In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST, Psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss why the first two weeks of any divorce is the most dangerous time. Learn what kinds of situations can make this the most dangerous time and learn strategies for setting boundaries and minimizing conflict.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST, Psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss why the first two weeks of any divorce is the most dangerous time. Learn what kinds of situations can make this the most dangerous time and learn strategies for setting boundaries and minimizing conflict.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
All right, and we like to laugh as you can tell.
Peter Roussos:I love it. I told Mark when he called that and thank you guys again for the opportunity. But one of the first things Mark said was the irreverence and I said to him at the end of the call, you know, paraphrasing Jerry Maguire, you had me a reference
Shawn Weber:Welcome to the three Wiseman of divorce, money, Psych and law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, marriage and family therapist, Pete Russo's and attorney Shawn Weber. For a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co parenting and the difficult decisions, real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you are looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 60 years of divorce and conflict management. We are here for you and look forward to help by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co parenting. Well, Mark, it's been a while since we've done this, hasn't it? But we have a new Wiseman for 2022. We'd like to welcome Pete Roussos Marriage and Family Therapist extraordinaire.
Peter Roussos:Thank you guys. Absolute pleasure to be here.
Shawn Weber:You know, and when I refer you, Pete, I always make a point of pointing out to people that you are also a sex therapist. Yes, that makes it especially exciting for my clients, especially when you're getting
Peter Roussos:a certified sex therapist, which is different from a certifiable. Say, Yes.
Shawn Weber:But actually, that's interesting, because I mean, a lot of the work that we do, I mean, I, we had a colleague, mutual friend years ago that she used to say, our business is the only one we're 100% of our clients have had a sexual relationship with one another. And that's kind of an interesting concept, right? You know, you can't understate or overstate how important that relationship is, and then how they're then interacting when they're considering a breakup.
Peter Roussos:It is so vitally important, I think, in so many different levels. And so and I'm a couples therapy specialists, my practice is two thirds to three couples, but three quarters, couples work. And sex and intimacy dynamics is at the very core of it. Absolutely.
Shawn Weber:And we've known you forever since the dinosaurs roamed the earth. I think the we've been working with you and Mark and
Peter Roussos:20 years guys
Shawn Weber:has it really been that long?
Peter Roussos:Yeah, yeah.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, it's great. I've always enjoyed working with you.
Mark Hill:And disclosure. Full disclosure, Peter Roussos is the real guitarist in the band that I play in. I just sort of play a guitarist on TV compared to Peter so
Peter Roussos:the, for me that you might use the four letters L EA, D. But it's really pronounced lead in terms of my playing, definitely lead to guitar. I played lead guitar. Absolutely.
Shawn Weber:You know, Mark, before we got on here, you were talking about how I am not a musician, but I want you to know that I played the trombone in high school.
Mark Hill:We would love a horn section
Shawn Weber:We could do that! We could do that. You know, my daughter Macy used to be in a group called bonafide brass. She's a trombone. And it was a trombone, choir. Essentially, it was all these old men, these retired music teachers and then my 14 year old daughter.
Peter Roussos:Shawn I have heard from experienced musicians that the trombone is maybe the most difficult instrument to learn how to play.
Shawn Weber:Well, I think that's probably close to true. I think the thing about the trombone is there's no excuse to be out of tune. Unless you don't have any intonation, and then everybody knows it, because you have to be able to have an ear to be able to hear is that slide in the right place. Yeah. But anyway, well, okay, so glad to have you here. And so So, we've been thinking about in the last couple of weeks you know, this is divorce season. I always joke the beginning of the year is divorce season and this is when people are making their New Year's resolutions to leave their spouse you know, and so we we in the divorce industry, get a lot of business and then I've got a lot of cases right now where people are at the very beginning stages. And and I've always said the most dangerous time for a divorce is like the first is two weeks after people realize they need one. Because people don't know what the new boundaries are, they don't know what lane to drive in. It's just kind of anarchy until we can get them into a process where we can help them have boundaries and figure some things out. But I was wondering what you guys thought of that?
