Julie South [00:00:06]:
I had one of the weirdest of requests this week just gone and I'm still not sure whether it was someone tried to trip me up or not. Some unscrupulous competitor perhaps. I know which ones. It wouldn't be both from how they do business and the level of surfers that they offer, but I still wasn't sure. And it got me thinking. When it comes to fish hooks, that might be hiding when you provide references or when you ask for a reference, how well versed are you? Did you know, for example, how the Fair Trading act and the Privacy act, two of four key pieces of protective and I use protective in air quotes, protective legislation in New Zealand might come back to haunt you or bite you if you run afoul of them. Hi, I'm Julie south and you are listening to the Vet Staff podcast episode 198. The Vet staff podcast is powered by Vet Staff Limited, New Zealand's only recruitment agency dedicated to helping veterinary professionals find jobs.
Julie South [00:01:18]:
They're excited about going to our Monday mornings in New Zealand vet clinics. You can find back copies of the Vetstaff podcast@vetstaffpodcast.com. back to this weird request. I got an email from a veterinary professional who told me I didn't know whether they were a vet or a nurse or a tech or who they were. They told me they were going to resign from their job, but they wanted to find out what kind of reference their current boss would give them because there had been some kind of disagreement. This person wanted me to pretend I was a new employer of theirs and I was asking for a reference. In other words, this person was asking me to lie, which I wasn't going to do. I told them I wasn't going to lie and that we vet staff knew how to work with job applicants who had less than favourable references.
Julie South [00:02:22]:
In a couple of cases with those less than favourable reference situations we've found those veterinary professionals dream jobs and this was when they weren't able to provide any references at all. This is because we had respect and trust all around. Now there are laws in New Zealand that apply to both the job applicant and the clinic when it comes to references, particularly and specifically the Privacy act and the Fair Trading act. This year we've come across a few clinics that sadly have violated the Privacy act and I say sadly when we very politely let them know this is what they've done and you can't actually do what they've done. We've been told everyone does it. Now if everybody is doing it, that really is a bit of a worry, especially as it could come back to bite or haunt you. The biggest offence I think a clinic can make when it comes to reference checks, apart from not doing any at all, is to run foul of the New Zealand Privacy Act 2000. This is where clinics leave themselves wide open for who knows what to happen should the job applicant be so inclined to pursue in the courts if a privacy breach has occurred? What am I talking about? It means you can't get a reference check without first getting permission from the applicant to do so.
Julie South [00:04:10]:
It also means you cannot provide a reference without also first getting the green light of the person concerned. You cannot legally discuss someone's suitability in the context of a reference or a job application without their knowledge, no matter how casual the request might be, no matter how well you know the head vet nurse or the receptionist or the practice manager or the lead vet at their current or former place of work. New Zealand law, perhaps you from doing that. This means you cannot ask a friend you know where an applicant has worked or who may know the applicant what they're like. This is a gross breach of the job applicant's privacy and you are running foul of the Privacy act. We've had a few instances, like I said earlier this year, where we've had a couple of strong and I use strong in air quotes, strong personalities that have come up against each other in a place of work with the result being that the employee ends up coming off second best when the story is recounted without their permission because they know somebody how this person is. In a couple of situations, the clinic we were introducing the job applicant to happened to ask around and decided that an applicant was too much hard work. They had a shoddy attitude, was too self opinionated, blah blah blah blah blah.
Julie South [00:05:56]:
I'm sure you kind of get where I'm going here. Now when this happens, it means apart from a privacy breach and a breaking of New Zealand law, there's only one side of a story being told. And all stories, as we know, have two sides. We've also had a situation where the casual inquiry resulted in an excellent reference for one of our job advertising applicants. But no one, until the casual inquiry was made, knew that that person was looking for another job at their clinic. Ouch. Imagine how you would feel if it was your privacy being breached like this in any situation. Please don't do it.
Julie South [00:06:47]:
Given that reference checking is a critical component of the hiring process, ironically, it can also be sometimes a shaky source of information about a potential employee. Well, thanks to New Zealand's privacy act like I've just mentioned. Where employers can only ask for references from people the candidate has approved means that a former employer can only share details about a former employer if they have the green light from that former employee to do so. Most experienced recruiters would pick up on the red flags that start flying if someone is reluctant to let them contact their current employer, especially when there's a job offer already on the table, or where a former employee has unexplained gaps in their cv. That being said, there's still plenty of room, though, for misleading or incomplete information to sneak through. For example, exit agreements can be a bit of a fish hock, especially when someone jumps before they're pushed or they're paid to leave. Things can start getting really tricky when an employer and an employee have an exit agreement that stops either from bad mouthing the other when there's a non disparage clause included, that's where each party agrees not to bad mouth the other party. These agreements often require the employer, because it's been predetermined, the employer to provide a positive reference with the wording already agreed upon by both parties at the time the exit agreement was drawn up.
