Coach Denise, 21x going on 22x NYC Marathon Finisher, Erica Agran, and Pro Runner Emily Durgin: Running The NYC MARATHON For The First Time

Coach Denise, Erica Agran, and Emily Durgin join the show's Host, (me) Run Coach Alli, on the podcast. In today's episode, we had quite the tripod chat of women discussing everything related to the 2023 TCS NYC Marathon quickly approaching on 11/6! All three ladies on this episode are running in it this year.

Coach Denise, the Marathon Whisperer, is an avid marathoner and ultra runner with 20 years of coaching experience and just straight up HILARIOUS!

Erica Agran is a 21x NYC Marathon finisher going on to complete her 22nd marathon in November. This marathon will be her 57th marathon once she does so. She is also running in the Chicago Marathon on 10/9!

Emily Durgin joined me in 2021 on the podcast, sharing about her running, and moving from the 10K to the Half Marathon event. Today, she discusses her marathon training build-up leading into her marathon DEBUT, which is coming up here in NYC on 11/6. It was terrific to have her back on the show, and I'm excited to bring her back in future episodes to chat with us about MARATHON TRAINING!

I can't wait to see all three women fly up 5th Avenue! I'm excited for you to listen to the show, especially if you're running the 2023 NYC Marathon this November or you're thinking about training for a marathon someday; this episode will inspire anyone with an interest in running!

If you don't have a cheer squad and need one, you can find us at mile 19 of the race on 5th avenue! 

If you are looking for a fun, community 3-mile shakeout run. In that case, coach Denise and I will lead one from Prehab on Saturday, 11/5 at 7:30 am, where we will be ending back at Prehab afterward to enjoy massages and recovery fuel from our friends Core Power! ALL fitness levels are welcome to join us, even if you’re not running the marathon on 11/6! The more, the merrier. Registration link to come - stay tuned!

If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more about distance swimming, mindset, and mental toughness for runners, please share your thoughts in the comments under the show notes. You can also email me at allison.felsenthal@gmail.com with your ideas! I love hearing from you. 

Don't forget to head to Apple Podcasts to support the show and tap on the "+Follow" button! Your support allows me to understand better what you enjoy and dislike and find the time and resources needed to push every new episode LIVE!

Connect with Coach Denise

• Website: https://linktr.ee/marathonwhisperer
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marathonwhisperer/

Connect with Erica Agran

• Erica's "Top 5" Tips For The NYC Marathon Blog Post: https://ericafinds.com/2015/10/friday-finds-my-top-5-nyc-marathon-tips/
• Blog: https://ericafinds.com 
• Instagram: @ericaagran

Connect with Emily Durgin

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/em_durgin/

Buzzsprout - Let's get your podcast launched!
Start for FREE

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Hi everyone, welcome to Run with Alley Live. It is Tuesday, September 27th, and I have a whole crew here to talk about the New York City Marathon, and I cannot wait to talk about all the excitingness with them. But before we dive into today's special guest, I want to remind you that if you are returning to the show, so please subscribe to the show so we could always bring on new listeners to the show. And if you are new here, do not forget to subscribe after this awesome episode. So without further ado, we have Erica Agren, who is a 22-time New York City Marathon finisher. She is from the Chicago area and has a health and wellness blog. Then we have Denise Sorrel, who is the marathon whisperer and just gets everyone pumped about running all the marathons everywhere. And you know, I just love her energy and her attitude. Um and she is also running New York City this year. And then we have pro runner Emily Durgen, who has her marathon debut coming up in New York City this November, and she's gonna be amazing. And I'm so delighted to have all of you here. So thank you guys so much for joining me. Thank you for being here. Yes. Um, so uh let's just go around the horn. What is the most exciting thing about marathon training, I guess, to each one of you? So we're gonna start with Emily Durgen.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Hi, yes. Okay, so um, this is like you said, my debut. So this has been my first time training for a marathon. I've done a handful of halves. So my training hasn't changed a whole lot, but I've gotten to do a lot more of the long runs and the hard effort long runs, which I have always loved since like, you know, when I was in college, even doing my 10 mile runs in college, I always enjoyed. So it seems like now in marathon training, that's kind of just uh glorified a bit more. So I've been really enjoying the the hard long runs. I actually did 22 miles for the first time this this past Sunday. Um so super excited. And I'd say the the most exciting part of this marathon build is just a lot of first for me, which is super uh exciting.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Yes, you know, I really quick, I remember having you earlier on my podcast, and I was, I remember you specifically talking about moving up from the 10K to the half marathon, and I mentioned marathon to you, and you were like, oh my gosh, I guess we'll see. You know, I mean, to be next to Sarah Hall and like you are there now, you are there. So I have to give you a major kudos and congratulations because you've just been crushing it in your racing since I've spoken to you. And it's just very inspiring to see. I'm really excited for you.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Thank you. Yeah, we spoke uh 2021 um in like May. So before I was getting ready to run my first uh track trial. So a lot has changed since then in now, but it's been just really fun. And like I said, just trying to take in all these firsts. So I appreciate you following my journey.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yeah, of course. It's very inspiring. I love it. Um thank you for sharing. Erica, let's go to you.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Um, I would say since I've done a number of marathons, um, the most exciting thing for me is running with first-timers, uh, first-time marathonners and having like sharing their their firsts. So um that's always really cool. But also just kind of encouraging them and like I don't know, it's like, and Denise, I'm sure will say the same thing, but it's like having, you know, a child who's out there doing something in the world. So it's super fun sharing my experience, I would say. And then just um getting time with friends, like long runs are just a great way to spend time with people. And uh, you know, it's still a it's still a challenge, I have to say, even after doing over 50 marathons, it's still a challenge every training season, um, especially for me in the summertime in the heat. Um, so I guess the other most exciting thing for me is that summer is over and our marathon New York should hopefully be good weather.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