Mark Hill:Well, I think people are very fearful, when it starts and they can be pushed in can feel pushed into a corner where I must have a strong attorney to defend my rights, because he just filed for divorce, or she just filed for divorce. And the reaction can be to take all the money and put it in a separate account or take the children after mother's or something like that. And that's always bad. That never ends well. But it's comes from fear. And people tend when they don't, as you say, Shawn, they're not in a process, what they tend to do is they tend to look for help. And they often will go to their divorced friends, who may not be the right place to get your divorce advice. Because they will, it will be filtered through their own experience. And most people go through a litigated experience that can result in the kind of things I just talked about occurring, and sometimes are driven by the attorneys, unfortunately.
Peter Roussos:But I'm curious for the two of you. I mean, this is just my anecdotal sense. And I'm curious how this lines up with, with your experience and your practices. But that is a very, very rare situation. When both partners want the divorce, that there is way more frequently, somebody who wants it and the other who doesn't. And I read bring that up, because of what that means in terms of that experience of rejection and failure and how that amplifies tensions. But I'm curious, is that also what you guys see in your practice?
Shawn Weber:Oh, absolutely. I would say, most of the cases, there's somebody that didn't want this. Yeah. And somebody who's who's wanted this for a while and has just gotten up the courage to say something,
Peter Roussos:and is way further ahead in terms of
Shawn Weber:you know, we call it the the leave or levy situation. And we've talked about before on this program, but you know, you have those Kubler Ross stages of grief, you know, the the initial denial and bargaining and anger and depression. And then finally, they get through this process of getting to an acceptance. And what happens is, you might have the lievore, who's gone through all of the stages, and his advocates acceptance, and is really at peace with the fact that there's a divorce. And then the spouse is just hearing about this. And they're all over the map. And they don't know what to do with this information. And so it can make those first few weeks really kind of crazy for everybody to leave, or is just like bouncing between terror and rage and denial and everything else and trying to save the marriage. They're desperate to save the marriage. And so they'll act in ways that are unhelpful. And I'm always coaching to leave or calm down slower is faster. You know, we'll get there, but it's, it's like, my dog who's your he's this little Puggle. And when I first we first got him as a puppy, we put a leash on to take him for a walk, and I pulled on his leash, and he just sat down. And when he would pull the other direction, and I think that's what the levy will do when we pull on them, you know, because they, they won't, they will go the direction they're willing to go when they're willing to go. Yeah, go ahead.
Mark Hill:Well, I've also seen revisionists thinking throughout a case to where some they come in and they go, yes, we both want the divorce. And then as you go through the process, you find out one really doesn't want the divorce. And they're not at the same stage, they told you at the outset. And when you discuss it with them, they don't really have a good memory of saying that they were ready, you know?
Shawn Weber:Well, I've seen people switch. I've seen people start out as the one that wanted to leave and or maybe they general word of advice don't file for divorce as a way to get your spouse's attention. Right, because they may take you up on it, you know. So I mean, I've seen that happen where people file for the divorce or threaten the divorce thinking that it'll get somebody's attention, and they're like, Oh, hey, you know what this idea of Gen four is pretty good. And then now you don't want the divorce and try to save the marriage, but it's too late. You've done enough damage
Unknown:and Shawn I'm curious. This may be jumping ahead a little bit. But if this is the most dangerous time, what's the second most it seems like there's also that moment I think of panic and finality as the negotiations are concluded or things are getting ready to be finalized.
Shawn Weber:the week they sign the MSA.
Peter Roussos:Yeah, yeah!
Shawn Weber:they signed the marital settlement agreement and signed their papers to finalize this. And they realize, oh, this is really over. Yeah, you see, you see all kinds of weird behavior that week too. Yeah.
Mark Hill:But if you can engage the clients along the way, so that it's a process, not an event, in other words, and normalize it, and to say things like, you know, you're gonna be probably experienced these kinds of feelings, this stage, and it's totally normal. That's what everyone does, don't beat yourself up about it. And that's the beauty of having the resources of the three different areas, the financial, the emotional, and the legal.
