Discover the transformative power of mental health support in the realm of divorce with the Three Wisemen of Divorce. This episode delves into the emotional complexities of separation and the pivotal role therapists play in steering individuals towards a collaborative divorce. We unpack the stark contrasts between marital therapy, coaching and mediation support, shining a light on how emotional intelligence and self-management can dramatically alter the course of a divorce for the better. This journey isn't just about the end of a partnership; it's an invitation to understand the importance of professional guidance in fostering healthy communication and mutual respect during what can be one of life's most challenging transitions.
Navigating the stormy seas of divorce can leave many adrift, but with the help of mental health professionals, couples can find their way to calmer waters. The Three Wisemen of Divorce offer insights on how incorporating therapists into the divorce process can lead to healthier, more strategic outcomes, particularly when children and co-parenting arrangements are involved. We explore the signs that indicate a need for professional help and discuss the concept of 'the good divorce', aiming to transform the post-divorce family dynamic into one focused on the collective well-being. This conversation is a beacon of hope, illustrating that even amidst the heartache of separation, there's an opportunity to emerge stronger and more connected as co-parents.
Concluding our episode, we confront the nuanced art of co-parenting and the strategic navigation of divorce mediation. The invaluable perspective of a mental health professional is not to be underestimated, even in the most amicable of separations. The Three Wisemen of Divorce share practical advice on personal growth, self-sufficiency, and the development of new communication skills that are essential in post-divorce life. By embracing these strategies, individuals are empowered to manage their new dynamics with poise and collaboration, always with the best interests of their children at heart. Join us for this profound exploration, and let us guide you toward a future of resilience and cooperation in the face of change.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
Discover the transformative power of mental health support in the realm of divorce with the Three Wisemen of Divorce. This episode delves into the emotional complexities of separation and the pivotal role therapists play in steering individuals towards a collaborative divorce. We unpack the stark contrasts between marital therapy, coaching and mediation support, shining a light on how emotional intelligence and self-management can dramatically alter the course of a divorce for the better. This journey isn't just about the end of a partnership; it's an invitation to understand the importance of professional guidance in fostering healthy communication and mutual respect during what can be one of life's most challenging transitions.
Navigating the stormy seas of divorce can leave many adrift, but with the help of mental health professionals, couples can find their way to calmer waters. The Three Wisemen of Divorce offer insights on how incorporating therapists into the divorce process can lead to healthier, more strategic outcomes, particularly when children and co-parenting arrangements are involved. We explore the signs that indicate a need for professional help and discuss the concept of 'the good divorce', aiming to transform the post-divorce family dynamic into one focused on the collective well-being. This conversation is a beacon of hope, illustrating that even amidst the heartache of separation, there's an opportunity to emerge stronger and more connected as co-parents.
Concluding our episode, we confront the nuanced art of co-parenting and the strategic navigation of divorce mediation. The invaluable perspective of a mental health professional is not to be underestimated, even in the most amicable of separations. The Three Wisemen of Divorce share practical advice on personal growth, self-sufficiency, and the development of new communication skills that are essential in post-divorce life. By embracing these strategies, individuals are empowered to manage their new dynamics with poise and collaboration, always with the best interests of their children at heart. Join us for this profound exploration, and let us guide you toward a future of resilience and cooperation in the face of change.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
And I just love that, that imagery that you gave us there of dancing joyfully. I always say you want to dance at your daughter's wedding, but the dancing joyfully part that now I'm sure that may feel a reach for some people.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Absolutely I'll dance, but I'm keeping arms length you know I'm not dancing with him.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I had that in a meeting the other day. The person's like I'm not going to dance with him. I'll dance, but I'm not going to dance with him.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Would you be willing to do a line dance? Can we agree?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:on that.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Yes, yes, welcome to the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law podcast.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Sit down with the California divorce experts financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, marriage and family therapist Pete Russo's and attorney Sean Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co-parenting and the difficult decisions real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you are looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 60 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co-parenting. Well, we are almost done with our three-part series. We've done why it's important and how it's important and useful to have an attorney involved in your mediation. We talked about the usefulness of a financial specialist as part of your divorce mediation and this week, for this podcast, we want to talk about the role of a mental health professional in a mediation and before we started recording, you and I, pete, were talking about the different angles and different roles that a mental health professional can play in a divorce mediation, but there would seem to be a unifying theme.