Using a Financial Specialist to Unpack Your Divorce Mediation

Discover how to navigate the complexities of divorce with financial savvy and emotional intelligence as we chat with financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA, therapist Pete Roussos, MFT, and attorney Shawn Weber. This revealing conversation is packed with expert advice on the crucial role of financial specialists during divorce mediation. You'll gain an understanding of the emotional weight of assets, how to balance power dynamics, and the subtleties of informed decision-making. Our guests strip back the layers of financial negotiations, providing a clear path to a fair settlement that respects both the past and future financial health of those involved.

We also dissect the utility and foresight offered by prenuptial agreements, and why financial planning should be an essential part of marital discussions, with or without the prospect of separation. Mark, Pete, and Shawn debunk the common myths surrounding the involvement of financial experts, emphasizing their potential to simplify and streamline the process, despite initial concerns about cost and complexity. If you're facing the challenges of uncoupling, or simply want to fortify your marital financial planning, this episode is an invaluable guide to protecting your assets and peace of mind.

The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.

© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.

Transcript

Pete Roussos, MFT: 0:01

Well, just one suggestion, and this is not an area of expertise for me, but I think Sean and I so respect and appreciate the way you technically manage these podcasts. One suggestion I have is, if you're doing search engine optimization for this episode, you don't use the words anal probe.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 0:24

Welcome to the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, marriage and family therapist Pete Rousos and attorney Sean Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co-parenting and the difficult decisions real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you are looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 60 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co-parenting. Okay so, mark, you and I were talking offline about a movie with Jack Nicholson and Kathleen Turner. What was it called? Again, prixie's Honor.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 1:20

I always quote it when it comes to how important is money in divorce. The story of the movie is that Kathleen Turner and Jack Nicholson are both hit men or hit people for rival mob organizations. Somewhere during the transactions a million dollars which was a lot of money back in the 18s, probably when this movie was made has gone missing in a briefcase. At one point Jack Nicholson says to Kathleen Turner no, no, no, you don't understand. The Prixies really love their money. They love their money more than their children and they really love their children. That's how money is in divorce is that people love their children, but they also love their money. It's a really important piece of the pie.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 2:15

The question becomes how do you handle that? What's the most appropriate way to do it? Many clients say well, I've got a CPA and I've got a financial advisor, they can do that for us. My response to that is they don't have the training. Since I was a financial advisor and had my own wealth management firm for many, many years, I know what that role is. I know it's very different than the role that a financial neutral takes in a divorce case. The education is different and the knowledge required is totally different. I would say that in most cases, since this is probably going to be the largest financial transaction of a client's lifetime, it would be prudent to have somebody who's really experienced in doing this work, especially if you're going to mediate it and you are trying to stay out of rival experts in every field.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 3:16

Last time we talked about why it's important to have an attorney as part of your mediation, which naturally makes plenty of sense. I think attorneys are absolutely essential. I speak as an attorney you wouldn't, wouldn't you? But I think this part, too, is about why it's important to have a financial specialist as part of your divorce mediation. I think for a lot of cases, it's every bit as important as the attorney having the financial specialist involved in your case, because there are things that you might not think about if you didn't have the right professional on the case.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 4:03

Yeah, and very often there's an imbalance of power because of this imbalance of knowledge around the money.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 4:10

Right, you said that before you have the moneyed spouse and the non-moneyed spouse. Sometimes I'll call the financially curious spouse versus the not so curious.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 4:20

Yeah, and the reality is that, in order to be a participant in this process, the concept of informed consent comes up, which means that you could agree to anything in a mediation process, as long as you understand what you're doing and what might happen under other circumstances.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 4:40

I've even had people are like well, I don't care about the money, I just care about the children. And then you start talking about the children and meeting their needs and then you realize that actually they have to care about the money because we've got to figure out how to make sure the kids are supported.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 4:56

So my role is essentially to first of all quantify the marital estate and the assets and debts that both people have and the income and expenses that they are going to be dealing with. Once we've quantified it, we do the court forms. Sean, most lawyers don't go to law school because they love arithmetic. I certainly did not. They tend to like words and concepts is what drives people to law school. What we can do is usually more cheaply and candidly, more accurately the most attorneys is create the necessary what are called disclosure forms that have to occur at least once in the divorce. So we quantify the estate, we do those forms and then we evaluate it, we take a look at it and we go.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 5:48

