#30: Poetry Unzipped - In Conversation with Ansuya Patel and Sarah James

Want to listen to some top-notch poetry?

In this episode, three UK poets - Sarah James, Ansuya Patel, and Heys Wolfenden - discuss three of their poems. They also share their thoughts on the benefits of attending book fairs, how travel can have a positive impact on your writing, and how the podcast is providing a platform for other writers.

Perfect for writers and creators everywhere! 

You can find out more about Ansuya Patel's work here: https://indigodreamspublishing.com/ansuya-patel

And Sarah James' here:

https://www.sarah-james.co.uk

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of What the Haze. I'm your host, Hayes Wolfenden, author of the Jack Strong series of books. I'm here today with Ansulia Patel and Sarah James, two UK poets and two poets who I've had on my podcast recently. In today's episode, what we're going to be doing is each of us are going to read a poem. We're going to discuss the poems, and then we're going to have a general discussion, a little bit about the kind of work that we're working on right now, plus a little bit about poetry in the UK and any other matters that just, you know, come to our attention. So welcome, Ansua and Sarah. Hello. Hi. Yeah, nice to see you both again. Absolutely fantastic, I've got to say. So, Ansua, I believe you're first up with your poem, okay?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

I will, okay. This is from my debut collection, Wolves at My Door, and I'm going to be reading Did You Bring Gifts? I'm pushed against train doors, bags pressed to my breasts, the world clamouring at the exit. I fight through a sea of bodies. I freeze as I spot my uncle waving. I wrap my shawl around me twice. I zip up my thoughts, stretch out in the back of his blue marti. Children wave, spread their hands on the car windows. Pen, sweets, rupees, madame. I hand out by rose, pear drops and smiles, horns hoot, bollywood blares. Four hours later we arrive at a village off the map. I step out of the car into my grandmother's arms. Mask, sandalwood and her shrinking bones wrap around me. Women scrum around. Remember me? Me? Me grabbing my bags. Did you bring gifts? A woman takes my hand. It's Auntie, Sona. You used to play in my yard. Give me money, please. I hand her a twenty pound note, and gold bangles jingle on her wrists. Another tugs at my strap. I hand out ten pound notes like thank you letters. It's all a blur after twenty years. Grandma takes me inside, closes the door. I feast on Idli, Dosa and watermelon juice. In the shower I spit at a neighbour leering through the window. I sit on the porch while my two sisters in law nibble pistachio halva. One asks, How's London? Shopping, parting, lots of sex? How many boyfriends do you have? Not my London, I say. I like your jade dress. When you go, leave all your dresses, your makeup and your sandals. The other demands. A sudden shrill kick kick kick and a red necked falcon dives down, flapping her wings.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Thank you very much, Anthria. Loved it. Thank you. So can you tell me please what what inspired the poem in particular?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

This poem, it was a thought actually. Because I grew up in India as a child from the age of four and eight. And in my twenties, I went travelling back to India. It was 27, 28, with a friend of mine, and we were in Goa, and we decided to take a train up to the north of India, Gujarat, where I grew up. And I went to see my wanted to see my grandmother. So I went to see my grandmother, and everyone just appeared. All really just turned up because you know, you know, we're here, they're excited. Seriously, I couldn't remember their faces, but everybody knew me. They said, Oh, he's a play in my garden, he's a play in my yard, do you remember me? And they they just started opening my bags, going through my things, and I was overwhelmed with emotion. I felt really grateful, actually, really grateful. So I just started getting rid of things, giving things away. It was the weirdest thing. They wanted everything. And then I kept my passport. So and that memory was that memory was with me. So when I was writing towards the collections and poems, this memory I had, I wanted to write, I wanted I wrote through it and it became the title of the poem, Did You Bring Gifts? Because that's how it felt. It still feels that way if I go back to India. The first thing they do is ask you, what did you bring them? Yeah, it's like Christmas, every time we're there. So that's what inspired the hick of the poem. Thank you. It's really lovely. Thank you, thank you. It's uh it's just deciding what to what to leave out when you're writing. I tend to overwrite, so it's just cutting it down. What do I want to say? What's necessary in the poem?

SPEAKER_02 4:19

It's really interesting because when I read it at home before hearing you read it and talk about it, I maybe felt about it in a slightly different experience about the kind of people that always want things from you, if that makes sense, rather than as it being a wonderful thing, as the kind of that there are some people you get to meet in the world that always want something from you, and not always as directly as this, but in less obvious ways, and it made me think about that a lot, actually. The people who are grateful to see you, not because you're family and because they love you, but because there's something else they want from you, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Absolutely, and then too, they do want from you because even now I think it's a cultural thing, they will openly ask you, What do you do? How much do you earn? How much was your house? It's so invasive, and you're you're almost shocked. You're like, How do I answer this? Do I have to answer this?

SPEAKER_02 5:09

I mean, maybe the other side of that is that it's open, that it's direct. There's no kind of there's no forceness, I guess. There's no layers, whereas that's of course the other thing you I you come across quite a lot: the fake layers, the fake friendship, the fake X, Y, or Z. And it's just there, they're delighted to see you and asking for stuff as well at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

But yeah, the yes and no, you don't really know if they're delighted. They're delighted, maybe they're delighted at the moment, and then it becomes like, well, can you it's like a continuous thing. Can you send us this? Then they give you a list of things they would like. So you know, yeah. How how far do you go with this?

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Yeah, I the I hand out£10 notes like thank you letters really kind of got me.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

I was like, Oh, it's interesting. Literally, they did. They wanted all my clothes, and I thought, but they're different size and shapes, so it was quite interesting. Quite interesting. And I did leave everything. I didn't have much with me at the time, just a suitcase full of clothes, so it wasn't really just travelling clothes.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Well, I guess that's because you were how spectacular you must have looked as well, though. How wonderful you looked when you got there, which is really nice. Whereas I if I go somewhere, people will be like, oh my god, you have you been travelling for for three days?

SPEAKER_00 6:35

And I think it's it's not even that. My mother goes every year, but there's an expectation, like, oh you're living in London. They assume I can go out and pluck out 50 pound notes from the tree outside, I wish. You know, they assume, and I don't know if they would do it now because things have changed. India's, you know, they're doing really well. A lot of them are really a lot of them are really prosperous. So I think it's just a habit, an expectation. They have a few, and they don't realise that you work you're working, you're doing so many things, juggling so many things, and their lives are pretty comfortable. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Yeah, I'm gonna if I just jump in as well. Like one thing I got from it as well is like the your family in India. They obviously have an idea in their mind, prefixed notions about what London is. And it's almost like a mythical place. They've obviously heard stories told by other people. Well, I I really like the bit about, you know, one asks, you know, how's London? Shopping, partying, lots of sex, how many boyfriends do you have? And then I love it where you you say, not my London, I say, and like it's it does it's a bit of humour in there. I I found that really, really, well, you know, very humorous, really. And it kind of you got that contrast and you've got that sense of preconceived notions and this this idea of and again you've mentioned it earlier about like the the village is like off the map, and whereas London is very much on it, and you get that contrast. I find it so interesting. Yeah, I I I think they were very honest when they say, What have you got? At least they're not not saying that, but secretly thinking that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so I find that just very timing and um I look back, I I like, you know, horns hoot, Bollywood Blair, and you get that sense, of course, the hooting horns, but what is Bollywood Blair? It could be, you know, stereos, for example, it might be the the swagger of the place. It's up to the reader, and I I I really like that. And another one I really liked actually is the the end of the first danza, you know, I freeze as I spot my uncle waving, and you get this sense that obviously you're from the UK, you're from London, different way of life, different expectations about what women might do. And then it's like I wrap my shawl around me twice, zip up my thoughts, and love that verb, zip up. And you get that sense of like, oh, I have to behave, maybe not completely differently, but just maybe a little bit differently. Again, I really like that, and you start to get a sense of understanding and knowing some of these different characters.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