You're not a fan of the humidity. I'm taking it.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

No, and the older, the older I get, the worse it is.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Really? I don't know. Yeah, it's not good. The marathon always keeps us curious.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Keep you on your toes, yep.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Yeah, especially the training. But um, that's the beauty of it, right? Yeah, for sure. Thank you for sharing that. Um, Denise, let's go over to you.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Yeah, so kind of um going along with what Erica said. So I've been marathoning for 28 years, and I've been around the block a lot. So what really gets me excited is again seeing my first timers every time they hit a huge milestone run because you get more and more confidence, and you're rightfully freaked out the night before, but then they do it. And on the other, and then the best part is when um I don't know, maybe it was like three or four weeks back, and they would say, Oh, it's only a 12 miler, it's only a 14 miler. And then the other beautiful thing is when my many timers, um, they're inspiring my first timers, and they're telling them it's gonna be okay, you're gonna have crappy runs, just shake it off. So it's it's um seeing what was gifted to us, go full circle with the next freshman class.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

No, absolutely. I love that, and um, you know, I'm sure it's amazing to run alongside your runners as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to it. I have a bunch of folks doing um Chicago and New York and London. So I'll be there.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Yes, can't wait for Chicago. Good to see you there. Uh, so that was, you know, very, very that was a great um, you know, intro. Uh so just being that we're all a little bit, you know, we have a different background, um, let's go back to Emily Durgan. I would love to hear, you know, and you could say as much as you want about this. Um I guess, you know, in comparison to other training you've done in the past, and just like being at the level you're at, do you do your long runs with people? Do you do them solo? Um, you know, are all of them like do all of them have quality mileage? Do you do any, I don't want to say junk miles, but any, you know, really slow, easy effort runs? Uh I would love to just hear your take.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah, for sure. So coming from a pro, we do run a lot of easy miles. Every week I do a quality long run, and then the following week I'll do just like an easy long run. So, for instance, this past Sunday, the 22 miles, um, there was like no pace prescription. It was just get into a good groove. And I'm really lucky I live in Flagstaff, Arizona. So there's tons of runners here. I actually did my entire 22 um run with Alfine, who also lives here in Flagstaff, um, who is sponsored by Hoka and on NAZ. So exciting just to kind of like pick her brain and run alongside her for, you know, over two and a half hours. Um, but with that being said, the previous week I had more of like a prescribed long run where it was very case specific and I picked it up the second half, put on my uh racing shoes. So yeah, we're doing a variety of um very specific long runs and then just getting in the mileage time on feet. But overall, my training hasn't changed a ton. Like I said, I I ran um a half last uh last January, and we thought the training was really great going into that half. So we kind of just kept the same type of um mindset. You know, I'm not running crazy high mileage right now, just really getting in those quality runs. And yeah, we want to come away from this first one being like, we could have done more, not we overdid it. And that's actually the same approach that we're gonna go into the race. We want to finish and be like, I love this distance. You know, next time let's try to, let's try to red line maybe a little bit longer. But for the first one, my coach and I are just like, we want to finish and be like, okay, there was a lot more that we could have done. So I'm I'm really happy that he wanted to take that approach because I was nervous about um running high mileage and all these firsts. So yeah, like like I said, it's just a ton of new firsts and just enjoying it and hopefully going to cross the finish line and be excited for the next one.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Yes, I love that attitude. And just before I move on, you know, I have to say I admire that. You are not, you know, you're not crazy fixated on, oh, I need to get to like 120 miles a week, because even though you are at that level, uh progressing yourself and you know, working with like a coach, what you're doing, and you know, just customizing your training to like meet you where you're at in your journey, because this is your first marathon, um, is everything a marathon's about. And so just like being okay with whatever mileage you're at to optimize your performance here um ultimately, right? And keep it fun to an extent. I know it's gonna hurt. But yeah, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