What's going to be challenging here? Has there been commingling of assets that were in existence before marriage? Has there been a long time since the data separation with the courts? Long time since the data separation with contributions, say, for example, going to retirement accounts, those kinds of things that we are aware of, that clients perhaps would not think of as important issues, but they can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then we educate when necessary. Back to what I was saying before about making sure both parties can be participants at the table so that they can have that informed consent, so when they make an agreement they know what they're doing. And also, sean, you and I are often at the table together facilitating this process. So I think, if that is, the four step stage is quantify, evaluate, educate and facilitate.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 6:48

You know, I certainly. My sense is that most when people go into a divorce process, the professionals that they're most likely to encounter first as an attorney. So, sean, how do you say more, if you would, about how you talk to people about why it really is in their best interest to have additional professionals to work with, to bring in a financial specialist, and how do you talk with them about the concerns that they have about the cost of a process and bringing additional professionals in?

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 7:24

Well, I mean, the first thing is number one. I kind of do a little mini evaluation of my own. If it's something I feel comfortable dealing with, I'll deal with it. You know, and that's a very low bar, it's a very low threshold. You know, some cases really are that simple. They just have a house and they have a couple of bank accounts and maybe an IRA. You know, some cases are like that, they're that simple. But there is a level of complexity where it becomes very clear to me that a financial specialist is essential, not just it would be nice, but it would be essential.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 8:00

Mark is well to you both. So what is that? I'm thinking of people that are thinking about divorce. Can you describe what that threshold is, the specifics of it? What are the things? If you will, the red flags, if you will that suggest to you, they really need to bring a financial specialist in.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 8:23

For me. I look at, you know, the net worth. I also look at just the complexity of the assets. If they have multiple retirement accounts, not just one or two, if they have deferred compensation, if they have RSUs or stock options. If there's a business, you know all of these things can kind of work together. I mean, do they have multiple stock accounts and multiple positions?

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 8:58

You know, then it quickly gets beyond what I should be helping people with. And if it requires expertise to really understand it, then you should hire the right expert for it. And I always tell my clients when they complain about the cost level. You know it's the three R's. You want to get the right person to do the right work for the right price. So you don't want to pay my attorney rate to analyze someone's stock options. That would be foolish, you know.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 9:30

And the other piece is when there's some disparity in knowledge. That's a really big red flag for me where I'll want someone, like a mark, to come in and help kind of level the playing field between the moneyed spouse and the non-moneyed spouse. And oftentimes you'll have the moneyed spouse say well, I understand all of this stuff, I handle this, you know, I'm a financial advisor myself. I don't need to hire a certified divorce financial analyst to do this, so I could just do it myself, and Mark taught me this years ago. And you say to the person well, you're at a real disadvantage, aren't you? What do you mean? Well, your spouse wouldn't know a good deal if it bit her in the leg, bit him in the leg, because they just there's no way they can know, and usually you know you'd think that would offend the other person. They're nodding their heads, that's right, I wouldn't know.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 10:21

And often the person that is the moneyed spouse will say offline yeah, I've been trying to get him or her engaged for the last 20 years and that hasn't worked. So they will often admit that and there's nothing unhealthy about that. There's nothing unhealthy about, you know, when you have a marriage, of the division of labor I mean it's kind of one of the benefits of being married, frankly but nobody signs a contract. When they get back from the honeymoon says you're going to do the yard and I'm going to do the cooking and I'll take care of the kids and you earn the money. But that's how things evolve over time and so that creates that imbalance of power that I alluded to earlier that we really need to try to dissipate. Before you get into substantive conversations and start, you know deciding what goes where and who gets what.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 11:18

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a big piece of it, and just letting people know that this isn't wasting money, this is saving you money in the long run. Yeah, because you know, especially when you're talking about larger amounts of money, if you know a little swing in your analysis of just a few percentage points could be big money, yeah, and so why take the chance? Go ahead and hire somebody that can be on your team, who can help you with that analysis.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 11:55

And the other thing I'll say is that when a marriage breaks down, I think it's almost universal that there's been a breakdown in trust at some point, and so you may have somebody who's very knowledgeable, who's ready to come in with their spreadsheets and their analysis, and it may be totally kosher and it might be correct in every regard. However, is the other person going to believe it? If there has been a breakdown of trust on other issues? I've seen cases where there's been impidelity and the response is well, if he, she, lied about that, they must have lied about everything else. So I can't trust them. So having a third party to say you know what, it is okay and I can tell you that it's okay, often gives comfort and allows the process to move forward.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 12:45