You're right, spot on, you're right, because it's different nuances, you know, sign of respect, and also I was slightly shy. It's been a while. He hasn't seen me since I was very young, and there's other things that have happened beforehand. So there's so much you want to say in a poem, but not say, you know, because there's a story, there's a backstory to this. So I guess you know, there's always a backstory to everything. There's a backstory to a poem. So that what do I say? But so I was trying to write that in as well. It's quite interesting. And in India, it's a culture shock, it's shocked to all your senses as soon as you get there. The food, the music, the sound, the the traffic. It takes a while to adjust, and the kids do. You know, they're constantly asking. Kids are constantly asking for things, especially in the cities.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

With Haze on when he pointed out the zip the zip up my thoughts, that's gorgeous. Uh but I think all the the throughout the verbs are really strong verbs, which actually really help with reinforcing the whole scene. I I mean, I like the little one about her shrinking bones wrap around me when you've got the whole that stanza finishing with the did you bring gifts? I mean, getting the inside in that is that you are actually a gift for for your for your grandmother.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Well, that's lovely, yes. Exactly. She was just happy to see me, besides, yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

Yeah, it makes you think. Yeah, the shrinking bones wrap around me, you're right. It's one part of the the poem that's like it's like semi-tragic, and you get that sense of you know, old age, for want of a better word. Yes, and just that sense that time you know moves on fast, especially for some people, you you know, as as a young girl, you probably didn't feel that at the time, but you saw it, you know, you know, with your with your grandmother. Yeah, it's so interesting. I like a lot of the nouns in in in the poem as well, and you know, they they they seem to come together really well. Another one that I I was like I puzzled over was like I hand out by rose, pear drops, and smiles, and I was like, why rose? And there must there's obviously a reason, but I was wondering what it was.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Pens, because they constantly want sweets and money, but if they have a pen, they could use it to write notes, let letters, you know, write to each other, maybe pick up a piece of paper or a postcard. I would prefer to give them pens and you know notebooks or sweets and smiles rather than money.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Yeah, and you mentioned pair drops, maybe I want to have some right now. I've not had them in each.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

I had some with me, and I thought, well, I've got this pair drops, you know. You can't go wrong with pair drops. Well, thank you both. I love your feedback.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Yeah, you're welcome. I was gonna say as well about India. I've been to Nepal, and which is obviously culturally very similar to India. And yeah, I experienced similar things where I think it was in Pokhara, and I I was just walking around like a lot of the villages and stuff like that, and just doing my own like hiking, and you have the children running up to you, give me money, give me money, give me money. I'm like, whoa, you know, because I'm sure people do give them money, like mountaineers and stuff. Um I didn't give them anything. But that was like, yeah, a huge attack on the senses, and one of the best holidays you know I've ever had. Just absolutely fantastic. And I'd love to go back and India is my my number one country to travel to. Well, I I want to say next, it's not next. It's it's I've got to keep you know, pass it through my you know, my wife, and she's Chinese and she thinks it's really dangerous. But I'd I loved, I'd love. I might go, yeah. So she doesn't want me to go on my own, but I might go with a friend. Maybe not now, because my my son's still kind of young, and it would be kind of hard to just leave him, you know, with my wife and his mum. But I think I'd prefer me, maybe in a few years, maybe go to somewhere like you know, Mumbai. Yes, or you know, like somewhere like Calcutta. Or I always sorry, I always forget the I know it's co Kolkata. I can never remember it.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Calcutta, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Yeah, but I prefer the old the old one, Calcutta. I can just remember it a bit quicker. But I wouldn't mind going there, rightly because I think it's the sun Sunderbands, I think it's pronounced Sunderbands. And I'd like to see the tigers. You can go on tiger tours there. And I'd love to see a Bengal tiger in the wild, like you know, Safari.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

That would just blow my mind.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

I would love it. You would love it, Hayes. I mean, Calcutta is quite different to India. I've been to Calcutta, it was a culture shock. Oh my god, I couldn't believe it. It was just a shock for me going to India. India has changed, it's changed a lot, and it's safe. It's pretty safe. And the kids, I think the nicest things I experienced with the kids in India was buy them all teens, tin suites, and them all sitting around you, and they want to talk to you. That was so wonderful, you know, because they want to talk to you about England, about London, and then you can ask them about their school, what they're and it's really it's amazing what they're all reading and studying, and what they they just it's I found that the most rewarding, having conversations with kids. Yeah, all right, okay, interesting. So, yeah, no, it's wonderful. And I'm sure you'll go to India, you'll have a great time. It's an experience, it's an experience.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

I think India for me is like the definition of like urban trekking, like urban hiking. You know, you can just walk all around the city in any direction. You can even loop around and go back on yourself, and you will be having an amazing time. Everything you see will be like, whoa, this I I've got to take this photo and all these different angles because oh my god, oh my god, my my battery is just dead.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

You know, it's an experience. Even for me, it's an experience. Every day's an experience, every moment's an experience in India. That's what I love. You'll be walking across the road, there'd be a cow coming across, everyone will stop, it's then there'll be a prayer going on, so it's just it's amazing for writing poetry, actually.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, and for for anyone out there, like when you mention cows, like I I've seen cows on the streets in Nepal, like Kathmandu and Pokhara. And you see when you see it in a photo, it doesn't oh, oh, it's a cow on a road. But when you see it in person, the the alienness, the strangeness, the exoticness. I was in Nepal and there was a cow fast asleep, curled up fast asleep, like it was a cat or a dog, in the middle of the road. Wow, cars and uh the scooters are just going past it, giving it a wide berth, and you just like the the element of trust on the part of the cow to like just do that and not not not be afraid. No one no one hits them, of course, because of the you know the religion and and uh the traditions. I found that just like sacred.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

It's like you've got a goddess in the middle of the road, you don't want to knock a goddess over, do you?

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Exactly, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Just just chosen a spot. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

Oh, you're welcome. Fantastic to hear it and fantastic to read it, I'll be honest. Okay, so next, Sarah, do you want to go next or or me? I don't I don't mind.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Fine to go next, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

So mine's from my collection Darling Blue, which came out the end of last year. It interweaves art-inspired poems with a fictional personal narrative. And this is one of the personal narrative ones. My last unsent letter. The ring you never gave me shines more brightly on my finger, placed there by him, beside a gold band that can't be broken. For years I refuse to look at any pictures you'd love, in fear I'd catch light again, a kindling which would never burn itself out. I still carry a small flame of you with me, but in a love that's as solid as it is molten, taking on all the shapes and forms asked of it, even the ones which may always lie beyond you. Blue now is the summer sky that he and I live, laugh, and love under, the still lake we walk around, the sea which breaks from crashing waves into surf angels on sunlit shores. Up close, this blue isn't a liquid anyone can drink, but distance is illusion. It trickles colourlessly through clasped fingers, falling away more silkily than a dress strap from my shoulder, or a brush stroke of clear varnish, across a flaking canvas already forgotten by its creator, in the search for a blue so intense it can only ever grow deeper. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Thank you. So, yes, Sarah, what inspired this poem in particular or it's one that I need partly that it was needed for the narrative, for something at the end. Partly it's related to the collection as a whole, in that it has um it has a subtitle, which is The Lover I Couldn't Forget. But I umden aard for a long time about whether it should be the lover I couldn't forget or the love I couldn't forget, with love therefore being able to stand for both the real man in the in the fictional narrative and the art. And I think it kind of goes back to that the sense of someone, this man loving art maybe more art and being a lover more than actually loving someone and yeah. There's a lot of stuff that I play with to see what what in there, to see whether it would work or or not work. And I I guess if I'm honest, I've also been really fascinated by the fact that we talk about the blue sea and it looks blue and the lake looks gorgeous blue, and we think that's wonderful. But then as soon as you actually hold the water, of course, it's not blue in any way, shape, or form. Um so the physics or yeah, I think it's physics, isn't it? Of that has always fascinated me. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

