Sometimes a divorce case gets stuck because the professionals or the clients have not taken the time to prepare the case to be ready to settle. Impasse is sometimes nothing more than not having the facts or the emotions ready to find a solution. Learn what it takes to achieve "settlement readiness".
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
Sometimes a divorce case gets stuck because the professionals or the clients have not taken the time to prepare the case to be ready to settle. Impasse is sometimes nothing more than not having the facts or the emotions ready to find a solution. Learn what it takes to achieve "settlement readiness".
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
And we haven't said anything irreverent yet. So if you got anything and Reverend, let's make sure we get out of the way. Let's make sure we say it.
Mark Hill:It'll come up whether we try it. It's just part of who we are.
Shawn Weber:Welcome to the three wise men of divorce, money, Psych and law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, marriage and family therapist, Pete Russo's and attorney Shawn Weber. For a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co parenting and the difficult decisions, real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you are looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 60 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to help by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation, and co parenting.
Mark Hill:Welcome everyone to the wise men divorce Podcast. I'm Mark Hill and together with my co hosts, Peter Russo's MFT and Sean Weber, illustrious family law attorney, we're going to talk about the concept of settlement readiness, what does it take to get a couple to the point where they are ready to settle a case, we work in alternative dispute resolution. So you can't get coerced into this, you have to be ready. And I've always argued you need to be ready financially, other words, understand the money and understand what your life is going to look like post divorce from a financial standpoint, understand your legal rights and obligations. And sometimes what might happen if this case were to go to court. And also from a psychological standpoint, you need to be ready to truly let the relationship go in its current form and perhaps created in a reconstituted.
Shawn Weber:Know, I appreciate that you said that we're an alternative dispute resolution, because if you go to court, nobody cares whether you're ready. Exactly. They just you go to court, and a lot of times you're not ready, and then you're not sure what really happened at court until your attorney explains it afterwards. And I've heard you describe it as a violation.
Mark Hill:That's how it felt one time to meet. Yes.
Peter Roussos:You know, I think even in the context of alternative dispute resolution that goes back to what we talked about last time, the notion of a mission statement, you know, do people want to be ready for a grit your teeth settlement? Or do they want to be ready for something that that feels collaborative and sets the stage for a future relationship, as CO parents, for example, that they can feel good about that's healthy about. So it's even it's it's it's settlement readiness is nuanced, and still driven by I think the the goals and objectives that people hopefully define for themselves at the outset about where they want to arrive.
Mark Hill:Yeah, and that doesn't happen in the court process. No, I mean, your net, it's never thinking in terms of outcome, but more in terms of how can I maximize my benefit right now. And that's why it ends up often being very poor in the long term, because the focus can be so short term, I need support right now. As much as I can get.
Shawn Weber:Well, it becomes warfare in the relationship be damned. Exactly. You know, I A lot of times, you know, I always say this mark, I get it that when people come into my office, it's not because things are butterflies and rainbows and fairy dust. But they've not been getting along, they've had there's a reason why we're here getting a divorce. But maybe we can honor what was good about the relationship. So you can kind of have that, quote, unquote, good karma, that kind of divorce where you you can leave with not as horrible of a taste in your mouth. We also get those cases where people are absolutely they hate each other, and they still want to be able to be ready to settle.
Mark Hill:And sometimes it's based around the fact that there are children and they feel a responsibility to the child and or perhaps that Toad towards this soon to be ex spouse,
Shawn Weber:or they don't want to do any more damage to their nest egg than they've already done.