Julie South [00:08:46]:
I remember one job I had where I was asked about the performance review I gave someone on my team. This is way back. Apparently it had been the worst review my manager had ever seen for that person. It turns out that all my predecessors had given glowing references in the hope that another department would pick up on this person's stellar performance, which they didn't have. Everyone before me was trying to fob off this employee to any department that would take them while I was gunning for some training to help improve their performance. Now, as you've probably guessed, providing good references can feel deceptive and a bit off, especially if the employer is essentially paying the employee to leave, potentially passing them and their issues onto someone else. How would you feel if one of your competitors talked up someone who they knew was nothing but trouble, but their hands were tied because of an existing, non disparaging exit agreement between the parties. So how can a prospective employer figure out if a reference is trustworthy, and what can they do? What can you do if you end up with a lessen than ideal hire? Well, the first thing is you have to make sure that the person giving the reference is legit.
Julie South [00:10:19]:
You have to do what I call triangulate your sources. Make sure that the person you're speaking with is who they're meant to be, that it's not their grandmother or their bestie or their mother even, or their dad talking them up. Fortunately, it hasn't happened at Fitstaff. It's because we triangulate and because we double check. But I've heard nightmare stories from clinics where candidates have given contact details of friends who then pretend to be a former employer. And the new clinic has no idea the person doing the reference checking hadn't done their preliminary background checking. So how do you do this? Julie? Good question. You need to verify the person providing the reference as who they say they are.
Julie South [00:11:07]:
Ask them, for example, to send you an email so that you can double check that way work email. Or you can make sure you call during clinic hours and at work so you're using the work phone number. You don't have to do the reference check at that time, obviously, because it might not be private space, the person might not be in a private space or it might not be a suitable time, but it's one way that you can verify their authenticity. Another thing you can do is insist that the candidate allows you to contact their current or their most recent employer, ideally their manager. This is especially critical if and when there's a job offer on the table, because you can make a job offer subject to a satisfactory reference request. Alarm bells should start ringing if they fob off and try to weasel their way out of this request from you. Somehow. Now, changing the subject ever so slightly, have you heard of the workforce assurance standards? It's something the New Zealand Public Service Commission, formerly the State Services Commission, rolled out just after the pandemic.
Julie South [00:12:25]:
The workforce assurance standards lays out what state sector agencies state sector employers should do when hiring employees and handling disciplinary matters, employment investigations and exits these standards say that whenever possible, the candidate's last direct line manager should be one of the referees. If that's not doable, the hiring employer should at least talk to the HR manager of the candidate's previous organisation. The Public service Commission has also mandated bolded, underlined caps mandated the requirement to ask whether a candidate has ever been involved in a serious misconduct investigation, whether upheld or ongoing, or if they have been dismissed from a job. These are questions that you can legally ask. This is crucial information because employees often leave their jobs either by resigning or through an agreed exit before or during an employment investigation. Candidates for state sector jobs now need to consent to their prospective employers seeking information about any past serious misconduct investigations with other state sector employers over the last three years. A word here for the job applicants. These standards capital s standards clarify that if a candidate refuses to consent to this disclosure, it doesn't automatically disqualify them from employment.
Julie South [00:14:08]:
Obviously it creates a few hurdles, but it's not an automatic disqualification in the public service. Hopefully the hiring organization asks why they're refusing or what the investigation was because, as I said earlier, there are always two sides to a situation and then the new employer can consider those reasons when deciding whether to move forward with the application or not. When it comes to exit agreements, the workforce assurance standards advises employers against entering into confidentiality and non disclosure agreements with employees. It further suggests that anything like a confidentiality agreement is written so that the employer can respond openly, that they don't have their hands tied in any way, and they don't need to hedge their answers to future reference requests from potential employers. Further, state sector employers must consider what interests need protection and whether a non disclosure statement is genuinely necessary. Just because you can doesn't mean you should, right? The standards state that, and I'm going to quote here, any restrictions need to be lawful, proportionate, and have justifiable reason. End quote. I'd like to go out on a limb here and suggest that similar standards be applied for the veterinary sector here in New Zealand as well.
Julie South [00:15:51]:
Sadly, and I'm sure this is so for everywhere in the world there are some rat pack employees. Fortunately for vet staff, we don't brush up against them very often, although we've heard quite a few anecdotal stories. Therefore, surely if the public service here has taken these steps to protect our government, wouldn't it be a good idea for the same standards to be applied for the veterinary profession as well? The New Zealand Public Service Commission issued these standards to cut down on the chances of underperforming or problematic employees bouncing between state sector employers due to weak reference checks and screening. I'm sure there were employees who were given glowing references so someone else could inherit their non performers, like the story that I shared with you from my past earlier. While these are standards aren't mandatory for other employers outside the state service or the public service like vet clinics. Surely there's a lot to be said for adopting a similar approach. What do you think? I'd love to hear what you say. You can send Tanya or kajal or I emails at teamtstaff dot co dot NZ passing on a problem employee offers a quick fixed but what goes around comes round and karma has a habit, sure you know this, of coming back to haunt and or bite.
