#31: How To Use What You Know To Write The Perfect Novel - Oliver Jensen

Want to know how to use your experience to write a novel that really kicks, but not sure how?

In this episode of 'What! The Heys,' Chester native Oliver Jensen, explains how you can use your experiences to improve your writing, particularly those that break your heart.

He also discusses the importance of his father reading to him when he was younger, and how Ernest Hemingway has had a considerable impact on his life and work.

Perfect for writers and lovers of literature everywhere.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello and welcome to another episode of What the Haze. I am your host, Hayes Wolfenden, and I'm here today with Oliver Jensen. Okay, welcome Oliver.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Yeah, I'm fantastic. How about you? So yeah, just oh, just first of all, uh, did I was it Jensen or Jensen? Have I completely messed that up?

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Jensen. It's okay. It's okay, Jensen.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

It's but you know, beforehand I was like tried to sing and it and I was getting it every time as Jensen. I don't know what I've done, Jensen. Anyway, I I don't know. But that's kind of funny anyway. But yeah, anyway, let's uh let's keep going. Yeah, so yeah, Oliver, yeah, tell me all about this. You've I believe you've written a book and I think you've sent it off to, and I'm not sure Ivy editor or the publisher. Like, what's the book about? What's the process? How's it all going for you?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

So the the publisher and I are currently wrinkling out, ironing out the wrinkles with the proofreading stage. So I'm in the last part of that. But the issue with that is I've gone through it, tidied it up, and then I've gone through it one last time, and as I'm going through it, I keep finding things that don't sit right, so I'm almost tempted to just give it one last polish. Because I rewrote sections of it oh five, six, seven, or eight times. So I'm at the point where the publisher and I are working together to finish it off, and then when it's finished, it will be, yeah, I'm just gonna send it and say, Right, I'm happy with this, let's just go, let's send it out, let's let's just get it out there. So I'm this close to uh to getting it done, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, that's the thing with with writing, especially if you're editing and if you've got deadlines as well, and it's like, how do you know or how do you feel when whatever you've written you know is finished, is ready. I think I think it's a hard one to kind of decide on. I think like you can definitely change too much, but then you can also change too little if you don't engage, you know, engage you know, engage with it, I suppose. Yeah, good luck with that. I'm gonna be fine. I I think it's one of those things, you know, as a writer, the more you do it, you just get used to it, to be honest. I was gonna ask as well, like what's the book about then?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

So it's it's called Stronger at the Broken Places, and it's it's a paraphrase of Hemingway's quote, you know, the world breaks every one of people the stronger at the broken places. And it's effectively a romanticized version of my my life. It's yeah, it's basically lessons that I've I've learned and things I've taken on as a human, even though I'm so relatively young, I've seen quite a few things and been to places. So what I've learned, like for example, when you when you're a kid, you think your dad is is the most tyrannical person on the planet, but as you get older, you sort of realise actually he broke his back for his entire life, so we were okay. That's in the book. And looking back, it's a very reflective book, and the protagonist Harrison tries to use what he has been through and learnt to to make sure he doesn't repeat the same mistakes, but sadly he does because he has too much faith in people and always wants to see or or you know wants to be convinced that the world is beautiful, good, and people are, and they are, but he does fall into the occasional trap of naivety, and then he comes out all sore and bruised and and you know boisterous and a bit upset about things, and he has to keep trying to remind himself that sadly not everything is as bright and colourful as we hope it would be, but there is beauty to be found, of course, everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah, sure. It sounds like an interesting book. I'd definitely love to read it. I was gonna ask as well, like so what like motivated you to do this? Like, why, like it sounds almost like a like a fictionalized autobiography or a memoir. What made you want to write this? Like, was the reason why you wanted to reflect on your time in London?

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Well, yeah, so I I it sounds weird. You hit certain levels, certain stages of life, certain ages, and then when you when you reach them, you are mature enough to read different books or appreciate different or foods, or like when you're a kid, you can appreciate vegetables when you're 18 with your chicken kind of thing. So I got to the point and I thought I just want to write down what I have been through to try and make sense of it. So, or experienced as well. So I left London, came back up north, and I thought I'm gonna start, well, I've started writing it in London. I wrote 6,000 words on my phone, and yeah, it was a nightmare on notes, and so I I continue that up north, and I don't know, it it sounds bizarre, but I I kind of want I kind of needed it to help me work through things that I was experiencing. Also, I do have a a son, so I do want to leave something behind for him. So with my publisher, Austin Macaulay, they they've already given it an ISBN number and all this. This is all brand new to me, by the way. So there'll there'll be a an in a permanent sort of copy of my book in the British Library, so when he's older, you know what I mean? Something for your for your little one to be like, yeah, that's my dad, great. But I just I yeah, I wrote it so I could get get through to well, I wrote it so I could understand, you know, what I've done, what I've been through, what I've seen, and just just process it. And and that's how it started.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Yeah, I think probably a lot of writers are like that to some degree. I mean, I wrote my Jack Strong books, the first book in particular. I was really like processing some of the things that happened to me at school in particular, and it was like it wasn't I wasn't I wouldn't say that it was bothering me at the time. But yet it must have bothered me to, you know, to write it. I wrote it in a very kind of yeah, in a reflective way, and I think it kind of helped me deal with those issues, so I just moved on from them, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it sounds really cool. I was gonna ask as well, what for the for the book, what are the themes in your book?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