Shawn Weber:Yep. Well, I think, at the beginning, too, I think people are smart, if they get into a process or get with a professional as soon as possible. Even if they think everything's gonna be fine. Get some advice early, so that we can help you because we've seen this movie before. I just finished with a this couple I was talking to you about earlier, they were they had a really horrible first week, you know, and they're cohabiting still. And there was a little bit of violence that had happened between it was kind of situational violence, I don't think this is a pattern that's going to be ongoing, but somebody threw a hairbrush. And then somebody got mad, puts a fist through a wall. And, and and, you know, those are the moments where the police might get called, and then the whole case could go really south from there. But we had a mediation session where we just spent the entire time setting boundaries. Okay, so which part of the house is your part of the house? Can I come into your bedroom without your permission? You know, what, what are we doing about even silly things like, which side of the fridge is who's, you know, just kind of setting the boundaries so that people are building this new muscle of now we're single people, as opposed to married people, we shared everything, we're single people, now we're, our boundaries have to be respected. And that's a new thing for a
Peter Roussos:lot of people. And I think you in some ways, you you can't be too detailed or upset differently, if you're going to err, to err on the side of being over detailed in terms of defining the structure. What are the rules of engagement,
Mark Hill:I always say that when we have crafting, you know, we can craft a marital settlement agreement to be as detailed as you think you want. Or we can craft it as detailed as we think it's going to need to be right and the latter is better. Because you may need something will come up at some point where you're gonna go back and look at that document. And you might not like what you sign. But the chances are, if you've signed it, you will comply with it, because you agreed to it at the time. So more detail is better.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, you know, I think another piece of advice that I would give folks as don't make major changes in the first weeks. Sometimes people are like, they want to go cancel insurance policies, and they want to sell cars, and they wanna put their house on the market. And they want to do this and that. But I mean, Mark, you said this before on financial issues, why wouldn't you want to make major changes?
Mark Hill:Well, because A, there's going to be restraining orders coming up here, number one, this file that says you can't do that. And number two, it'll probably have the reverse impact that you hope. In other words, if you think I'm going to change the beneficiary on my retirement account, because I won't be married to her anymore, that's probably not going to make her feel very good and trusting of you. And trust is important, because we have to foster that concept that they can each trust what each other saying, because this is a voluntary process that we enter, yes, you'll find signing forms under the penalty of perjury, and you better be forthright and honest with what you're giving us in terms of numbers. But it's still a voluntary process that they're both engaging in. And you want to make sure that you don't increase the level of distrust that may be existing that's causing the divorce, but I
Shawn Weber:don't I don't want to spend more money on her health insurance. We're getting divorced, she should get her own health insurance. What would you say to that person?
Mark Hill:I would say go talk to Shawn he's a lawyer. Explain the issues that you'd be facing around that. Literally, I would. Also counselor, what does that mean if you did that?
Shawn Weber:Right. Well, there's also the issue of you know, what, what would happen if to this to your case, it would actually cost more if you do things that freak the other person out? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. person doesn't feel good to have their insurance pulled out from under them. And then my advice to that person was make no major changes because you owe fiduciary duties to the other spouse similar to what you would owe a business partner. And so and the court takes the fiduciary duty as serious as a heart attack. So you don't want do major things without the other person's participation, because surprise is the enemy of peace. You know, if you, if you shock somebody with some shot across the bow or some major change, it's going to cause people to react and sometimes overreact. And any shot you had of having a divorce that was less than six figures starts going down the tube.
Peter Roussos:You know, I think one of the challenges to that, you know, the dynamics that drove the dysfunction and the disconnection between partners is almost always are almost always amplified when they're navigating separation and divorce. And I think that, that if they're gonna find their way to treating each other at the very least more respectfully and more appropriately, thinking in terms of fairness, they've got to be willing to aspire to that, you know, the realize they can't be reenact reactive in from that place of hurt, because if they do that it is just going to be destructive. So when I hear the question of, of somebody grappling with whether or not they want to support the other person's health care insurance, the thing that I would wonder about is so so why is it good for your children, for example, if your soon to be ex spouse sees, you know, doesn't have health insurance, how, what is the greater good that you want to commit yourself and work towards with each other? Bringing it back to this idea of there's going to be a bunch of sacrifices that are have to be made? How do you do that fairly. But if they're not willing to aspire, beyond the present moment, and the present hurt, those are the couples that will struggle and will have the more expensive divorces? Absolutely,
Mark Hill:yeah. And expense is almost exponential when you get into litigation. And the most expensive divorces are failed mediations, or collaborative cases, frankly, because they've already can be really expensive. So again, revisiting the concept of Dave, we have a mission statement here. What are what are our highest and best intentions, as we enter this process? Something we can take the clients back to say, tell me how what's going on right now fits with what you told me three months ago? Well,
Shawn Weber:thank you, thank you for bringing that up. Because the mission statement can really be important at the beginning. Right? Yeah. I mean, I like to spend time talking about what are these governing values, what are these just no brainer values that everybody agrees to, that we can write down, and, and then come back to it, it becomes a decision making paradigm as we're going forward, you know, I, you know, and these are no brainer things like, we both want our kids to be healthy. You know, I haven't talked to anybody that wants their kids to be unhealthy. Right, right, or, or we want to have a mutually respectful divorce or whatever their particular value is, and then just come back to the mutually respectful to cut your wife off of the insurance policy.