You know I'm thinking of Mark in terms of what you're just describing. You know you're talking about good faith, dynamics and something that we've touched on before in the context of mediation or in terms of collaborative process. It really is based foundationally on an expectation of good faith, on an expectation of transparency, and I think that would be just a useful thing for us to really reiterate the absolute importance of that to these processes that we're talking about.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 13:18

I couldn't agree more. And the flip side of that is it only takes one violation of that in order to destroy the process. You know, and I've seen that happen. It's rare but you know, with some it's what I used to call the smartest guy in the room, and sometimes it's the smartest gal in the room.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 13:41

But there are people who come into the process thinking they're going to be smarter than all of the professionals in there and it's my job, from a financial standpoint, to disavow them of that concept very quickly, because if someone's coming in thinking they can manipulate the process, I want to terminate that process quickly. Or you know, I'll have a come to Jesus meeting and says hey, you're at risk of that if you don't. You know, if you do this again sort of thing and sometimes it's not just somebody providing wrong information Somebody's dragging their feet can have the same impact and I'm failing to provide things and dragging it out. Eventually the other spouse goes to hell with this. I need some teeth and therefore I'm going to litigate this and then you're off to the races and we're act.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 14:30

Mm, hmm, mm hmm.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 14:33

Well, one of the things I also like about with having a financial specialist is those cases where the parties just don't seem to have time to do their disclosures. You know, and it's been months and months and months, I can't get them to move forward on doing the mandatory disclosures. You know, at least in California, there's the income expense declaration that's mandatory and a schedule of assets and debts. They have to provide two years of tax returns, statements of material facts and information and exchange that and that usually in a mediation, ends up being the most annoying part of the process.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 15:08

Everybody hates filling out forms.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 15:11

Me included right.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 15:12

Yeah, I get it, but if you don't do it, you know this is one of my biggest frustrations is I have two clients, right, I have a husband and a wife, okay, and both of those clients have to do a certain amount of work. One of them is very diligent, gets it all done. The other one doesn't. They're busy, they're traveling, they've got stuff going on with the family, whatever They've got their excuses, and the months go by and eventually they provide us with everything.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 15:47

However, all the dates on the statements from the other stuff are now aged out. It has to be what 60, 90 days you know it's supposed to be on those forms the statements must be within. So if someone doesn't respond, that can be very disruptive because A I've got to charge again to update all the numbers Not a huge amount, but it's going to have a cost. There's also a time, and then the person that did it in an appropriate and timely fashion is now being penalized and having to do it again, which again can be very disruptive to the process and can really send it off the rails.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 16:30

So you need a financial advisor, folks, if you have. Now, the only cases really are the ones that are simple, like Sean indicated before, where they don't have much on the way of assets. I'll say something else Short-term marriages too, very short-term marriages, perhaps, if we're not necessary, and what I call the college divorce, where you get the dog and I'll take the books and have a nice life, that kind of stuff that I think is a rarity coming to us, because a lot of those people just go pro, pro and they just take care of themselves and we don't even see them.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 17:11

Well, what is it, Mark, about short-term marriage?

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 17:15

Well, in a short-term marriage, if it's short enough. I don't want to step on your shoes, sean, but support is not an issue.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 17:25

If it's very, very short-term. Also, they haven't had perhaps the time to accumulate assets during the marriage that need to be distributed. You've got a couple of years of marriage. Well, do they care that they've both been contributing to 401Ks? Probably not, unless there's a huge disparity, if there's not a huge disparity in income. Those are very simple cases.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 17:50

But the longer a marriage goes, the more complex it becomes and the more challenging it becomes, because so many times we have cases where one or both of the parties own real property before the marriage. The houses were sold during the marriage and then they bought a house together. So we need to do what's called a more Marsden tracing. That says how much of the original funds that went into the purchase of that property during marriage came from each one of them and how do they get credit for that. The longer and then the longer a marriage is where there are retirement accounts that were brought in, then they continue to contribute to during the marriage for 20 years.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 18:34