And maybe, you know, in two years' time, I will be able to run those weeks at 115, 120. But um, just for this first one, it was really about staying healthy and not, like I said, overdoing it. So yeah, it's you always want to have um room to grow and room to improve. So that's kind of the mindset behind this first one.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Yes. How is your energy? How is your energy pen training for the marathon? I just have to ask because it's a lot, regardless of the mileage.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, for sure. And honestly, like I called my dad like last week and I'm like, I don't know if I'm not training hard enough, but like I feel great. Like, um, but the like that's the funny thing is like I I sometimes worry that marathon training, people are like, you have to feel tired, you need to like be, you know, every run should feel and like I don't know. Like I kind of disagree with that. Like if you are feeling that crappy, you might need to kind of uh readjust. And like I understand, like, sure, 22 miles on Sunday, Monday morning run, you know, maybe it's gonna be a little bit slower. But if you're like getting in this hole where it's like seven, 10 days you're feeling like that, um, that's probably not a good sign. So um I no, so I I think that sometimes marathon training has this like uh bad reputation that you should feel crappy. And um, you know, my coach checks in every day. And when I finish a workout and I say, you know, maybe on the front end my legs felt a little heavy, but towards the end, I was I felt much better. And he said, Good, you're responding well. Um, so I think that that's like the biggest thing. My energy levels have, you know, it's it's kind of like they ebb and flow as they should. It's they kind of, you know, you kind of get down into a little valley and then you want to come back up. So that's kind of um the trends that I'm having. And I think that, you know, between him and I, we're right on track. So if you're uh too much uh on the downside, then you might want to back off a little bit so that you can self come back up.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

Yeah, I I think those are excellent points. It sounds like you work closely with your coach and you really listen to your body, and that's why you're not hitting walls and you're energized and smiling because that's how any runner should be training for anything optimally. It's very hard to like find that and strike that perfect balance, as I'm sure you know. But yeah, uh yay, let's stay energized, let's keep it up.

unknown 13:05

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

Yeah. Um, and thank you for sharing all of that, Erica. Um, so how about you?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Um, so I think I think the original question is how do I do my long runs? Is that was that the yeah. The question. Um, so I'm a little bit old school because I'm a little bit old. Um, but back when I started training, I was just talking about this. We did our in Chicago for the Chicago Marathon, we had the ready-to-run 20 miler, which is like a simulated race basically. Um, and you just join a group and run. And I was running, I would say probably 20 to 30 seconds slower than my goal pace for the marathon, which is not really the conventional wisdom anymore. But um, back in the day I used to run everything fast. So um, you know, I don't run as fast as I used to, but I still do okay for my age. And it was fun to like run with the this group um and just to kind of talk to them about, you know, how it, how people train now and what group they're in and what goal they have and all of that. So I I typically probably don't go as slow as I should. Um, but I'm pretty energetic. Um I've um I don't have I don't really struggle with my energy. I'm so happy to hear Emily say that um she feels really good and that you know she doesn't feel worn out because I think I agree, like so many people overdo it. So I feel like I since I have a lot of experience, I I've reached a point where I know when enough is enough and I know when I have to pull back and I know you know when I can pick it up and that kind of thing. But I'm excited to hear, you know, in Emily's first experience. She's she's going for it, and I know she's gonna finish with a huge smile on her face and and then also you know have the ability to know what to do next time.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

So yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

And now I know who I'm cheering for in the in New York.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Yeah, I can't wait to be at mile 19. That's where I always stand because it's an open place, and Emily would be screaming. I'm gonna, oh my gosh, I'm so excited. I love the New York City Marathon.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah, mile 19 is awesome, a such a good place to to watch because there aren't that many people there.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Exactly. That's why that's a place where you really need the help. I know, I exactly, yeah. I mean, I remember seeing like Molly Seidel like fly up Fifth Avenue last year, and she was like, she was, she was fine. And then Shane Flanagan after her.

unknown 15:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

It was cool. It was really cool. It was special.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

I mean, that's that's the part I think in the New York Marathon, though. Like if you go too fast off of maybe Emily, this is a little bit of a take note for the course. Um, First Avenue is slightly uphill. So mile 19 is at the top of First Avenue. Um, Queensborough Bridge is like mile 15 to 16. And then you come into Manhattan, and no matter what place you're in, you're gonna feel like you're first because the crowd is just unbelievable. Like my first New York, I ran a 345 and I felt like I must be first because so many people were cheering for me. I had no idea what was happening. I was like, I don't understand what's going on. But but then you come onto First Avenue and the crowd on both sides, I mean, Allie and Denise can tell you, is just epic, like unbelievable. But it's also slightly uphill for three miles. So I always tell everybody just like try to cool it. Um, I run in the middle a lot of times, unless I have friends on one side or the other, I just run straight in the middle because I love the energy, but I also know that if I get caught up in it, I'm gonna be sprinting up First Avenue, and then I get to mile 19 where Alley is, and I'm you know, gonna hit the wall. So that's like my my first course tip for you is definitely like enjoy it, take it in, you know. Kind of I I feel like I run in the middle and I just take in the energy and just carry it with me so that after mile 20 I can use it.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Because that's how it's beginning.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

