#37: How To Outline Your Novel - Carla Young

Want to know how to outline your novel?

In this episode Canadian author Carla Young discusses her sticky note approach to plotting her books, as well as how she stitches the whole thing together.

She also reads an excerpt from her debut novel, ‘Dear Dead Husband’ - a book about a woman coming to terms with the tragic death of her husband.

Perfect for writers and creators everywhere. Not to be missed.

You can purchase Carla’s book here:

https://books2read.com/DearDeadHusband

And find out more about the author here:

www.carlayoungauthor.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to another episode of What the Haze. I am your host, Hayes Wolfenden, author of the young adult series of books about Jack Strong, as well as the poetry collection made in China. I'm here today with Carla Young, author of the book Dear Dead Husband. Welcome, Carla.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hi, I'm so excited to be here and thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, you're welcome. First of all, can you tell me a little bit about yourself? And of course, a little bit about your book, please.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

So I'm Carla Young, and and and you can find me on all of the social platforms under my name and sometimes under my name plus author. I write about quirky characters who don't always make the best decisions, but they have the best intentions. So, you know, you write the books that you want to read. And the books that I loved had those characters who were frustrating, who were flawed, who were relatable. And so that's what I wrote about. So as you mentioned, my debut novel released in April, and it's about a woman who is struggling with the death of her husband. And she's not always going to make the best decisions. And her she's in a situation where her mother-in-law blackmails her into going to therapy, where her therapists, her rather judgmental therapist, suggests she writes letters to her husband. And well, she, you sort of her being her, decides to turn that exercise into a series of rants aimed at everyone around her, from like the friends who didn't show up for her funeral to the busybody neighbors who ply her with casseroles and pitying looks. So it's it sounds it's a sad subject, and there are sad bits, but it's actually very funny and humorous. And that's one of the things that I get again and again in the comments about it is that they can't believe that they're laughing out loud at such a book about a depressing topic.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah. What inspired you to write like this book then?

SPEAKER_03 2:12

You know, it's funny because uh every novel starts from a different place. Every novel you have a thread of an idea. And and this novel came to me, this character came to me, you know, as a as a download. She just showed up one day and said, told me that she was sad, uh, that she'd lost her husband, and she really wanted to wallow in her grief. And and and then it sort of evolved from there. And, you know, you start pulling in the threads, you start thinking, well, okay, you know, all of the writing craft teaches you that you're not supposed to have characters who just want to stay static. But she really did. So how do I get a static character to move and to change and do things? And and that was, you know, where the other characters came in. So the other characters are forcing her to make some changes, to, to move and change.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Okay, yeah, it sounds interesting. I was wondering why did you were saying earlier about, you know, it's quite a you know funny buck. There's some great comedic moments. Why did you go down the comedic route as opposed to, you know, more of a somber buck?

SPEAKER_03 3:36

I would I would like to say, oh yeah, it was all intentional, but it it really is just how it landed. So she's she's kind of a sarcastic character, she's a uh witty character. She's she considers herself a bit of a truth teller. So she's looking at the world and and seeing people, and she feels like she sees the the truth about them. And so I didn't I I didn't know how it would land. I mean, I I consider myself a funny person. And and you know, you write, you write the book and you write in your style, and and and you know, and having it being received that way uh is like, yay! But but also, you know, it was I knew I wanted to write a quirky character. I knew I wanted her to be weird and awkward and relatable. And so that naturally lends itself to humor. And and really it's the character of Eliza who who drives the the story. She's she's what the story is about. It's it's her, her struggles and and and her rebellion. And and I think, you know, we have those, she says the wrong things. She shows up in and sort of blunders her way through. And I think that makes her very relatable. People can see themselves in her. And, you know, her funny moments become like are there are funny moments. Like we've we've all said like something weird or behaved weird, or, you know, and there's a lot of her internal monologue where she says something, and then you get that moment that we've all had where we're like, you know, stop being weird, you know, like just and and you start kind of spiraling as you're trying to edit yourself. That's what she does.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah, it sounds interesting. You mentioned there about relatability. Do you think it's important for books, plots, especially characters, to be relatable to the readers?