How do we work out? What was the premarital share of that and do they care? But if you can't quantify it, you can't decide if you care or not. I always almost to the point of being annoying in these cases, I want a number. Once we've got a number, then we can talk about it. But often in these cases it's well, I deserve this and I should get that and so and so. Well, what does that mean? What does this mean? Why put a number on it and then we can talk about it and decide if the other side cares.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 19:10

I was thinking about the objections I received from clients about oh, I don't want to pay for a Mark Hill, I don't want to pay for a financial specialist, I don't want to do this. I think that one of the objections would be added cost. They think it costs too much. The other would be that they think it makes it too complex. And the third is they're fearful that when they think of a financial person, they think of forensics and they think they're going to be undergoing an anal probe. Now, and I can assure you Mark does not want to do an anal probe.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 19:41

I do not. And also my background is as a financial planner. A financial planner's focus is more on the future. I mean, we've got to know where you stand today. But we're not accountants forensic accountants always looking backwards, we're looking forwards. Now we can do pretty good tracing in my office, but there have been a couple of occasions during my career where I've actually suggested we hire a forensic accountant to go do the tracing because candidly, I admitted it was beyond my pay grade.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 20:14

Yeah, I mean, if you need a business appraisal, you have to hire somebody to do specialty work there.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 20:24

But as far as cost is concerned, it goes back to that. It's kind of economies of scale. You're paying the right person to do the right work, so actually in my opinion it reduces the fees and gives you a better product. Then, when you're talking about complexity, it does not increase the complexity, it actually simplifies. Yeah, If you have complexity already a good financial specialist can take challenging subjects and can reduce it to a form that's digestible so that you can then make decisions Then it's not overly intrusive. What would be overly intrusive is if you went to court and then we hired forensic accountants and then there were depositions and people were subpoenaing your employer.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 21:15

That is intrusive and you have two attorneys doing all these numbers and then spending months and thousands of dollars arguing over what the pie is.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 21:24

But if we could keep it within the mediation context. The financial specialist falls under the mediation confidentiality, which means it's more private, it's more mutual, the information is there and people can make decisions.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 21:47

We're talking about the role of the financial specialist in a divorce process, a divorce mediation. I'm curious, Mark, do you also get involved? Is there a role that you have for couples that are looking to marry and are wanting to put together a prenup? Was there a discussion you get involved in?

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 22:09

Yes, it's fairly rare People quite honestly, they probably have had a divorce before to consider it. Because people go in with rose-coloured glasses, shall we say, to most relationships and don't think about it until things turn sour. But if you've been through divorce or you've had a family member or your parents went through it, people are much more. Or if there's a huge disparity in the wealth, where you have an extremely wealthy person marrying somebody who has less funds, that's not uncommon to have that done.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 22:50

I've had people say, oh, I don't want to do that, it would break the romance. Well, yeah, but wouldn't you rather have the conversation when you're getting along than when you're wanting to get vengeance against each other or they're perceived crimes during the marriage? I would say, yes, but it's a rarity. But when it comes through the door, I can certainly help on it because first of all, I can help explain the rules, how this works, and I'm commingling when you put your funds in with somebody else's funds, somebody else being your spouse, does that change the character of your property? There's rules around that and you need to understand them in order to not have surprises down the road. I've had many people say, oh, if only I'd known I wouldn't have done that.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 23:46

To be clear, the level of disclosure that's required for a prenuptial agreement is the same as what's required for a divorce. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. If you don't disclose them, if you get something wrong and somebody relies on that, then the prenuptial agreement could be worthless. So having a financial person help you put the disclosures together is a really good piece of insurance.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 24:10

And then also.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 24:11

I'm sorry, mark, go ahead.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 24:12

What I was going to say. It sets the relationship off on the right footing. People go into marriages, into relationships, with assumptions we seldom discuss with the other person. Oh really, you expect me to work after we get married? Oh, I didn't know that, or what. You're going to retire in three years. You didn't tell me that, those kind of things. It's helpful to have those conversations before, as I say, when you're getting along.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 24:49

Well, and I always tell people you have a prenup already written, whether or not you actually sign one. Yeah, if you don't make your own prenup, then you have a prenup that was written in Sacramento by the legislature, you know, or whatever state you're in. Yeah, but you know, thinking about these things beforehand, and I think the thing that happens that maybe you've seen this mark is Is when people are thinking about getting married, all they're thinking about is picking out China and where am I registered and what's the wedding gonna be like, and they don't want to have to think about these things. Yes, yeah, but they really should. And and take the time to do it right. Don't just do a half-butted Disclosure. Make sure it's a complete and thorough disclosure. You want to make sure that you're gonna spend the money and time on a prenuptial agreement, that it's something that'll be useful to you enforceable yeah and enforceable.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 25:38