One thing I really like about this in particular is I don't know if you remember, Sarah, you were on my podcast, it was in December, and I I'd read these poems in this collection beforehand, and I was under the assumption, not not entirely incorrectly, like the you know, the these love poems, this fictional affair, I was under the illusion that it wasn't fictional, that it was like, you know, it's based upon your truth. So so when you said to me in in the the podcast, well, you know, this is fictional, I was I was like then and I'm still like now. Wow. Like, because I I I think it's I personally think it's one thing to write a story or a novel about a fictional affair where you can, you know, bring in your own experiences and stuff and fictionalize it for poetry to like because you've got to get the emotion, you know, and I think you've done an absolutely fantastic job, not just through this point, but the other poems in the collection where you've got this doomed love affair that I mean I personally, you know, I've been in I've been in many doomed love affairs, but I I kind of can see myself in the poem or aspects of you know past relationships or past experiences. I think one of the things I like a lot is like, you know, I mean it's a second stanza. Yeah, for years I refused to look at any pictures you'd loved. In fear, I'd catch light again, kindling which would never burn itself out. And like this idea that like, you know, if if you meet someone again or if you see a picture of them again, it all comes back. And maybe the love comes back or obsession comes back, however you want to phrase it. And I really like that one in particular. And it was kind of, you know, again, yeah, I I think when when you've had I personally think when you've had past relationships, even though they're over, still a little part of you still like a little part of them, you know, minimum. You know, it depends on on depending on the people. It might be more. And so I did like that. And I've had past relationships where you know you kind of maybe do still think of them occasionally. So yeah, thank you for for sharing that. I thought, yeah, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Well, thanks, hey. Sarah, I love this poem. I love the whole collection. And I too, like Ace says, I thought this is about a love affair. And you know, it's it's that third stanster. I still carry a small flame of you with me, but in a in a love that's as solid as it as it is molten. So I'm sensing that you're still carrying a flame for this past lover, you know, somebody you were involved with, and he's still holding out. So it's interesting, it's amazing what you've done. Yeah, like Kay says, it's amazing how you conveyed emotion into a fictional character so well that, you know, it's uh for the reader, it feels sounds like it sounds very real. Like this is a love affair that was, you know, destined to end, but still it left a mark on you, you know, and uh that's what I sense throughout looking at the art looking at the reading of poems and up close, it's blue, it's not a liquid anywhere. Anyone can drink, distance is illusion, so it trickles colourlessly through clasped fingers. So it's almost like it still has a hold over you, you can't let it go because you're still reminded of this feeling you're carrying with you. It's like a person, you know, when they've been in you you've known them for so long, you can't let them go, and even when you've let you think you've let them go, you're reminded something reminds you of them. So throughout the poem, it's really rich and uh the title too, my last unsent letter, that again I thought, oh, that's the letter she wrote to the collection to someone, you know, tell of the affair which you never sent. So again, that's what I thought it was. It's quite interesting. Really well done.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I guess you'd I'd draw but yeah, we've all had relationships in the past. I think it's drawing on stuff. The value in fiction is it doesn't have to be in any way, shape, or form true. So you can just make it hap happen a different way, urge different pasts into one. You can borrow from other people's stories and things you've heard. Uh yeah, that all that all fed into it. I guess I also I mean, my own thoughts about love are that you that if you love someone, you love them, I guess. What happens is though we're all changing all the time. So if you're in love with someone and and you're both changing and you remain in love with them, that's very different to a past person who you loved in the past form they were, like however many years before. And you probably still are in love, even as you've grown up with that person then. But if you met them again, that's where maybe it wouldn't be. If if you that flame might not still be there. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

I hear you. Thank you. I hear you. I hear you. Yeah, I it's so true because if people read a poem of yours, they assume it's all about you, don't they? We all it is. I do it, we all do it. Yes, because in poetry we write so honestly, and we kind of we share, we open up the heart. So we assume when I read a poem, I think well, they should have shared about themselves, they're writing about themselves, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

No, I mean I think that's why when I was doing it, I wanted to be quite clear that it was a fictional narrative because in the past I I have got books where they might mix some stuff that's autobiographical with some stuff that is if I were in my those shoes, how might I react? kind of stuff. And I kind of realised that actually, maybe with poetry, you do have to be, if you're gonna do something fictional, a bit more upfront. This is fictional, but you do very well.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

I know you do very well. That would be very bold if you wrote this and you were still together.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

So I was gonna say, Sarah, as well. I liked your the opening, the opening line, actually. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna open up a Kindle. Yeah, like you know, the ring you never gave me shines more brightly. I just thought great first line gets your attention straight away, and you get that sense that you know the the the character yearning. There's a little emotional turmoil. It's just like the ring that you never gave me. You get this sense that, like, you know, the the girl, the woman. She might look at her hand and she might, you know, see the ring, not see the ring at the same time, and there should be a ring here. And I really like really great way to start it as well. And I like the triplets as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Um, really, really, really good. I was gonna say, I guess the other thing I probably should say, of course, is that quite a lot of the pre-Raphaelites, who were the painters that inspired this, did have relationships with their models, for example. So it's not historical and it's not in any way, but it was meant to be a contemporary kind of mirroring of that. How that happens in the contemporary situation rather than in the historical situation. So part of the idea for that narrative in the first place came from that. It had to be a doomed love affair.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Of course, Sarah. Yes, because some of them had affairs with their muses, didn't they? A lot of artists. So I would have yes. Lots of history there.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Brilliant. There is. I'd have had to be very strictly accurate if it'd been historical though. And I'd have had to be writing in the style of the time, which I didn't really want to do. No, no, this is far more interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Far more interesting. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Okay, I'll read my poem now. Last but not least, I suppose. So this is called Made in China. This is the title poem from my I want to say debut collection. It's not my debut collection, it's my second collection. My first collection of poems was like a romantic pamphlet. Way back when, I don't know what, 2003-ish, I think. 2003 is in my mind, so it must be. It was called The Nightingale and other poems. You know, very lovely, yeah, lovey dovey and quite, you know, a lot of nature poetry that was a bit more romantic in in style. But I I moved on with the MA that you know me and Sarah did together. So I consider this to be my first proper full collection. And it's still the only one, and I'm always adding to it and trying to think of different ways. But I'll read it first of all, and then I'll go into a few things. So yeah, it's made in China, which is the title point. So dressed in black jeans and a fake Nike t-shirt, a woman squats on the street next to the subway station as an army of commuters barge by, stout legs crossed, she bellows on her mat, selling socks, lighters, and key wings, gloves and hats, sweating and grunting under a smoking Beijing sky, leaving only when night clocked as the sun, and bright silver galleons mug the evening, limping back to cold, dark, labyrinthine towers as taxis chug and splutter down the highway and strays, bark and scrap for food. The distant faces of her family foundering to ashes. Okay, I'll just give a brief explanation. Like, it's basically the last bit, the distant faces of a family founding to ashes. It's based on like one of the many like migrant workers that would have come into Beijing at the time. This is this poem was written in, yeah, I think about 2010, 2011. It's quite an old point, but I'm always like working on it and tweaking it here and there, which I probably shouldn't do. But when I first went to Living Beijing, I would always go to the metro station and there'd be an overpass outside the station, you would get, and you still do get many different like sellers selling different things. And maybe now in these days, maybe some of them have got maybe a bit more middle class, but back in the day, it's basically farmers from maybe one or two provinces away. And you got the sense it's a very hard working life. And a lot of them, when when it says it like again towards the end, going back to these cold, dark labyrinthine towers, a lot of them are sleeping, you know, maybe 10, 12 in a room, you know, with obviously with other people, and it's all very crowded. It's and this sense of, I suppose at the end of like breaking bonds with with family and things getting frayed. Yeah, I found at time, you know, when I first went to Beijing, a bit like you're going to India, it was a mind riot. It was just really, really going at you. And it was quite shocking. You'd you'd see some sites that were just like like beggars that had been blown in half, you know, just and and and I'm oh, you know, and and that kind of gets into that gets into the poems a lot in particular. I found it quite profound and quite shocking an experience. And there's a lot of contrast in in the in the poems as well, and it's quite urban. And that that's just the background, really, and that's it, really. That's all I want to say. If you've got any any questions or any points, let me know. I don't mind.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