SPEAKER_03 5:58

I mean, not not every character, I mean, I like I would hope, you know, a book about a serial killer, you're not going to be like, ooh, I really related to him. But but there is that aspect of every character, hopefully, that you have a thread where you're like, yeah, I I get that. And people, people like to to see themselves. They like to feel like they're seen, especially with a subject like this where it involves struggle. So, you know, when when you're dealing with a subject, you know, having, you know, not not sort of p pulling back the the layers of what it's like to to grieve and what you know what people are feeling, and and the book gets into how people react. So the the casseroles. And I I had a friend who read the book and she was like, she was like, yeah, the the casserole thing, the because they experienced that. They they said, you know, of course, it was it was helpful, but also a little overwhelming, like that that people just come and start bringing food and casserole and and you know, uh because they I mean, really what happens, I think, is people don't know how to react to somebody who is is grieving. And in they're they're trying to do I mean, people are naturally sort of like, there's a problem, I want to solve it. But that's not a problem you can solve, but they want to do something. So I forgot where we started with the question, but I'll I'll just keep like the that whole I guess looking at that something like so many people were like, I've been I've been a giver of casseroles, I've been a receiver of casseroles. Other people have said, I'm never gonna think about casseroles again. Some people have said, I'm never gonna give somebody a casserole, like when they're they've lost a loved one. And you know, it's funny because you know, people start to understand and and and look at like how do we be how do we behave and how do we interact with people when when they're struggling? And, you know, and I don't have, by the way, I don't have the right answer. I am also a I'm a I'm a giver of of casseroles. I would I would 100% show up and you know, be like, here is a casserole, or here I made you some homemade banana bread, because it is, you know, it is hard to see people who are struggling with such a devastating loss that you want to do anything. But what happened in the book is, and and and I experienced this in in real life, is that the people around Eliza made it about themselves. So, and and and the example I'll give is when we moved to the West Coast, I was at community barbecue and someone said, Oh, you know, why are you moving? And so I answered them and I explained the reason why we were moving to the West Coast. And they immediately said, Oh, well, I could never move. And and I I was like, hmm, very interesting. I didn't ask why you weren't moving, but but immediately they felt and and I I I had a little aha moment. And then I realized so many times when people ask you a question, like about, or, you know, if someone and my friend who is a vegan said the same thing happens to her, is she says she's a vegan, and then suddenly people feel compelled to explain why they're not vegan. Well, it's not about you, but people do. They make it about themselves. So that's some of the behavior that I sort of look at in the in the book is how people react. But they react in a way that is not about the person, it's about themselves.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, suppose, you know, relatability, it's about being realistic, it's believability that when you get that thread, that connection between, you know, the reader and the character or the events in the book, even if it's just a little bit, it it yes, they they have a connection. But they then understand, oh yeah, this is true, this happened. I think that's really important as opposed to nah, that would never happen. That's just completely ridiculous. Yeah, I'll be honest, it sounds really interesting. As you're talking about the casseroles, I was thinking, what if everybody came to your house and kept giving casseroles and you had like seven or eight? I I you know, that'd be kind of funny. Or if you know, it was a lot of like cake, for example, and you you you ate it all, and the next time someone saw you, you were like really fat or something, you put on a lot of weight, and it's like, that's you. You did that to them. And you knew it.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

Like, it's I don't know, it sounds crazy, but um well, and and that's and that's the the book opens with the casseroles and uh and you know the frustration that she has about about the people who keep bringing casseroles. And like you said, if if you imagine everybody brought you a casserole, it would start to feel overwhelming. And and you are sort of dealing with managing uh you're you're in this process of grieving and you're dealing with other people who are adding to that because they have expectations and and yeah, so it it it it brings the the believability because everybody can like the casseroles become something that's relatable, like and and even if they you know aren't like casseroles aren't necessarily more it like an international, like every culture doesn't have specifically a dish they call casseroles, but they have something that is like a comfort food dish. And and so that yeah, that became that became a a theme in the book was the casseroles. And in fact, when we had small little gathering to celebrate the launch of the book, of course my friend came and she brought a casserole and I was like, oh, like yay, because I I mean I do, I do enjoy them, but also it was it was kind of funny.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Yeah, yeah, it does sound kind of funny. I was gonna say as well, you when you were talking about the comedy element and how like you hadn't planned it and it just you started writing and it just kind of suggested itself. I find that's often the case with writing. You don't, you might have an acting idea in your mind or a character, and then as soon as you start writing, for one reason or another, the tone suggests itself, and it's like it's been lodged in your subconscious for a long time, and you don't even know it's there, and you start writing, and there might be a quirkiness, for example, and you're like, hey, where did this come from? Who is this person? And then you're like, but I like this this and yeah, maybe you read it again, and you're like, no, no, this this is this is good, this seems good to me. I I wrote an epilogue just recently about a character that that is is killed in the the main book, but I'd always planned to write the epilogue with like a you know with about having a disguise. And then yeah, for some reason she has this kind of a flippant attitude in the epilogue. And I was like, where did that come from? What's going on here? But I was like, yeah, you know, let's let's just go with it. Kind of disguises that it's the main it's the main character come back from the dead, but whatever.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

I think I think when when a character voice shows up, you have to you have to lean into it. You have to let that voice be their voice. It is it is a little bit tricky because when you when you're writing, then like for me, I I tend to be writing and editing projects at the same time. So then I'm switching voices between characters and it does start to feel like, okay, hold on, wait a minute. I need to be probably more organized and have notes about what their verbal ticks are so that I can keep track of now who says this all the time versus who who doesn't say that. But that's sort of a a technical detail. But uh anyway, now did you did you want me to read a little bit of the opening?