Yeah, I mean and and and, and you know you and I have had these conversations many times about prenups. You know we've seen good, the good, the bad and the indifferent, haven't we man? We've seen ones that, you know, because of change of circumstances, may not be valid. You know, we've seen ones where one of the parties, over a 20-year marriage, just does incredibly well, has a huge amount of money, and the other one Didn't do so well, you know, because of inheritance or because of some separate business interest or something like that. And now there's a real imbalance there. And what's the term? The difference between the, the income or the? Well, yeah, Unconscionable.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 26:28

So it's so in California and it may be different in different states, but in California the Conscionability of a spousal support waiver, hmm, it is determined at the time of enforcement, not at the time of signature. So what I mean by a contract, a defense to a contract, is a contract will not be informed if it's determined to be unconscionable. I mean it's so awful that it shocks the senses. And We've had cases and in fact I got one now where when they got married they had similar incomes Maybe they had nothing and then during the marriage one of them developed a career and the other one Became a stay-at-home parent or something like that, and there's a huge disparity in incomes.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 27:14

At the time of divorce it's a very good chance that that spousal support obligation will not. Your spouse support waiver Would not be upheld because it would be determined to be unconscionable by a court. So there's all kinds of things to think about with a prenuptial agreement, and having a financial person there to help is Is very important. I also think Not just prenuptial agreements but, mark, I've seen you help people that are like if they're not sure they want to get divorced.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 27:41

Yeah.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 27:43

Tramony, as I call it.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 27:44

Yeah, they committed.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 27:46

Money in matrimony.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 27:49

Yeah, you see, you have a couple, they've committed matrimony, they got married, yeah, and, and they've got, they've got money issues. You know, every couple has a kryptonite. I always say and for some people the kryptonite is just the money yeah, and so you know, if you're, I'll do marital mediation, where you actually meet with folks and talk to them about whether there's something here to save. Yeah, and they agree to continue the marriage, and what would that look like? Well, having a Financial specialist involved there can be very useful because, number one, you can see what would the case look like if you were to get divorced. What would your finances possibly be? And B, if money is the kryptonite, maybe there's something that a financial planner can do to help you solve that for that kryptonite problem.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 28:37

Yeah, and, and you know, I think you and I had a case a couple years back where the couple really wanted to stay married and Husband had a very good career, a huge stock options wife just wanted some. She was a free spirit wife, just wanted some money in her name and they came to us for that, you know, basically to help them negotiate something that would meet both of their needs and keep them married.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 29:07

And it is a case like that, it sounds like may or may not result in a post-nuptial agreement.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 29:14

You know, I don't know that they ever signed the agreement. We did it for them and I think they just went to sleep and went away and they are hopefully having happily ever after. I think that's what happened, Mark, with that note.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 29:27

Yeah, yeah, that does happen. Or it could be there's a post-nuptial agreement that gets executed, or they actually decide to get divorced. Or maybe they don't want to get divorced. They get a legal separation, which is basically, I always say, it's exactly like a divorce, except you're still married.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 29:41

Yeah, and there may be religious grounds for that yeah. When people just think it's not appropriate to divorce yeah.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 29:49

So, yeah, their own morality doesn't allow for the divorce, but they know they need to do something, and sometimes it's just the finances are the issue. Maybe they just have different money styles he likes to play fast and lose on the stock market and she's more conservative. We've seen all kinds of stuff like that.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 30:08

That's a fact in very common. It's very rare that remember I spent 30-odd years as a financial advisor managing people's money back when I had the wealth management firm and it's very rare that both of a couple are on the same page in terms of risk profile. Frankly, they usually. We used to get people to fill out a risk profile and say you know, in the event, the market does this, this is what this account would do, this is what this account would do on the upside and the downside, and it's very rare that they both checked the same box.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 30:40