So it's funny you mentioned school, though the first chapter is it's it's very similar to my early teenage years with my best friend. So it's called it's called Second Families, something like that. So it's about a family that sort of adopted me when I was young and I was getting bullied at school, had no friends, great family, by the way. Great family. They are the the salt of the earth. And how I became lifelong friends with one of the well, with their son, and in school we genuinely fought side by side because we would have you know bullies sort of throwing stuff at us, and there's this I won't spoil it, there's a whole sort of battle scene, and I overdra you know dramatize it, and I compare myself to Leonidas, you know. And yeah, so so that that is sort of like it's a young man trying to figure out the world uh as he goes along. So I talk about stumbling into my teenage years and adult years or Harrison's adult years, trying to catch my breath or his breath. So it's it's all like catching up constantly, and then wanting to get away, go to London, um, meeting this beautiful news reporter and and having a relationship with her, which is how Harrison or I ended up in South Africa, and all while not having a clue of how to do any of it, figuring out everything as I go, and ultimately we find him reflecting, and there's a beach in in North Wales. He stood on this sort of cliff edge, it's a chill, okay, chilly October day, cloudy. He's the only one on the beach, and he's he's there for a good six hours, just you know, that thousand-yard stair, and just thinking about where things went wrong and why he couldn't fix them. So it's a a self-discovery kind of journey for him, you know?

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, sure. Yeah, like I said, I'm really really looking forward to reading it actually. Sounds like really up you know up my alley, really. You mentioned earlier about liking Hemingway, and I mean I'm I'm a huge, huge fan of Hemingway as well, and I mean certainly his books. I mean, God, I I've read like several of his novels. The Sun also Rises. Like is I mean his first novel. I think that's his best one. I've read it twice. And I was disappointed that the first time I read it, and like, you know, Hemingway is great at showing, right? And but he shows to such a degree that sometimes you just don't get things, you know. And a German friend of mine had just finished a book as well, and he said, Oh yeah, you know, uh, you know, he he has this problem down below because of war wound. I was like, no, that was well over my head, over my head, and like it's weird because I read it, I read it the second time, and it's like, yeah, this is so obvious, but it's because I knew, and it was like, but but I don't mind that. That's what I like about Hemingway. I kind of didn't mind the fact that it went over my head, you know, because some readers understandably might go, hey, I feel cheated. This is too difficult for me to access. But I don't know. I I think the sun also rises. If anyone out there listening, for showing, not telling, the sun also rises for me is the number one. Like it's that good. And you know, I was thinking before this podcast actually about again, she's talking about showing, not telling, but like in that book, Hemingway does a good job of telling. At the start of the book, I forgot the name of the I want to call him the antagonist, he's not really an antagonist, the guy that's the American boxer, and and everybody laughs at him and bullies him and stuff, and in the end, he he punches the main character just one time, and the main character just falls down and just collapses. And it's like at the start of the novel, Hemingway is at pain. I think he takes two or three pages to tell you that this guy's an amateur boxer and he might be a bit of a loser, but you've got to take him seriously because he's an amateur boxer, and like it and it's right at the end that that pays off, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Well, with Hemingway, a lot of people are convinced that every sentence he writes is four words, and not everything he's very concise, he gets to the point, but some things are he does explain because when I read Midnight in Paris, they were long-ish sentences, but I could visualise everything he was writing because he's a great writer. But like you said, he does want to inform the reader of the situation, like um The Snows of Kilimanjaro, I think is the one, where it opens up on a young man, and I might be wrong with the book by the way, so I'm sorry if I am. But he's in a tent in the middle of Africa, and he's you know slowly dying from this gangrenous wound on his leg, and it's a load of description with that, and his backstory of how he pursues wealthy older women all the time. And Hemingway goes into a lot of detail about this, and it's fascinating, and he really makes you feel the character's pain. And I found that very interesting uh with his writing. Yeah, great writer, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Yeah, I thought about the snows of Kilimanjaro. It's it's a short story, I think it's about 30 pages of a tape, and there's lots of the when the guy's here, he's dying on, you know, uh I think it's on Best Lobos to Kilimanjaro or something like that. He's reminiscing on his time and all the different things he's lived through. And there's so much in there. It's like a it's like a novel in a short story. For me, it's the best short story I've ever read, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

I I I I think I'd say so. And I'm trying to think just off the top of my head. I mean, the Shirley Jackson's a lottery, which is really I still I'd still say snores of Kilimanjaro. Because it's just so much in it.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the first time I read The Old Man and the Sea, I was astounded, you know. But I only read that because I watched Midnight in Paris, great film, and there's this, you know, rugged Hemingway drinking wine and and all that in the bar, and I thought, oh, okay, I'll start reading, I'll give it a go. And it completely changed the way I see the world, the uh the book. Absolutely. Yeah. He's definitely w one of the few writers I'd happily sit down and take my time to read.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah, for me as well, he's one of those writers I wish I could meet him as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

You know, whether it's whether it's like go to heaven for a day or go back in time, you know, spend a day with him in Paris or something like that. You know, he he's he was so good, such a good rider. I mean, somewhere he I mean I love using like similars, and he he doesn't use similars. And it's just kind of strange that I really like him, but yeah, he's you know, for like a what I would call a modern, a modern rider, he he's really good at using experience. Um something you touched on before as well, about obviously going to London and then going to South Africa and like how the experience, how it affects you, which I think is huge. I was gonna say as well, going back to what you were talking about, you know, obviously about your book and about like you reflecting on your experiences and like I think it's a problem today where maybe once you hit 1415, it seems like you're on this like slit stream through life. You know, I remember I started university at 18. Before you know it, I'm graduating and and trying to what am I doing in my life? Well, I I need a job, can't get a job, get a job, it's not the job I want, trying to get a better job, can't and a lot of people are in the same situation, I think. So I I I think your book will really, you know, really, you know, like home, I think, to some people, I would say, because yeah, sometimes you you don't know what's happening before you know it, you're in South Africa, you're in China, you're somewhere else, and you're absolutely still yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