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Yeah, I think that the 30,000-foot view, if you will, is.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:I think that my role is really about helping people manage themselves through the difficult and challenging emotions that come up as part of the divorce process, as part of trying to transition into a more collaborative co-parenting, dealing with the grief that I think is inevitable. Even when someone views a divorce as being the really healthy decision, the right decision for them, I think there's almost always a grief process that's involved, and so how do they work through those emotions and then the very practical aspects of it. When I'm assisting in a mediation, often my role is to help people manage their reactive moments better so that they can communicate more effectively, be engaged more effectively in a settlement discussion that might at times be challenging and difficult. So, again, I think the broad thing that ties these different ways that I can be involved together is how do I help people learn how to manage the thoughts and feelings that come up for them, that are painful, that are challenging, as they're going through the ending of a marriage and the conditioning of a family?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:And, of course, we've also seen that inverse relationship, the inverse proportion relationship, between the people that actually need a coach and the ones that are willing to hire a coach or a mental health professional. It tends to be that when you're like I don't need a mental health professional, there's the ones that I worry about the most.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:And also there's the resistance that you get from people oh no, I don't need another mental health professional. We spent years in therapy. It was a waste of time and money. Look where we ended up.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:It failed.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Exactly. So it's important to explain the difference of the roles as a marital therapist and as assisting in the mediation.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Yeah, well, I would say the goals and the objectives are definitely different. What's interesting for me, though, is the way that I work with people in therapy versus the way that I work with people that I'm assisting in either mediation or working as a coach and collaborative process is absolutely the same. My core focus is on self-management and what it is that the people need to do to manage themselves in more appropriate, respectful and effective ways when they are feeling uncomfortable, when they're triggered, when they're dealing with tough issues, and so the but, but, having said that, the goals and the objectives it is about getting through a divorce process in the healthiest way possible. It's about being more collaborative co-parents, and so those are way more specific. It's about disentangling as romantic partners, not trying to transform and heal a romantic relationship. So the focus is very, very, very different, but I think the dynamics and this is part of the work, the things that made the marriage difficult are going to play out in a mediation and a collaborative process. In fact, one of the things that actually drew me to collaborative work and let me figure this out I started doing, I got trained in the collaborative model in 1996.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:And I had been done one of my internships at Family Court Services in Santa Clara County. That was my first exposure to divorce work. That's how I met practitioners in the collaborative divorce model, and one of the things that really drew me to the model was hearing Nancy Ross talk about how she had been working cases, and it wasn't unusual for her to hear clients in a collaborative divorce say that they wished that they had connected with Nancy sooner, and what they recognized was they were able to make these healthy changes as part of their coaching process. In a collaborative divorce process, they were actually able to transform their dynamic with each other and it became much healthier. And it was this bittersweet moment where they found themselves thinking, oh what if we had been able to do this work sooner? Who knows, maybe?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:the. I was going to say there's a lot there that we need to unpack for our listeners who may not be familiar with collaborative practice or collaborative divorce and Nancy Ross. But collaborative practice is the movement that came out right about when you started in that practice in the mid-90s, where and we've had Stu Webb who was the father of collaborative divorce on our podcast, and we've had Nancy Ross, who I would say she's the mother of the coaching in collaborative practice Absolutely the idea that you would have various professionals from various fields collaborate on a case together attorneys, mental health professionals, financial professionals and all of them sign an agreement that says that they're never going to go to court.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:And I think, sean, to the question that really this podcast is focused on. So what does a mental health professional bring to the process? The movement to collaborative practice, I think, was driven by this recognition, yeah, that in a divorce there are the legal elements, there are financial elements and there are psychological, emotional elements and you have to work in all three.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Which is a lot of what this podcast means right. Absolutely, it requires a divorce, but we come from our three fields. We believe strongly that you can't settle a case until you resolve the financial, the emotional and the legal needs of both of the clients, and so that I think, bringing in a mental health professional from the collaborative model I think we've learned so much about working with mental health professionals from the collaborative movement that it has really made mediation better.