Nikita is joined by Co-Hosts Mary Rossi & Nolan DiFrancesco from Your World, Your Money, a podcast produced by the Global Thinking Foundation, which is a nonprofit focused on building a world free from economic abuses, where accessible, informed, and equitable economic participation is available to all.
In this episode, we cover:
Resources:
Nikita is joined by Co-Hosts Mary Rossi & Nolan DiFrancesco from Your World, Your Money, a podcast produced by the Global Thinking Foundation, which is a nonprofit focused on building a world free from economic abuses, where accessible, informed, and equitable economic participation is available to all.
In this episode, we cover:
Resources:
Hey 3rd Decade community. We're happy to have you here. I'm your host Nikita Wolff. And today I'm joined by the hosts of"Your World, Your Money", a podcast produced by the Global Thinking Foundation, which is a nonprofit focused on building a world free from economic abuses, where accessible, informed, and equitable economic participation is available to all. Today, we're gonna be discussing a difficult topic, but an important one: Economic Abuse. Being that a big part of what Global Thinking Foundation is doing is focused on this issue. I figured they would be the perfect guests to speak to it today. We're joined by two people from their team, Mary Rossi and Nolan DiFrancesco. Thank you both so much for being here with me today.
Nolan:Thanks for having us on!
Mary:Excited to be here!
Nikita:So to start us off, how is economic abuse defined?
Nolan:Economic abuse is this category of a behavior that seeks to control a person's ability to acquire, use, or maintain their economic resources. And threatens somebody's self sufficiency, their economic empowerment. People might be familiar with the term"financial abuse" and that's a component of it. When one person's coercively controlling another person's finances, economic abuse is just kind of a broader umbrella term that includes financial abuse, but also includes other types of behaviors, such as, you know, one person stopping another person from having a job or being able to use the car to go to work- kind of a broader situation of their economic self-sufficiency and one person's coercive control, like negative coercive, controlling behavior, stopping that person from participating in those activities.
Nikita:Who do we see suffering from this form of abuse most frequently?
Mary:When it comes to this type of abuse? I think it's so important that we understand that there's really no way just yet of measuring this. And the reason I say that is because when we think about other types of abuse and we think about policies and we think about getting funding to change that status quo, there's always metrics to back that up to say, these are the communities where this is really prevalent, or this is the place that this is really prevalent, or this is the demographic. We don't really have that for economic abuse. We don't really have that for financial abuse either. So for anybody listening, that's thinking, oh, well, what about the subsets of it? We don't really, we don't really have that. And we don't have a, a good measure of it. So in general terms, the group of people that's going to be affected and suffer the most from economic abuse is most commonly women. And there are other categories in communities that are affected by economic abuse. And that's something that we think is really important that we don't forget about those communities. There's a lot of parts of the community that are strongly affected by this there's business situations where this is gonna be common, but in general, you'll see it most commonly in women. And, and this is most commonly in heterosexual couples. So in inter-partner relationships, and you even see this sometimes in families. So I'm sure some people will be familiar with elder financial abuse. So that's between family members and to go back to the beginning, that's what makes it so difficult to talk about. We don't, we don't have a way of saying this is 100, everything Mary just said is 100% spot on because we don't really have the way of measuring it and saying,"yeah, here are the numbers to back that up". We have the experience to say these are the communities we experience having these, um, situations and having, abuse as a part of the a busive situation that they're in. C uz that's something I'm sure we'll get into. But economic abuse is most commonly a part of some other type of abuse, whether it's emotional, psychological, p hysical sexual, like financial abuse, economic abuse is usually paired up with another type of abuse. So it's really, really crucial at some point for us to be able to measure this and say, this is the group, these are the numbers we need to c hange this. And of course I highlight that because it's something that's really important to us and something we're doing. A lot of other academics and organizations are working on this also. And just t o bring that in, those are the communities, women, some portions of the community in some business situations, in some family situations. And I really, really hope soon that I can tell everyone exactly the communities and say, we've got the metrics to back that up and tell you for sure, these are the people that we really wanna dive in and say, let's change t he status quo for this community.
