The Critical Role of Attorneys in Divorce Mediation

Discover the surprising truth behind the role of attorneys in divorce mediation and why you should never underestimate their value in steering you toward fair outcomes. As we navigate the complexities of legal separation, we shatter the myth that mediators can, or should, replace the need for expert legal advice. Their seasoned insights reveal the nuances of choosing a lawyer who doesn't just understand the mediation process but champions it, ensuring your decisions are both informed and align with your objectives.

Embark on a practical exploration of how to select an attorney who prioritizes efficiency and cooperation—traits that can not only lower costs but also reduce stress. The Three Wisemen of Divorce explore the vital balance between legal advocacy and the collaborative essence of mediation, a balance that empowers you to maintain control of your divorce journey. Learn how the right legal counsel operates, whether they're offering guidance from behind the scenes or actively participating in mediation sessions, and how they can protect your interests without sacrificing the spirit of cooperation.

Finally, we delve into what it means to work with a truly mediation-friendly family law attorney, one who's equipped with specific mediation training and a deep understanding of the collaborative process. We emphasize the strategic value of involving your lawyer early on, particularly when it comes to crafting a robust marital settlement agreement that reflects all parties' voices. Our expert panel lays out the importance of legal expertise in forging a cooperative resolution, ensuring that every decision made in mediation respects your goals and stands up to legal scrutiny. Tune in for an eye-opening discussion that may just change the way you view lawyers in the world of divorce mediation.

The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.

© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.

Transcript

Shawn Weber: 0:00

But anyway. Well, why don't we get started? Yeah, yeah.

Peter Roussos: 0:03

And I think we can.

Shawn Weber: 0:05

Maybe what we can do is we can introduce this as a series Like. This is part one. We're going to talk about why it's important to have attorneys involved in your mediation, but stay tuned. We're going to talk about why it's important to have a financial professional and why it would be important to have a mental health professional involved in your doors case. Yeah, sounds good. Ok, do you guys know any good lawyer jokes? Welcome to the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, marriage and family therapist Pete Russoes and attorney Sean Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co-parenting and the difficult decisions real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you are looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 60 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co-parenting.

Mark Hill: 1:18

Well, the guy who passed away and you know, in his mid-40s and went up to the pearly gates and was talking to St Peter and St Peter looking in his sheet and he goes, my Lord, I was expecting a much older man he goes. Oh, you were just going by my billable hours.

Shawn Weber: 1:41

Or the joke like why is it that the sharks don't eat lawyers when they fall overboard?

Mark Hill: 1:46

They think er, you're there to help them find Correct, yeah, so it's easier for him to get hang from her arms when she's in a meeting with her guy. He'll be fine if I ask the sameuriether, but I ask his audience when you be here and you're about to meet me, if you may, absolutely Also for love at the very beginning.

Peter Roussos: 2:11

So it's theiche of the matter that what do you call a thousand lawyers chained together at the bottom of the ocean? A Good start, a good start.

Shawn Weber: 2:25

It's like you heard. You heard about the airplane that crashed. There was good news and bad news. The good news it was all of the passengers were lawyers. That was good news, mm-hmm. The bad news is one of the chairs was empty.

Peter Roussos: 2:40

I. Don't often get this feeling, guys, but right now I have that little discomfort that goes when we're we. I think it's happened once or twice Before, when he talked about things that I thought move. Is this appropriate?

Shawn Weber: 2:58

fool Macabre.

Mark Hill: 3:00

Yeah well, we like irreverent yeah.

Peter Roussos: 3:02

Yes, yes, yes.

Shawn Weber: 3:04

Well, well. And the other thing is you know, we know about our audience. Mm-hmm that there are a lot of folks in the audience that just really have a poor opinion of attorneys. Yeah, and there's a reason for that. I think there's some attorneys that are absolutely frankly terrible, and they're usually the ones that have the billboard on the highway. Yeah you know, and, and they richly deserve their reputation, but what happens is they ruin it for the rest of us well so.

Peter Roussos: 3:36

So what? I'm curious, you know, Shawn, when you think about that kind of attorney, you know what are some of the stereotypes that it's all about the bill of the lours that they're, you know, just trying to be competitive as a way of combative, as a way of earning additional fees right, I gotta suck you dry. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, it's, it's so. What is it that that you think distinguishes an exemplary Attorney? And let's, let's keep it in the context of a non adversarial process that we're all committed to.