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Please.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Uh okay. I will I will edit out there is some colorful language in the opening of the book. In fact, some of the reviews commented about how there the I will because I don't want you to get a bad, you know, rating or whatever on on all the platforms for explicit language, I will edit that out. But just for your audience to know, it there is in the first line of the book, there's there's swear words. Well, there's there's swear words throughout the book because that's who the character is. I'm gonna put on my reading glasses, so one moment. So this is this is the opening. So more that the colorful language, casseroles. The persistent knocking finally stops. I hear the telltale rattle of glassware as someone from the casserole brigades sets today's contribution to my continued survival in front of the cottage door. Whoever it is knows I'm home. I am always home. I pull back the covers over my head and moan and it and am instantly met with a bat blast of fart air. Thanks for that, casseroles. Yes, hiding under the covers is silly because I'm in my bedroom with the blinds drawn, where no one can see me, but somehow it feels necessary. I listen for the crunch of gravel as whoever invaded my privacy leaves, no doubt puffed up with pride at doing their duty to help poor, pathetic Eliza. But all I hear is the sound of my own claustrophobic breathing. After a few minutes, I can't stand it anymore. I whip the covers off and take a deep breath of fresh air. Anything smells better than day old farts in an enclosed space, even the pungent odor of the sweat stained pajamas I have been wearing for more days than I'm willing to admit. I lie in bed and contemplate the spider web dangling from the ceiling. I wonder where its owner is hiding. I named her, not Charlotte, because that's too bloody depressing. What kind of person would give a companion a name that dooms them to die? I chose Brunhild, Hilda for short, after the Valkyrie legend about the daughter of Odin who is condemned to marry Sigurd, which, okay, fine, is kind of depressing because all versions end with Sigurd dead, but that puts her in the same boat as me, minus the daughter of Odin bit of. Hilda stands, usually stands guard in the corner of the ceiling, above my pillow and to the left. We have a mutual understanding. She does not come down from her corner when I'm in bed, and I do not squish her dead. Friendships are rarely so clear in their expectations.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah, love it. Yeah, fantastic. I've just made a couple of notes. Already I get that. A fantastic sense of place and and the character. There's just so much in it, so it's like the reader understands what's going on straight away. I'm not sure how many pages that was. It one, two, three. It depends on the font. But I think that's very good.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Yeah, I don't it it's it's it's like the first little bit of the the opening scene. It it goes on, obviously, about she, you know, gets out of bed and and and sort of goes to see what has has been left. And and then you get the the background about the the who the casserole brigade is, and you know, about her neighbor who is constantly kind of twitching her curtain and keeping an eye on her, which, of course, is a thoughtful thing to do, but my character finds it very, very annoying.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Yeah, I love the word play, the casserole brigade. It really took out of me straight away. There's something almost like I don't know, like Dickensian about it, you know, just the way the words are kind of just cleverly, you know, phrased, it's attractive, it it got my ear. If I was reading it, it would get my eye.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