Nikita:Yeah, I imagine without those metrics, it is really difficult because it can live as such this subtle thing. If it is usually paired with another form of abuse.
Mary:Absolutely. Something that you mentioned that I think is really important to highlight in the us. 96% of abusive situations have economic abuse involved. In Australia, they did a similar survey. 99% of abusive situations have economic abuse involved and they were only able to talk to abuse victims. What would happen if we could measure economic abuse regardless and make that change. Just imagine what that could mean.
Nikita:Wow.
Nolan:There's some cases where economic abuse is pretty clear cut. Right? And like Mary mentioned in domestic violence situations in specific abuse situations, almost always the data we have indicates that economic abuse is a big component to that. And it makes sense if one partner is coercively controlling another partner- abusive in any number of ways, expressing violence in any number of ways, usually part of that control certainly resolves around financial and economic abuse. And one of the big reasons, this is such a huge problem is that it's assessed that financial abuse is the biggest reason why individual might remain in an abusive relationship. And of course each situation's different. There's a lot of nuance and context that's important. But broadly speaking, usually financial resources are a huge component, keeping someone feeling stuck in a problematic situation. So it's, it's really important to one highlight that problem, identify what it looks like and identify the resources that are most effective in terms of providing resources to victims and abuse survivors. But as Mary also mentioned that beyond that it's kind of a murkier world. Like financial abuse can occur in just a huge number of different situations. And it's less studied the specific context of abuse, severe abuse in which one, individual, usually women, seek out services to help with that abusive situation. The best data we have, and we've collected some of this we've looked at others, is that financial abuses actually far broader problem than we would've guessed. We, we would like to think it is the issue is as Mary alluded to it's, it's really difficult to measure. Uh, there's some solid measurement tools out there that are really designed specifically for domestic abuse situations, domestic violence situations. In our current research, we try to use kind of the gold standard of those measurements and try to expand it into a broader scope of the general population. And we ran into some issues which, you know, we can talk about, but bottom line right now, there's, we're in a situation where we know it's a big problem. Uh, we know it's a fairly extensive problem and we can use some better tools to, to better conceptually understand what's happening here and better measure it. So that's, that's where we're at.
Nikita:So how can you identify this in like a loved one's relationship and potentially offer help? If you see this within your own circle.
Mary:This is such a big question. So I have a feeling we might be here for a minute and to get it started. I think it's important to separate it out into how to identify it and then what you can do about it. Because a lot of the things that a loved one or a friend could do are actually similar to the things that they themselves would do if they were in that situation. So identifying economic abuse in a loved one or a friend, and this goes back to what no one was saying about how murky it can be. It's really difficult. It's really difficult to pick up on that, even if it's a friend or a loved one. So for example, if you go out to lunch with a friend and they're talking about this new relationship that of course you've heard all about and they make a comment about not being able to buy something because their partner said, you know, you shouldn't buy that. Well, think about how many times we hear sentences like that. We're not gonna think much of it and we're gonna, you know, keep going on about life because that's something that feels very familiar. So it can be very murky and very difficult to pick up on this, especially in the early stages of economic abuse, whether that economic abuse is in a business relationship, but especially in intimate partner relationships, because that's where it's particularly difficult. So early on when people are early on into the relationships, it's really hard to pick up on, especially if you're in the relationship- especially if it is a loved one. But as you get into some of the more significant abuses or as it might become more pronounced, or as it might become more pervasive in a person's relationship as a friend or a loved one, it's going to be easier to pick up on. And the most important thing to do is to ask lots of questions and always of course have the person's best interest in mind. I mean, presumably you're a friend and, or a loved one, but having their best interest in mind and asking lots of questions, how you'll actually find out, because culturally, a lot of these questions and a lot of these conversations, we have have them every day and don't think anything of them, but as you start to dive into them and ask more questions, that's when you'll start to pick up on things that sound a little bit off. And when I say a little bit off, it'll be things like"my partner asked me to set up all the bills in, in my name, but my partner is paying for all of them". Well, they've missed a bunch of payments. So now it's affecting my credit. This is a conversation you might be having with a loved one. And then if that friend or loved one says, and you know, I've asked them, but they won't let me pay that bill. There should be a lot wrong in that sentence."Let me" pay a bill? Right. So, in conversation, when you can start to pick up on these things, it's really just about asking a lot of questions when you have that person's best interest. And you really ask questions around some of these things that you're hearing. You might pick up on something that the other person has never even noticed or never even registered. And very candidly, it's gonna be very, very difficult to accept for a person in the situation that this might be happening. And I say that because in a lot of situations where economic abuse is present, and again, this can be business. This can be familial. This could be between intimate partners. A lot of times a of times emotional abuse is paired right up with financial or economic abuse. So there's a lot of gaslighting going on. There's a lot of"you know, trust me, I'm the one that knows what I'm doing" or cultural standards. I'm this person that's supposed to take care of this. There's a lot of things wrapped up in this that makes it really difficult for someone to accept. So let's say you do pick up on it. Well, even just coming to terms with this is gonna be really, really difficult and asking questions is always the best place to help figure it out for yourself, but also to highlight it for the other person that might be experiencing it.