I mean, when you get into Manhattan, I don't know, Denise and Allie, I'm sure you could say the same thing. It is just like it's like an out-of-body experience. It's like so because it's very quiet on the bridge. There's no spectators, so there's very few people up there cheering. And it's just the people in the race, and where you are, there won't be that many people near you. Um, even if you're with a pack, it won't be a ton of people. But when you come down, you start hearing it. Like as you're coming down the bridge, you start hearing the sound.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

I got to chill. It's just thinking, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah. And then it's just like, and it and you think too, like, okay, I did that one time and it's not gonna be like that the next time, the next time, the next time, every time. And I always now like so many people wear headphones that I tell people, like, if I'm running near somebody, I tell them, take your headphones out or turn your music off. And you know, people look at you like what? And I'm like, just do it. And then they like, you know, smile at you and they're like, oh my God, this is so crazy. It's like, you just want to experience it.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Yeah, and you're so right about the course. Um, just that's a we're gonna talk about the course in a little, and just to give listeners on here um suggestive tips for the New York City Marathon. But the net it's a net uphill. So after the Queensborough, yeah, the the cloud's electric. The crowd is electric, but um, it is a little uphill. Fifth Avenue gets tough, but like that you're you're prepared for that. I mean, obviously, like it's a lot of mental, it's a lot of physical, but try to follow the blue line. I don't know if if anyone's told you that or you know, it prevents the weaving.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yes, yeah, yeah. I've heard about the blue line. How be glued to it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

You know, so you don't like because like that could add like milliseconds, you know. I'm sure you know. Yeah, yeah. Um okay, Denise, your long run.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah. Um, I just want to add real quick that um, you know, I've done New York seven times. I love New York. If it was my first, it would be my favorite. But I love it so much that I am running for a charity because I do not want to miss out on it. And I actually think the crowd is louder than your music. Like, even if you have them on, that's what I love about. That's one of the many things I love about New York. But I am also like so excited to hear, Emily, that um that you and your coach are already talking about number two, three, and four, and that you are not like so, I'm assuming you're not like so fine-tuned. I have to get this time because um I work with a lot of first timers and I'm telling them you can never recreate the all the feels of your first marathon, and you have gazillion to race. And I find that it's so I'm just so excited to hear that about you because I feel like when we zero in so fine-tune that um, you know, it's almost like uh David Goggins, he's like, why put a governor down? What if you can do better that day? And then um, what if you don't do as well that day? Then you're beating yourself up. So you're just gonna go with what the day brings you. And it's gonna be awesome. I can't, I'm so excited. This is your that you pick New York for your first. Um, so back to my long runs. So I kind of mix them up. Um, I actually do one mile repeats in my long runs. I started doing this like three three or four years ago because I feel like that is the most effective way to improve your time because what is a race? It's one mile repeats without rest. So I'll do like five miles easy warm-up. And then like tomorrow, that's when I'm meeting a friend for long run. So five miles out easy, and then mile six is one mile fast, and then like 45 seconds to a minute rest, and then seven is fast. So I I just um I find that uh it it's uh I feel more um uh more of a rock star after surviving that. And then I also feel like um it's it's making me go faster and it makes it go by, it's more challenging than just you know, an out and back long run or you know, um 20 seconds close. I don't know. It's just it's more challenging and fun to me to do it that way, to have mild repeats in my long run. So easy, easy on the front end repeats, and then easy on the back end.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