Mark Hill:That's nice sometimes, too.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. Yeah, I
Peter Roussos:think you know, what we're talking about now is maybe I think one of the challenges that the professionals in these cases face in terms of how we manage our own expectations and what's what's the difference for us between working with with those couples where both people are really committed to to grit, your teeth kind of settlement, and the emotionality that goes with that, that we then have to manage and try to shepherd them through, versus those other cases where people really are interested and committed and invested in coming from what's best in them to arrive at something that is going to be more healthy and collaborative,
Mark Hill:willing to take a journey themselves in this process. I had a call today with a lady that I've been working on her case for a little over a year. And she was very much the stay at home spouse didn't really, you know, understand what was going on with husbands business and the money focused on raising three children. And she said to me today, she said, you know, you said this to me a year ago, that I would grow in this and become more competent. And I don't recall saying that, but I do set that and have been. And she said, it's happened. I'm managing my own budget, I'm competent. I know, I go into the meetings now ready to ask my questions, as opposed to being embarrassed that my question might be stupid. And I think that that's a journey from somebody who's willing to look at themselves and understand their shortcomings and try to work on it throughout the process. And that's, and that's the reward for me, frankly, when that happens in the case, I It's like, yes, sometimes it's just getting the case done. And it's triage at the end, and we just have to get the deal out. And it's unsatisfactory, but the work is completed. Right? This is work that will be completed with the reward for the professional of actually seeing somebody grow up.
Shawn Weber:So maybe that's a part of Okay, so that's one of the elements of settlement readiness, I was going to ask you, well, what does it mean to be settlement ready, but one of the elements is the ability to be able to negotiate on your own behalf, to be able to come into a meeting with both of your feet on the ground and your your head in the game and ready to start talking about what the settlement will be? Yes. And Pete, we've seen that some people just aren't there yet. They can't even they're so horrified by the fact that they're getting divorced, that they can't even think about what makes sense.
Peter Roussos:Well, and actually, as we're talking about it, you guys tell me if this is going a bit far afield, but I think what, what we as professionals, Lawson often has to assess, is, you know, if people are coming into mediation or ADR, because they think it will be less expensive, but they're not prepared to be collaborative. Those are the really challenging cases. You know, those are the ones that I think often, we might limp through to a settlement. But they can be brutal cases, brutal people and brutal for the professionals.
Shawn Weber:Well, and reaching the resolute or let me rephrase that reaching the understanding that the person you're divorcing is still the person you're divorcing. You know, they're not going to suddenly change and have a, you know, a brain transplant a personality transplant, just because you filed a petition.
Mark Hill:And I've seen you say this, I've heard short silence to people, when you hear the one client saying how awful their spouses and so on, he will pause and look at them and say, you know, you might want to consider a divorce. And it breaks it to the point best. That's right. That's why I am getting with a fin slasher.
Shawn Weber:Oh, yeah, that's right. The reason why I'm divorcing this turkey, you know, but I mean, like I said, we get it, there's a reason why you're here. But don't expect that all of a sudden, this person is going to change and be a wonderful kind, understanding negotiator. They're going to be who they are. And then you got to make sure that you bring to the table who you are, and have the capability to be able to advocate for yourself, even if you've hired attorneys, but to be able to wrap your head around what is happening so that you can make decisions in a rational way. It takes some work for some people to get to that point. Because I've seen people you know, they just go right into that fight or flight mode. That you know, that adrenaline thing where they just kind of their prefrontal cortex stop shuts down and they're left with their lizard brain. And they're just thinking about survival. You know, am I going to kill this person? Or am I going to run for my wife
Peter Roussos:so that you're talking about a more reactive dynamic and wondering in some ways about the universe, those couples who come in who have been so disengaged in, in part because the conflict avoidant, you know, and how they each find the courage to do what you're talking about, Shawn, but which is to engage in to define what They want
Shawn Weber:to deploy. Yeah. And isn't that the flight like we have the flight. On the one hand, we have the fight on the other hand. And there's some people that I just want to avoid this conflict. And in
Mark Hill:those cases can be really challenging because the real issues don't come out until you believe you may believe you have a settlement in place, then somebody will go, well, we never talked about ABC and D, and you got when you never raised ABC. Yeah, I didn't want to upset her.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, well, we better talk about it. Yeah, I had a conversation with someone that I was close to, where I kind of told my truth, and set it in a very clear way. I wasn't mean, but I just laid it out there. This is what I think is happening. And this is the boundary that I think you're crossing, and I'm not okay with this. And then this person said to me, Well, I thought you were a conflict resolver, that was really conflictual, and that was very strong. And, and I remember saying, Well, you know, conflict, you know, peace is not achieved by avoiding conflict. Peace is achieved by managing conflict, and you can't manage conflict unless you know what the conflict is. So sometimes people have to have the courage to just lay it out on the table, what is this that we are fighting about or upset about, so that we can then resolve it.