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Well, I want to revisit a question that we have talked about, I think, in the context of the financial specialist discussion, but the way that I think about it is that the one professional that is needed, if you will, in order for a couple to get divorced is the attorney. The attorneys are needed, if you will, and even that is cast in concrete, but the financial specialist and the mental health professionals are not needed in order to get divorced. I would argue that they certainly facilitate having a healthy divorce process, a healthier divorce process.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:And, I would say, better outcomes, from my standpoint certainly.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I might rephrase the way you said that, please, who's needed versus who's not needed. I think all of them are needed, but one. You can get divorced unless you have a legal process, which is why the attorneys kind of seem more essential.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:But so let me ask you both, because we and this is part of the question that we were talking about, the financial specialist. I think I asked you, sean. So how do you determine that you, that a case really would benefit from having a financial specialist? So let's, let's alter that question how do the two of you determine that a case really would benefit by having a mental health professional involved?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I think the number one thing is when I'm meeting with people for the first time and I'm seeing that there is a struggle in self-awareness, being able to be aware number one of what the other person is saying or coming from and also, are you aware of how you are coming across? Are you aware of your own emotions? And I think so many people it's almost an emotional intelligence argument so many people when they get into the divorce they get stuck with that fight or flight. They're very intelligent, normally very emotionally intelligent people lose control of that emotional response. When I see that happening, then I think a coach can be very useful.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:The other thing is, if there's fear from one party towards the other, I find that having a mental health professional involved can really help, because what you're really managing is the fight or flight response and you're also managing the person that is feared does things probably where that person does not realize that they are eliciting fear from the other person. Having a mental health professional and say hey, you know the way you say this from a strategy standpoint is less effective. If you could say it this way would resonate better with your soon to be a spouse and then might actually get you to better outcomes.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:One of the red flags that I get is when people want to tell me why the money needs to go in a certain way, because of something happened in the marriage In other words because she did this.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:I need this to happen financially. That is generally something that I mean. You always say, sean, we can talk about the who, what and the when, but please let's stay away from the why, because that's when we get into the difficulties of really relitigating what happened in the marriage. And, as I say to clients, wouldn't it be unreasonable to think that the divorce would be any easier than the marriage was? And that usually gets them to go. Oh yeah, I guess.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Mark, what you're saying, I think, is the really important distinction to make to those people who have said we were in marriage therapy multiple times. It didn't help us. We don't need coaching because it's not going to help us to be able to make it very, very clear that it's not about going back and rehashing but sometimes it does involve a certain amount of grief, work just to get them through the process and help them the individuals, in their own adjustments but that it is very, very focused on the goals and objectives of getting through the divorce process in the healthiest and most respective way possible to have a better outcome.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:And if there are children involved, it's even more important because there's the requirement for a relationship or an interaction to occur.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Well, that's a very good, but you brought up what are the things that would make me one to bring in a mental health professional. If I'm seeing alienation or estrangement happening with the kids, it's hard for me to know what is really going on with the family. And having a mental health professional, either as a neutral child specialist or two mental health professionals working with each party, it helps me understand the family system a little better as a dispute resolution person, and then I can then figure out then how to align that emotional, legal and financial needs but then also do it in a way that makes them more effective as co-parents and protects the children. I was watching the crown last night. I'm sure Mark is thrilled that I watched the crown, but there was a scene where Diana and Charles the people playing them Charles said we didn't do a very good job as spouses, but maybe we could do a better job with all of this, and he points to his two sons, maybe we could be better partners, and I thought that's actually a good point.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I know this is a dramatization and the conversation may not have even occurred, and who cares anyway? Because it's the royal family who cares about them. But understanding that this message that we failed is, if you want to use that word, even fail in our marriage. Our marriage did not go well. Things were not butterflies and rainbows. That's why we're here. But can we improve the way that we communicate and work together so that we could be effective partners in rearing our children? I think of Connie Arons Constance Arons, who wrote the book the Good Divorce and was a mental health professional here in San Diego that I've done a lot of good work with before she passed away and all of us did. She talks about in her book the different types of parenting, co-parenting styles. And there's the bitter enemies, those people. But then the ones that really work out well where it's a good divorce, those are the ones that are the power partnership.