I that's an excellent point. And I just want to point out two things to the listeners on here, um, just because a lot was discussed, that it's amazing. There's so many different ways to train for a marathon that gets you to the end result, and that's why it's so personalized. And really, if you have the opportunity to work with a coach or work with friends or run with friends, leverage those opportunities because you just heard around the horn here how many of us train differently. And that's just you know, hard is hard for everyone, regardless of pace. Uh, you just want to finish your race. I didn't mean to sound like Dr. Seuss, I swear to God. But like that's a dealtment thing is that's the important thing. And to Denise's point, I love how you said um to Emily, you know, wow, you're already talking about marathons two and three. I just smiled so hard because, you know, to all of you first-time marathoners on here, Emily is an example of showing you how you should not define yourself by setting a pace for your first marathon. Enjoy it, enjoy the experience. Like you will never relive that. You don't know what it's like yet. And get excited for the journey because a race is not finite. You'll run more marathons, you'll do more races, and you know, regardless if it's more marathons or not, just training is an ongoing journey, and I think marathons are kind of like bucketed in that. And so I just I really loved um Emily, you know, how you, you know, that was a very optimistic like approach. That is an optimistic approach and answer. Um, and yeah, you just seem like you have an overall great attitude after your races as well. Just following your Instagram and just yeah, everything you say, I love. I love it. And Denise loves all of that. Yeah. Yeah. No problem. So we're going to switch gears a little bit and talk about. I would love to hear Emily. What's your number one thing you're doing for recovery right now while training for the New York City Marathon?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah, that is a great question again, because as I'm at the professional level, I have a lot of great resources that I work with. I actually actually recently, not sponsored, I bought it, the Aura ring. So I've been actually wearing this and I was putting buying the aura ring on for so long. So I was like, oh, I don't need another thing to obsess over in my life because I'm already so dialed in. But my aura ring's been really helping me measure my heart rate variability and then also my resting heart rate. Like I kind of explained those like ebbs and flows in my energy level. My aura ring can almost like confirm that. So with my resting heart rate, um, you know, I kind of have figured out where my resting heart rate is. After a hard session, it goes up for a couple days. But as long as it comes back down before my session, we know that my body is recovering properly. So ring is a tool using to kind of confirm that I'm, you know, recovering well. And then honestly, it is my full-time job. So after my hard sessions, I get to come home and just put my feet up and relax and getting a lot of sleep, um, eating well. And yeah, just in recovering, like as in just resting has been like my biggest tools. Just trying not to be on my feet and um doing unnecessary, unnecessary things during the day uh to really optimize that running I got into. And then again, just fueling, fueling, fueling, just making sure that I'm um eating obviously healthy. But again, just if my body's craving something, like, you know, after my workout today, I wanted to get a coffee and a scone, getting that, but knowing that I will have to eat my healthy meal later, but making sure that I'm just yeah, um, fueling properly, but also if I'm crazy something, I'm gonna make sure I I get that too, because it probably needs my means my body needs a little extra sugar or fat.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Yeah, replacing your glycogen stores with carbs and that scone sounds delicious. Like, yeah, and your body needs it. Your body's like constantly like it's revit your metabolism is probably super high and you're running a lot. And I love what you said about recovery, not being on your feet. And hey, everyone on here, that means you don't need to do excess cross training when you marathon train. Maybe there's a time and a place for it, just not when your mileage is heavy and not when you're going into the competition phase. Denise, I know you could probably say something or two about that, but we'll wait till we get to you. Um, so thank you, Emily. That was very insightful. Um, yeah, I had another question about recovery, but it's I drew a blank, so it'll come back to me. Um, in the meantime, Erica, let's go to you.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Um, I'm a big fan of the Epsom salt bath. Um, and also I monitor my heart rate as well. Um, and especially as I mentioned before, with humidity is not my my favorite, and I I have a harder time recovering from the hot runs. I've also been um really trying to work on my fueling for my long runs to make sure that I am not as depleted, like especially with electrolytes, um, you know, for the next days and then making sure, you know, after the runs that I'm eating the right food and um, you know, replenishing my electrolytes and stuff like that. I think that's all really key. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Uh and Denise, what about you? Well, again, I've had lots of practice. I just did a marathon on Saturday or Sunday. Um, and what works for me, and I've like fine-tuned it, is definitely an ice bath. Luckily, Eric and I are right near Lake Michigan. So I'll just stand in the water and with the water like mid-thigh for about 15 minutes instead of um sitting in an ice tub or a tub full of ice. And then um, the other thing is nutrition. So I'm a huge um proponent and believer in tailwind rebuild, which is um, you know, our glycogen stores are depleted, and then we've created these micro tears in our muscles. So our muscles need protein. So tailwind rebuild, I had it for all my runners after their 20 plus miler, and it's like miracle powder. I had it right after my marathon, and then I drove home for three hours and my legs were fine on Monday, and then I got a massage um yesterday too. And then the other thing is um one of my friends, so you know, they used to say when you did a marathon, if it was your first, you should take like a month off. And, you know, even when I first did mine, I don't think I walked for I walk like Frankenstein for like a week. And my friend, he always says that motion is lotion. So the day after the marathon, no matter what marathon it is, I recommend to my runners and people I meet that, you know, if you can move 10 to 15 minutes the day after the next two days, I should say, because motion is lotion, it's that's preventing your body, your muscles from getting tighter and tighter. So nutrition, ice bath, motion is lotion, and massage.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Yeah. I love that. Yeah, movement is medicine is another one. We could go through this all day. Yes. Um, okay. So I love that. Um, and I remember the question, and I want to ask all you this because I want the listeners on here to understand how important recovery is during the taper. Emily Durgan, um, during the taper, you know, I I would like to, I'm sure I'm sure you know, you chop down a mileage, um, you know, and you give your body a little extra rest. But I know you're kind of not there yet. You're a little before it, but during your training on your down weeks, let's say, when you haven't really felt up to it during like during training and you maybe needed an extra rest day. Have you encountered any of those days?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Yeah, yeah. Actually, um, I have those days kind of not even just in marathon training. I've kind of always done this. Actually, I think it was two Mondays ago, I took like a full day of just cross-training. Um, you know, because my Mondays are normally prescribed just like double easy runs. So I was just feeling a little extra tired from my long run. Um, I ran on some uneven surface. So my knee just seemed a little sore. So instead of like running, I, you know, got in the pool for 40 minutes in the morning and then, you know, went on the elliptical for 30 minutes in the evening, um, just kind of to still get a little bit of cardio work in, but to let my body recover. And I came back the following or like the rest of the week and felt great. So yeah, I tend to kind of do that a lot in my training. And obviously, taking a day with no running, yeah, my mileage at the end of the week is probably going to be 15 miles lower because on a normal day I get 15 miles in. But you can't really look at it that way because taking that Monday off, you know, maybe maybe there was something going on in my knee that just needed to kind of calm down. It was a little inflamed. And um, if I would have kept running, maybe it would have turned into tendinitis or something. So yeah, um, because I've been in the sport for a while, you know, even though I haven't run marathons, I have dealt with injuries and little pains. And when I was younger, I used to just like power through and you know, I'd have a sore cap and I'd keep running. And I I've learned as I've gotten into my late 20s, like you can't do that. So I think um supplementing with cross-training or just taking a full day rest um is super important in any type of training builds.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Okay, that was very beautiful. I can so happy you said that. To any runner on here, that just, you know, that holds true that you know, rest days are meant for a reason. Running rest days, you could cross-train, you cannot jump around and survive and still maintain your fitness. But once you run yourself into an injury, you can't get yourself out of it. So it's better to pull back when you can versus going the opposite way and having the hard go hard or go home mentality and just you know, powering through that. So, Emily, thank you. That was really great advice. Um, Erica, what what's your take on, you know, taking a rest day if you need it or running rest day?