Shawn Weber: 4:12

Yeah, so I, you know we were talking about. You know we all believe in mediation, right? Yeah, yeah, where you can do things outside of court and divorce mediation is a great way to do things. I've always thought that the adversarial process that you have when you go to litigation is destructive to families, so it's why I stopped litigating. But but I think there are some good qualities to an attorney participating in your mediation and I think a lot of times people wrongly think oh, I'm gonna go to mediation, that means I don't need to hire an attorney. Yeah, and I think that's a mistake.

Shawn Weber: 4:48

I think Because the the role of the mediator, even if that mediator is an attorney himself or herself, it's important to understand what that person's role is. So when I'm in a, when I'm a mediator on a case, I have to be neutral. I always tell people I'm Switzerland, but I. That means that I am not in a position where I can protect you. I Can't protect your interests, I can't advocate for you, you know I I can't say, oh well, this deal isn't fair, so you should not sign it, right.

Mark Hill: 5:26

I always say I you know, I cannot give you advice right. I give you information, but I cannot give you advice right From your lawyer.

Shawn Weber: 5:38

I can tell you all day this is what the court would do. This is what the family code says. Yeah, this is what I think might happen if you went to court. This is what a lot of other people do, but that should or should not piece that you're talking about there, mark. Yeah, that's for the lawyer to advise you. That's advice, and there's a distinction there and and. And. So you know I was mentioning to you before we started recording, pete, that about half my mediation clients are. They have advising attorneys involved in their case about how some don't, and I will tell you that. You know there are some cases where it's so simple that they probably can get away with it, but most cases they definitely benefit from having attorney involved and I think the outcomes tend to be more equitable and more Fair even though I sometimes say fair is the F word. They tend to be better outcomes for the couple in terms of having a mutually agreeable, respectful agreement.

Peter Roussos: 6:42

So if we bring it back to the cost, containment or finances or or even the you know stereotypical lawyer that's just trying to run up the fees, what? What do you notice about the? The cost differential between mediation processes where they have consulting attorneys and those cases where they they don't?

Shawn Weber: 7:09

I don't think it costs them anymore. Okay, let me rephrase that. I've seen mistakes made where people agree to things that they maybe shouldn't, that I'm not able to tell them. You should not agree to that.

Mark Hill: 7:23

Like a life insurance policy that goes in perpetuity.

Shawn Weber: 7:26

Oh yeah, I had a guy that I talked to the other day. I did not mediate this case. He mediated with somebody else and he has a life insurance policy that was required as security for future alimony. He agreed to keep that life insurance $500,000, but didn't put a termination date on it. So that agreement probably made tons of sense.

Shawn Weber: 7:54

When he was 40, when he could afford the life insurance policy, he had a currently existing life insurance policy. But when he's getting older and the term ran out on his 20-year term and now he's 70 and he can't afford the premiums that would be required to pay for this simple half-million-dollar term policy. He's had some health issues. I mean this isn't going to happen. So he's in bad shape because he's required by his agreement that he signed to have that life insurance policy. Now if he'd had that reviewed by an attorney before he signed it and I checked with him he did not If he'd had that thing reviewed by an attorney before he signed it, the attorney would have caught that and said, oh, you got to have a termination date. Good attorney would have. Any reasonably good attorney would have saw that would have seen that. But because he was thinking, he was trying to be nice and he was going to save money, didn't do that and then missed out. The mediator didn't protect him. I think the mediator probably drafted a badly drafted agreement. That does happen.

Peter Roussos: 9:11

Well, sean, let me ask you, he's an attorney to protect him. Sean, let me ask you just in terms of mediation process, I give neutrality and not being an advocate for either party. If you're sitting with clients and this question of insurance comes up, can you be neutral but still say, okay, you guys are talking about doing this. Let's talk about what happens when you are 65 years old, or 70 years old Like. Is there a way that you can address those concerns, but do it from that more neutral perspective?

Shawn Weber: 9:50

I do it by asking questions. Go ahead, Mark.

Mark Hill: 9:53

Well, I also think that what's the insurance for? It's usually to ensure support. Support usually ends at some point when work terminates for the payor. So, building that into the conversation, and also when I'm dealing with insurance, it's like that's a declining obligation. So you get divorced at 40 and you're going to work to 65. You've got 25 years of obligation. That's a large number. Halfway through that period, 12 years to go, that's only half the obligation you have, so you don't have the need for as large an insurance policy. So often what I'll suggest is put two or three policies in place with different durations that will drop off, so that you're not being overcharged for it, frankly. But again, this is the ability to have people that do this all the time at the table advising you.