Nolan:It's actually a little bit shocking looking at the statistics of how many people don't know of the concept of financial abuse and they don't know how to recognize it. And so right, whether you're experiencing something in your own life or whether you have people in your life who might potentially be in a economically abusive situation, the first step is just familiarizing yourself with the concept to, if you're listening to this podcast, you're, you're taking that step. You're understanding that that,"Hey, this is a problem". This is how you categorize conceptually, understand the problem. And then we can get into, you know, what you can do about it. But yeah, just understanding that this specific set behaviors is a big problem is really the first step.
Mary:And I think adding to that, because Nolan you're spot on, we already have so much trouble talking about finances in our world. We already have so much difficulty getting over the barrier and be like"so let's talk about money". So let's say we get over that hurdle talking about money in a way that insinuates insinuates blame of some kind. I am not saying that there is any blame in this, but think about how often we see in our culture. We see in our media where blame comes into an abuse conversation. Imagine how difficult that would be for someone to accept, or if, even for a person that's asking questions to realize. So no one has spot on it's really about education and then asking lots and lots of questions because it's gonna be a tough ride, cuz it, it is regardless. Money is hard to talk about and talking about it in a way that society has already given these connotations to it, that there's something wrong is gonna make it even more difficult even though, even though a person experiencing economic abuse, that they didn't do anything wrong,
Nikita:Right? Whenever you're early on in a relationship, if there are maybe any like early indications of this, like what are some red flags to look out for?
Mary:This is something I was actually gonna talk about a little bit later on. So I love that you asked when it comes to early on in a relationship and this is intimate partner. I assume that's what you're referring to an intimate relationship early on in those relationships. The most important thing to watch out for and to pay attention to is if somebody in that relationship is more or less saying that your empowerment to your finances is wrong. That sounds very vague. So for example, if you say that you have the ability and the desire to do something, if there's any kind of emotional manipulation or if there's any kind of gaslighting or if there's any kind of manipulation around that that says, no, that's wrong. That should be a red flag. And that should be a red flag. You mean? I mean like in the relationship, but especially around money. And again, that, that still sounds a bit vague and it's meant to, because it's very broad, it should cover a lot of conversations. But going back to the example around bills. If I'm in a relationship and we're early on and it's like, you know what, we love each other. Let's move in together. And I say, I wanna pay the electricity bill. I wanna put it in my name and I wanna pay for it. If somebody is going to make me feel wrong about that or tell me, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. I can take care of that for, but they don't wanna put it in their name. They don't wanna be responsible for it. Even though they're telling me that they wanna be responsible for it, I'm gonna say, why, why do you wanna be responsible for this? But you don't actually wanna be responsible for it. Why are you taking that away from me? Cuz it's an electricity bill. I can do that. Or if you're in a relationship and let's say that you need that support. And somebody says to you, you know what, I'd love to pay your electricity bill to make your life a little bit easier. That is an incredible kindness. If over time that becomes something that is used against a person. If that becomes something that is leveraged against a person, that's not a kindness, that's just straight up abuse. So if somebody takes the empowerment from a decision and again, I know it sounds vague, but it has to apply to a lot of decisions and a lot of conversations. But if that's being taken away, that is a huge red flag, one for the relationship, but also for economic abuse. And that actually goes for any other situations that this could happen in. So if somebody has a parent, an elderly parent and something seems a little bit off and they tell you that a decision that they're trying to make for their finances is no longer in their control and they don't understand why. And you don't understand why, and maybe it's now in your brother's control or your auntie's control. It's something like that. That should be something that you're like, wait, somebody needs to explain this to me because that sounds off. So that is the very first and the biggest red flag early on in a relationship.