Peter Roussos:It says there's a there's a concept that I use all the time with, with clients, whether I'm working in therapy, or if I'm working in when I was doing collaborative work or working in terms of mediation support. And the guy that developed the psychotherapeutic model that I worked from developed. And that's what he refers to as a two choice dilemma. And this is a situation that happens to us all the time in life where we've got the situation. And in response to it, we've got two choices that are available to us. And the dilemma is that we want different choices than the ones that are available. Or we want both of the choices. And so a common one, I think in divorce cases is where we want to, to protect ourselves, and do that in a way that the other person will experience as harsh. While at the same time we want the other person to be considerate towards us, or we want the other person to be fair, and you just can't put the two together. And so that dilemma is the person's got to decide which of those choices is more likely to lead to something positive. And you know, it never works is certainly not in what are supposed to be egalitarian relationships if we expect the other person to do something, or to accept something that we ourselves are not willing to do or accept in return.
Mark Hill:It goes back to that the idea if you have a proposal, we presume it has value for you. What value will it have for your spouse and what value does it have for the family because you're still going to be if you have children your family your reform that you're still a family
Peter Roussos:yeah
Shawn Weber:well I'm there's different kinds of defense you know, some people have a defense where they kind of put a wall up or they they put up things boundaries to protect themselves and then there's the people like a good defense is a good offense. And and they want to you know, strike first because they're frightened they strike Yeah, yeah. And and and a lot of these I mean, you mentioned it earlier, Pete, a lot of this is so fear driven, I don't know what's going to happen to me, I don't know what's coming. And I've seen people that you would think have really got their act together, you know, CEOs that run big companies, absolutely freak out, and then do these kinds of fight or flight kind of things. And so you can either flee into your own little shell, or you can lash out, and it's the lashing out that we're really worried about, although the fleeing into your own shell isn't particularly helpful, either, as
Unknown:you know, is it also I think that there are these these aspects of behavior. And it's true that the people we love the most are the ones that see, the parts of us that are, are at times, least healthy, darkest, whatever. And so even what you're describing how striking it is, that, you know, the way that the partners will behave towards each other in ways that they would never treat anybody else. So, it and I say that, because if you take a titan of industry, and you think about their capacity to make business decisions, and to manage themselves in difficult situations, in the service of a business goal and objective, who struggled to do that, in their family relationships, but the you know, there's a number of ways where I think people give themselves, well, I'll just speak for themselves, where I allow myself to behave in a way that I wouldn't want, you know, other people to say, I think we all do that. We do that as a species. And it's a willingness, I think, to really confront ourselves and to face those kinds of choice dilemmas, that determines the extent to which, in this context that we're talking about, people are going to be able to have a healthy divorce process, or respect based divorce process that sets the stage for them to be lifelong, healthy and appropriate. And collaborative coparents
Mark Hill:You know, I liken it to basically, the difference between how people behave, driving cars and walking as a pedestrian is that it's that sort of boundary around you that allows you to be a jerk. Or do walking on the streets and
Shawn Weber:call I call him the good Sorry, sorry, Mark. I didn't mean to talk. I was done. I want you there's there's the keyboard commandos they get on. They're really good at getting on Facebook and beating somebody into a bloody pulp over a political issue, but they would never talk like that to somebody in person.