Mark Hill: 10:56

Going back to one thing you said before about lawyers, I wanted to make a comment that there are lawyers and lawyers. When I mediate a case, I always tell them I will require you to get a lawyer because I can't give legal advice and I've got to be very careful about the unauthorized practice of law. I want you to have consulting attorneys in place or, at the very least, a neutral party lawyer that will draw up the agreement. Well then I do all the CYA letters too if that's the case. But then if I get a pushback, my response is wait a minute. There's lawyers and lawyers.

Mark Hill: 11:38

The lawyers I'm going to recommend have two benefits to them. Number one they're mediation friendly. They're not going to blow the deal up and try to get you to go to court so they can earn more money. Number two they know our work so they have a confidence about the documents and the numbers that we produced, so they don't feel the obligation to go ahead and redo the work to cover their themselves. So I think it's not just the benefit of having a lawyer, but having the right lawyer.

Shawn Weber: 12:14

I think that's true. Not every lawyer is created equally, and so you want to interview your lawyers, because what you're looking for you're not looking for someone to take a $20,000 retainer and take over your case and become the attorney of record and go to court for you. That's not what you're looking for. What you're looking for is somebody that be willing to take a smaller retainer or be willing to be paid hourly in order to just give you the advice you need to be able to make the decisions during mediation that you need to make, and you know that's a very important distinction. I usually coach people on. You know, when you're hiring that attorney, this is what the kind of thing you're looking for. Make sure you explain to the attorney that you're in mediation, that all you want them to do is provide advice and that you will be making all the decisions. Thank you very much. And if you get pushback from that attorney to like, no, I can't let you do that. If I'm representing you stuff like that I can't let my client do things. Those are the people you want to avoid. People that charge enormous retainers, that want to start filing motions immediately. Those are the people to avoid. But the person is like oh yeah, so when you go to your mediation, here's some tips on how you might do in the mediation regarding your particular issues, and then come back to me and tell me how it goes and I'll give you more advice. That's the kind of person you want you know.

Shawn Weber: 13:43

And there's also two ways that attorneys tend to participate in mediation. One is they will be, as I just spoke of here, just a completely advising attorney, completely in the background. Nobody ever really hears from that attorney, except for you when you're meeting with your attorney to get advice and maybe to review the agreement. And then there's the attorney that will actually come to the meetings with you and will help with the negotiation process and actually represent you during the mediation sessions. And that's a different kind of level of involvement. Not every case requires that, but a lot of them will benefit from that and I've seen it go very well.

Shawn Weber: 14:29

And particularly when you have cases where the clients have a bad dynamic with each other, or the clients are struggling to kind of understand what the law is, and so they need to run off to their attorney and they say, well, I can't agree to anything until I talk to my attorney, and then two weeks passes and they come back and they have a proposal that's kind of not in line with what you guys have been talking about. That's when I'm like, okay, let's bring the attorneys into the room so they can be aware of what the negotiations were and that you can get your advice in real time, and I find that that actually can save money. Sometimes people get concerned because it's like, oh, we're going to have to pay this attorney now to be in the room with us, but I think it actually saves money, because what would take eight hours of mediation without an attorney? In this situation you could do it in an afternoon and resolve the whole case.

Mark Hill: 15:27

And yeah, and also not have to reschedule another meeting Right After. You know outside meetings have occurred with the attorneys.

Shawn Weber: 15:36

You can get your advice right there, yeah, and in a way as a mediator, I will not typically do a mediation where only one person has an attorney present. If one person is going to have an attorney present, then I need the other person to also have an attorney present because otherwise it's not a balanced environment. The only time I kind of slipped from that is when I had one case where in this particular case, the husband was a very strong-willed person, very strong personality, and held his own just fine, and that was just kind of a case-by-case kind of thing. And then I had another case where one of the parties actually was an attorney and it was just a totally different experience for that person because they actually knew the law, although I cautioned that person you know I've represented certified family law specialists in family law cases because they recognize that their emotions got in the way of good representation and they needed to have an attorney who was not them representing them. So even in those situations, you know, you got to be careful.