Nikita:Yeah. You know, I think that this really is just talking about it more is jogging my own memory and stories that I've heard throughout my life. And I really don't feel like this, like economic abuse doesn't know any bounds when it comes to relationships. I've seen it from parents, keeping their children dependent on them by providing everything. So they, you know, get to make decisions for them well into their twenties or I guess even beyond potentially like that they have no business making, but they kind of have the power to, because of how they've structured things I've, I've seen. Another example was somebody losing the, you know," privilege of having the say in the family finances" because maybe they had made a mistake and they had proven to not be like trustworthy with, you know, being a responsible financial steward or whatever because of like one mistake. And so now it defaults to the other person and it's just, yeah, wow. It is everywhere.
Mary:And something that you just mentioned that really hits it on the head for me. When we teach young kids about economic abuse, we obviously can't go into schools and be like, let let's talk about abuse. You can't really do that. At least not in the United States. I don't know where, you know, all the listeners are, but you can't really go about doing that. So when we teach economic abuse to young adults, we always refer to it as money empowered dynamics, because that's really what it is. And so, as you were talking about those things immediately, I thought this is all about money dynamics. And of course, what we teach young, younger kids is that it can be one way, which is empowering or it can be the other way, which is abusive, but it really is all about money empower dynamics. In which way you wanna go on that spectrum. Nolan. Did you have any thoughts there? I know I, I occupied a lot of that space.
Nolan:No. I mean, I, I think that's all right. I, I say that it's, it's the pattern of controlling behavior that you want to be looking for, right? Because I'm sure you get into this in the podcast a lot Nikita- talking about money is really difficult. People sometimes have weird relationships with their own finances. And when you add that into a interpersonal relationship context, it can get even more complicated. Sometimes people have consensual agreements, like you're gonna manage all the budget. You decide, you figure out the bills, you do all that. And that's okay like that there's there's consent there. Right? What you have to look for is when there's not and a pattern of controlling behavior, a pattern of behavior, that's like doing things with your money that you didn't agree to, that, that you aren't fully empowered by. That could potentially damage your credit history, your spending, you know, some people have joint accounts where both incomes go into one account and you know, that's a totally normal situation. But if a partner's like, okay, your money comes in and you have to ask me what, before you spend it on anything, but they don't apply that rule themselves. Like that's a sign that something's up there. So it's the situation where, where no one scenario is always gonna be the same, but that pattern of controlling behavior is really what identifies a situation as being abusive in this way.
Nikita:Do you guys see any systems in place that seem to worsen this issue?
Nolan:I, yeah. I mean, I, I think so absolutely in a few different ways from there's a policy and legal standpoint in which a lot of states, a lot of states have some laws, some don't about abuse situations and, and granting rights to victims. Very few, like honestly, one or two explicitly mentions economic abuse as a specific situation in which somebody has legal rights. So the fact that states make it so hard within the legal system for abuse victims to, you know, fix the wrong, to get their life back on track, to like take the steps necessary without the abuser's consent to do what they need to do to rebuild their life. Like that's a big problem. So from a policy advocacy standpoint, yes, we need better laws, better regulations. It needs to be more clear. The fact that each state has such different laws around this adds one additional step of complexity for victims to sort through and figure out what applies to them. And then that's true for other and institutions too, like banking and financial institutions. There's a couple banks out there that might be proactive in terms of like helping victims. But for the most part, it's fair to say, they do not, this is not on their radar. And it is very difficult for a victim of financial abuse to work with their bank, to get special procedures, to help them get out of that situation. Like if both names aren't checking count and you need to get off of it quietly, privately, so you can move on and, and rebuild your life. Banks sometimes make it so hard to do.