Mark Hill:Yeah, yep. Same thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. Well, I mean, then so you know, not overreacting to things. That is probably an important thing to really be mindful of just take a moment when something weird happens that you're not expecting, and we get a curveball that frightens you. I always tell people, you're not a computer, it doesn't mean that when somebody pushes your button, you have to act in a certain way, we have this ability between, you know, stimulus and reaction to govern our thoughts. That's what separates us from the animals, right. And so we can do that in our divorce case. So when the stimulus happens, that kind of scares us or frightens us or makes us angry. The overreaction a lot of times makes it so much worse.
Mark Hill:And also, I think, when you're faced with the divorce, is trying to think strategically in terms of what resources am I going to need to get through this, as opposed to defensively and I need someone to fight for me and protect me? Wait a minute, let's think this through what resources am I going to need to be able to go through this continue to have some kind of relationship with my soon to be ex so that I can be a decent co parent with? Because that's, I mean, I've said for years that I use the children relentlessly in this process. I mean, you know, the one thing that kids agree on, is sorry, the parents agree on is that they love their kids. And, you know, as Sean has told, I think more than one time, judges don't love your kids like you do.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, yeah. Judge said to me, I don't love your kids. It's what he said to my clients. But yet you're asking me to make a decision about your children. You know, and that's the truth. I mean, you want to get into the meat grinder of the courthouse and do that. But think about what what reaction Your kids will have, what experience they will have, what experience you will have. You know,
Peter Roussos:you know what I think Shawn was talking about that initial two week period. That is definitely I think the potential to be way more reactive time that I think the overarching most important objective is that they're working together. To turn the temperature down. And in a practical sense, what that can often mean is that they have to create more separation within the home, that they're steering clear of certain subjects, the absolute importance of both parties doing what they can visa vie, healthy self care, exercise, you know, diet, sleep, the avoidance of, of alcohol and substances, those are the things that that absolutely pose additional risk factors. And then I think setting basic ground rules about what they're going to talk about and how they're going to talk about in this interim time, while things are being put in place and you know, movement towards the, the resolving of issues like temporary support that kind of thing. But often it means really trying to create more separation, while being under the same roof
Shawn Weber:rule, Mark, you and I had a case where we would beg them not to talk about the case, yep. And then they would get in a car and drive together somewhere. And they would, by the time they got out of that car at destination, she's having to call an Uber because she's not gonna ride with him anymore, this jerk and, and he's
Mark Hill:just dropped him off on the side of the freeway, once you remember the way to an appointment with the teenage son who was having challenges, you know, he literally dumped him on the freeway, so get out of the car. It's, it is difficult, when you haven't ever had an intimate relationship with someone not to feel that it's appropriate to bring up anything you want to talk about. But it's not productive. And, and and, again, I say to people, you've hired me or us to do this work. And now, you're not going to use that resource you're paying for for that. Where's the sense in that? You know, where's the value in that?
Shawn Weber:Well, I think a lot of it is Go ahead, Pete. Sorry.
Peter Roussos:Or they end up paying us and paying more because they want us to clean up the mess.
Mark Hill:Yes, yep. Yep. And, you know, the idea that people, people sometimes coming in come in, obviously, everyone comes in with their own story of the marriage, okay, which is going to be different. You know, we always say there's three stories. There's her story, his story and what really happened, and we don't know what's true out of the three of them. But the idea that you can get in front of a court in front of a judge and tell your story, and the judge will understand what an awful person the other is, and give you everything. The truth of the matter is that judges see two warring parties who can't divide the furniture. And they used to be able to make babies, and there's not a lot of sympathy there. And that's a surprise to people, I think when they consider because they have a TV view of what happens in court.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. Yeah, the chances of you having that that TV experience, I think a lot of people are really unrealistic about what happens at court now. And if you ever want to, you know, if you're contemplating divorce, it's a, you might want to just go to the courthouse and watch what happens at the Family Court. And you'll see that there is no justice there. This is not a place where anybody cares about your situation at all. You're just one of the hordes one of the masses of people that are there to take the time of the judge, and the clerks. And you'll see that that venue is not something's going to bring you relief. If you want relief, then get with some professionals that know how to help you have a constructive dialogue. So this becomes you know, as the adage says, this is a problem to be solved as opposed to battle to be fought. And then and then you can get to a place and it comes back to the thing that mark and I've talked about before and that is that, you know you what kind of divorce story. Do you want to come out of this with like, what story you want your children telling about how it was when you got divorced? Because we hear about both we I have the children coming into my office and hiring me for their divorce. And they'll say to me, oh my gosh, I don't want to be like my parents divorce was, you know, or occasionally I get that person says, you know, our my parents got divorced when I was young, but but boy, they, they sure put their kids first. And I knew there was a battle but I I didn't know necessarily what it was. I knew there was some some discussion and some disagreement. But I always knew that my parents loved me and that was the most important thing
Mark Hill:that my son literally said that to me when I had the courage when he was 19 to ask him. So what was it like growing up for you? Well, your mama tau different I can't imagine you guys ever been together? But I never heard either one. If you say a bad word about the other, and I knew you both loved me. I mean, it still touches me that boy. And so we did good. We did a good job somehow. And it was hard. And it was difficult at times. So I'm sure for her certainly was for me. But we put him first we put him in -- it's like, "how will this affect him before we think about how it affects us?" You know.