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Well, the other thing that I heard that drew me to the model and this was in the training that I did in the collaborative doors model was that the goal, if you will, where what they wanted people to envision was that a couple could get divorced and then they could, at some point in the future, dance joyfully together at the wedding of their child?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Dance joyfully together.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Yes, yeah, you imagine. And what a gift to be able to give a child, for parents to pull themselves together and to be able to do that.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:And actually feel good about it, not just like I'm going to put on a strong face. I'm going to be good for the kids, but, like you know, I actually want to have a partnership with this, my co-creator. You know, when you're a parent, you're a co-creator. I always say it's as close to being near God as possible because you are creating life, and to be a co-creator with this person and these people that need you. Having that ability to get there is so huge and I just love that imagery that you gave us there of dancing joyfully. I always say, do you want to dance at your daughter's wedding? But the dancing joyfully part dad. Now.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:I'm sure that may feel a reach for some people.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:I'll dance, but I'm keeping arms length you know I'm not dancing with him.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I had that in a meeting the other day. The person's like I'm not going to dance with him. I'll dance, but I'm not going to dance with him.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Would you be willing to do a line dance?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:And we agree on that. Yes, yes.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:I think it's important that we hold out these higher objectives but also recognize when they may not be realistic. And what is it that we can do to minimize the hurt, to reduce the damage and, hopefully for me in my role, to try to impart some skill building and some tools that they can build on so that things can improve over the longer term between them.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:So let's talk about the different ways that a mental health professional can be utilized on a case.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I feel like there's so many different angles where a mental health professional can be involved.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:One is, maybe you're the couples therapist and they've decided in couples therapy that it divorces what needs to happen, and then you become the divorce therapist and that continues and parties can sign releases to allow the mental health professional that they're continuing to work with to communicate with the mediator, and I always find it to be very useful, yeah, and then there's children's therapists. They're providing therapists to a child and I had a case recently and I've done this frequently where there's a release signed so the eyes of the mediator can communicate with the mental health professional. And this is before. I was going to have a meeting with a 15 year old girl about her feelings about the divorce and wanted to be able to express things and I was able to talk to her mental health professional, her therapist, and we got on the same page and it ended up being very useful meeting and then I now need to report back to the therapist what happened and get more feedback. And the therapist actually took some of the therapy time to prepare the child for the meeting with the mediator?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Yeah, that was very useful, well, and I want to give credit to you for working in that way. I also want to give credit to the parents and their willingness to authorize that to the 15 year old, to be willing to engage in that way, and for the therapist to support that, because that doesn't always happen?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Yeah, it doesn't always happen. And I think a lot of times therapists are out there and they hear divorce legal proceeding and they're very worried they're going to be sucked in as a witness or that things that they tell the mediator show up in court in a public way. And I always reassure the mental health professionals that I work with. Listen, at least in California, under evidence code 1119, everything that is discussed in mediation, including the conversations between a therapist and a mediator, have some of the strongest confidentiality in the entire evidence code. There's nothing really that can be done to breach that code unless, like you know, there was a reportable event or something that occurred, you know like somebody was in danger, a child is in danger or something like that. Well then, that would breach the confidentiality and that would be discoverable. But other than that, anything that is said between the mediator and the therapist is strictly confidential and I don't share it with the parties, even you know, and that that's some reassurance that they've been given to a mental health professional.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Oh, this is actually a safer environment for my clients to be in and if they were to go to court and I've seen people lose licenses or come close to losing licenses, over saying the wrong thing to an attorney in a litigation case or being a witness when they're really a therapist. You know they have to be careful about their roles that way, Absolutely. And then there's there's also then the, the coach, the collaborative coach model that works very well in mediation to where you're not providing therapy. You know what happened to you when you're too with your mom. I joke about but but about what am I going to do now for the to prepare for this meeting or to get friends moment in my history?