Nikita:Also, they make it so that both people have to be present sometimes to do that.
Mary:Yeah. They require things like restraining orders before they'll do that.
Nikita:Oh my goodness. Right.
Nolan:And the legal hoops you have to jump through to get the bank to be your advocate is sometimes an unpassable burden for folks. So yes, there, there are burdens in a lot of different systems, but legally, financially, that that unfortunately victims have to deal with.
Nikita:If you got to dream up, you know, an idea of changes for an, the next, I mean, I guess immediate, since we're talking a dream here, what would you both like to see happen within the system within how this works and how we could better equip people to get out of these abusive situations?
Mary:Nikita. That is a, a huge question, but I love it because I think that once, you know, what economic abuse is, that's exactly where your brain goes. How can we change this? How can we, how can we just completely revamp it so that this isn't as big of an issue or an issue that we can address? So from my perspective, and I know Nolan will jump in as well, from my perspective, the two things that I'd love to see change. So let's say we, we pop out the fairy wand, we swish it. These are the two things. First one is around culture. In culture, even in the United States, especially outside of metropolin centers- if a woman, especially women. And I can't even begin to imagine what this, I didn't grow up in a particularly rural part of the United States. So I can't imagine what this is like, but for youth and young adults, like I can barely begin to imagine what this is like, culture is absolutely against them when it comes to getting out of a situation that might be abusive or calling someone out, even just in our culture, calling someone out for doing something that seems abusive, or maybe even at that stage, they can't even put that word to it. And it's just wrong. Our culture is right up against people, especially outside of metropolin centers in the United States. So that's the first thing that I would say let's change it. Let's absolutely change it, whether that means education or empowerment or however it might look, that's the first thing that I'd change. And the second thing that I would say, swish the fairy wand, here we go. And this fairy wand I think we can actually swish one day and make happen. I think having real genuine monetary options for victims ubiquitous across the United States is absolutely necessary. So that might sound a little bit vague, but things like real housing, not housing that you never wanna bring your kids to. And you'd be terrified to be in real transitional housing, if you need to get out of a situation, right? Micro loans for women that are in these situations, people that are in these situations, small loans that can help them either transition out of a home, cover some kind of loan that was taken out against them without their consent, maybe cover utility, whatever it might be, small microloans across the entire United States that people will have access to without having to show a restraining order, prove that there's a lawsuit currently going all of these thousand different things. So that's the second thing that I would love to see right off.
Nikita:Yeah.
Nolan:Yeah. To add on that. I mean, it's a problem, that's fundamentally a resource problem, right? I mean, like we, as an organization, global thinking just like you are in this world of financial literacy, which is an incredible, incredibly important topic to work on and spread financial education in an effective way. But the thing that is keeping people in abusive relationships or preventing them from being able to exit and rebuild their lives is really not a knowledge problem. It is a resource problem. So what, what we need are just more resources out there available to victims, available to survivors so that they can effectively rebuild their life and move on and, you know, build the systems they need in place to live an empowered, safe life for them and their families
Nikita:And without so many hoops to jump through.
Nolan:Exactly. Right. So, yeah, there's a heck of a lot at the policy level that can happen too. And, you know, at this stage, I think it's really state by state, which indicates that I think there's some work to be done at the federal level to help improve just this situation for survivors across the board. But you know, on a state by state basis, there is need to improve these laws and get rights in place for survivors and victims
Nikita:On an individual level. If you want to help improve this issue again, within your own circle, within your own like close-knit community, what can you be doing actively to, to help improve this?