Shawn Weber:Thanks for sharing that mark. Because I can tell that sounds really emotional.
Mark Hill:Yeah, I mean, that that was he's 40- 40 years old now. So that was 21 years ago.
Shawn Weber:That's a good divorce story. And so and I think people that are listening to this at home that maybe are in those first two weeks and are feeling hopeless, or scared, or in a in a dark hole, that there is a way out, yeah, that there is a there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and I get it, you got to get through the tunnel. But there is a way to do this. And you can get out. Okay, on the other side,
Peter Roussos:I want to ask you both. And this may be something that you have talked about in another podcast. But you know, part of what we're talking about is how people prepare themselves. If they've made the decision to divorce, how do they prepare themselves, and really think of it in terms of how do they prepare themselves to manage their fear, their hurt their disappointment, so that they can engage in it in an appropriate and really mission statement focused way, if you will. To get to that healthy side,
Shawn Weber:one of the first things I will advise them to do is to call Peter Russo's and, and get some, you know, meet with a mental health professional who can coach you through this so that you can prepare yourself and bring your best self to the table.
Peter Roussos:Well, I mean, Shawn, I appreciate you saying that. And I want to tell you just a conversation that I have with people who are coming to me for marital therapy. And I tell them straight up that I think that I think that there are healthy and and I do a lot of work with couples who are at the very, very end of their ropes, who have been in couples therapy before feel like it didn't help them. And the conversation I like to have with them, I think is important to have with them is that I do believe that there are healthy and valid reasons to divorce. And I also believe that most divorces happen before the couple has done the kind of work that I think is necessary for marital partners to really understand why they're struggling. And to understand what the potential for change is between them, so that they can make a more fully informed decision about whether or not the marriage can be what they wanted. And that if that work isn't happened, I think that it is really important that it happened particularly if kids are involved. That's my, my bias
Shawn Weber:well, and that can happen as part of the divorce. Right? You can have
Peter Roussos:absolutely!
Shawn Weber:conversation about well, how can I now because your family is not in and we've said that before these people are all still here. So how can I have a productive relationship with this person, right. And and so that I can have a a productive exit from the relationship or change of the relationship. And I think a lot of the skills that you probably teach them as part of their marriage counseling are skills that they can have in their divorce process. In fact, I can always tell when somebody comes into mediation, where they've been the marriage, family, and marriage therapy, or couples counseling, because they use, they use skills that they've learned how they see each other, and they listen to each other, and they repeat what the other person is sad, and they try to show empathy. And that makes a huge difference when I'm mediating with somebody because they can take a moment and they can be a little more mindful of their own reactions. And they can take them home is okay. Yeah, well, what I'm trying to say is this, and I see where you're coming from. And I'm like, I was glad when that happens. And because they've had some preparation.