Yeah. Well, and it was funny, like, and and an early sort of beta reader group, you you get together with a bunch of writers and and ask for feedback, and and there was some debate amongst the group on you can't really opening your book talking about fart air and and like that and and I was like, you know, and feedback is always a challenging part of of writing. And and fortunately, there was enough people who were on the pro-fart camp that uh and even when when the person mentioned that they didn't like the mention of of fart air and you know, talking about that sort of the crude subject. And I was like, well, no, fart the fart air is staying. There's I'm not going. You can you can't take my farts out of there. And because that that is who she is, that's what makes her relatable, because you know, it's something that people don't talk about, but you know, it everybody does fart, and and so I I I put it in there and it became that that is sort of the thread of, you know, she she feels awkward in in the the blurb of the book. She she talks about how she's her her nervous sweatiness. So she and that becomes both part of because the book also goes into you get glimpses of the love story between her and her husband. And one of the things about her husband is that he never minded about her sweatiness. But then with him, he never she never had a reason to be nervous and sweaty. So, you know, it becomes this again, relatable thing. Like we've all had those moments where we're like, you know, tense and scrunchy and sweaty and getting more self-conscious about the fact that we're sweaty and oh my, you know, am I gonna smell bad? Am I gonna have these big sweat stains? So that really getting into the the physical uh reality of what it's like to be in her, in her body, in her mind, uh makes her real. And and that's think some. That I heard again and again was how she was so relatable and that you could picture yourself in her shoes. And that, I mean, for me, that when people feel like that I've written a character that feels real to them, that, you know, highlights something about themselves or their lives or things that they think. I mean, that is that's the best part for me.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah. I mean, yeah, talking about farts. I mean, it is it was never one of those things that that jumped out at me as you were you were reading it. Yeah, I like it. I think it it it's you know, especially if it's on the first page, it grabs the reader's attention. Yeah. Rightly or wrongly. It's not bland. Something I I I know, but when you can work shot or what you want to call it, yeah, be to read be to read or yeah, work shot or critique, sometimes things like that or or certain phrasing can get removed. But it happens a lot sometimes, I think, with poetry where it's if if the readers are not used to it, they just don't like it. And I I think you have to stick with it because you know it gets the reader's attention, but I see it as like symbolic, like for the grief aspect, it's like a rottenness, and it's showing the reader that there's something abnormal here, something's not right. That that's also it's foreshadowing, like I said, that something's not right. We find out, of course, l you know, later what it is. So yeah, I love it. Great. Thank you. It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Well, yeah, it's it's in. It's too late now. And it's, you know, but uh yeah, I mean, it about feedback. I mean, it it is interesting as a as a writer, you know, your your books go through. You know, in my case, I had I had beta readers, I I had a wonderful editor who I worked with on this book, and I work with her on all my books. And and then I also had uh arc readers. So you have a lot of people giving you feedback on things. And and I've fortunately had, you know, some good advice from from a writing friend and said, you know, give people specific things to to to give you feedback on. Because if they as uh and it's actually writers that are probably the most notorious for it, is they'll be like, oh, well, I'm just gonna change the sentence and I'm gonna rework this and I'm gonna fix the grammar. And the assignment, you know, especially for beta readers, is to highlight for me, was anything confusing? Were things frustrating? Were things, you know, did did you get really frustrated with the character at this point? What made you laugh? What made you cry? Did anything confuse you? Did you get kicked out of the story? Don't don't change the the wording, the voice, because that that's you know, you as an author. And and I find you you do really need to be specific about what you're asking for when you have somebody reading your work, because you need to be like, no, you know, yes, you might not be in the, you know, pro, you know, swear word or fart air camp, but you're not me. You're not me as a as a writer. One of the things one of the editorial reviews highlighted as as a bit of a critique was that I make up a lot of words. And so there's a lot of fake words in there. And and I was like, well, no, I'm not going, I'm not going to give up my fake words, no matter what. I I think that they're part of the the the character of of this novel. I personally make up a lot of words, but I'm I make them uh understandable. So like cut casserole brigade, you get an idea of who this group of people are that that's like they they're they've got their casseroles, they're they're coming for you, they're knocking on your door, and there's a brigade of them. And they have it, and I I didn't turn platituding into, you know, part of that. They, you know, they came and they were platituding her. And and there was uh all sorts of words made up around the the sort of platituding, because that was another thing that I observed is and and Eliza becomes the observer of it, is that people really want to say something. They want to give you some great piece of like, you know, perspective and in the form of a platitude. And and she she wasn't having any of it. So and that that comes out in the letters that comes out in her internal monologue, where she's getting, you know, frustrated with, you know, people just trying to make her feel better about a shitty situation. Oops, sorry, might have to edit that out. They're trying to make her feel better about a situation where there's no there's no silver lining. There's n there's no silver lining. And and so that was another reaction that that I had to the book is people would say, my editor as well, like it made them think about how they show up and how they react when somebody is dealing with, you know, a loss or even a tragedy that this habit that we have. And we all have it. I mean, like, that we that we want to just we want to fix it. We want to say something that makes that person feel better. But but there's there it there isn't a magical phrase or perspective or anything that can do that. And and so that I think I'm hoping that that, you know, that lesson stays with people, that they they get to see it played out in the book, they get to, you know, read about, or, or for the audiobook version here, the the frustration that it lands with the person who's experiencing it.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Um, you mentioned about, you know, making up words. My experience is that the best writers make up words and they try to find a way to make their language, you know, more enthralling, more interesting for the reader, you know, especially if they're telling at that particular time or they're doing description. It's interesting. It's clever wordplay. And, you know, you know, as a reader here, when I'm not writing, I love that kind of language, to be honest, in in books. It keeps me reading. I do like to read something where I can think the writer is skillful. It's not just, you know, great plot, great characters. There's something about the way they're telling it and the language that they're using that is skillful and maybe even difficult, more difficult than the average person. So yeah, good for you. Good for you. Thanks. I was gonna ask you as well, Carla. I know you've mentioned to me about uh, I think you have like a a bit of an unusual way of outlining your book, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Well, yeah. Well, I I I I will start with the caveat that every every every book is different in the process. But I attended a workshop and and I am I am pro team sticky notes. Like I I love them. I have them in every color, every color, so many colors. And like mountains of them. And and actually now friends do even buy me sticky notes. They're like, ooh, I found some colors that you might not have. So when uh outlining the novel, because the the not to get too nerdy and I don't want to spoil anything, but the structure of the novel is that we have you have the letters that she writes to her husband. And you have the there's also you get flashbacks, but they're told in in in first person of her relationship with her husband. So you you get glimpses into the past and layered in, then you have all of the things that are going on now and and the different plot threads and the symbolic threads. So I got out a big poster board piece of paper, and actually now what I do is I I because I ended up giving myself a writing, a hand cramp, writing super tiny. So I I evolved the system and I now do it on multiple pieces of poster board that I tape together, and I I take each thread element, and it's different for every book, and I give it a color code because I have a color, I have all the colors of sticky notes, and then I just write a a little, you know, blurb, like a little, like what happens, what's the what's the beat, what's the the the plot moment. And and then I just and and the night the nice thing is is that if you're like, ooh, actually, this beat, this scene needs to go here. You can just pick up that sticky note and you can move it. And if you decide you don't like that, it's you haven't written anything, you haven't committed to it. I I used to think that I was an outliner and I I was, you know, a a little bit judgmental about the people who were pants. And and now I like to say I'm a ploty pantser because I I do have these moments kind of plotted out, the beats, but I leave myself space for discovery. So I leave I leave some things open. So there I won't I won't spoil it, but there's a a pretty big scene in the book that I had no idea that it existed until I got there. And, you know, I had this because uh a friend comes back from being away in in London, because it's set in the UK, and that was people ask me about that, and you know, why did you set it in the UK? And I'm like, I didn't, my character did. She, that's what that's who she was. Yeah, and so the the friend comes back, and so there's a whole thread with the friend and and and and an arc. And I found outlining and and plotting, and I and I did it both in advance and while writing, gives you a visual way to keep track of things. You can see the threads, you can see how the threads interact, and and you can also then figure out, you know, okay, I need, you know, I need to wrap up this thread and I need to wrap up this thread before this thread so you can kind of get a sense of how the book w should be ordered, how how you would, you know, have the interplay between the letters, you know, what's revealed when, that kind of thing. It's i I I I don't think I would go back to another form of outlining. I I actually do, before I even start with the sticky notes, I just start on blank pieces of paper and I do it by hand. So I'm lots of people work 100% on computer. And I found that, you know, when you're you're facing the blank page and you're you got your fingers poised over the keyboard, you there's just something that you you get stuck in that thing that where if you've got the pen and you're just writing down words and you give yourself that space to be like, you know, putting in placeholders, like I need something here, or maybe this, or coming up with lists, and then and then I organize it into this visual sticky note, you know, tool that then I keep track of. Okay, have I written this scene? And I actually then will pull those individual scenes into Scrivener, you know, I'll just put in whatever it says on the sticky note. And then I might even start, oh, okay, well, I I need to do this and this scene, and I'll maybe even start writing a few little notes. And maybe that note turns into a chunk of dialogue. And oh, and I sort of then follow that dialogue and write that. And then I might leave that scene and carry on pulling all the other sticky notes into into Scrivener and and you know, typing them out and same thing, you know, I might only type five words and you know put that scene there as the placeholder, so then I get there. And the nice thing about that, because I I write every day during like Monday to Friday, and not every day is the most creative day, not every day is the most inspired day. But I come to my desk every day and I have an assignment. I have a thing to do. Okay, I need to write this scene where it starts here, it ends here, and it illustrates, you know, the relationship between Eliza and her mother-in-law. Well, how can I do that? Okay, well, you know, versus, oh, I need to come up with another scene. What is that scene gonna be? I I already know what this scene is. I can then fill in the blank. So, you know, how can I how can I illustrate this relationship? Oh, well, let's have them having tea and and have, you know, Eliza, you know, spilling crumbs, you know, down herself and and her mother-in-law, who is very polished and poised, is, you know, taking bites and not even getting, you know, a crumb on her on her lips, like she, and you know, and Eliza notices this. She she notices that her and her mother-in-law are not the same. And so that that is that is the process that, you know, and again, it changes though. I mean, and I don't I also have started putting story ideas, you know, voicing them. So telling somebody else what I'm working on, which is great. You you d you need to have writing colleagues to to talk to, but having to explain it it it's it's all different parts of your brain. And again, a very uh notable scene that happens later in the book happened in this way, where I had a call with a writing colleague, and I said, I need something that does this. And so we kind of threw out some ideas, but she was mostly there to be the backstop, the the sounding board. And it was mostly just me. And and so I was like sort of talking at the same time as I'm trying to write notes. I'm like, oh yeah, this is a good idea. Yes, we need to do this. And and that that scene that you people will know it when they get there. They'll be like, oh, it's that scene. It's a it's a very funny scene. It's between Eliza and her friend Carolyn, who who has the nickname Kaz. And it it it's sort of a, it's sort of the climax of the of their friendship arc that sort of will resolves that thread.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Yeah, it sounds really interesting. Like the way you write your novel, it almost sounds like when they make movies. Obviously, when we watch a movie in a theater, it's you know, most of the time it's a linear movie from the beginning to the end. But when they actually film it, they film it at different parts. And like they might, they might I I don't know why. They just do so. They might start filming the end at the start of the production process, and then they might do act two, then they might go and do act three and and so on and so forth. And it just sounds a bit like that. It sounds very, very interesting, I've got to say. And I just got this idea in my mind of just this like a web. You've got it all weighed out and in your mind, especially, but again on the sticky notes, and then on scrivener, and you you you're you're you're writing out this scene, and this scene has to be done, and then you're gonna do something else that might not be sequential. I thought, yeah, I find that really interesting, I've got to say.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