I was gonna say as well, but that's in my in my book. It's like you're a kid, you're a teenager, you're early 20s, you're drinking your party and you're getting your heart broken, and then you're in your 30s and 40s, and you're like, hang on a second, well, where's it gone? I mean, somebody said that adulthood is like being pushed down the stairs and trying to catch your feet along the way, you know?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a fair point to me, to be honest. Fair way of putting it. Like, because like when I was younger, when I was a young kid, I'd look at my dad and my mum, and they seemed like they had it all. When I say had it all, I mean like they they they understood life, they were they were adults. They're grown, they'd grown old, they knew, they were responsible, they knew what to do. But when you get to their age, I still feel in my heart like I'm 23, 24. You know, and I still kind of feel like like I'm I'm 48. I don't feel 48. I feel early 20s, at least in terms of my experience sometimes, you know. You know, just a little bit, it's hard to explain. And like, but yet you the older you get, you've gotta, you know, be responsible for your life. Once you hit your 40s, you start thinking about retirement, even though this is it's crazy because like you know, retirement for me might still be 20 years away, but you have to plan for it, and you have to, and it it it it it's a bit crazy like that, to be honest. So I'm coughing a bit here. I've had a bit of a cold all week, to be honest. Yeah, so yeah, I I think yeah, I think it it's interesting about reflecting upon your experiences, your life, and then of course putting it into a novel. Yeah, flicking back to Hemingway, like how has he like has he impacted on your writing at all in particular?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Some of my well, quite a bit of my writing is direct. It's because I I tried to write about things that I didn't really know initially, and Hemingway said, write what you know. So, you know, the whole final chapter of of the book it or the whole book really is what I know. Um because people catch on pretty quick if you write about something that you don't know. Like if I wrote about you know going on tour with I don't know, Queen or something, people know obviously. So he he's made me be honest in my writing, and so I think it's very important because it's authentic. He's helped me to be more concise with my writing and on occasion a bit blunt, but not in a harsh way. So I think, yeah, he's and he's he's changed my perspective on the world and looking at his life and all that kind of thing gives me courage and it gives me courage to write and it gives me courage to try and get the book out there. So yeah, he's he's had it he's had quite an impact on me, I think.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, one of the ways he's had an impact on me is I'm not sure. Have you read his I think it's like a memoir, uh movable feasts? Yeah, Paris, yeah. Yeah, in Paris. And he obviously it's about 200 pages long, but the bit I remember is where he says that, like about he talks about how many words should you write a day, and he says that he finds it difficult sometimes to write a paragraph, and he means like he he means he sat in a coffee shop all day. And for him, I know some of his paragraphs are long, but he means four or five, six sentences, and what I get from that is sometimes writing is hard for many reasons. It might be your ideas are faulty, you you can't as in you can't think about what to write. You might be tired, which is uh for me often the case. You might be sick, for example. I always think of Hemingway in these moments, and I just got right, shrink your goals. Just write a sentence, just do two. And most of the time I write more. And I said to anyone, most of the time you write more. You just allow yourself to just sometimes it is okay. You you've done a lot of writing. It's okay to just just you know, shrink your goals a little bit and just remember that you know, writing is it is chiseling away, and it can be hard, and it's okay if it's hard at times, I would say. And yeah, you mentioned about Hemingway, yeah, the the the brevity. I think for me as well, it's he's an experienced writer, and and I'm an experienced writer too. I mean, I I do like like genre fiction, don't get me wrong, but a lot of the characters base upon myself or people that I've met on my travels, I've written poetry all about China, and I'm always thinking about yeah, I think of Hemingway and I think of George Orwell as well. And I'm like, I try to, I wouldn't say if I say I base myself on them. That's a bit egotistical. I don't mean it quite like that. I mean like, yeah, I I like the idea that I have experiences and I either write about them directly or they have they they filter into my works, is maybe a better way of putting it. So yeah, I mean Hemingway. What's your favourite Hemingway book?

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Let me a bit generic and say the old man and the sea, because being a a young man, I think that's quite an important book for everyone, but mainly, you know, because he's this old chap and he's trying to prove himself and he thinks back on when he was young and strong and arm wrestling and you know, and it's the resilience. And even though, spoiler alert, at the end he doesn't get what he wants, he he still accepts it and he's like, Right, I'm just gonna go to bed and try again, you know. So that one resonated with me in a big, big way, and yeah, it it's mint a moveable feast was also incredible. You know, how like you said, he he wrote in cafes, there was one part where he ordered a beer and I think some oyster. Or whatever it was, and he's writing and he looks up and he he sees this beautiful young woman and he pictures his life with her and he says to himself, Oh, I hope whoever she's with really loves her and appreciates her, and he ducks down again and he writes, and it's a steamy warmlit cafe, and it's very, very romantic. But all of this while he was dirt poor, and it's just incredible, and how he talks about he deliberately didn't eat so that his mind was clearer, and it's just all of it, yeah, incredible. It really is.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah, for me, my favorite. I I think it will have to be The Sun also Rises, because I read it twice, and the first time I read it, I I liked the bit in Spain a lot more than the bit in France, like completely the same. But then when I read it the second time, it was like how I was almost reading a different book. I read it the second time, and the bits in France that I didn't like before, they were fantastic. And I and to this day, I I can't tell you why. I I was I tired when I read it the first time. I don't, it's almost like a different book. Like it's very strange. So I'd probably say that book, but you know, The Old Man and the Sea, like there's so many good bits. Like The Lions, you know, is dreaming of the lions and like the lions reviewed, but it's the great way to end it at the end. What did he say? Is it the end? Spoiler alone, isn't it? The lions, the lions were roaring by the beach again, or something, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