Peter Roussos:When I hear you talking about those kinds of couples, they sound to me like couples who, who maybe it's it's arriving at a painful decision, I think that the decision to divorce is, is almost always not always a painful decision. In fact, I would say in the going on 29 years that I've been in practice, I've had one case with a couple that I worked with it was in fact it was a collaborative divorce case, where one of the partners had absolutely no ambivalence whatsoever. And that was pathological. I mean, to really be spoke what was going on in terms of their dynamics within the relationship? I think that that what you're talking about are couples that sounds like they made the investment in therapy, and then they face the reality that they can't have the kind of marital relationship that they want to have that that and maybe it was one of them reaching that conclusion, but it was a less reactive decision because they did some of that work.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, so So I think going to therapy before you get the divorce. This is a good idea because number, even if it's just individual counseling, because you can, you can tell what are the patterns in my own personal behavior that got me in trouble here. So that you can then kind of avoid pitfalls as you get into the what is an emotional drama? When you get into the divorce, you have to talk to your spouse about it. I'll go ahead
Peter Roussos:In Part I'm curious for the two of you. In Part, I was struck by the way you said it and in wish that there was more of this people literally going to observe a court process and family. How do people appropriately informed themselves of what they should expect, financially? And within the legal the family law framework? What would you love to see if you could, you know, if you could you could ordain, what it is that people need to do in order to get the license to divorce? Well, those required
Shawn Weber:that's really good stuff. I think, number one, I would I mentioned the therapy, number two would be looking at the financial picture. So you have absolute clarity about what happens when you get divorced, you know, and that and I'd love sending people to mark and people could sit down with Mark, and he could, he could show that this is what the pie is. And this is what will happen. Most likely, if there's a divorce, and this is the pain that you will suffer as a result of these decisions. And, and here's some things that you need to think about if it is going to be a divorce. And then they can also meet with someone like me and get the legal advice. This is what will happen legally, this is what will happen with your money legally. Yes, that's that thing you thought that was your separate property is not your separate property according to the law, or whatever. And all
Mark Hill:those expenses you write off on your business are not going to be treated that way for income, right? Available for support that is, things like that, where people have misconceptions quite reasonably, because if you have a business, some people put their grocery bills on there, which may not be right. But if they can get away with it with their accountant, that'll do it, that's not gonna fly when we're working out how to do how to Despit expense income,
Shawn Weber:or having the clarity that if you get divorced, you will have a reduction in your standard of living. Two
Mark Hill:houses cost more than one? Right?
Shawn Weber:There's no way around it no way around it mathematically impossible for him to go any other way. Yep. And so I can run support numbers for people, I can let them see this. If if a judge were to decide this, this is probably what your support would be. You know, and that, that kind of mindful planning and thinking about where I'm headed, I have seen people decide, oh, well, I don't want to do this. Yeah, it's really reality. We're understanding that you're going to divide your retirement in half. That's sobering when you realize that your retirement is split and divided by two. Yeah, whether you like it or not, yeah, you earned this, you worked your whole life to contribute to this. And yes, you're gonna have to divide it in half with the person you're mad at.
Mark Hill:And that business you worked in for 28 years, and you built up to that, not only do you have to pay your spouse for half of the value, but now the income is that you derive from it is going to be showed to?
Shawn Weber:And again, can I just add one more piece to this, and that is to learn how to be mindful, yeah, learn how to be present. And what I mean by that is being able to observe yourself and your own reactions in a dispassionate way. So that you can logically assess how you're behaving and how you're reacting with other people. If you can do that, that will take you a very long way in the divorce process towards having a peaceful resolution as opposed to the warfare and think in
Mark Hill:terms of outcome. What's the outcome I would like to see is everything I'm doing, going to give me the best chance of guessing or approaching that outcome. And if people can think that way, it often stops them from the self destructive behavior we all see all the time.
Peter Roussos:I heard it said this is many years ago at a training and it was a couples therapy training. And the presenter was talking about helping people to learn how to be curious rather than furious.
Shawn Weber:Oh, I love that. Yeah, that's really good. Oh, I had a couple today like this. Like, he asked a legitimate question about a proposal that she was making. And she was furious at the question. How dare you ask that? And I said, Well, hang on a moment. Is there an answer to the question? You know, let's stop a moment. Okay, I get it that you're pissed that he's not just okay with this. But he had a question. What's your answer? You know, you And then so when she took a moment to kind of dispassionately think about what the answer was, she actually withdrew her proposal.
Mark Hill:So how would that have worked, if they've been having that discussion over the kitchen table?
Shawn Weber:Somebody would have flipped the table. I don't know.
Mark Hill:That's my point is that you find the resources to help you through this, because it's not easy.