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yeah, no, that's one of my one of the things that I think is best about kind of the new conventional thinking is like there's no more no pain, no gain philosophy of like, well, it's supposed to hurt. You're supposed to be sore. You're you know, like I love the fact that we're training people to say, like, hey, if you have, if your knee is tweaked from something you did yesterday and you just keep running on it because you're like, well, I have to train, you might not make it to the race. So I'm a huge, huge fan of, you know, listen to your body. Um, I've done it the wrong way so many times and run myself into injuries that now I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna like pay attention. So I I completely agree with what Emily said. And I mean, the taper makes you crazy. I think that's another um, that's another uh Emily, uh tip for you. Everything's gonna bother you. You're gonna have every, every like psychosomatic problem that you've ever had. I mean, you know, because you've done big races before. Um, like everybody always feels like, you know, junk the two weeks before the marathon, and you know, you feel like you're losing your fitness, you feel like this hurts and this hurts, and most of it hopefully will be psychosomatic.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Um the tapers make us crazy, but I'm relating to all these things. I'm I'm in the taper right now for Chicago. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

I think Denise, is Denise, are you doing Chicago too? Yeah. Yeah, so we're all three doing Chicago too.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Crazy.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Oh my gosh. We're only crazy when we separate.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Well, I'm doing the I'm doing Chicago as training for New York, so I haven't been training for New York yet.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Oh no, I'm doing it, I'm racing it. It'll be fun.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yeah, well, you're gonna have an awesome race. Yeah, but the taper, it is important to remind people that like you need to taper and you all the work, like I what's what's the expression, haze in the barn. Yeah, like you're done. The training is over. Now that what you have to do is keep yourself healthy for two more weeks until we get to the marathon. And that's like the key thing to remember, I think, for for listeners who are doing their first marathon. Like anything you can do from now on, you can you can help yourself by taking care of your body. You can hurt yourself by doing too much. I mean, that's the key thing to remember.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

Says the 54-55 marathon finisher on this call.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