I was gonna say it's such a powerful poem, Hayes. But yeah, I've read it several times, and it really hit me every time I read it, it hit me, it was so visceral. I mean, the lady in the Nike t-shirt, you know, I love the specificity and the language you use in your poem too, chugging along. But just I can picture her, I could picture her sitting there, you know, just kind of broken, lost, you know, just and you know, I read a lot of articles about China, you know, people coming in from religious into the cities to get work, and there's this whole thing about it's just survival. It's trying to survive, and that was it must be hard on the human spirit, and also as an observer, it's hard on you to witness that every day. It's it's really it's difficult because you feel powerless over it, and they're feeling powerless, and it's that, you know, you feel torn, but you can read it so well in the poem, and every line, every noun, you know, it was just so specific and on the on the nail, really, you know, really hit hard. I found it very hard to read, you know, read, but it's fantastic, very powerful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Yeah, I I'd echo that it's really powerful. And I especially loved how I mean really strong, strong verbs. Mug and limping and chug and the bellows and the night clots. The night clots, the sun. They're just such interesting and strong verbs that that really struck me, as well as all the details of what's actually going on in the scene, if that makes sense, the visual ones. I I like the the way the the rhyme becomes more prominently, the end-of-line rhyme, to the mug, the dark, the chug and the bark in the third stanza, which kind of really gave a lot of force to that. I think possibly because it's the end of the day, I'm assuming. And the night and the dark, and that's what it's all built up after hours and hours to limping home it it in that state. Yeah, and incredibly move moving, so moving that final couplet. And I love the title as well. Made in China. I mean, how many times in this country do we pick up something and it's made in China? And we just made in China, made in China, and we don't pay much attention to it. And this is kind of really what does made in China actually possibly mean?

SPEAKER_03 33:44

So for the poem, I it's my fault. I should have mentioned what it means about three or four things. What I try to do sometimes with titles is if it can mean three or four things, there's just more meaning. Because it we because I I tend to write sonnets, I should say. Why? No, I don't know. I just do. And I like the challenge, and I really like the form, but I and but of course it's quite a restrictive form at the same time. And if I can get as much meaning as possible in there, then that's of of everyone's, I think the benefit to everyone, I would say. But yeah, made in China, it means like, yeah, made in China, these things are made in China, the products are made in China, the people are made in China. There's a bit of bit gets a bit meta. I'm made in China. Like the idea that, you know, I've come to China to work and it's helping me with my my teaching career. I felt like I was changed and became a better poet by being in China, to be honest. And so that that I think for me is is quite strong. But then also crucially, the problems are made in China as well. Like it can be fixed. You know, that that that's also important to me, too. So it's about three or four different things, really.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Wow, I love that. You know, but that could be a title for a collection of poems made in China. There is so much there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Well, yeah, it is. It is, it is the title of uh I've got a collection of poetry on Amazon, but I do mean to I need to get it into the paperback form. It's just a a Kindle at the moment, but there's 50 sonnets. But the actual full collection on my computer is well above 120, to be honest. Not all of the same quality, of course. And there's there's somebody that I need to go back and edit and change and maybe maybe even completely rewrite. But yeah, it all kind of fits together, and like the idea is each poem complements each other. And sound is a is a big part of this poem and the other poems. The idea that when you're reading it, you get that I I had the word cacophony in my head at the time. I remember Ted Hughes said that he would always have the word horizon in his mind when it when he wrote poems. And for the for these poems, I had cacophony, this idea of like you know, jarring noises, because it was a very in fact, a lot of Chinese cities are still like this. So they can be very noisy cities, but the noise is very discordant, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

It feeds back to what you I've heard you say in your you know your reels on Instagram about how much being somewhere else and being out and about has inspired you and created better work. I think I I'm paraphrasing you, so I'm probably paraphrasing you wrong, but along the lines of actually having a life and going places and doing stuff really, really can fuel strong writing more than sitting in that lonely garret.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Yes, that's almost exactly what I said. The other thing I I say is I I'm always a bit afraid of or wary of saying to people, hey, you should go traveling, because not everybody can for many different reasons. But that's why I also say just say you go to work or just say you go for a walk every day down a certain road. Try and go down a different road. Maybe go to a different supermarket. You change things up, and you might you might, in fact, I don't think you might do, I think you would do. You would see people, you would see things that would impact you in some way. And I'll give you a good, another good example. I went back to the UK last summer and I was waking up quite early every day, and for the first few days I wasn't really doing much. And then I decided, you know what? I'm gonna go for a walk. I'm gonna go for a walk down that woodland that I've not been to in years. And I'm gonna go at seven o'clock in the morning, you know, whatever, you know. And I go down there and I realize that's where the deer are. And I see deer not every day, but like once a week. And I'd always been trying to find deer and looking for deer in the UK, because for me, it's the sense of wilderness or wildness when I see deer. There's something because it's not, you know, we I know we do farm deer, but you know, the deer you see outside, it's wild, it's unkempt, it goes where it wants. And to me, there's something really, really exciting about that. And so when I saw one and I just went home and wrote another sonnet. No, I didn't know I didn't go home and wrote the sonnet. I wrote the sonnet about that when I was here, but it uh again impacted me in a certain way, and I and I wrote a different type of sonnet than what I'd done before. So just little things like that at times, just try something new, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

That's brilliant. I agree, I agree. I live in Lambton, and it's true. I could take a tube, go to another part of town, and I feel like I'm on vacation because it's a whole different wire, different energy, and everyone comes to my neighbourhood to have a sightseeing, Notting Hill. So all the tourists flock here, and I want to escape here. So it is interesting, and travelling does because all your senses are open, and also every day's an adventure, because here we have a bit of routine going on in your life, but when you're away out of your everyday zone and the senses, you know, your everyday's new.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

And I guess that's the other way of of of changing it up, so to speak, is going at a different time. If you've got a certain number of things you've got to do in a certain day, if you switch them to a different time, you can get a totally different experience doing them. But I also think in nature you've got a wonderful aspect in that because nature is always changing, when you're out in the wild or anywhere with an element of wild, you can, you know, go back in three months' time and it will be very different to what it was three months before. Which is I find fascinating. Doing the same actually doing the same walk or the same route, but how it changes over time. Absolutely. Day to day sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Yeah, especially with the UK, you get like you know, autumn leaves is a really good example. And if you're lucky, if you've got you know the winter and it's snow, the way like 'cause here it doesn't snow, which I hate. But you know, if you're in the UK. But when it snows, everything looks beautiful. Everything looks like you know a pre-Raphaelite painting. And I you know, when I live there and it snows and it's it's all on the ground, right? I've got to get out. I don't have to hike up a hillside. I just like to walk around the neighborhood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

And you know, like there was one time and I was a bit sick, and I was like, no, but I'll go out anyway. And I swear the sickness just went off me. I was so happy. I was so elated, you know, and it's just it's just like, yeah, this is great. This is why we enjoy winter, why we should enjoy winter, you know.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

It's interesting for winter.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

So I think we can move on a bit there. So yeah, how is everybody's writing going, or has anybody done anything recently? I I think you you were saying earlier, Sarah and Anne Suria, you went to was it is it Freverse in London? Is that is that right?