Mark Hill:And one thing I've seen someone like Pete do is help people do that in a way that doesn't rehash the fights of the last 25 years in America. I statements as most of you always, I never forget the chart, you will always, as opposed to my experience of what happens when this occurs is as follows. You can't argue with that one. But if I say you always do that, to me, what kind of reaction and again again, so again, helping with some communication coaching for hopefully, in their new reformed relationship if they have children, but just as as almost like a device to help them through meetings, so they get to say, at the same time, don't trigger a reaction that is so powerful to have that resource at the table for us.
Shawn Weber:I really like that when statement comment or if statement when you talk about your 401k Like it's 100% yours, and you're not going to share it with me, it makes me frightened for my future. You know, that kind of statement is much more effective. Have you always threatened me with your 401k?
Peter Roussos:Well, it's it's the, you know, the difference between being honest and an appropriate way, which is really the most important, I think, intention that people can have and being honest in an inappropriate way. The you know, the and I think another aspect of this is how we teach people that they really have a responsibility to pick their battles. What are the things that they have to they have to litigate as part of a healthy settlement process and a moving forward? And and the long standing battles that that serve no purpose in terms of perpetuating not only through a settlement process, but to the post divorce co parenting relationship?
Mark Hill:Go ahead. Well, so what you're saying is that you're being honest by saying, yes, those jeans do make your butt back, because perhaps displays that I'm just being honest. Right? What do you do? Jeez,
Peter Roussos:how many times do we hear in cases? A person say something inflammatory? And and then defend it by saying, well, that's just how I feel.
Mark Hill:Right? Yeah,
Shawn Weber:I can't help I had one lady. I can't help it. I'm Portuguese. I have to say this, like, No, you don't you're not your computer. Just because I push a button doesn't mean that something has to happen. Yeah, well, how many times have you heard this one, um, I, I thought I was married to someone else. And then I found out he had affairs with women. And now I don't know who I married, and I can't trust him at all. And I don't trust the word he says now. I mean, we hear that a lot. And it's rational. I thought I could trust him and the most important promise he made to me in the world, which was our marriage vows, and now, you know, before God and the priest and everybody, but now I hear that turned out to be a lie. That's how I'm perceiving it. And now I think he's gonna lie to me about what's in his bank accounts. I mean, what do you do about that mark?
Mark Hill:I step in and I go, You know what, it's very hard to hide anything because everything's tied to every account is tied to social security number. I try and go through how challenging it is. To hide money. It really is these days, I mean 20 or 30 years ago, all I had to see was, you know, Royal Bank of Canada or something in the Cayman Islands, and I knew I was in trouble. Now you can have accounts all over the world, but they have to be disclosed. And if someone's willing to lie on their tax return and commit the federal crime. Hopefully we would identify that kind of character in the collaborative or the mediating process. One of the things that scares the moneyed spouse is the idea that their spouse is the smartest guy in the room, so to speak, will come in and charm everybody in snow. Everybody under,
Shawn Weber:you don't understand how slick he is
Mark Hill:exactly. Yet. I've yet to find a client that knows more than me. And that includes some lawyers. Always processing money. That's why I've done this for so long, is to be able to say that.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, I mean, I had so many clients that think they know how to hide money. And it never goes, well. You know, it always it always comes out, especially if you have professionals helping you get to the bottom of things. And, you know, it's Trust, but verify.
Mark Hill:Exactly. And also tell the story about the Los Angeles lottery winner who forgot to net is too soon to be husband that, you know, she'd won the lottery when he found out the judge warded, 100% of the winnings to the husband. Not yet. Yeah, exactly. So So again, you tell that story. And I will often do it in front of both clients on a joint for not that you guys would ever do this. But this is how serious it is that
Shawn Weber:the court can do really mean things to people that don't disclose. Yeah. And we always find out, that's what I always say, we always know.