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:and focusing on the communication between the couple.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Yeah, I mean that's, that's another role. And then there's the collaborative child specialist role, which is a person that could come in and be a child specialist.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Yeah, and the coaching role can be I mean, there is absolutely the part of it about helping people to understand and manage their, their thoughts and feelings more effectively but also can be very nuts and bolts in terms of skill building how they say what they say, the tone that they use. Another role that, another way that I'll work in the process, is that the mediator or the, the consulting attorneys they may refer the couple back to me to talk about the co-parenting agreement, or there may be even be some specific questions that they have vis-a-vis settlement that they want to discuss with me, and I mean that one of the advantages of that is that that is a less expensive way to have those preliminary discussions and I think that can work really well when there's coordination amongst the professional team members.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I think that's key is the coordination between the professionals Absolutely, absolutely and the clients allowing the professionals to do that, because sometimes people get concerned about losing control of their case and turning it over to a professional. But I think these conversations that the professionals can have behind your back I was joking, we're going to talk about you behind your back those are actually very helpful so that we can be very frank with each other, and then again, that's all protected by mediation confidentiality.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Well, also, it saves money, because if one of us has obtained information since the last team meeting, that revealed in the meeting would cause all sorts of consternation which does happen you find out something happened around the money that one spouse has revealed that the other spouse had no knowledge of. My concern is that it's going to result in a blow up. We can talk about how to address it and how best, who best to bring it up and how it should be discussed, and that is very powerful. But if we don't have those pre-meetings as I like to call them 15, 30 minutes before getting on with everybody, sometimes I feel I'm going into a meeting and I get blindsided because I just don't know that something else occurred in another sphere of the case.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Yeah. So I think, mark, what you're referencing connects with something that we've talked about before, and that is how people, how clients, react to the idea that there's a professional team involved, and how important it is that we help them understand why it's actually going to save them money in the long run, because it's a more efficient process, there's a greater level of a coordination of care, which is absolutely key and for them to understand why the process works the way it does and that involving people in the ways that we're suggesting is really the more cost effective and efficient way to approach the work in the longer term.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I always say bringing in the mental health professionals. Like lubrication for the ball bearings the machinery might work without it, but there's going to be more friction and parts wear out. But when you lubricate the ball bearings it's much more efficient and it's better for the equipment.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:So let's talk about the other side of it, then, because there are absolutely those cases where it's not necessary. And so what are the cases where a mental health professional isn't necessary?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:It's one of those things where people came to a joint decision that a divorce makes sense and they're getting along well. If they're getting along well and I'm not seeing that lack of emotional control or emotional self-awareness If people are emotionally self-aware and they're able to reach, make proposals, reasonable proposals and respond reasonably to proposals, then I find that a mental health professional may not be as necessary, although I struggle to find a case where a mental health professional couldn't help at all.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:My challenge with that is that I've had you know when we used to meet face to face all the time.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:I would always allow the clients to seat themselves in my big conference room the first time, like to sort of make sure everyone was positioned correctly. When we got into the case, and if they were on the far cap ends of the 12 person table, I had a very different case, as if they were sitting in chairs next to each other. So there's an indication right from the start. If they're across from each other, that tells you something too. But the problem I had is sometimes people would come in almost be holding hands, but you always find out why they're getting divorced.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Everybody's got a kryptonite.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Exactly, and my mistake has been. Well, these folks are playing nicely in my presence. I presume they're going to do just fine, they don't need a coach, and I will say nine out of 10 times that was a bad decision on my behalf.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Well, I think, mark, that my belief absolutely is far better to err on the side of having the mental health professionals involved at the outset and then use them very sparingly, than to have things go awry and try to bring them in later.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Because it can feel remedial to the clients. Oh you've really screwed up. Now we're going to have to bring in a mental health professional.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:And that doesn't feel good.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I will say this 100% of my clients could benefit from some involvement with a mental health professional. I mean, every human probably ought to have therapy at some point in their lives, I believe. And it doesn't mean that you're defective or weak because you need to consult with a therapist or a mental health professional. It's because you're a human and you have emotions just like the rest of us. And I've done cases. I actually represented a family law attorney at court in his own custody for a senior court and he said to me I realized that I'm a family law attorney, I represent people all the time at court, but I realized that I couldn't represent myself at court.