It was just it was just heartbreaking because I guess it's a maybe a metaphor because when he catches this massive marlin and he sails back to the beach, which by the way, in the book, because this marlin, it's almost as though the universe is testing the old man to see if really wants it. So he's holding on to this rope and his hands are you know getting cut up, and he takes him way out until the beach and the coast are like little twinkling stars in the distance. And as he makes his way back, this marlin's hanging up, and the sharks come along and they take chunks out of it, chunks out of it, chunks out of it. And by the time he gets to the beach, it's just bones. And you know, it's almost as though, oh great, I've I've I've won, I've done what I can, but at the end it didn't work out, and it was so upsetting because the young boy that helped him, you know, wanted to cry but didn't cry. And yeah, and all the people are like, Oh my gosh, that's oh nobody's ever caught one this big, but it's hollow because it's not the proper fish, kind of thing. But the ending was very heartbreaking, yeah, crikey.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, yeah, very, very but the good thing about the book is like he he lives to fish another day, so to speak. And I I and I I mean his relationship with the boy seems like it's strengthened as well. Um, and I think his knowledge of himself, and and I think he gets respect from the villagers as well. But yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's brutal, you know. And one of the things I remember as well is the sentence structures, you know, like these long-on sentences, but it he he nails it every time. Do you know what one of my theories by the way about the butt is that you know you mentioned about the arm wrestling scene. For me, I think that it's exaggerated. I think that in his mind, yeah, I I arm wrestled all day, and I'm reading that and I'm like, I don't think you did. I think it's just like because I I I think I do the same thing. Like as you get older and you think about your past, especially your youth, you tend to exaggerate maybe how big things were or how impressive things were, that kind of thing. I think this but I love it. I and I think that's all showing not tell.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

We we all do, we all do. And I if I speak to a younger chap that's 21, and I'm 34, by the way, and they go, I'm 20, and I'm like, oh, you've got so much time to do things. And I if I was your rage and if I had your energy, or the things I'd do, and I never did when I was younger, you know, we just partied and and went out and did silly things and you know, drove our cars around and whatever. We never was it was it Mark Twain that said youth is wasted on the young, you know? That sounds about right.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

I think it's because when Carol.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

No, go on, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, I was just gonna say I was thinking about this like recently. I think when when you're younger, in maybe early twenties, you know, all you're thinking about is socializing, making friends, or maintaining friendships, or dating. When I was that that's all I all I was concerned about. That's what most of us are concerned about. Yeah, and every and again you might w follow the latest TV program. But the latest TV program, you're watching that not necessarily because it's good, it's because other people like it at school, for example. And you've got that thing to talk about. And as you get older, you start to learn that there's other things in life. As I've got older, say like late 30s, early 40s, you know, got more into history. Now I'm in more into like animals, and I've got the app on my phone, and I go around Chengdu taking photos of birds and trying to identify. I wouldn't have done that when I was 16. Yeah. And and and and I wasn't wrong when I was 16 to think that. It's just that when you're that age, that's what's important because maybe it is important. I don't know. It's just I know you mean if I could I thought about this recently. If I could go back to myself when I was single, I'd tell myself, don't worry about it. You'll meet someone when you're single. Don't be self-conscious about being single, just enjoy your life. Don't travel it. Don't just enjoy it. That's what I would say. And I say that to anyone that's single now. Oh as long as you're meeting people, as long as you you know you're meeting people and stuff, you'll be fine.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

I say that. I'm like, if I meet a younger chap and I say, stay single, you know. I I always say they go, who? I say Reed Hemingway, and they go, Who's that? I said, Oh, let me tell you, you know, but then I'm such an old man with it. But then it's like I say to them, travel, mainly travel, you know, travel, and when you travel, just go somewhere that's off the beaten track. And and if you order food, by the way, if you order food somewhere, when I went to Rome, you know, I went three times. When I went to Rome and the waiter said, What do you want? I say, You order for me. You you pick what you think I should have, and just see the world and see see things and experience things and get your heart broken, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, I think, yeah, totally agree, to be honest. I was giving advice to my young nephew. I say young, he was like he's like 22, and I said to him, I know you you love going on a holiday with your mates, like the lad's holiday. You want to do like independent travel because it doesn't matter where you go to, even if it's just for a few days, it doesn't have to be like six months backpacking. When I was in my twenties, I went to Switzerland and France and Ireland a few times, just for a little bit, not not a long time each one, maybe a week each one. But I went like on my own and I went on buses and trains and planes, and I was terrified of like getting things wrong. And but when you when you solve problems, you feel really good about yourself, and I think it then makes you able to take on more risk further down the line. My nephew did look at me like I was completely crazy by someone, but I I do because like I I went to Korea and then China in my early 30s, and I look back now, and I think it was because I probably was able to do that because I'd done the independent travel, and I was a bit more willing than I realized at the time to take on a bit of risk, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Well, yeah, and you you make friends, you make loads of different, you know, acquaintances and friends. If you go on your own, you people come up to you or people take care of you, especially in Italy, they're great for that. And you make you make so you make you're not tied down to like to a plan or itinerary. You're you're free. Do whatever you want, get up whenever you want, get up as early as you want, go and see things. You know, like when I went to Rome, I went on my own, Coliseum tour, met some Americans and had lunch with them. It was great, it's great time. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Fantastic. So, are there any other like writers that have inspired you at all or the or just that you really like?