Peter Roussos:You know, I think that there's also the linkage between somebody coming into a process with those kinds of fears, questioning, does this other person have their best interests at heart. And what it is that they aspire to visa vie a future relationship, because I think the reality is, if somebody is hoping that they're going to be able to, to collaborate, as CO parents with an ex partner, for example, the bottom line is that people are willing and able to define that kind of future relationship. The reality is, they've got to go forward, being willing to risk finding out that their worst fears are true in order to find out that they're not true. Alternative. Resolution is a, it is a leap of faith, ultimately, it is a leap of faith, just like going forward and trying to affect change in terms of a co parenting relationship. And so, I mean, what do you do when somebody says that they absolutely positively 100%? Don't trust the other person? If that's where they're operating from, then, you know, what is it they expected the process, I would be concerned about? A client who comes in with that mindset, wanting to abdicate the responsibility they have for decision making
Mark Hill:a call, let them do that. Yeah. But I mean, I've said to clients who come in just oh, he's ski hide, since he's got so many ads, you have no idea where what he's doing is, you're never catching? Well, Guillo, I've said to a half a dozen times to people. Well, it's perfectly appropriate to go and hire a forensic accountant to do that work. That's not my qualification. We can do pretty good tracing in the office, but we're not forensic accountants and don't pretend to be, but we can hire someone like that. I think only on one occasion. Did we do
Shawn Weber:that? Did you actually hire the forensic? Exactly, yeah.
Mark Hill:And I'm, if I say half a dozen times, it's probably two dozen times. But it tends to as you go through the process, of what you're doing is, is building trust with both sides so that you can get the data and then disseminated in understandable form to the unmanaged spam so that the playing field becomes level. And that's the empowerment that the unmanaged spouse hopefully gets to feel during the case, so that they can go in with reasonable questions. They're not going to become the expert. They don't need to be they've got resources at the table to help. So I think that when we can, assuage these fears, but give sort of the off ramp to people if they need it, yeah, you want a forensic accounting, we'll get you don't worry, you know, we can do that. But let's try this first and see how comfortable you are with it. So that's how I approach that.
Shawn Weber:And that really is the first pillar readiness, isn't it? Do you have the data? You need to be able to make decisions? Yeah. So I mean that I mean, when we spend that I always call that informational stage at the beginning of the case, what in litigation they call the discovery process. But that is where we are gathering the data about everything, about the money about the kids about everything. And do you have all of that information at your fingertips so that you can make reasonable decisions? And then the other piece of information I think that you mentioned before we got on the call, or on this zoom is is? Do you have the legal information you need? So there's the financial information, there's the legal information, you have the legal information? Do you know what your rights are? Do you know what the other party's rights are? What are your vulnerabilities in your case? What are your strengths in your case? Are you aware of what your best case scenario could be if you went to court or what your worst case scenario could be? If you went to court? Have you thought about how much peace and joy you will have just to have this behind you right now, if you had an agreement today? You know, that's really huge. That you know, and then the third pillar, I think, that we mentioned, is, are you emotionally ready to let go of this marriage? Sometimes that's not always a straightforward answer. I had one client
Mark Hill:who never did then is later she's still estranged from her children, and still trying to go after the guy every couple of years, I get crazy email. Not crazy. I got an email from this lady who cannot let go of something that was settled 10 years or more.
Shawn Weber:Still struggling with the pain of the of the relationship? And yes, yeah, yeah.
Mark Hill:That's tragic. But we weren't able to help. And she wasn't able to be helped
Peter Roussos:is the way I you know, I think the the, in some ways, the flip side of that, if you will, are those those cases where we see the partners who are willing to actually grieve the loss of the marriage together? That's part of the process. Yeah, actually grieving and acknowledging what was the big picture of that relationship, that good, the struggles, but that they do that grieving work as part of their their dissolution process?