Yeah, I and actually the the fun thing, I guess, is that you don't then have to write your book in order. Like you said, they like film film companies, they don't necessarily film the the movie in order. I don't necessarily write the book in order. I might, if I really am feeling so the the ending of the book was written, uh a draft version of it was written quite early because I knew where I wanted to end it. I knew what the resolution would be. And so I wrote a draft version of that. And and if you if you sit down at your desk and you're not feeling a particular scene, you're like, oh, I gotta write this scene. I'm I'm not feeling inspired about that. I I would just scroll down the list and be like, oh, yeah, I can write this scene today. And and I don't, I don't I don't force myself to write I I I do force myself to write. I don't force myself to write a particular thing. The only thing is is that if I do leave all of the challenging scenes until the end, then then that last sort of 10, 20% of writing is sometimes the the more challenging part because you've left all of the complicated things. And sometimes it's it's a scene that you're not writing because you are like, oh, I need to figure out how to, you know, choreograph the the this fight scene, and that for me is not an intuitive thing. There's no fight scenes in this book, but in other books there, there are. And, you know, or I need to, you know, do something and you're just like, if you're not if you're not feeling it, I just leave it. And and then I I I I leave that for future Carla to deal with. Now, Carla, that's not her problem. That's future Carla's problem. And then eventually future Carla is a little upset with past Carla and saying, like, yeah, really? Why why'd you leave this mess for me that I have to deal with?