Shawn Weber:I do tell people, I'm like, you fight well. But I want you to know, I'm a professional. And I can help you fight in a way that is productive. My job is to help you resolve your conflict and find a pathway forward, you know, get into that world you're experiencing so you can find a pathway. Well, we've been talking a long time, and I feel like we can keep going. There's, you know, we started with Oh, my gosh, the terror of the first two weeks, and then we really got into almost a Zen discussion about what can you do with your attitudes and with, you know, in preparation to make sure that this process is, is going to tell a good divorce story for you. The outcome can be positive.
Peter Roussos:You know, as you as you said that Charlotte was thinking about just even the importance of being able to normalize, for people look, these, these next couple of weeks are going to be really tough. Yeah, I plan on that prepare for that, know that that's normal. And if it if it's less difficult than you anticipate wonderful, but this is all about setting the foundation for a process going forward. That is respect based, that is appropriate that is really guided by an aspiration for a lifelong relationship with each other post divorce. But to normalize that, it's it's gonna be hard. It always is. and normalize
Mark Hill:the fact that financially, it's going to be hard, in other words, is that, you know, my take two to five years to recover from a divorce financially. And candidly, if you're at a certain point in life, you may never recover. And you may have to change your expectations dramatically. And I always say to people, when they don't like the numbers, I'm sorry, I just can't make them do anything different. The numbers are what they are.
Shawn Weber:So I've been taking some notes. While I've been talking, I've got some takeaways. Okay, so just to kind of summarize where we've been. So when you find out that the divorce is going to happen, and you get into those first few moments, the first thing is don't overreact, right. Don't panic, then don't make major changes. Until you've talked to professionals and figured it out. Get advice early, rather than waiting for things to go badly, and then get advice. And be prepared to set boundaries like that Robert Frost poem, fences make better neighbors, so be ready to build a fence that is going to be useful and set a boundary. And then the last thing if you got kids put your kids first. I miss anything,
Mark Hill:is a good summary.
Peter Roussos:Yeah. Beautiful.
Shawn Weber:Somebody write that down. Okay. So let me ask Pete, you know, if people want to talk to someone about me emotionally preparing themselves for a divorce or for a relationship ending, who should they call?
Peter Roussos:Well, off the top of my head shot. You know, this is something that that, that I love to try to help people with it. And quite honestly, my hope is that I get to see them before they reach that point. But this is certainly I absolutely believe that it's in life's toughest circumstances where the greatest growth opportunities are. So if people are contemplating a divorce, and I'd like to talk to somebody about what that means and what it's going to take from them and for them in order to have it be a growth, opportunity and respect based and appropriate. I would be happy to talk with them about that. They can certainly reach me by my website, which is Peter Russo's dot com. Got a lot of information there about my background and my approach, couple of videos of interviews that that I've done and they can email me directly from my website.
Shawn Weber:Thanks, Peter. Roussos Peter, like it sounds then Roussos r o u s. S. O S. Yeah.
Peter Roussos:Exactly. Yeah,
Shawn Weber:either. roussos.com There you have. Yeah. And Mark. They're worried about their money in preparing for this big major event. What should they do?
Mark Hill:Go to my website. Company is Pacific divorce Management, LLC. My website is packed divorce.com PAC di Bo rce.com and our contact form is now working?
Shawn Weber:Well, it's about
Mark Hill:time. It's about time, but it is. So please fill out a contact form and we will respond within the next business day.
Shawn Weber:And if you need to work worried about the legal or if you just have a dispute that needs resolving My website is Weber dispute resolution.com We're in the business of connecting people with the mediator that can help them resolve their dispute so that they don't have to have a fight. They can solve a problem. Again, that's Weber dispute resolution.com
Mark Hill:And that's Weber would one be like the grill?
Shawn Weber:That's right, or the brand. People come at me with brand? Okay, I didn't even know there was a sandy Alright guys, well, this was fun. Pete, welcome aboard.
Peter Roussos:Oh, thank you guys. This was a lot of fun. I really appreciate being able to share the time with you. Thank you.
Shawn Weber:All right, and those of you in podcast land. Thanks for listening. And if you liked what you heard, please tell someone and give us a like. Thanks for listening to another episode of the three wisemen divorce, money, Psych, and law. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe. Leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique. So no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.