SPEAKER_00 31:25

So, when I was 12, 13, I read so my father had this great big Lord of the Rings book with all three books in, and it had all the languages and maps in. And I read that, I loved it. I didn't understand much of it, but it was the adventure. I loved reading Conan Doyle, I loved Sherlock Holmes, loved it. Yeah, I mean Harry Potter's one of the things everybody loves and reads and stuff, but it's it's them mainly. But then when I got older and started chefing, I read Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential. I would highly recommend that to anybody, even if you've never worked in a professional kitchen. It is an incredible read and it's like poetry. So they they have not necessarily influenced my writing, but they have been, you know, my comfort zone, my safety zone, and yeah, I l I I I respect, especially people like Tolkien, that can come up with his own languages and and stuff like that. But but yeah, very good writers, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yeah, talking. I mean I've read I've read The Lord of the Rings, I don't know, two or three times. The Hobbit, even more. The Hobbit is one of my favourite books. With the Silmarillion as well, but I need I maybe I should read the Silmarillion again though, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Well, I struggled with that once because I was only 13, and I was it was a it's a heavy book. And I I struggled with that, but it I need to re-retry the book, you know, and see how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yeah, it it it's it it the some of the the details in it are just like wow. But again, I maybe I should reread it. I don't know. But like I I think I've read The Hobbit too many times now. I've read about four times, and like there's no no new reading is gonna like highlight anything, but it's a fantastic novel. The Lord of the Rings, like The Lord of the Rings is just a classic, an absolute classic.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

With the with The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, it's it's like I love how Bilbo Baggins just wants his cup of tea, his you know, second breakfast, and just wants to smoke his pipe and be left alone in his garden. Well, not that more. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I just I just want my my cup of tea and a cozy chair and some flowers, and I'd be very happy. I get it, I really do.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

And they all just go to the pub. They all just go to the pub, drink loads of beers, they all seem to have lots of food everywhere. Smoking outside, they're looking out at this like, you know, you know, this beautiful nature. Like good lights. That's what we all like.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah. That's what we aspire to.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah, so obviously you're a new writer and and stuff, and you've read a bit of Hemingway. Do you have any tips for like any new writers or any writer out there that wants to start writing their own novel?

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Oh dear. I'd say research. I'd say what you're passionate about. And you you're not there to you're not here to write a a you know New York Times bestseller. When I wrote my book, I wanted to get out everything that was in my head. So I did. And it turns out that three publishers wanted it, and and I took one of them and I thought, great, fine. But it was it was purely to to just be like, right, I've written this, written my book. I'd say if you're young, go and get your heart broken, you know, either by by life or or somebody, because it you know, there will be parts of your life that that will hurt, and then you'll you'll learn to heal, and when you heal, you'll you'll be a better person for it. Experience things if you want to write about America, go to America, even though it's not cheap, and I know this. And just like Hemiway said, just write write what you know and write one true sentence. And and you know, just make it about you, not about what you think people want to read or what they want to see. Just be as honest as you can when you're writing, and then when you go through it again, you can tidy it, tidy it up, that's fine. But just start writing, you know? That's all you have to do is just to start writing and and write what you know about.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yeah, completely agree. I think you know, for certainly for writing, just write. You it sounds really simplistic, but you figure lots of things out. Once you start writing, your brain really kicks in as well. And I think probably quite naturally you want to read as well while you're doing it. Uh you were talking about research. I know that for your next book, you're gonna go, you're gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

I'm sure are you going to South Africa or to Africa and I'm going to Arusha, so it's just it's about a 60-minute drive from the Serengeti. Right. So, yeah, so I watched Out of Africa with Meryl Streep recently. I highly recommend. Oh my gosh. And I thought, yeah, I'm I'm I'm desperate to go back. So I thought, right, while I'm waiting for this book to go out in in into the public, I'll start my second book. So yeah, I'm I'm going to Arusha for 10 days, and I'm just gonna immerse myself in the culture and the the animals and the you know, all that kind of stuff, because Africa, the whole continent, is just absolutely beautiful. I mean it's not always safe, but life without a bit of risk or a bit of danger, you know, is is something that I can't picture myself having uh that kind of life. But yeah, I'm going to go to to yeah, to uh Tanzania, I think that's Tanzania. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

What are you gonna do when you're there? Is it like are you doing like a safari tour or something or uh or backpacking or a bit above?