Peter Roussos: 16:40

Something that I've heard the two of you say often is that one of the really important foundational elements of mediation is that this is the way that the parties retain the power of their decision-making. They're not seething decision-making to a court or to a judge. I am curious Does it happen you have the experience of clients and mediation insisting on something that you think is really ill-advised? It's understood between them, but really ill-advised?

Mark Hill: 17:20

Yes, what do you do in those?

Peter Roussos: 17:21

circumstances.

Mark Hill: 17:23

You basically? Well, the classic one is one wants to keep the house and it's not affordable, but they are so locked into it that you know there's the only stable thing left in their life. Everything is falling apart. If I can't have the house, the world will end, and it's not always the woman, it's sometimes the man. The reality is that all you can do is basically from my position, if I'm mediating, is that well, you could do this? But I'm really worried about where you're going to be five years down the road. Till then, you know, when the kids go to college and then this child support drops off and you are now alone in this big house, still having to maintain it, your income will have dropped. You know I can't see how this is going to work well for you financially. That's the way I would couch the conversation. But I've had people come back and say I don't care. That house is everything to me and I want it, and I always wonder where they are five or 10 years down the road.

Shawn Weber: 18:29

One of my colleagues was describing a case that she was mediating where the wife was just giving up spousal support. She was entitled to a very large amount of spousal support and she was just completely weighing away. But she's like I don't care, no spousal support, it's totally fine. And this mediator is very concerned about this, and during a caucus session where she was like one-on-one, she said what are you doing here? You need to talk to an attorney about this. You need to understand that you have the right to spousal support. And have you talked to an attorney? And she said well, listen, you got to understand. I went away from this guy and I also know that my family is very wealthy and I'm about to be a recipient of a large inheritance and I'm going to be fine and I just want rid of this guy. I want to buy my piece so I never have to deal with him again. And if that means I don't get spousal support from him, that's fine. And so in that case, the person had a really good reason for that, why they wanted to do something really odd and off the wall. But what every mediator does in a circumstance like this is okay. Well, have you talked to an attorney about that. You need to talk to an attorney about that.

Shawn Weber: 19:42

I've had one case where well, not one, but this one is sticking out in my mind in particular, where I absolutely insisted there be an attorney advising. And this guy, he had been a bad boy, there had been affairs and he had done some things that he shouldn't have done, and so the wife was going to stick it to him. And I kind of don't blame her. He was actually. He wasn't a jerk, you know, but you know we're in California, it's a no fault state, and he was. She dictated the terms of the marital settlement agreement. It was like he was going to give up 100% of his retirement to her and she was going to control all of his money and decide how much of it he's allowed to have.

Shawn Weber: 20:25

It was just so draconian. And I said to him I said I can't write this until you've had an attorney review it. You know you need to consult with an attorney. So he did talk to an attorney and the attorney did the same thing I did. This is crazy and then went really over the, you know, spent a lot of time explaining to him why and did a very beautiful. It was like a five page CYA letter saying do not sign this. And he's like I'm going to do it anyway. And then I told him and the attorney you know I'm really good at writing these agreements I'm going to write an agreement that's going to be enforceable, it's going to do what it says. He's like I know I want to do it anyway, but at least I knew he had an attorney review and I take the position that people are big boys and girls, you know, and as long as they have the information, their consent is informed, they are allowed to be idiots.

Mark Hill: 21:21

Don't let's gloss over that. That's the term that's so critical here Informed consent you can consent to anything as long as you have the information in order to make that decision.

Shawn Weber: 21:32

Yeah, and if you want to still be a moron about it, that's up to you, that's completely on you, absolutely. But at least you knew. You can't come back then and say, oh well, I didn't realize, like this poor guy with the insurance policy, yeah, yeah. And if he had known that he had a right, you know, I don't know what the mediator told him in this case because I wasn't the mediator on it but if he had known that he needed to have a termination date on that, he might have made different choices.

Mark Hill: 22:06

You would think that any rational person would make different choices.

Shawn Weber: 22:09

Well, you know, and rational is the key there, mark, because I'm sorry, when people are going through a divorce, oftentimes they're not Exactly.

Peter Roussos: 22:18

Yeah, all the more reason to have another set of eyes on this.

Mark Hill: 22:25

I actually can support you alone, whose basically only interest is looking out for your interest.

Shawn Weber: 22:34

Yeah, somebody's got your back. So then you know we probably ought to talk a little bit about how do you, as the client, make sure that you're maintaining a balance between making sure you have a legal advocate but that you're also kind of keeping in the spirit of mediation and cooperation and mutual settlement. How do you balance this with the attorney that you select?