SPEAKER_00 41:21

We did, and Sarah was there selling books, so I got to read her in person. It was lovely.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

Yeah, it's the London Poetry Book Fair.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

So uh not all the presses or all the magazines are there, but there are quite a lot. Um, it's a bit of a journey from us for us up from Worcestershire, but it's lovely to go. You get to chat to people, you get to discover presses that you didn't know existed, you'd never heard of before, all that kind of thing. And there are some beautiful books, even though I can't afford even a fraction of them. There are some beautiful, beautiful books that if you go round the stands, you can see it's it's lovely.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yeah, it's so interesting. There were so many publishers I'd never heard of, and uh that and they were doing really interesting things. This is there was one lady who written poetry and had some images, illustrations who just folded right out like a calendar, it just opened out, and that was beautiful. So there was some really interesting, yeah, formatting writers, publishers. Magma was very friendly. They were kind of you know, they're selling their subscription to their lovely magazines. So it's great. You get to see what's happening in the poetry world, and uh I'm amazed by the publishers out there, there's so many.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Sounds fantastic. It's something that I miss here because obviously you can meet people. It's never mind meeting people and networking, it just sounds interesting and it sounds so vibrant to me. I'm gonna check out at some point. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

I was gonna ask you, Hayes, actually, what's a poetry scene like where you are in China?

SPEAKER_03 42:49

In Chengdu, nothing really. I mean, admittedly, you know, if I was single, I'd probably search for it a bit more, or if I was if it was just me and my wife, but because we've got a young kid, even if there was something, I'd I'd really struggle to get away. When I lived in Beijing, yeah, there was quite a strong poetry scene. And actually it had been set up by one of the alumni from Manchester Met University. I think it's called Matthew Byrne. I think he was in the I think he was in the the class before Rose. I can't remember now, Sarah. Um and he said it was called Spittoon and he set it up, in particular in Beijing. It was like open mic nights, that kind of thing. I think they did their own magazine for a while. I think he might still be going, and it's set up around China, but he left and went back to live in the UK. So I don't know if it's still going. And it was really good. In Beijing it was great, and I I'd read out loud poems like these and that that kind of thing. But nothing more than that, really. No like book fairs or anything, at least not to my Knowledge. There was a bookshop there called I think it was called The Bookworm. I could be wrong. And that was in Beijing, but it closed down around I think the time of like COVID. But my new city, Guangzhou, is more international. So it's something I'm gonna check out and just see if there's anything like that. Even like bookshops and if there's any events and that kind of thing on.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Sounds good. Sounds interesting.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Hopefully, fingers crossed. Yeah, yeah. I went to Poetry. The Poetry Cafe, and they have some good events on occasionally. The Poetry Review. There's an uh poet there, Mark Magwalden. He just reads uh he read a bunch of poems on Fly, the Fly. Brilliant. And he memorises all his work, which I found super inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Well, there's a lot more internet on the internet, isn't there, in terms of Zoom, a lot more events Zoom-wise, which helps one get the London scene if we're not in London, which it which is really nice. If you're back at the right time, I think now, recently, Fly on the Wall Press have started for the past five years or so, the Northern Publishers Fair as well. Um fiction and poetry. Um, and I think that's now quite big. I believe Carcanay may be at that one.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

Okay. I should check it out. Not back we're not back this summer though.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

No.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

But I but I should. That that's a good shout. I was gonna say as well, like I where I live in the UK near Halifax, it's near Hebden Bridge. Oh yes. And they have quite a big art and poetry scene as well, and draft scene. And I've been back since, but mostly we've just been a little bit of sightseeing and and and tourism, really. But it's something I I should definitely check out for sure.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

It's hard when you're back though, isn't it? Because you're I mean, my sister comes over from the US, but but when she comes over, she's seeing family. So my cousins who were born in the US and are at that lovely teenage age where they want to be doing stuff and interesting stuff, not seeing old family, really old family. That I think the holiday experience for them is quite different in terms of it not actually being much of a holiday because so much time is taken up with catching up with family that she's not seen. It's tricky, but hopefully for you. And as your son gets older, maybe you'll be starting something if there isn't anything going where you are.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Yes. Um I was gonna say, yes, Hayes, you could start something.

SPEAKER_03 46:38

Yeah, well, as my son gets older, our rough plan is more it's more specific than rough is to come back to the UK anyway.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:46

Ideally before he starts secondary school, because you know it's like making friends, I think. Uh right now he's three and a half or three and four months, whatever. But I think six, seven, eight, nine at the latest, I think we'd be looking to come back. We're starting a new job, we'll see how that goes. I have thought a little bit about doing a PhD in creative writing. I want to start the next job first and and and see how that goes and go from there, really. But yeah, why not? I mean, doing the podcast, of course, in some ways it suits my lifestyle because it's very digital, of course. Uh we're doing this now, my kids asleep, you know. And if if it was like 5 p.m. my time, no chance. But again, as he gets older, I can probably do a few more schedules and stuff and do a few more time slots. It keeps me very busy. But it is growing, it is doing well. It's doing well, I gotta say. Just what's the word I'm looking for? Yeah, baby steps, but growing up. Like, and one good thing I can do whenever somebody joins the Instagram group and that they like poetry, every time now I DM them and I DM them both your episodes and they get downloaded every time. So your your episodes are both still downloading. So brilliant. So with that you work, it does get because that's what I want to do as well. I want to give writers just a bit more, a bit more, what's the word I'm looking for? A bit more of a limelight, a bit more of a highlight, a bit more we're here too. Because if you go on like on like YouTube as I do and you're looking at podcasts and stuff, you know, rightly or wrongly, you know, things like writing does get drowned out. You know, there's there is a lot of, you know, I I get it, political podcasts, totally get it. Podcasts on UFOs, which I do like. You know, the stuff like that. And I think writers, particularly indie writers or, you know, you know, poets like yourself, you know, from the small presses, it's sometimes hard. And even like traditionally published like novelists that are not JK Rowling, they're not runaway successors. They only really sell a few, I say only sell a few thousand books. It's it's a few thousand more than I've sold. But at the same time, I I also want to help them. And so if I if I read a good book and and I know no one's heard of it, I'll give it a shout out on Instagram and it keeps me busy, but I do like doing it, I've got to say. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Brilliant work you do, Ace. Yeah, yeah, I was just I'm totally in awe of all the stuff that you do. I think it's wonderful. I'm very grateful for it as well. I'm sure all of the authors in that Instagram group are, which is growing quite growing quite big now, isn't it? Bigger and bigger by the day, it feels um, which is just a lovely community.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