Mary:I think this also goes back to the question that given opportunity I'd love for us to dive into, around offering help. Like what can we do to, to help? So at a community level, at an organizational level, separate from saying, I know someone or I myself was in this situation, what we can do is really first and foremost around education, whether it is financial education for ourselves or financial education around what economic abuse is. Because right now the very first step is that because right now it, people don't know what economic abuse is. We just, we don't, we don't know. So before we can start diving in and creating bigger change, we have to know what it is. And just going back to, you know, what we've talked about before, that's how you can identify it. That's how you can start to work against it. So very at the very fundamental level, as an individual education. And I know we say that a lot, like educate yourself on all of these different things. So by the end of the day, if you're hearing that 20 times, you've got 20 things to educate yourself on. You probably just got home from work and you're like, I don't even wanna cook. I'm not educating myself on 20 different things. So when I say, educate yourself on this, it can be a part of your everyday life because money is a part of your everyday. So educating yourself can be asking questions about, oh, well, what happens if I needed to not use this debit card because someone else was using it, Ooh, what would happen if I needed to freeze this bank account? Those are things that you can ask yourself, just go in about your daily life. So first education and at the individual level, that will make the biggest difference. And then after there's a sense of what economic abuse is what's going on and how personal finance for you would work the next way that I think we can make the biggest change right now with the status quo that we have. I hope in the future, I'll get to say something different because our, this quote has changed. But right now, the next thing at the individual level that I would say is to find a way to educate about economic abuse, to other people around you. Right? And again, we hear things like this all the time. So it almost feels like a task. I'm more saying, make it your brunch conversation. If somebody's gonna talk about investing and crypto, be like, hang on. Can we pause on crypto for like two seconds? Because I just wanna talk about how much control you actually have over your money and why that's important. Add it to the brunch conversation. If you are not a lady who brunches, because heavens knows so many of us are not- bring the conversation up with people that you trust. And of course we know talking about money's hard, so it's gonna be weird and awkward for five and a half minutes. And then after five and a half minutes at the six minute mark, it'll be like, all right, we survived. This isn't so bad,
Nikita:Right? And you've potentially created a safe space where maybe somebody who's experiencing this, wouldn't have known that you were a person they could talk to about it, but you've shown yourself to be a potential resource and, you know, second perspective to help walk them through some of that.
Mary:And it actually extends the way I see it extends even more than that. So we know that over 60% of teenagers, at least in one study in the United States, see their parents arguing about money. What would happen if they saw their mom and their auntie talking about money, just having a chat about it. What if a kid felt safe being like, wait, mom, when, when this person in our family does this, it kind of goes against something that you were telling auntie about. Isn't that kind of weird? What happened if a kid felt comfortable talking about that,
Nikita:Right. Just breaking down the taboo nature of it.
Mary:It gets bigger and bigger just beyond one conversation. All it takes is two people seeing that that's possible for them to then believe it's possible.
Nikita:That's such a good point.
Nolan:And I I'll add that. It's important to know about the topic to be able to discuss it, understand its so that you can, you know, it's a network effect, right? You can talk to your friends, they can talk to their friends, greater awareness around it. But what follows from there is know some, if you wanna be able to help people in your life with the situation of financial abuse, actually know some resources and have those be ready to share those resources. And so we haven't actually really talked about like specific resources so far on the call. And I think it's worthwhile to bring up. But like if you are in an abusive situation, if you know somebody who's in an abusive situation, like one of the first things to do is call the national domestic violence hotline. And you don't need to be in an actively violent situation to call this. Like, if, if there's any level of abuse, if you just want to talk about, understand the situation you're facing, you can call numbers like this and they can connect you to advocates, to counselors who can walk you through the steps you should be taking to, you know, even if you, if you're not sure that's okay, they're, they're just there to talk. And to help you better understand the, the dynamics of your situation and they could point you to the most effective reason sources to help you get out of it too. Um, yeah. And there's other groups too. I mean there's the National Network to End Domestic Violence and they, they have some incredible resources for people who are facing financial abuse. And you know, if you or somebody who know or is going through that, it's important to be able to point in to some of these resources, like no interest loans to help somebody rebuild their credit scores and things like that. Just really practical ways of like here are the steps you can take to rebuild.
Nikita:Right? I'll be sure to include these in the show notes as well.