Julie South [00:17:24]:
Talking of haunting and biting, there are four pieces of New Zealand legislation that do have teeth and could come back to bite you as a reference giving employer or providing falsified employee information. They are the Fair Trading act, the Human Rights act, the Privacy act, and of course the Employment Relations act. If a clinic, if you suspect that you've received a misleading or a false reference, they could, you could potentially take legal action against the referee under New Zealand's Fair Trading act. So if that's you, if you're the one that's given false information or a misleading, it could come back to bite you. Under the Fair Trading act, are you willing to take that risk? Whether you've breached the act or not, having to take or defend anything in court is a huge distraction to your day job, your primary business, which is saving animals lives. So don't go there. It's not worth it. On the flip side, if the employee was involved in providing the false reference and they got sprung, their grandmother fessed up, or they were bragging about it, perhaps in the pub one night to their friends and someone overheard, remember, New Zealand is a very small place.
Julie South [00:18:49]:
There might be grounds for terminating their employment. Both of these legal recourse options, though, are usually very costly and time consuming. So don't go there. Ask good and legal questions to start with and make sure you do. You take the steps that you need to take. In New Zealand, there are questions that you can and cannot ask when doing a reference check. Do your homework. Make sure that you're not running afoul of any of those acts of parliament that I mentioned before.
Julie South [00:19:25]:
Here are ten questions that you can ask that are legal that you can ask a former employer when you are doing your reference checks. They're just ten of the many that we ask here at vet staff. What dates did the employee work for you? Would you hire this person again? Why and why not? Have you ever had reasons to doubt their integrity, honesty, professionalism, ability and or skills? If yes, why? Were there any issues or concerns regarding lateness or absenteeism? What type of management or leadership style do they respond to best? Why did they leave? What were their responsibilities? Would you describe them as a placeholder or a proactive employee? Who else would you recommend I speak with about this person? Remember that you need to ask the applicants permission to act on that answer. And then finally, if you are hiring this person, knowing what you know about them now, what is one thing you wish you knew about them before you hired them? This last question can throw up positive surprises as well as negative ones. It's not a question designed to trip somebody up. For example, we had one vet nurse. We were finding another job. Their former head vet nurse told me she wished that she had known just how much experience the nurse had and how extensive her mentoring experience was because she realized too late in the game.
Julie South [00:21:08]:
The employer realized too late in the game how our applicant could have added so much more value to her departing clinic. The nurse was resigning on good terms. Her husband had had his job transferred, so that's why the resignation was coming about. But the head vet nurse wished that she'd known all of this good stuff prior because the nurse in question was a very humble and shy person. She didn't shout about all that she'd done from the rooftops, and she had a whole stack of amazing life skills that almost went untapped. For more information on these questions, I'll put an in depth article for you that you can find on Vetstaff's podcast on Vetstaff's website. So visit the show notes to this episode. It's episode 198 remember, in New Zealand it's important to navigate your way through reference checks within the bounds of New Zealand's employment law.
Julie South [00:22:16]:
Always document the feedback received just in case you need it for future reference or if any disputes arise. Just in case you didn't know, here at Vetstaff, we're not an all or nothing agency. It's not a case of we have to do all of your recruitment or nothing at all. If you want, we can do some of it for you while you maintain control over the partner that you want to do for yourself. For example, we can take care of the reference checks if you want. We can also take care of ensuring that your individual employment agreements are written up in a timely manner and have all the necessary information in them for you. If that sounds like something you'd be interested in, then please get in touch with us at Teametstaff dot co dot NZ. We're only too happy to help.
Julie South [00:23:07]:
There's no other agency in New Zealand that knows veterinary recruitment like vet staff. Thank you for sharing the last 25 minutes or so of your life with me. I hope you have found this helpful. You can contact Kajal, Tanya or myself at Vetstaff dot co dot NZ the Vetstaff podcast is proudly powered by Vetshe vetclinicjobs.com, the new and innovative global job board reimagining veterinary recruitment. Connect in veterinary professionals with clinics that shine online Vetclinicjobs.com is your go to resource for finding the perfect career opportunities and helping vet clinics power up their employer branding game. Visit vetclinicjobs.com today to find vet clinics that shine online. So veterinary professionals can find them vetclinicjobs.com.