SPEAKER_00 37:32

So there's a five-day safari and you stay in tented camps and then a couple of like permanent standing ones, but the tented camps, they they don't have any any walls or fences, so it's just it's you and the lions, you know. So it's like crikey. But it's you see different things, you see a crater, I'm I'm not sure what it's what it's called, and then you can get a drive a driver to take you to the base of Kilimanjaro, so I need to do that. And yeah, I just need to see it. Absolutely desperate to see it again. I don't know why Africa's calling me, but I need to go.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yeah, fair enough. I've been to Canada a few times. Every now and again I hear it calling me as well. But like I'm married with a young kid, and I can't really go right now, but like maybe in a few years, like I do kind of plan a trip there. I'm a bit like that in Nepal as well, like kind of cogs to me as well. Vietnam cogs to me as well. I was gonna say about Africa and staying in tented camps. I once saw a video, no, don't know, don't line me, and it was like someone has filmed it, and nothing bad happened in the end. But like they woke up in the morning and there's a there was in a tent, the lion outside, the female lion, licking the like the the the dew, the moisture off the tent. And you're like, whoa. But uh my my dad so my dad's been to I'm not sure no, my dad's been to Kenya, and he's he's done tented camps, but he said that they had like a Maasai warrior outside the tent, and they they say like they give like like a cold word, like traffic's busy or something like that, which means the wildlife's coming through don't come out, you know. So I don't know if there's something similar in Tanzania. Yeah, but like if that was me, I find it I wouldn't come out of my tent, but I'd want to have a peek.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

I'd want I'd gotta I'd gotta I gotta know, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Well, I mean, I I did something very silly a few years ago. So on my second safari, I'm with my ex-partner and her family, and her hat flew off in into the bush or whatever. Anyway, so I I said to the guide, I said, Can I go and get it? And she was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so five minutes before that, we'd seen, because they're expert hunters, we'd seen about seven lionesses pop their heads up out of the grass, stalking some wildebeests or whatever it was. I jumped out the van, right? And I swear to god, luckily the hat was next to the van. I've never jumped back in a car so fast in my entire life, honestly. But it's like, you know, it's it's a bit of a rush, it's a bit of fun, yeah, very dangerous. But you do have to be like push the push the boat out a little bit, you know. And the lionesses, you know, licking the tent. I mean, they're the hunters of the group, so they're always looking for for food for their babies. So I'd I'd sort of like, yeah, like yourself, I I would observe from a distance, but it's gonna be fascinating. I can't wait, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

I I don't blame you. I I mentioned I went to Nepal and I was just doing I did a wildlife tour there. I mean the whole country's like a wildlife tour. You you can just walk down the street and you'll see stuff, but like there's a place there, it's like like Indian like safari, and like you're seeing like elephants and rhinos and crocodiles. And we were doing this when we went there, I think it was the first night or first evening or first like late afternoon, and we went on a guided walk next to like the national park, something like that. So we're going in the bush, we're in the bush. And it it's it's supposed to be safe or controlled safe. But we were giving these odds, it was like, oh, there's there's 200 tigers in the park, there's 400 rhinos, and I'm like, wait, I've just seen two rhinos. I I've seen two rhinos. The chances of me seeing a tiger pretty high. You know, it's pretty a lot. I should be able to see one. There's crocodiles everywhere, you know. I'd seen like I'd seen one of the only two wild elephants in the pole. And so we're walking, I was tricking it. We get to this clean with this huge tree, I don't know what it is, like a gum tree or whatever, rubber tree. And there are these huge, like claw marks, like like it being done by a team. Yeah. So I tigers, like, you know, I don't know, I have a marking territory or just scrape the claws. I almost melted with fear. And I was like, when the guide said time to go back, because there's a these places just curfews, it's like 10 p.m. But I was just like, yep, right, let's go. Because I think if you if you were there at night, you're dead. Oh yeah. Like you're dead. Because I've heard as well now that that park, because like the you know, they're trying to kind of get the animals to you know to come back and you know restore them, it's really successful. There's more tigers and four, more yeah, all that kind of thing. Yeah, but like it's it's dangerous. But yeah, I was in Canada once and I saw a grizzly bear in the wild. And there was no I was walking down a road and I was looking up. If you look where I'm going, up up the slope was like the tree, like a slope and trees. Maybe after about 30 minutes, I looked up and this is really like peed off grizzly bear just looking at me. It must it's a high, but it was it was on the slope. It was on on the slope. If it was by the side of the road, I was a dead man. Yeah. Dead man dead man. And I didn't like you know people say, Oh, you you shake from fear. I melted. I just it because it's like, oh yeah, I want to see a grizzly bear. It's like it's a dream, it's not real, it's fantasy. And when you see one and you realise you're like your stupid hiking pole may as well be a can of color or whatever. And so I I I started walking quick quickly, and then I was like, tell myself, you don't do that. And I turned around and I expected to see the bear coming after me. And it wasn't and it wasn't there. It wasn't there. And I carried on walking. And it's just like I've played that back. Those cars. What if I jumped? What if it came after me? And what if I jumped on the car and I was like, nah, still got off that car somewhere. Um that was yeah, that was pretty lucky. Pretty lucky. You know, but these but these things, you know, I don't know. I I when I'm in China at the moment, I do try to kind of find and locate experiences with wildlife. Now, in China it's pretty difficult to meet something that's really dangerous, or even a little bit dangerous. I mean, I I just try to look at exotic things. I've been out this afternoon and I saw like six squirrels, which it doesn't sound like a lot for China, because a lot of them almost went extinct because of like from the past. So it's like wow. But they're obviously not going to attack me. And they're you know, they're pretty tame.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Yeah. Um you never know. You never know.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

But I have seen a I've seen a wolf in China. This is going back a few years. It was huge. He was he was huge. And it just somebody like I was hiking with a hiking group and they pointed at it because I hadn't seen it. And I'm like, my god, that's a wolf. And it was huge.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

And it just looked at well, it just ran away. Like a border collie running through snow. But it wasn't a board cloak, it was huge.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Yeah, they're meant to be massive. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Absolutely. So go, yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