Mark Hill: 22:58

You keep going back to what you agreed at the start of the mediation were your goals and your aspirations for the process, what you call the big rocks when you do your mediation Right, what we call the sort of the goals and aspirations, which is basically I want to have a relationship with my spouse that benefits our children. I want to be financially secure. I want to make sure we both have a comfortable living situation. Whatever you came up with, that needs to be not only integrated into the mediation process but be on the radar of your consulting attorney so that they can filter what you're doing through those goals and aspirations.

Shawn Weber: 23:46

That's pretty good.

Peter Roussos: 23:48

In the collaborative work that we have all done together. The mission statement Exactly that very first at time takeaway meeting. What's the mission statement for this process and for these clients?

Mark Hill: 24:04

Yeah, Reminding them of that. Throughout the process the emotions come up. Explain to me, Ms Client, how this benefits the future relationship with your husband that you want to have for your children's benefit. That usually stops them in their tracks.

Shawn Weber: 24:23

And remembering that you're hiring an attorney and that means the attorney works for you. So if it is your high level governing value or your mission statement to be respectful and to seek cooperation and you don't want to litigate, you instruct your attorney that that's what you're expecting. And just because your attorney says you have to do something doesn't mean you will because they're not in charge of you. You are in charge. You just need to get information from the attorney. And then, mark, we've experienced and I know you have two cases where the case would not have settled had it not been the fact that we had good, mediation-friendly attorneys involved.

Mark Hill: 25:17

Absolutely. But there's a flip side to that. When clients come to us when they already have an attorney in place who is not mediation-friendly or, candidly, not really qualified in family law yeah, just a terrible attorney.

Mark Hill: 25:33

One of the things they do beyond personal injury and contracts and whatever comes through the door. Basically, that can be very challenging because it puts us in a situation where the mediation can be really undermined by the position of an existing attorney who's telling the client over in one ear all the time. I can do better for you. You deserve this, your entitled to. This is the thing we always get.

Shawn Weber: 26:05

One real thumb. When you go to meet with an attorney and you feel you're adrenaline going up instead of down, that attorney is manipulating you. That attorney is doing retainer talk and trying to get you hot to trot so you're going to go to war.

Mark Hill: 26:24

A very famous person in business was a lady called Pauline Tesla, who wrote the book on collaborative law, basically 30 years ago, pauline, in a very first job, tells the story of a partner in this family law firm who specialized in jilted women. Pauline and his comment was when they were complaining about the affairs that their husband were having, was this? Well then, we will rip out his lying heart. So if you hear that kind of comment, it may not be an appropriate attorney for a mediation process.

Shawn Weber: 27:07

Yeah, I mean. Look at their market. If all their marketing is attorneys scowling at a camera or they have imagery of combat in their marketing materials, probably not a good mediation friendly attorney. If they're immediately talking about how unjustly you're being treated and we need to file a motion at court tomorrow, that's a person to be careful about you know it's one thing for them to say so go ahead, Mark.

Mark Hill: 27:38

Well, and you need to be careful, because mediation has become such a big thing and is taking a larger share of the market in the last 20 years at least here in Southern California. A lot of attorneys realize they have to at least play lip service to it on their website. So they'll say that they do mediation or that they're mediation friendly, but my experience is not. Everyone is Well along those lines, guys.

Peter Roussos: 28:06

What are the credentials and the training that you think is essential for people to be not just qualified mediators but mediation friendly attorneys?

Shawn Weber: 28:19

In the family law context. In the state of California at least. You want to make sure they're a certified specialist in family law. Okay, if you're not in California, you just want to make sure that's all they do. All day is family law. They're not dabblers. Sometimes you go to the phone book. Oh gosh, do people go to phone books anymore? You?

Shawn Weber: 28:35

go to their website and you see this list. And they'll do criminal law. Trust in the states. They'll do your will. They'll do a bankruptcy, they'll be personal injury claims, they'll do unlawful detainers and the very bottom it'll say divorce. That's one to avoid because they're dabbler and they're not going to have the expertise of someone who does only does family law. You want to make sure they're family law specialists. And then I would ask do you guys offer, do you offer, out-of-court settlement options? What kind of out-of-court settlement options do you offer? And sometimes they'll say, oh yeah, we're collaborative. And then you're like well, are you trained in collaborative practice?