Usually one is more conservative than the other, and it's not always predictable as to which one it might be the moneyed spouse or the un-moneyed spouse. You know it's yeah. Well, money in marriage is a journey, folks, and most people set off almost setting themselves up for failure by failing to talk about it and discuss it because they don't want conflict, you know? Oh, money is always a problem. I remember my mom and dad used to fight about it all the time. I don't want to bring it up, you know, and I get it. I understand that. You know we all not all, but most people avoid conflict if possible, and the problem with this is that conflicts in marriage, in my experience, are unavoidable and therefore, how do you handle them is the issue, and education and understanding the issues make it easier to have a conversation that doesn't go sideways.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 31:45

Well, you know there's also this thing that happens in divorce. You know we like to think that people are rational about their money. You know we think of the invisible hand of the market moving people towards rational choices, but really we make our money decisions based on an emotional need most of the time, wouldn't you agree, mark?

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 32:07

I once saw a statistic that people spend three times as much time deciding which kitchen appliances to buy than they do in making their financial investment decisions. You know really, and that was you know, some Harvard study or something you know, and think about it.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 32:25

I believe that. I mean, if people, if people were purely rational when it came to buying a car, why would you have all these commercials on about the feelings that you have when you buy your vehicle? You know? And so that happens in divorce. People get irrational. They may apply a value to something that isn't appropriate, yeah, and because of an emotional need. And so having the financial specialist in there who's just there looking at the math, I mean, there's nothing more neutral than math.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 33:05

I always say I can't make the numbers do any different folks. They are what they are.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 33:11

But that kind of opens the door for our next week's conversation, which is going to be about why it would be important to have a mental health professional involved in your divorce case, because people aren't rational when it comes to making choices, even if we think we are.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 33:27

Well, I think that there's also still this expectation that I think, mark, what you were saying about people being conflict avoidant, I agree with that but there's also this idea that, you know, marriage just, it just should be this organic process that happens naturally and it'll fall into place and you know the way that I talk to people about it is well, when else in life do the things that are really, really important? When else do they go? Well, if you just leave it all up to chance, you know how many businesses are successful without a business plan, for example, where roles and responsibilities aren't defined? And then and money, you know, is one of the big four issues that couples have tension and conflict about.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 34:19

What is the thought like the imagining children and sex, two of them.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 34:24

In-laws. In-laws.

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 34:26

In-laws.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 34:26

Yeah, parenting and sex.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 34:28

Yeah, or as I call them sometimes, the outlaws yes, yeah, oh, yeah, well, guys, we did it again.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 34:38

Well, just one suggestion, and this is not an area of expertise for me, but I think Sean and I so respect and appreciate the way you technically manage these podcasts. One suggestion I have is, if you're doing search engine optimization for this episode, you don't use the words anal probe. I'm very glad.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 35:02

You know, who knows what will come out of it.

Pete Roussos, MFT: 35:04

It was my responsibility to do that, that we're not going to focus on it.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 35:10

Thank you Well, on that note, on that happy note, I always want to finish my podcast with the words anal probe. So, mark, yes, if people did want a financial anal probe if people need financial help and their divorce. What should they do?

Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA: 35:39

They should go to my company website. It's Pacific Divorce Management. It's the name of the company. The website is address is packdivorcecom. P-a-c-d-i-b-o-r-c-e. There's a lot of information about the company, about what we do, and also a contact form if you'd like to reach out and have a conversation as to how we might help you.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 36:02

Okay and Pete, if people need to talk to a mental health professional about their divorce process, what should they do?

Pete Roussos, MFT: 36:08

So you could reach me through my website, which is peterrusoscom, and this podcast is very focused on the dynamics of divorce, but I think of myself as, first and foremost, as a couples therapist, and so if people are struggling in their marriage and they would like help with that, please take a look at my website. It'll give you a sense of how I work and you can contact me from the contact me page on my website.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 36:38

Okay, and for me, if you need help with the legal aspects of your divorce or if you have any dispute that you need help with resolving, webberdisputeresolutioncom is the website that's Weber with 1B, like the grill dispute, like we had a fight in resolution, like we solved it. Webberdisputeresolutioncom and you can set up for a free 15-minute meet and greet consultation and we can talk about how we can match you with the right process to resolve whatever dispute you might have. Okay, guys, well, we'll do next time. We will talk about how to use a mental health professional as part of your mediation process.

Shawn Weber, CLS-F: 37:24

Thanks for listening to another episode of the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe, leave us a review and share with us With others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation. Thank you.