No, go on.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

No, no, come on, come on.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

No, it's just interesting to to have these experiences, to see different things, you know, to be in in hairy situations, and we all think that we're we're gonna be James Bond in that situation, you know, a zip line down down a bunch of trees or or tuck and roll, or like you said, jump on a car, but in reality, we're just gonna we're just gonna melt. We're gonna stand there and be like, okay, fine. I can't run, I'll just take I'll just accept my fate. And yeah. But it's uh animals can read energy pretty well, I think, you know. Especially elephants, they're very, very wise, very intelligent creatures. But yeah, experiences like that are very important, I think.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Yeah, I was gonna ask you about going to Africa. Are you like what kind of book are you planning to write? Have you got the plot like mapped out? And how are you I know you're going through research, are you gonna like take a notebook or like do things like video diaries? Like, how would you like do that?

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Notebook. Notebook, definitely a notebook. I obviously take videos and pictures. And I don't know. It's either gonna be maybe a like a a sort of love story that doesn't work out, or it's gonna be I don't know. I don't know where my mind will take me and what it'll do and how it will, you know, translate things for the book. So I I'm just excited to get out there and things I see, things that come into my head, I'll write them down straight away. And then yeah, and then we'll see when I come back, I'll be like, right, and just start writing it. And then we'll see how it develops over sort of 12 months, and then hopefully it becomes a book.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yes, that is fantastic. Yeah, so how long would you normally take to write a book then? Is it about 12 months, or do you is it like six months for writing and like six months for editing?

SPEAKER_00 48:11

The editing so far has taken four months. The writing itself was about a year, but it was almost every day, even after work. I'd come in from a you know 12 hour shift in the kitchen and I'd start writing. I'd get up early the next day on my day off, and I'd go to a cafe and start writing. So it was like three, four hours a day of writing, even if I was working double shifts. Or if something came into my head, I'd I'd get my phone out and write it in my notes, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Yeah, that's it. I mean, like if you're doing a 12-hour shift and then come home. Or don't come home, go to a coffee shop and just boom start writing. That's hard. But yeah, I admire you know, for doing that. I think that's the kind of level of practice you need. I mean, to be fair, like I've lately, by necessity, I've been like writing in taxes, like especially after like a 12-hour day. 12 hours constantly working, but 12 hours of you know, getting up, going to school, doing the you know, doing the teaching and stuff, coming back in the taxi and just this is my time. I'm knackered, I don't care. This is my time, and you it does work. You it does work.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Yeah, it does, it gives you a bit of hope. It keeps you going, you know. I think I think it's important. It kept me going anyway. It kept me hopeful that I'd be finished with my book, and yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Yeah, the easiest thing in the world is just to give up, you know. You know, and just do the nine to five and the mundane. The hardest thing is to to dream and to actively work towards the dream, I think, to be honest. So great for you, I gotta say. So I'm gonna drink a bit more water.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Are you fine?

SPEAKER_01 50:06

It's been a very annoying cold. I'm actually getting better now.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

It's one of those they never go away for some reason. As you get older, it just sticks around, you know. But uh, yeah, it's uh yeah, but you know, I I don't take medicine if I don't have to, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

I'll uh yeah. God, I'm the same these days as well.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Um if I'm dying, yeah, fine. I'll take something, I'll take I'll take Lem SIP, but I'm not gonna, you know, that's about it.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

I'm the same. Lem sip, and maybe the odd parasitum more, but I I I don't mind taking it, but I try not to take too much. Like what if it's really bad, one lem sip. That's that's all I really try to do. It does say you can have like three per 24 hours, which I think is a bit much.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah, quite a lot, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

And like these days, paracetamol, I just take one. I wouldn't take two. Like back in the day, you know. I was gonna ask you as well, uh, I think at the moment around the world, especially in the English speaking world, the amount of like, you know, young readers is dropping. People aren't reading books like they used to. No. How do you think we can get young people to, you know, read more books?