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah, I do that. I don't do that when I'm writing books, but I do tend to do that when I'm editing. Like, I'll write down notes like I might write a note like, you know, rewrite the prologue. But as I'm editing it, I won't rewrite the prologue straight away, if that makes sense. I go through the whole thing and make usually start, you know, things like typos and stuff first. Right. And then I go back and I correct the bits that I think were quite difficult, quite challenging, maybe need a bit of time, maybe more than a day's work. And sometimes I leave myself problems that are like, oh my God, I didn't realize, you know, this was gonna be such a big trouble, you know?

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Yeah, I do that with if I have to figure out something in terms of timeline math, you know, figuring out the proper chronology and and and I'll just like write myself a note and be like, okay, figure out, you know, how much time has passed or or, you know, like doing all the age math, you know, that kind of thing. That's always future Carla's problem. Today, Carla, no, not her problem. She's just gonna write about makeup words and write funny scenes and you know, have her character behaving awkwardly and and future Carla can worry about all that other technical stuff.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Yeah, I like what you said. Said there about like the you know, working out, like how much time's passed, how old is this person based upon what's happened? How many times I've gone back and uh eight sometimes I'm reading it, maybe I've read it five, six times, and I'm like, wait, I feel like just two days have passed, but they're talking like two weeks has passed, you know, things like that. And like for writers, it just this this happens so often to be with every novel.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