Shawn Weber:Well, I that it really wouldn't be that, you know, if we could see that more in cases, that would be really mutual collaborative experience where people can grieve together. A lot of times, and we see this a lot, and we talked about this before is that, you know, there's those Kubler Ross stages of grief, where people start with an initial denial, and then there's bargaining and then there's anger and depression, and then they finally get to acceptance. And what we find a lot of times is you have this leave, or that's already done all of those stages, and is that acceptance? And is that's why they're in your office in the first place. And then you have the person that just found out about it yesterday. And it's hard to grieve together when you've had that kind of dynamic, but what what suggestions would you make for people that are kind of at different stages in their grief and can't synchronize that. But I think for the person who's
Peter Roussos:out in front, you know, to recognize that they have had this chance this processing that the other person has not had the opportunity to do. And one of the things, I think the thing that can be most painful for the person who is the you know, the last to know, if you will, is that sense of oh my god, how easy it seems to be for the leave or, and even the conclusions that they draw about what the marriage must not have meant to him or her if they're so eager to leave? What did the marriage me and for that for the person who is out in front to realize that if they want to not only complete their own grieving process, but to help the other person to grieve? It's important to acknowledge what the marriage did me, what were the strengths? What were the challenges to be patient, they willing to be kinder, they're willing to be compassionate, are they willing to process? And and it's, sadly, I think it's the relative it's the relatively rare case where that happens. But I think it's important that we established the at least as an invitation, the value and the importance of people going there.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, I have so many of my clients in mediations that say, Oh, we don't want to talk about this. This is this is not a therapy session.
Peter Roussos:They don't want to do couples therapy anymore. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right.
Shawn Weber:And I'm like, but But you know, is I always say to them, it's really going to help you to get to settlement readiness. If we can have a lot of clarity, and sometimes talking about these painful things, and being really open and honest out our grief and our hurt. Yeah, can help us get to where we need to go.
Peter Roussos:You know, and and potentially save you money?
Shawn Weber:Yes. Well, they think they're wasting money by talking about it was right. Yeah. I'm like no, no when you talk about it here that lubricates the ball bearings so that we can get to an agreement,
Mark Hill:and also avoid you talking about it out there and having a fight about it in the next meeting when you come in.
Shawn Weber:Right? Yeah. It's like when you put a if you have a splinter in your finger, and you don't do anything about it, it's gonna fester and get past it and kind of gross. But if you get that splinter out, and do what you need to train it, treat it when you pull it out. Yeah. Does it hurt sometimes? Yeah. It does. And that's how people are, don't you agree? Yeah. Well, this is a good conversation. I think I think it would be really helpful for folks, when they're thinking about going in their case, just and knowing that it's a process, it's not going to be like their to settlement readiness immediately. It may take them some time. But to think about getting to that legal, that Eken, you know, that financial and the emotional getting those three pillars together, to make them ready to settle.
Mark Hill:And awareness of that spouse has to be there to sorry,
Peter Roussos:no, no, I love the way that we're talking about this. And the importance of this information in terms of orienting people at the very, very start of the process. This is what it takes. This is what's going to help you. I think that one I think that that it's this kind of information that helps settle people down. Yeah. But but to I think there's there's a crease in expectation around something that is maybe more comprehensive than most people think is going to be involved or coming into it think they want to be involved in. And so I think by laying it out in this way, we do set the stage or the potential create more of a potential potential for those kinds of I think what we all would regard is the the ideal kind of case, the healthy kind of process between people ending a marriage
Mark Hill:or listening to seek I had a case in the last week where I had to do the financial reveal, that showed their spending about four to $5,000 a month more than they have income and I've been doing for years. And wife was absolutely in a position where she was shocked, but she dealt with it over two or three days. Now she understands a lot of stuff that's going on in the marriage, but it was a hard reveal. But we need to wrap up here. Definitely. So yeah,
Shawn Weber:keep talking. But But yeah, well, go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. I'm talking to you
Mark Hill:know, I have to say if they need dispute resolution, from a legal standpoint, how would they contact you sure,
Shawn Weber:they would contact Weber dispute resolution.com Just visit that website, Weber dispute resolution.com That's Weber with one be like the grill and we will match you with a dispute resolver that will help you settle your case.
Mark Hill:And MFT extraordinaire Peter Russo's how they contact you.
Peter Roussos:You're cute to through my website, which is Peter Russo's dot com P e t e r r o u s, s, o s.com. S as in Sam.
Mark Hill:And if you need help on the financial side, understanding how this all works, go to my website, Pax divorce.com pacd IB o RCE. Thanks, everybody. And we will be back in a couple of weeks with another of these.
Shawn Weber:Thanks for listening to another episode of the three Wiseman of divorce, money, Psych, and law. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe. Leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique. So no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.