. Uh I I think that it's getting to that stage where it'll be it'll do things quicker, better, cheaper. And I think that's just gonna I I think that I think it's gonna go into editing. I think I know that I know you're not using you're using obviously a human editor. Again, I wonder about the publishing companies. You know, I I I think they will maybe, for example, copy editing, you know, just even just spotting typos and stuff, or counting how many times you use the word suddenly. They might start using it for things like that. I would probably say, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

Yeah, I could see that, definitely. I know I know of a couple of writers who use it as an editing tool as well. And yeah, I just I just don't want to feed myself into the AI brain, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

Yeah, I I don't need it at all. Right, Caitlin. I think we can end things there, okay?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I've had a lovely time talking about writing and my writing journey, and I hope those who are listening take something away from our chat.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Well, I'm sure they will. I mean, I especially the stuff about editors and and you know, the writing retreats, writing routines, five o'clock starts. Love it. Love it. I mean, I love hearing about your book as well. And yeah, let me know and let everybody know, like, you know, further on the line, how are you doing, you know, with the book and you know, whether you're gonna submit to agents, for example, whether you're gonna do the indie publishing group, let me know, let everyone know. I think I think it's you know it's really interesting to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Yeah, definitely. I'll I'll be posting updates on both TikTok and Instagram under KJ Author. KJ.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Yeah, looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

Yeah, it'll should be good. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

Yeah, you're welcome. Okay, I'll see you later.