That that is why the sticky notes are helpful, because I, you know, the other thing that I did to myself, thanks, past Carla, is when I I when I planned out this novel, I wanted the love story of Eliza and Joseph, her husband, to be told in a way that it was reverse chronological. So it starts with you you get the their glimpses of their life starting with the the actually the anniversary of his death. And then you get these, and then it goes backwards through time, and you you you see how they they were as a couple, and then it ends with them meeting. And and and so you're getting and and so that that's challenging to to plan like just to write if you're writing in a linear way. And so using the sticky notes, I could plan out their uh and then there was all sorts of timeline math because I I I do like to, you know, give my readers lots of, you know, signposts to be like, here's the marker. So I I did it relative to the present time in the book, you know, like eight years earlier, or, you know, and so figuring out all of that, that timeline math. And so for I'm I'm working on a sequel, and so I I just put in a placeholder, you know, figure out time, like and and because I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do the timeline math just yet. I will I will sort that out at the end when when I'm editing. And and you know, and again, I might even in the process pause the writing and go back to the the sticky note mapping and and bring that those threads in and figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah, it sounds great. I gotta say, yeah, very thorough, very creative as well. I was going to ask you as well. You said the setting of the book was in the UK. What kind of like research did you do for that? I mean, I had you been there before or did you have to do any kind of reading or anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Yes, to both. So what I I am I I'm a big fan of of using like so for settings, I I I set things in fictional places. Or I I I say this, and then my current book is actually set in Vancouver, where I live. I either set it in fictional places or in places that are so big that that it it could kind of apply to any particular place. Because I I didn't want I did I so so this is set in a fictional place because I didn't want people to be like, oh, she she talked about the coffee shop that's on the corner of this street and this street, but there isn't one there. I wanted to have the ability to just be like uh, you know, create a fictional place that felt real. And and so the the details that that made it real were about how sort of the community acted and the flow of of of sort of village life from you know the the off season, because it's in a touristic town, to the you know, when when a whole bunch of tourists invade uh and start to sort of overrun the the all of the local shops and and places and and you know that sort of I want to say universal sort of tension between locals and uh and and visitors where locals are happy and excited and enthused that people are visiting and spending money in their community, and then there's a flip where people are getting to be like, you know, kind of frustrated and and you know, annoyed and and you know, when when the sort of the peak of of tourist season. So so yes, I I I did I did research. I have been to the UK many times and and plan on going again, you know, under under the guise of of research. And and then also just spending time listening to people who are from the UK. Fortunately, I have quite a number of people in my circle of friends and and and I listening to their to their mannerisms, to th the way things they say things, you know, to give it that authenticity to to the to the novel. And and then when I created the audiobook, I actually hired a narrator who is ba who well, two narrators. I have uh both male and female narrators, but the voice of Eliza is uh is a woman who's in the UK.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Fantastic. Uh yeah, I think it's best sometimes with research to kind of know people and, you know, go and travel there, be interested in the place. Yes, it sounds fantastic. I was going to ask you as well, what advice would you give for aspiring authors, like somebody that wants to start writing? It could be a novel similar to yours or a memoir. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 50:30

Um, I would say learn everything you can. I mean, first and foremost, you know, learn about your craft. You know, your number one job is writing a good story that readers will love and relate to. Then I mean, and especially for indie authors, learn everything you can about publishing, learn all the technical aspects of, you know, Amazon categories and keywords, learn about advertising, learn about, you know, how like social media marketing, which is constantly evolving. And, you know, like it is uh it's a big job. But, you know, I would also recommend connecting with other author communities. Authors are very, so very generous with their knowledge and advice. And, you know, I'm in several different Facebook groups that are specifically for indie authors. And people are always popping in there and saying, you know, how do you recommend, you know, I advertise, you know, blah, blah, blah. And and people come in with things, or I'm thinking about doing a, you know, using this, you know, newsletter service that sends out blasts, have people had success? And, you know, and and even people get into very, very detailed requests like, you know, this particular specific thing has glitched on my Amazon dashboard, you know, help. And then people jump in with advice. It's, I mean, that is, I think, one of the best parts of being an indie author is is the community in the support of other authors. And and I I mean, you and I connected because you reached out and said, hey, do you want to be in my in my group? And so I I would, I guess that's another piece of advice is don't feel you know shy about reaching out to your author colleagues. And you know, we're all very friendly. And yes, there are going to be some authors who are busier than others, but you know, find those those communities, those, those groups. You know, a lot of times if you're taking a course, the the the person or or company that offers the course, they will have communities. I attend a writing conference every year, and there's a community group associated with that. You know, just you need to get out and meet other authors, talk to other authors, you know, network with other authors. So I guess that's a whole bunch of advice, but those are would be my top, those would be my top pieces of advice.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Yeah, I mean, marketing these days, yeah, it's so important. I mean, I can honestly say as a writer, for most of my writing life, my marketing absolutely sucked. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. And then I got I got to a point where I was like, you can't just keep, you know, working and writing and sending off to agents and it gets rejected. You know, you've got to do something to get yourself out there. And then I had, yeah, this podcast kind of came into my mind.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

You know.