Yeah, the only problem is sorry, carry on.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

I was gonna say you're doing a great job, Ace, because there are so many podcasts I've got to catch up on, what you've created. So brilliant work.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Yeah, you know, by all means in in your own time. Uh oh, that was a yeah. Yeah, it's it is getting it's getting better. It's it is getting bigger. We I've actually got the first episode to get to 100 downloads to happen today. Oh my god, congratulations. So I'll I'm I'm not gonna name it now. I will announce it. I've not told them yet because I still feel that because of the mess up with I did with Jane McGregor, I still want to promote her episode a bit more. Yeah. Then we've got your episode coming out, and I also I also want to repromote you know your earlier episodes, just on the group, and then I'll announce it. But I think it it's good for the the the authors out there to realise that yeah, it's it's more than like one or two, but it does take time over time. Yeah, I'm beginning to think maybe people can get a hundred plus downloads. I think it's great to be honest, uh you know, especially if you if you're an indie author and and no one's heard of you, and suddenly a hundred people and I I I said on my last one of my last podcasts, I did a shout out to a person that I've never met, don't know who they are, from Basra in Iraq. They downloaded an episode. I've definitely not contacted them via any of my advertising. And they I can't remember which episode it was they downloaded now, but I was like, Yeah, thank you so much. Like, really, you know, and if anyone's listening now in these far-flung places, great. You know, I'm completely, you know, appreciative. Because sometimes you're like, oh my god, it's a lot of work. And you you have a look at the stats, and okay, it's just 20 odd for this episode or whatever. But when you look at the states or you look at the the cities, and it makes you realize these are not numbers, these are not stats. These are real people that have taken the time to listen to your work whilst doing any number of other things. I'm I'm completely you know awestruck about that, to be honest. It's a lot of work, but this is a big payback for me, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

That's wonderful, really wonderful, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 52:07

And I think that's important what you say there, uh, that sometimes it's also about the depth of connection you make with someone, not the number of connections, if that makes sense. I I feel that a lot. Completely different scenario, but in on Substack, the what I love about Substack is it it's maybe not getting as many likes, or but when you talk, you actually end up having conversations. You end up having an ongoing conversation in a way you don't on other social media platforms, which are just social media with your sm you know what I mean, your small snippets and your photo and whatever, or your reel. And I think those are important and it's easy to overlook them sometimes. You know, reaching people in in a completely different area is really actually very significant.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

You're right. It's about relationships you build, isn't it, over time? Because on Instagram, everything is so fast on stories, it's served. People forget because your people are scrolling through usually, there's so much going on.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

And one person speaks to another, speaks to another, and you don't know where that person's going to speak to the one person who will suddenly be the person who's got f 5,000 people that will. Okay, I may be exaggerating, but you know what I mean? You don't know who's talking to who along the and I actually find that's really lovely, and and you probably never will know. No, no.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

But it the way it passes on is just incredible. And also, Hayes, I was gonna say, I love uh when I Nancy guests you interviewed, and I have a look on your podcast, I think, oh wow, that's interesting. And I'd I'd I'll share a like or something, I'll listen to a like, and I get to follow them, they follow you back. So you get you're having relationships with these new authors coming in on the scene who you you've interviewed. So it it's you know, you feel immediately there's a connection there. You haven't found them randomly, you've found them through, you know, through you, through you putting this work out.

SPEAKER_03 53:53

Yeah, it's a fair point. Fair point in that. But yeah, I try to choose a guest, you know, reasonably carefully, you know, the kind of people that I think, you know, have got something to say and are interesting. And I'm always thinking now of who's been on before, meaning like what genres, and try to think about, right, I haven't got this, I need to find someone for this and stuff. But yeah, I mean I I I do for the most part enjoy it. I mean, yeah, I mean, you you mentioned the connections. I mean, for me, my my I want to say my Instagram's exploded. I don't mean it the way it sounds, it hasn't actually blown up. But I mean it's not I don't have like 10,000 fans or anything like that, but I do agree with what you're saying, Sarah. You know, less is more. It's not making lots of connections, it's making just enough that matter, and you you talk to them and you go, after a while, you you kind of bond. Like I had a guest on, I mean it was I mean it's episode 20, Hayden Croft. He's a screenwriter in LA, and we've really hit it off. And we're I'm reading his short story collection right now. We're chatting on threads and Instagram. And the uh today I was talking to the Swedish sci-fi author, Christopher, about the book, my next book that I want to write. And he's talking about his book. And yeah, it feels it feels human. I know like social media sometimes has a bad reputation because it's not, you know, it's digital, you're not meeting people in the flesh. But it definitely feels to me more substantial than that, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

You're right. We're all here, wouldn't have met otherwise. We may have met just by, you know, email, but having this is so much, so much better, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_02 55:41

It's inspiring, I think, as well, interacting with I mean in a way it's another version of the if you want to be inspired, you know, start keep reading, don't stop reading if you're writing. Exactly, exactly. And I think it's interacting with other writers is also it gives you energy, it inspires you. Uh, you know, you can end up kicking off of each other. I've done a few collaborations where you're uh taken to completely different places because you've worked with someone that you would never have thought of you'd work with before, or you've read something that you hadn't ever read before. I it's it gives for me that gives me energy and it gives me life, I think, as well. Absolutely alive.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Before the meeting, before us today, I was reading Anthony Araxu's poems, and I thought, wow, his work's really interesting. So again, you know, we keep connecting, and even reading your work, Sarah. Every time I look at artwork now, I go and see re-raffeless. I think, oh my god, Sarah, Sarah's blue. So I'm reminded because I've, you know, when you're reading other people's writing, it's like you've got this those people in your head, you've got their poetry in your head, which is lovely. And it fits into your own work.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

I guess it's back to somewhat to what Hayes was saying in terms of traveling, you know, and uh I don't travel a lot anymore because of my diabetes, and it can make it more complicated. But you can actually expand your that's the other way of expanding your world is through reading, which I used to do as a teenager when we never went anywhere, and I kind of came out of the habit as an adult, and I've started rereading a whole lot more fiction as well as poetry now, and it does, it it expands everything, I think.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

I agree, I agree. I'm in a reading group, and uh I'm finishing off reading the Book Thief, and again, the conversations I'll have with my reading group are really enlightening and inspiring, and just fiction takes me away. I can escape into that world from poetry sometimes, you know, which is disappearing and come back to poetry. It's so nice. I'd love to be able to write fiction, that's my fantasy life, and that would be my fantasy life.