And I'm sure the hundred and something marathon finisher, Denise, can tell you exactly the same thing. There you go. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Denise, yeah. Tell us a little bit more about what we have in here.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Yeah, so um kind of um adding on to what Emily had talked about, how you know Monday you just weren't feeling it and you swam and cross-trained or elliptical. And I even tell my runners that this is outside of the taper in the training season. If you have like, and this is like six, it's usually like six or seven weeks before the marathon because your eye is focused on the prize, all your energy is focused on that goal race. And it's almost like being in a semester of training instead of a quarter, quarters go by faster. But um about six or seven weeks before the race, some of my runners like they're tired every time, like three or four runs in a row. And that's where I tell them just consciously take like three or four days off because it is a mental and physical reset. And then that fifth day you come back, you're gonna have a stronger run. So it's kind of like a mini taper, it's a taste of a taper. And then in the taper, exactly what Erica said is that there's nothing you can do now that's gonna help. Like, don't cram for your final. If you didn't get the 20 in, now is not the time to do it. Um, and it's you know, now is the time to get your your head in the game and your your body ready. Like, I'm again a huge fan of deep tissue massages now. I call it a massage sandwich. Schedule a massage a couple like two or three days before the marathon, let them know you're doing a marathon on whatever day. And then the other side of the sandwich, massage sandwich, is get one one or two days after, and again, let them know you had just run a marathon. And then also I tell my runners, like, look at how far you've come. Like, this is the only time you can look, you know, you can look in the rear view mirror, so to speak. So, even like my beginner plan, it's 555 miles for the whole 20-week season. So that is like running from Chicago to Memphis. So I feel like a lot of times we don't really um see how much we've done because it's just captured on this inanimate object on our wrist. So that's where I tell people, you know, go back and look at how many miles you've run since you hit submit. Look at like your biggest mileage week. And and then also like think of those heart, you know, get your mind ready. Also be ready. Because in my all my years of marathoning, I think I know six people who never hit a wall. So more than likely you're gonna hit a wall. So in this taper, you have lots of time to get ready to tell yourself, like, what are you gonna tell yourself when you hit the wall? Um, and then I tell my runners, like, if you know, you're stumped, you don't know what, you don't know what you're gonna say. And I go, well, imagine if I'm running next to you and I want I tell you that I want to quit and this hurts and this sucks. What would you tell me? And then rewind it and tell yourself. So just um yeah, it's all the work is done. Now it's just time to don't try anything new. Even if you didn't like do Pilates in your training, don't start it now. And then also get your get your head a little like start watching inspiring movies. I can rattle off a list, but get your head in the game too to drop the hammer and get your legs um loose and give back to them for all that you've done, all they've done for you this season. That's a long answer.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

I love that. I love um the advice for beginner marathoners. You know, I do believe there is a way to not bonk um if you train properly, but it's also, I believe it has to do with at a certain level training your gut um and also like you know using glycogen properly. But that's that's a conversation for another time, but it is avoidable. It is, it's just really hard to avoid because you really never know. Lots of practice and training, right? Lots of practice and training. So this is the last question, ladies. Um, before I wrap up, and I'm not gonna ask why you said yes to me on the podcast, because I know it's because I asked all of you to be here. So if let's start with Emily, if you could give an aspiring marathoner, maybe a New York City marathoner who's waiting to run the marathon for the first time right now and listening to this, um, what piece of advice would you give?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Well, I'm the one that needs the advice.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Well, like, yeah, but you know, okay, fine. We could give advice to you, but you've been training. You know, you've been putting in the work, and like we talked about, one marathon doesn't define you. It's literally the training and the journey that makes you a champ.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. More just advice on on racing is I always try to just show up. Yes, yes. Show up to the line confident and kind of um, you know, like you were just saying, like all the work that you put in, just like stand on the start line and be like, wow, like I'm really proud of myself for for running this 20-mile run, for you know, get getting in those hard workouts. And even if it was like a cold morning in the fall, I still got out there and just kind of like taking a moment before you start to, you know, enjoy all that and feel proud of yourself and have a little like chip on your shoulder when you start when you get to the start line. So it's it's funny. You do get a lot of your confidence in in your training. So I try to bring that to the start line and um, yeah, just focus on myself and and be confident when I when the gun goes off.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