SPEAKER_03 54:01

Yeah, I mean, that's fantastic. And and you know, I guess the other thing I would add to that is, you know, just because one person does a podcast or does a lot of, you know, facing the camera videos and and to post to social media or, you know, or somebody else writes a bunch of blog posts or whatever, there's no right answer for marketing. If you if TikTok is not your is not your thing, then don't do it. Find the things that you can do and do well and focus on that. And and then when you master that, then maybe add something new. Don't try to do everything all at once. So, I mean, I'm currently working on, you know, mastering Facebook marketing. That works for my genre. And there's a lot of women's fiction readers on Facebook, as my daughter says, Facebook is for old people. And my audience are, you know, you know, old people, myself included. I'm I'm included in that category. But but, you know, so I'm I'm I'm working on learning all of the nitty-gritty and d details of how Facebook advertising works. And you know, and I would recommend not outsourcing it until you know it, because you need to understand. And and in and it you need to understand what moves the needle. You need to understand what's working, and and you know, if you if you just give it to somebody else, then you're then you're not gonna have that knowledge. And and I would say it's incredibly empowering for me, anyway, that to to know that I have the tools, I have the ability to, you know, I can create an ad, I can, you know, take sort of reader feedback, and I can pull in the threads of the the comments and the reviews and and things people have said about the book, and I can mirror that back out to potential readers, and I can get results. So it's it's up to me to to do that. And and it and it's there's not there's not a there's not a magic, I'm not waiting for a magic moment. I I'm sort of making it for myself. And I to me, I love that. I love that feeling that that I can do it, I can, I can control it, I can make things happen. And I think any writer can. And and saying, I'm not good at marketing, you know, nobody is good at marketing. You you just have to learn. And and there's so many resources out there. They're like in in one of these Facebook groups that I belong to, someone posted a podcast video that was exactly what I needed to learn. It was how to do Facebook ads. And it was a really long podcast, and they got into the nitty-gritty of how, you know, how to target different types of customers from the warm prospects all the way down to cold prospects who aren't on Facebook to find a book. Because some people, some people are on Facebook and they belong to Facebook reader groups and they are constantly asking for book recommendations. Other people are on Facebook just to be on Facebook, and they don't know they're looking for a book until you tell them with your ad that actually you are looking for a book. So, so that, you know, I it's it don't be intimidated because there's just it we're in a golden age of learning, and you know, you can learn a ton of things, you know, for free. I was in Costa Rica last winter, and we we didn't want to rent a car, so we had drivers, and Diego was our driver, and he was the owner of of the company the that did the driving, the to and fro driving service. And so we had uh he he actually drove us on one of our longer drives, and he was telling me all about how things have changed in terms of marketing his business and how he went and he's like, it's all there online for free. I just went and I watched the videos and I learned and he learned how to like create a website and how to like, you know, find people because it used to be travel agents would be the people who would be sending them business, but that's changed. And he was like, he did it all just by going on YouTube and finding videos and watching videos and teaching himself. And I'm like, and this was before I launched the book. And I'm like, well, if Diego can do it, I can do it. So so that's what I did.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

I think that's a fantastic way to put it, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, with marketing, I still do my bit. I mean, on my podcast is one of my main ways to market my books and market myself. Yeah, Facebook ads is something I keep meaning to look into, and I haven't quite got around to it. Yeah, I think you run it. Everything's online these days. There's tutorials, there's lectures, there's podcasts, blog posts, there's articles. This is where you know AI can help as well. You've got you've got Chat GPT, you can ask questions, you get answers to my things, and if it doesn't work, okay, try something else. Because the same thing, say for example, Facebook ads, it isn't gonna work for every single author, at least every single author the same way. It's you know, different people are are different and they're gonna use different things. Like you mentioned podcasts earlier, yeah, I get it, not everyone's gonna want to do this. I do think a good one is what you said earlier about finding groups of people, whether it's on Facebook or your local writing group, get out, meet people and talk and just tell them about your work. And you know, they might go, oh well, can I read it? You know, that that's validation in itself. You know, they might be just interested.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

Yeah, no, I it's it's great. I mean, yeah, it was funny because this goes back to my past life, my career as a as a copywriter. So I do have a, I guess, a slight advantage because I was a marketing copywriter for two decades. But when I went out on my own as an independent copywriter, the one of the things I stumbled across somebody and I and and she was a copywriter. And I said, How did you, how did you start in business as a copywriter? And she's like, Well, I just sent out, you know, an email uh email to everybody I knew and said, Hey, I'm starting my copywriting business. This is what I do. So I did that. But at the time, I didn't have a lot of of context. So like all five people that I emailed, I mean, that took, you know, 10 minutes. And then I'm like, well, now what? So that what that's what I did is I was like, well, I don't have people that I can tell about my business. So I went out and met people. And and in my first year in business, way back when, I met and networked with about a thousand people. And from that sort of early effort, then my my business network became the people who brought me business, who found me business, who, you know, and having that that clear message of who you're looking for enabled people to be like, this is, oh, you need to talk to Carla. Doing the same with your book. So if you as an author can describe who you're looking for as a reader, you know, what your book is about, what your value proposition is, oh, I write books for young adults who are reluctant readers. Everybody can then go, oh, wait a minute, and they can matchmake and find and help you and help recommend you. Giving your audience the tools to understand why they want to read your book. You know, what are they going to get from it? You know, what is that feeling? You know, the feeling they're going to get from my book is that they're going to laugh out loud and they're going to cry, maybe in the same chapter. And and people are looking for that. So putting things in in the language of your reader, the language of the person who is going to rec the reader or the recommender, putting it in their language, then it's easy for for you to find to find your audience and help other people find your audience.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

Yeah, I think that's perfectly. I think on that note, we can end things, Carla. Yes. It's been an absolute pleasure, I've got to say.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

Thank you. And thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

You're perfectly welcome.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:46

Excellent. All right. Take care.

unknown 1:03:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

You two.