SPEAKER_03 57:41

Yeah, for me too, like yeah, doing the podcast, I've always been a you know, very, you know, wide, like wide, I I read, you know, a wide range of books. But doing the podcast, even then, I've come into contact with so many different writers that you know I'm reading different books that I just wouldn't have been aware of, you know. And I find it's like it's it's not just interesting, I'm reading good books, you know. I'm reading at the moment, like you know, JM McGregor's Romanticy. I remember Sarah, remember we were talking about romantic in our podcast, and I'd read one traditionally published romantic book, I can't remember the author, and it is quite famous, but I didn't like it because the second half was just lovey dovey for hundreds of pages. But then I'm reading JM McGregor's book, and it's good, it's really good. I mean, I've only I'm only about a quarter of the way through, but it it it's it it's good and it it's it seems realistic, it it's well written, and that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I wouldn't have read that book, you know, without her coming on my podcast. It's also an interesting story. Normally, when I think about reading people's books, I download a sample from Amazon just to make sure that everything's okay with but, for example, there's not bad spelling mistakes or anything like that. Not that I think there would be, but when you're paying money, you you gotta think a bit. Anyway, her book was only 77 pence and I was like, it would I feel like it would cost me 77 pence in time spent if I was to download the sample, like it, then go back onto Amazon to then download the actual book. So I was like, you know what, 77p downloaded it, and you know, but it's also a great lesson about you know book pricing for online books as well.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

So I love Kindle. Um I know you can you can get three for the price of your coffee.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

You're right, you're right. You just gotta find time to read them, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 59:52

Yeah, I've got better. I put mine on read aloud because I walk. Oh and it's not it's I mean, obviously, if you do it properly through Audible, it costs you quite a bit to get the audiobooks. But when you just hit read aloud on on your Kindle, it's the same monotony kind of voice, but you've got the whole story there, and I can listen to it while I'm walking. So that's two hours reading.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

That's a good idea. And you don't realize you're walking, do you? Yeah, it's really nice. I listen to a lot of podcasts when I'm walking, and uh yes. Oh, we're always busy, aren't we? Everyone's got the earplugs in. Yes, and everyone walks around with the earplugs in, so they can be listening to podcasts all the time, I guess. That's the culture now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

My kids walk around the house with earphones in, or headphones, headphones and you know, the hidden. I'm like, okay, you weren't talking to me, you were talking to someone I don't know who, somewhere very far away.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

Oh yes, it is a different world. It's a different world. Uh I think I've been up, I've been up for dinner, I've been in restaurants, and I see the whole family's on their phone and all of their gadgets, but not many people are reading books as such. So when I see somebody reading a book on a tube or a bus, makes me smile. People ask, there are some people still reading physical books. I quite like physical books. I love physical books.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

I just they're double, we haven't got space. Our windowsills are all double depth books now. So, and poetry has to be. I can't I really can't do poetry on a Kindle. It just doesn't work. So poetry has to be, which means all my fiction pretty much has to therefore go in Kindle. If that makes sense. Absolutely, I'm similar. I'm similar.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Yeah, yeah. Because poetry, you can't do poetry, you can, but it's not the same. But fiction, I don't mind. Or library. I go to my local library, it's it's pretty well yeah, pretty good library, lots of good books, fairly current, so I go there often. How's your drive?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

Sorry, Hayes.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

Oh, it's okay, it's okay, carry on.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

No, I was just gonna say we've got a lovely library, it's quite small though. It's more of a community space, I feel, these days. I shouldn't say that, but so they'll hear this and they'll but you I I don't know whether the books I would want would certainly if I wanted any poetry ones, they would not I'd have to order them through, or I'd have to go into Worcester to get them, if that makes sense, rather than like local. But it's great community space. Our our writer's circle meets in the library. Completely free of charge.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

That's nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:19

I was going to ask as well, what are you guys like working on right now? What are you writing at the moment, or anything, or reading?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

I'm in a poetry group, so I'm not constantly writing, it's ongoing writing. I've got a bunch of poems I'm writing, finishing off, working on a short story, and I'm reading probably too many things at once. I'm reading fiction, I'm reading poetry, I'm reading non-fiction, so yes, I've got books all over the house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

Yeah, I've got three books on the go.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

That's quite normal. I've got lots on the go, but they're not going very much at the moment, if that makes sense. So there. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

I think that's the point.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

I'm there with you, Sarah. Yes. Slow Ubers. Yeah. Time just seems to disappear. I've got a lot of family stuff on at the moment, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Everything runs behind.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:09

Yeah, I'm just doing some editing at the moment. I've not I haven't when was the last time I wrote a poem? Probably a few months ago. I don't write poems all the time now. I typically I write a novel or edit a novel, and then in the downtime, which can be quite substantial sometimes, I will just focus on poetry. It might be writing, it might be editing, it might be a bit of both. Maybe towards maybe next month, I might try to like have a look at two or three sonnets and look at some of the I write like ideas down and see what I've got. I think the change in city will bring about another spurt in, you know, in in poems, to be honest, as well, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

Okay, imagine change of scenery's good sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:57

Yeah, it's tropical.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

Poetry's a good way of catching moment as well, isn't it? I think. Maybe in a way that a novel isn't. You need to all you can then use those or the notes from your from your poems for the background for a novel, kind of thing, almost. It's it's closer to a journal, isn't it, poetry, if you've but it just distills it. So instead of having to read back 30 pages to find out what it was like when you arrived, you've got one shorter, really condensed an espresso, so to speak, of of what it was like.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:27

That's a good way of putting it, actually. So too. I guess with each poem you can make that into a story, couldn't you? A short story.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

Yeah, well, a lot of my poems, uh as you saw from like made in channel, there is a bit of a narrative there. There's always that bit of a narrative. There's a story, something's happened. I want the reader to be aware of something that I I always say to people, I I've not written really any short stories. I think I've written like in my adult life, one. My short stories are my poetry, to be honest. That's where I was doing a lot of narrative and getting used to beginning, middle, and end, and thinking about how a poem starts, how a poem ends, you know, trying to make sure everything's in there. And when I started to write my my first novel, that's what I was thinking about. It's like, you've done this in a sonnet, it's just a long sonnet. And look at it like that. There was a lot of editing, I'll tell you. But it was kind of accurate, I thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:26

That's a good ex good way of putting it, actually, a long sonnet.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

It makes it feel more manageable, doesn't it? I said I'd never write a novel, but I started with the novel in Flash and then the novel. And it does build up that way. So you get your confidence, you get your but there's still all that, all your eggs are in one basket with a novel. Whereas if you've got poems, if one poem doesn't work, you just go on to the you can go on to the next and do more with the next, if that makes sense. And I'm saying Yeah, it's it's the time, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

It's interesting your time with it, okay, because Spend so much on a poem, so much time. But to spend that but on a novel, what would that take? I've had people say it takes them a decade sometimes, 12 years before they get a book out. So but some people have a time limit, don't they? They give themselves 12 months.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:13

Yeah. 12 months sounds about right. I I think J.K. Rowling when she was doing Harry Potter was I think it was one every two years. You know, and that'll include, you know, marketing, uh publishing events and stuff, and you know, I and she wrote, I think she still does write, 300 words a day, which is for a full-time writer's not not amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

But although isn't it, 300 words is like a short flash fiction.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:40

Yeah, it it's it's it it's one of those things where 300 words a day is a little the first few days. And as it would go on, I I'm pretty sure she would be editing as you went al along as well. So although I've not seen her say that, but as you get to the sixth month of you know you've done 300 words a day for six months, you probably started to feel like you would start to get tired, but you're getting things done. George Martin, who wrote Game of Thrones, also does 300 words a day as well. To make it very manageable. And because like Sarah said this earlier, you know, you know, obviously writing's also about reading. And as well as doing, say, 300 words a day, you're also maybe reading for an hour, maybe two hours. Maybe you have to respond to emails about a whole host of different things. Well suddenly that's like that could be three or four hours, even with just the 300 words. But then you have got some writers like Stephen King who write 2,000, 3,000 words a day easily, you know. It's it's all about the person. Do do I always say to people, just do what you feel comfortable with and that you can manage. There's no point doing 3,000 words a day and getting sick. You know, it it's self-defeating really finding what works for you, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

I mean, I have to say, if I was trying to do I like the idea of only having to do 300 words a day, and that makes it manageable to sit down, but I think the problem for me would be that actually I have to get into the world, and once I'm in the world, I don't want to go away from that world. If that makes sense. I'm much better with putting all of those into one day and doing not a lot on the other six days, doing all the other things that need doing on the other six days, and then having a big block or a bigger block of time and being able to get into the world and not feel that I've got to leave it. Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Absolutely, because you're because your energy's there and your the m the momentum's there. So once momentum gets going, that takes a while. You don't want to leave, do you? The kids can talk to me sometimes three or four times, and it's like sorry. Yeah. I know the worst thing is been disturbed when you're in there in the depth of writing.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:00