Amazing. Love that. Oh, can't wait. Great advice, thank you, Erica.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Um, well, just for the marathon in general, if it's your first marathon, um, and this goes for you, Emily. Um, it's your first marathon, it's a personal best. It's gonna like you you're never gonna have that experience again. So just try to take in the little things, like, you know, um, especially for New York, there's so much logistics, it's like planes, trains, and automobiles. It's like crazy, right? And people are people like are annoyed by that. But to me, I think it's awesome. Like you get to have this experience. And whenever, you know, like you're going across on the ferry, maybe, or you're, you know, taking a bus and you're with these people and every people from all over the world, right? And the conversations and the things you hear in the New York Marathon, it's like nowhere else ever. And it's it's your first marathon, so just enjoy it. Um, but respect the distance. So I I'd say start slower than you think you need to and finish strong. The energy in the New York marathon is, I mean, mind-blowing. So it's so, so easy to go too fast in the beginning. I've run over 50 marathons. I always go too fast in the beginning. Like, I just like the excitement gets to you. So just like hold back a little bit so that you can really enjoy it at the end. And then specific American specifically to the New York marathon, well, the first avenue um off the bridge is advice is one that I give. But I also always tell people the first mile of the New York Marathon is uphill. The second mile of the New York Marathon is downhill, and they're it's the biggest hill of the whole race. So your first mile is gonna be slow, slower than you think. The second mile is gonna be super fast, faster than you think. And don't freak out. Don't look at your garment, don't freak out. Like, mile three is where you set your pace and you know, find your group. And you'll see people, you know. Well, Emily, you won't see these people because you'll be in the front, but you'll see people like that have, you know, pace times that are so far behind you, and you'll be like, what is this person doing in front of me? Like, am I going too slow? What am I doing? It's like just like pay attention in mile three to get to the right pace. Mile one slow, mile two fast, and then mile three. Okay, dial it in and then enjoy every single step of it because it is awesome.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Yeah, and run your own race. I love that. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Also, and I don't know, Allie, too. If you have um show notes, I can send you a link. I have a blog post that has all my New York Marathon course advice.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Yeah, that that would be amazing. Um, yeah, I forgot about the uphill on the Staten Island Bridge. I mean the Verizon Bridge. Like just because you're so like your adrenaline is like, you know, through the roof. Um, we didn't even talk about Brooklyn really quick. So the lesson is the best. Yeah, it's the best. It is the best. Just it's like a mixing pot culture run. Think of it that way. And you see the biggie smalls mural, it's amazing. And just when you get, I want to say to mile like six, there are roaring crowds, like through Carroll Gardens, through oh my gosh, through Quentin Hills, Williamsburg, that's my neighborhood. It's crazy, but amazing energy. Um, and that's right before you go into Long Island City, and then you hit the um the Pulaski Bridge, like right around, right before Long Island City. And then that's when the next halfway, that's a halfway mark. Yes, yeah. It's amazing. Oh my gosh. So excited for you. Um Denise.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

Yeah, so um just a couple things that I tell all my runners, no matter what marathon, is that um, you know, I'm a big fan of negative split. Again, the only time being negative is positive. And so the way to do that is I'm on your shoulder and I tell you the race doesn't start when you cross the chipmat, it starts about mile 18 or 20. So you have to decide when you want to be the passer or the passee. Do you want to pass everyone? Because this is from my own experience where I would do this, where I, you know, you're tapered, the energy is electric in the corrals, and then the race is on, and you are like a rock star in your own parade. So, do you want to pass everyone with that cheap free energy? And then later in the race, this would be me. All these people would be passing me that I passed earlier. So you already know in the latter part of the race it's going to get harder mentally. So why not save spring in your step? And then you'll like if you save spring in your step when it gets hard, when your legs aren't listening to your body, then you'll be the one passing people and that will lift you. The other thing is no matter what happens on race day, it's like you just have to think about, you know, whether you hit your time or you don't. You still are part of 1% of the population. And also think about your training season. Think about other training seasons. Was every day rainbows and unicorns? No. Running and racing is just like life. So if you don't get the time you train for, just try to be try to be kind to yourself and then just tailor swift it, shake it off and go find another marathon three or four weeks later because you're at your training peak. But just um again, like just go back the training season, every day wasn't an a rock star day. So we can't truly transform that to race day. Some day like I just did my 136th marathon. And if I thought every if I thought every race was going to be great, I would not still be doing this. So again, just like life, good days, bad days, good races, not so good races. And I can't wait to see you guys.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Yeah, so exciting. I know just to add, like that's that's an excellent, you know, point. I think also first-time marathoners, it's really good to have a goal of finishing strong and injury-free, but showing up to the start line, as we've all talked about, feeling that same way. And maybe, you know, also just having in mind a goal after your marathon, like maybe a shorter distance. I personally am a very big fan of taking a break from marathon training and working on your strength, power, and speed during marathon off season so that you could ultimately run a faster marathon and maybe see some talent in yourself in shorter distances and shorter events and just become a well-rounded runner. Um, that's the beauty of the sport, and there's so many opportunities to improve. And just that's also another way to not get so down on yourself, I feel like, because if you have things to look forward to and just different things to try, it keeps the journey just very um varied and dynamic. So yeah. Well, ladies, thank you so much for joining me on here today. It was a pleasure, you know, speaking with all of you and learning more about you. And I'm so excited for you to run the New York City Marathon, Denise and Emily, and uh the listeners on here, you better cheer for them as well because we Erica and I will definitely be cheering for them. No, I'm running too. Oh my gosh, Erica will be cheering for all three of them. And this is gonna be her 23rd marathon, New York City. My 22nd, my 22nd. I think I'm sorry, I just spoke earlier. I am marathon brain, obviously. Okay, 22nd New York City Marathon. So we're cheering for all three of these ladies. Um, and I'm really excited for you to just take the course and have fun out there. And yeah, for the aspiring marathoners and soon to be New York City finishers on here. I hope you found this episode valuable. So thank you so much, ladies, and I will see everyone on the same time, same place next week on the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you, and good luck, Emily.