Mark Hill: 29:18

Right and have you done a 40-hour mediation training? Have you?

Shawn Weber: 29:21

been trained in mediation. What knowledge do you have of me? How many cases do you do that? Never go to court, but only mediate. Just ask them these questions and sometimes they will kind of maneuver around and say they're really collaborative, they don't need a mediator, they negotiate all their cases. Those are the ones to be careful about, because they don't understand.

Mark Hill: 29:44

93% of my cases end up in settlement.

Shawn Weber: 29:48

Yeah, most litigated cases after a really miserable three years will end up in a settlement.

Mark Hill: 29:53

Exactly. Sometimes on the courtroom steps on the back of a new, usually when your 401k has been drained to pay their fees.

Shawn Weber: 30:02

Just remember this if they have a giant billboard on the interstate, somehow they're paying for that giant billboard on the interstate, and it's with their client's money. It tells me they need the giant billboard, because nobody's referring to them either.

Mark Hill: 30:20

And what message are they sending on the giant billboard?

Shawn Weber: 30:24

Oh yeah, if it's a gross message, believe it. Also, maya Angelou said that if someone shows you who they are, believe them. So somebody's going to go to war warfare analogies going to go fight. They're not going to help you find peace.

Mark Hill: 30:44

But I want to return to a more positive approach. I mean, we've talked a lot about what not to do and the wrong kind of attorneys. There are excellent qualified attorneys out there who, for a very reasonable cost, will protect your interests. Make sure you understand your rights and your obligations under what you're going to be signing, so there's no surprises down the road, and it's unwise in most cases not to have that available to you as you go through the process. If it's available and on call throughout the process, it's better off than trying to find someone right at the end. Oh, I have an agreement, now I need to go find an attorney. And then the attorney looks at the agreement and said well, I wouldn't have done it that way and why did you choose this? And just having someone along for the ride is a real benefit, in my opinion.

Shawn Weber: 31:40

I really appreciate it because it improves my work as a mediator. I've never had a situation where good attorneys looked at MSA and they couldn't make it a little better, Because they're looking at it from a different perspective than I am. I'm looking at it from the point of view of the neutral. They're looking at it from the perspective of their clients. That's important. You got to have all three to really have an effective agreement.

Peter Roussos: 32:01

Well, from a process standpoint, Sean, I'm curious how that interaction or the draft of a marital settlement agreement that you arrive at that then goes to the consulting attorneys. Talk, if you would, about the back and forth. It's to me it seems like a house bill and a Senate bill, how those come together to be signed into law. So how?

Mark Hill: 32:29

does that Hopefully not that, hopefully not that. Nice try analogy counselor.

Shawn Weber: 32:35

Yeah, congress could certainly use the services of a welfare agreement.

Shawn Weber: 32:41

Number one, I think we'd get a lot more done. But number two, yeah, I mean that does happen. And this goes to the argument of why it might be good sometimes to have the attorney in the room, because a lot of times what happens is you have this agreement that it's on the razor's edge balance of interest between the parties and all the attorney knows, when they see it, what's on the four corners of the document. They don't know all the maneuverings and the minutiae and the negotiation. They're carefully worded phrases that we're putting here to get to an agreement and then they want to- and the motivations from the client standpoint that you've got, yeah, why are we?

Mark Hill: 33:24

doing it this way.

Shawn Weber: 33:25

The good attorney in that situation will just call me on the phone hey, Sean, why did you agree? Why did they agree to this? Yeah, and I can usually tell them well, because you know that was a carefully worded negotiation, where she gave up this in order for her to get more of that, and he gave up that to get something else over here. You know, there's this very there's this balance here, and when I explain to them that there is that balance and a lot of times it'll make sense to them it'll kind of back off. A lot of times. What I'll get, though, more often than not, is I'll get an email or a letter that says please change all these different things, and then I'll get an email and a letter from the other attorney that says please change all these things. And sometimes they don't reconcile, and sometimes the two attorneys will actually talk to each other and reconcile it, but more often than not, what happens is I need to do some reconciliation and we might have a review session where we sit together with the document. Sometimes we sit together with the document and with the attorneys and reconcile the two documents with what I call a review session, and usually that goes well.