SPEAKER_00 51:31

So they're reading mainly if like they said if they're reading it all, they're reading fantasy, which is great, there's nothing wrong with fantasy, but they tend to miss out on the classics because they've been told that the writers of those classics are no good and they don't deserve your time of day. So I would say because you can't write a book, give it a title, and then expect young people to read it, but I do think the culture in in schools maybe, or or at homes, there's no my father, and I'm eternally grateful for for what he did for me when I was a kid, he would read to me every night. Every night he'd come in and he'd read Lord of the Rings or he'd read something else, and it's one of the best gifts he's ever given me because that pushed me to read. So I think the the culture or the the maybe status quo, I don't know, in in homes with young children should be reading every day to your your kids, whatever it is, you know. My father used to tell me stories, to make up stories about dragons and knights and all that. Oh, it's amazing. And and I like that helped me with my imagination. And that's one thing that's that's missing these days with with with social media and all this kind of stuff, you know, they're not given that that sort of Indiana Jones kind of last crusade vibe or or sort of when I was a kid, I wanted to be either James Bond, a sheriff, or Indiana Jones because it was there, or I wanted to go back in time because of back to the future. So I think I think the conversation needs needs to be had of parents and what they show and what they what they read to their kids, like 80s movies and classic books, start them young, and then as they get older, they'll be more appreciative of things and the classics, like the classics, like the never-ending story or whatever else you want to watch. But also, people are very, and there's nothing wrong with it, they're very artistic with their work, and they think if they don't get it, then they don't have to read it, and it's like, well, yeah, but I mean my book is 24,000 words, 23,000 words long. There's no big words in it, there's no fancy sentences, it is relatable because there's a there's a lot about trauma recovery in there, uh like a quite a lot, uh, but it's also to the point, and it really is you if your synopsis is good and your preface is good, and you know, and you're not trying to be too artsy with it, and you're just honest and straightforward, like a modern Hemingway, let's say, then I think once people start catching on to the book, and also this is very important to bear in mind. I read a book by Kent Nairburn called The Artist Journey, and he said, When you're a successful artist, you your your admirers and your fans or whatever, they have an image of you in their mind of what they want you to be like. It is your duty as a painter, a footballer, a writer, whatever you want to be, to be that for them. And oh well, I don't want to be a brand, you don't have to be a brand. Just be just be nice to them. That's all you have to be. Try and live up to what they hope you are because something you've done will have inspired them or motivated them or helped them through really hard times. And if you turn up and you can't be bothered to take five minutes to talk with them or to to sign something or whatever it is, then you let them down and you let yourself down. So it's it's a combination, and I'm sorry for rambling, it's a combination of all of that kind of stuff that I think is important, and just be sincere, just be just be a good person, you know.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Yeah, I like what you said about actually I think parents should help, you know. It's something I need to do more as well. So I I'm listening to you, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta think when when's the right time for my son to just read, read, read. He's still quite young at the moment. But we've also gone down the route here of like game to sing and like doing like the singing songs and stuff. Yeah, yeah, my dad he read to me a lot when I was like how old? Six, seven, eight, nine, ten, definitely by eleven. And that yeah, that's probably had a big impact too. Well, he's like he's a Christian, he's like a church minister. And so like I've often wondered, like he often, you know, will leave the living room for what you would call a quiet time. So he would, you know, study his Bible, you know. And like, you know, I do the same thing, but I I do writing, you know, and so it makes me wonder how as that that kind of is he saying the lesson is if something is important and serious, you can't just do it with everybody else, you know, watch whilst everyone's watching the TV or whatever. You've got to take yourself apart. You don't have to go to the coffee shop, you can just step to the next room and just spend some time there, in my case, writing, you know. Yeah, I think I think I think that's important. I mean, I also personally think like schools need to kind of step in a bit more. And I'd like to see reading promoted a bit more sometimes. I don't know. Right. I think we can finish up there.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Yeah, that's fine by me. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

I'm choking a bit here. Um it's okay. But yeah, Oliver, looking forward to when it when is your book out, Oliver? Again. It's coming soon.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

We're looking at about five months. I've just got to lock in and do the do the the annoying part of trying not to cut too much out of the book because they keep it's like when you when you when you when you get a haircut or whatever and you keep taking more and more off, and you're like, no, I can't take too much off because that's the book. So I've gotta I've just gotta do it once, get over it, get on with it, one more read through, fine, and just go, right, let's get it out, you know, depending on the publisher and their timeline, and then it's just a case of like right, let's just go. And that's it. And I I don't want it to be perfectly polished, just just good enough so people get the message, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Okay, that sounds good. I like please, you know, keep in touch because it sounds like I'm caught- I am coughing. But there's a bit of food or something stuck at the back of my throat, and that's what's triggering it anyway. Yeah, I really want to read the book, I've got to say, so please keep up me updated with you know when it's you know getting published and I'd love to get a copy.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Thank you. Yeah, it's gonna go on Amazon and it's gonna go um paperback and then yeah, and then yeah, they've got a few people that they work with. So yeah, so we'll see when it comes out. Hopefully, we'll see. We'll just see how it goes. Uh it's a bit nerve-wracking, but it's it is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Yeah, you can do it. You can do it, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

I've got the group on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Oh, yeah, great group.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

Feel free to just, you know, tell people about it. Really, really do.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Yeah, I dare it's a great group, man. It's it's a good community, definitely. Perfect. Well, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 59:12

You're welcome, welcome, Oliver. I think that so the the podcast will be available probably in the next few days. I'll have to edit it a little bit, I think. Yeah, yeah. I've had a blast.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

Nice. Can I ask you a favour? Would you be able to send a couple of clips my way so I can use it to just promote my my brand or my book? Is that all right?

SPEAKER_01 59:30

Totally, totally, yeah, totally. Because like the the app, it it it should if everything if everything goes correctly anyway, um, they usually you know create about you know 10 to 15 clips and for promotional purposes. I only use about two or three for for different reasons. Like sometimes you just don't quite have the time. There's only so long I can I promote um like in immediately, but I I I I do like you know when when people are joining the group, I do introduce them to like the podcast, and for some people I recommend certain episodes, depending on like what I think their tastes are and stuff. So what's the ways to promote?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

What's the tit so you name each podcast, don't you? What are you thinking for this one?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

Something about you know, using or utilizing like what you know. Okay. Something like that. But I I don't know. I mean, normally what I do is I I I listen to again a Monday, which I will do. And as I'm listening and I I'm making notes on my whiteboard about like you know, where to edit and stuff and where to cut, I also start thinking about titles, maybe something along those lines. Yeah, yeah, perfect, great. You know, I think something that's a good that does I think seems to kind of sum up the episode, I think. And then also your your approach to writing, I think, it really comes out to me to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you, Crikey. Great. Well, look forward to seeing the podcast. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Yeah, for sure. I'll I can send you yeah, as many clips as I can. No problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Yeah, yeah, whenever you whenever you get a chance.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

Yeah. Okay, thank you. See you later. Take care. Yeah, bye bye. Take care.