Mary:I think this is maybe the scariest, but most important part of all of it. Because when we do figure out that economic abuse is either present for us is someone we love or a friend that we care are about. It becomes a very difficult moment where we have to decide what we're gonna do. And so I think being able to have some just like really simple first steps are really, really important. So going back to it, Nolan was mentioning the resources, those two websites or hotline, they're both websites, and one has a hotline- are absolutely incredibly important and you should go there. You should see what is available and you should see what the counselors there, what the advocates there recommend for you. In addition to that, some things that you can do for yourself or for someone you love, or for a friend first, you have to get a financial baseline. You have to figure out what is really going on with your finances. So that means getting your credit score. That means, yeah. Figuring out what accounts in your name that means figuring out is this a joint account? Is it under my name are the bills under my name? What is in your name? And what is it status now that sounds really straightforward. If somebody's really in an economically abusive situation, again, likely there are other aspects of abuse involved. So if you're a friend or a family member of somebody going through the, the most incredible thing that you can do for them is be a reliable and transparent resource for them. So what that means is if they're gonna get their credit report in the mail, because they can't get it to their email because somebody watches their email, let them send that to your mailbox.
Nikita:Yeah.
Mary:Let them send that to you. Yeah. If somebody's in a situation where they can't go to any DV or they can't go onto the national domestic hotline, be the resource, be the transparent friend or family member that says, you know what? You can do this on my phone, check on my phone, check on my computer. And we want to think about that. Person's safety above all else. So you can be that solid resource to say, mail things here, keep something here. And your birth certificate, your social security card and paperwork that you don't feel comfortable leaving at home because a loan might get taken out in your name, or you might not be able to see it for four months. Put it at my house.
Nikita:That's such good point. Things you don't think about unless you are in that industry or have experienced it yourself. Exactly.
Mary:And I think the most crucial part of that, if you are a family member, a loved one is be transparent about what you can do. If somebody believes that they can trust you for absolutely everything. And they really need you at a moment when you can't offer something, if you can't offer your home or you can't offer some specific type of you wanna be transparent with the person from the very beginning saying, I'm gonna help you with this. And if we need to find a place for you to go, I'll help you find a place for you to go. It is the moments when that person loses trust in someone else that they're relying on, that it makes a really, really messy situation, more messy. So if you're gonna be a loved one or a friend, the things that you can do are be a solid reliable resource. Allow them to use your phone, to check things, be the, let them send things to your house so that they can receive it without anybody eves dropping on it, help them do the research. They don't want that in their browser history for there to be what are the economic abuse availabilities for my state? What legal recourse do I have if they don't want that in their browser, let them put that in your browser history. So they, you can be this person to support and you have to be transparent and upfront about it because if trust is lost there, when trust is already so shaky, it creates a really messy situation. It makes it more difficult for that person that you love or that person that you care about. So those are the things that you can do at the very beginning. Of course, of course, for anybody listening that has been even remotely through this, there is so much more to it. There is so much more, and that's why the resources that Nolan mentioned at the outset are. So because once you get farther along in this, you might need legal advice. You might need advice from a professional advocate. You might not be able to find the answer you need online. So those resources are absolutely crucial. And those first initial steps you can do are get your financial baseline. And if you are a family member or a loved one, a friend allow them to use your safe space as their safe space.
Nikita:That's a great point.
Nolan:The things you can do for people in your life are just taking the steps, because if somebody feels trapped in an abusive situation, sometimes taking those steps for any number of reasons, because they don't feel safe. They don't know where to start, can just be an insurmountable burden. So if know, somebody who might be going through it, just doing the smallest bit, just to help them realize that you really are an advocate. You want to help them through the situation. You can do some of the research like those are, those are huge things you can do.
Nikita:Wow. Well, thank you both so much for sharing your time with us today and your knowledge and expertise. And I absolutely have full faith that our listeners, that this episode will be able to touch the people that it needs to touch. And our listeners will be able to benefit themselves and their loved ones by hearing your message.
Mary:Thank you.
Nolan:And thanks for having us on and, and thanks for being willing to talk about this, cuz that's incredibly important.
Nikita:Of course.