Shawn Weber: 34:37

I've only had a few cases where it just absolutely blew up over an attorney's suggestion. Those have happened, but more often than not we can reconcile it in a review session Very complex cases, Pete. What I'll do is I'll write, I'll have a table, and one column in the table will say husbands revisions. Another column will say wife's revisions. Another column will say what did they agree to? And sometimes it just requires just mapping it all out so people can see it. That's a good point I got to say too. We said some things about attorneys here, about the bad apples, but most of the attorneys that do family law are just really good people.

Shawn Weber: 35:34

That's why they got into family law, Because they want to help families and they're actually really good people in this industry. My brother was talking about his own divorce and a good relationship he had with his attorney and how he just felt like he was just a really good person. Not only was he a competent attorney, but he was the kind of guy he'd love to go have a drink with him, go play ball with him or something, because this was just a steel or Yiddish phrase. This is a mensch and most family law attorneys are in that category. There's probably 10% that aren't.

Mark Hill: 36:16

Yeah, and I agree with you that people come into it with the approach of wanting to help people. I also find that the brightest and the best move towards non-court based solutions, because they feel they don't help people so much as they could do if they're going through the court process.

Shawn Weber: 36:39

I can't tell you how many attorneys have come to me personally and it said I can't do this anymore. What do I need to do to start moving towards mediation, Exactly Because I'm doing more harm than good? What can I do to help?

Mark Hill: 36:50

people do it. I don't feel I'm helping families and that's why I came into this. That's a story I tell of a lady who's since passed away. Back years ago, when I was doing trainings in collaborative, we used to send out flyers I'm probably going back to the 90s or early 2000s and she came to the training and she got the qualification and she came to me at the end of it and said you saved my career. I said what?

Mark Hill: 37:21

She said, I got my greatest victory just before Christmas, where we won everything I got the kids, I got the house, I got the support and I was elated. This was my greatest family law victory. I looked across at the other client, his hands in face, tears streaming down his face. I look at my client thinking she'll be smiling. No, tears streaming down her face too and I thought my God, I haven't helped people. She said about a week later, your flyer came and it gave me a lifeline and that's all I want to do now. So think about that.

Shawn Weber: 38:04

Yeah. So takeaways hire an attorney when you're mediating or when you're anything you're doing in a divorce. If you're doing it yourself, if you're mediating, if you're using a collaborative model, have an attorney. Make sure it's a qualified attorney who understands settlement and understands what and is willing to be subservient to your goals, not the other way around. And don't think that you're wasting money when you're paying for good legal advice, because it will save you a lot in the long run.

Mark Hill: 38:40

And if you give you a piece of mind that this is not something that's going to raise its ugly head years down the road.

Shawn Weber: 38:46

Oh yeah, like my friend with the insurance thing, yeah, so this is what we hope is part one in a series. So this is the. We're talking about why it's important to have an attorney during a mediation. Next time we're going to talk about why it would be important to have a financial expert participate in your mediation and why that can be helpful. And then the following podcast will be about why it's smart to have mental health professionals involved in your case.

Shawn Weber: 39:17

And each of these folks bring so much to the table and it kind of goes a lot to what our mission is for the three wise men of divorce. You know we're approaching divorce from the three angles of the legal, the financial and the emotional, and we believe at our core that when you have all three aligned, that that is a good outcome. If you only have one of them, or two of them, and you're missing a stool, a leg of the stool, then it's not as good of an outcome as it could be. So tune in next time, okay? So, mark, if they wanted to get that financial leg of the stool, what should they do?

Mark Hill: 39:59

Look at my website which is Pacific Divorce Management. The website address is pacdivorcecom P-A-C-D-I-V-O-R-C-E all one word dot com, and we have our contact phone numbers, our contact sheet to directly get through to us, and we'd be delighted to speak with you.

Shawn Weber: 40:21

And Pete, if they needed to get the emotional piece figured out, what would they need to do with you?

Peter Roussos: 40:28

So I can go to my website, which is peterrusoscom P-E-T-E-R-R-O-U-S-S-O-S dot com and can you email me from the contact me page there or email me directly at peterrusoscom.

Shawn Weber: 40:45

And for your legal needs in your divorce, and especially if you're wanting to mediate your divorce or find a no court settlement, you can go to WeberDisputeResolutioncom. That's Weber, like the drill dispute, like we had a fight in resolution, like we solved it, dot com, all one word and we'll match you with a professional that can help you solve your case. Okay, guys, well, the audience did it again. They spent a good amount of time with us, but I hope it was helpful. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe, leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation. Thank you.