You need an on-air, an on-air sign. That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:05

Yeah. I mean, yeah, 300 words is not it's not a huge amount. I mean, I if I write 300 words in a day, that's that's kind of a low amount. I think my I think I worked out a few weeks ago what my average was, and I reckon my average was about 500 or 550, even about that. So sometimes I'll write 300, other times a thousand. And I try to time it and I try to write for an hour. And if I write 20 words, I write 20 words. If I write 2,000 words, which is not gonna happen, but that that's what I do. And yeah, you make a good point, Sarah, about you know, when you're in the world, you want to stay in the world. I I try to write a short chapter, or if it's a long chapter, half a chapter. But I find that like as you go along, like when you've when you write your first novel or first two or three, you just want to write it, write it, write it. But the longer you I go on, I'm like, I'm okay, I'll start writing now. It's okay. I'll pick it up tomorrow. The worst one for me is if I'm tired. Writing when you're tired is just when I say tired, I mean very tired. Yeah. Because or editing when you're very tired and you you're blinking, you know. Yeah, you know my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

Yeah, it's kind of a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:32

Because you're not, you're not, you need to be eagle-eyed, yeah. And you need to be really switched on and really like I want to say energetic, but also like kind of like your emotion, you're gonna be positive in your emotions so that you you're unafraid to change something that maybe needs changing, as opposed to, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, just change that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not gonna help. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:57

I think there's a lot to be said when you've got enough space to be able to control your time to actually sometimes like that. If I have that, I get I tend to get like that in the evening of going, actually, it's better if I stop now and get up an hour earlier in the morning. As long as it's not something I can't switch off from, as long as I can switch off that time, that half hour in the morning will do five times what I'm doing tonight. Possibly might actually do five times rather than taking me back five times, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

Absolutely. I find I'm the clearest in the morning, you know, that just headspace. Yeah. You haven't got much, you're not thinking about very much, you just wake up, I do go for a walk, have a cup of tea, and get into that mood. I want to see I mean that's uh the afternoon, it feels very different for me. I don't know about you.

unknown 1:11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

Afternoons and evenings. I don't really write evenings as whole. I can read. I can read in the evenings.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:46

Yeah, no, I'm very I think I'm probably very similar to you in that. Uh mornings are the fresh time. The brain's awake enough to do stuff. And I guess the world's new again every morning as well, which has got to feed into you into my writing more than if I'm at the end of the day and I'm going, oh my god, and I've got all these things that have happened today, feeding into how I feel, and therefore it's so true.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:08

The mornings are the best, and but also editing, you need a different head for editing than you do for writing poetry, I find. Because with the first draft, I can just get some ideas out. It's the editing that can really sharpen things up, or you know, and then making those decisions, what to live in, what to take out, which I still find challenging.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:26

Yeah, and the the setting it aside, I it's that there's that there's that horrible I'm in the zone uh excitement about a new poem where you want to just work on it, you want to just work on it, you want to do something with it, but then actually setting it aside for enough time for it to you've gotta let go of it, or I have, I've gotta let go of it for a certain amount of time. Uh and if I do that, then when I come back to the editing, it will be easier.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

But I've got to make myself do that first. We need to, we to because I want to kind of meddle with it more and I'll do more harm. I might destroy the first initial kind of instinctive words that come through. So I have to leave it alone, like you said. Sometimes the longer the better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it looks fresh, yeah. Different perspective.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:14

Yeah, I've been uh lately writing like all over the place. I think it's because of the school and the young kid. Like I'd been I wrote a novel in Texas going to school, coming back from school, but I can't do it again. Uh so I'm thinking about maybe I'll I've got to go to the new school and I've got to check, you know, what time do I need to wake up, what time do I get the school bus. But I'm thinking about waking up an hour earlier and or maybe 45 minutes and doing a 45 minute or an hour session. So that in the night time I I don't feel maybe I c I might need to do a bit of, you know, the podcast or something with the Instagram group instead of worrying about things need to get done and stuff. But yeah, my my my writing schedule's been all over the place, which is not good because normally I do prefer early in the one of the great things about age, learning to know when your energies are better for one thing than another.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:14

Although it only works when you when you can control what you do when. It doesn't work when you've got to get into a new school at a certain time and uh yeah. But the energy is just quite amazing. It amazes me how much different energy and why and why did I not know this? When I when I actually had more energy in my twenties and could have really fueled it to the right places, why did I just I know I feel the same, sir.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:39

I feel the same, but yes, we only learn by we only learn later, don't we? Yeah. In our twenties, we probably didn't want to know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:49

Well, maybe, I mean, you know, it's that old one. Were we were we too busy living, or we didn't have the time to sit and write about it. Yeah, it's always a balance, isn't it? Um and the same with your family with your family, Hayes. And I find that with family, you know, that there's that balance between I need to write, it is part of who I am. I do need to write for my own health, my own well-being, and for me to be a nicer person and a happier person to be around. But then you've got the other people that need time and attention for you. And how do you give them full attention and you're writing full attention when they're too in are in conflict sometimes? Comportalise.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:24

Complementalise. I know, I totally agree. No, no, I'm free, I'm free.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:31

And I go off. I have had the other time when I've said that, I've said that, and then actually it's not true. And I know, and I'm like, no, focus, focus. My but my brain will be ticking away on something that it's like. Well, I'm not the only one doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:47

I think I'm the same sailor, I think I'm the only one doing this. I think, oh my god, I'm not listening. This is terrible. I'm half listening to him because I want to get back to the writing. Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:58

Yeah, I did some editing recently actually on my computer in the like the school taxi, and I get the school taxi with my my young son, and I thought, yeah, I'll be okay. You'll he's just sleeping a bit or looking out the window, he'll be fine. And I tried to do some work, and he's just grabbing hold of it, trying to push it down, and I realised within like you know, a second, this isn't gonna work. I can get a bit of reading done, ironically, the Kindle, it doesn't seem to attract him the same, but yeah, it can definitely, you know, intrude a little bit, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:32

Wow, maybe he just wants all your full attention, Hayes.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

We've got a cat. Uh now we've the boys are growing up, it's not so bad with them, but we've got a cat now, and that's it. If she's on the keyboard, there is pointless me trying to do anything that I'm trying to do. She needs the attention she needs while she needs it. Otherwise, she will sit on the delete button. Oh my god, wow, she knows where that is. Sometimes the best editor, sometimes the worst editor.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:04

Oh uh I think we can end things there. It's been fantastic. It's all almost an hour and a half in. Love it. That's almost I think it's one of the longest we've done so far, but really enjoyed listening to you two all about the poems and the life. And it makes me miss you know being back in the UK and being part of the scene, I'll be honest, as well. So, but thank you so much for your um you know, your sharing your poems and of course your enthusiasm as well, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:34

Thank you both. It's been lovely. And Hayes, everything crossed on the coming back.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:39

Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:40

Thank you, Sarah. It's been lovely. It's been lovely chatting to you both. But yes, Hayes, maybe see you soon in the UK.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:45

Yeah, I'll keep you I'll keep in touch as well about the podcast. And normally it'll take a few days to edit and upload and stuff. But just yeah, thanks again for you know sharing your time and of course your expertise with me. It's been fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:59

You're welcome. Lovely to see you both.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:03

Bye everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye bye.