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:And I think there's a reason why mental health professionals are prohibited from doing therapy on themselves or their family members. And it's because you're a human. You're going to have those things that creep up that make it impossible for you to be truly objective and truly able to make decisions. And what I want people to make decisions on is on good information and objective criteria, not on some emotional reaction. So having someone that can help them recognize and control their own emotions, it's just. It's useful in every case. I can't think of one where it wouldn't be useful. I can think of cases where we can get through it and I'm pretty good. I've got a lot of. You know I'm a pretty good mediator. I'm trained in dispute resolution. I know how to help people bridge gap. But you know, there's I struggled to think of a case where they couldn't have benefited from the mental health profession.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:And when you're thinking about the difference of how we all practice and how family law litigators practice is the. I believe we all have a concern about how this couple are going to do individually and separately post-judgment, whereas with the litigators you got your judgment, I'm done. I'm on to the next case. I don't think they spend a lot of time worrying about how wife is going to survive having kept her how she couldn't really afford. They're on to the next case. But our process focuses not just on getting a deal cut that they can both feel okay about signing. It's really about setting up for success on a both an emotional and a financial standpoint.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:From that angle, and you said it a moment ago, pete, when you said you know people need to learn skills Right, I always say you're learning a new muscle. When you're interacting in a divorce situation and when you go to the gym for the first time in a while, you feel muscles you didn't know you had and I think that happens in divorce.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Well, it does require, though, a willingness on the part of the clients to avail themselves of the resource, to recognize that working with a mental health professional is in their best interests. And, you know, somebody can recognize that something is in their best interest and be willing to do it and not particularly like it, particularly at the outset. All of that can happen simultaneously, but what doesn't work? It's interesting. I'm thinking back to the point in my career where I made the decision I am no longer going to accept court-ordered cases. There was a period of time where I would get referrals from the court for people that were involved in really bad litigated divorces and somebody being court-ordered to therapy. That just doesn't go well, it doesn't work, and so I think similarly, if a person really doesn't want to do to connect and work with a mental health professional as part of a collaborative process, it's probably not going to be particularly helpful, although I would say that's probably also, you know, fairly representative of how they're going to show up in the process more broadly as well.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Guys, I have a question that you know I've. The situation I've come across on more than one occasion is when I bring up the concept of the mental health professional, the response has been well, yes, he needs one, but I don't. He could certainly benefit, but I don't how do you?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:She's crazy, she certainly is.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Exactly so. How do you approach that from a therapy, from a therapist standpoint?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:Well, the way that I address that is here's the bottom line is what I would say to a person in that situation is it sounds like you would like your soon-to-be-exposed to be very introspective and to be self-examining and looking at their behavior, and you know the answer to that is yes, absolutely. Or sometimes with a particular swear word in front of the word yes, right, yes. And when I will say well, the best way to ensure that or to encourage that is to do it yourself. So if you want them to be involved in coaching, it's in your interest to do it as well.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:And then I also say because that can't be a kind of manipulative step they have to recognize and they have to understand that all couples co-create their dynamic and they both have a responsibility in it. But the bottom line is they can't expect their acts to do something that they themselves are not willing to do.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I'll often ask a person that's resistant to hiring a mental health professional have you ever had a conversation with your spouse where it just didn't go well and you said something that just blew the and she reacted very strongly or he reacted very strongly to it in a way you didn't expect? Oh yeah, that's why we're getting divorced. Well, a coach can help you kind of avoid those landmarks, yeah, and can kind of help you understand there's a reason why you're getting divorced. Right, it's not because you guys are getting along fantastically. Would you like to be able to get along well enough to be able to get through this process? Yes, Well, maybe this person can help you know how to react to it. Kind of, maybe it sounds a little manipulative, but you need somebody to help you react to her craziness or his craziness, Somebody that can kind of help you have a better strategy for how you're going to work with this very difficult person.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:A strategy I have used is to use the children mercilessly. Basically, you're having real challenges in your co-parenting. You've shared that with me. I think you might be able to get some assistance around that so your kids will be less negatively impacted by what's going on, because you both expressed to me that you want your kids to do well.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:None of this. Even though it sounds kind of like we're manipulating, we're not, because we're telling the truth. The one thing we know that screws kids up in a divorce is the conflict. If we can do something to reduce the conflict by bringing a mental health professional and protect your kids thereby, wouldn't you want to be a part of that? Would you like to be able to have strategies to deal with this person? That's been very difficult for you. It hasn't worked so far.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:You're getting divorced. Would you like to have a better relationship with this person even though you're divorcing them? Most people are like, yeah, I actually would like to be able to know how to interact with that person. I think the hardest ones to approach are the ones that think they're the smartest person in the room all the time. I don't need that. I know how to work with her. I just tell her off. Those people are hard because they think they know better and they blame everybody else for their problems.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:I get that in the financial space too. I understand all of this stuff. My response to that is and I was explaining that to your wife gone over the last 20 years would you like somebody who could actually help her understand that the offer you're making is a generous offer?
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:The folks that think they're the best financial genius in the universe. But they've done their own day trading. They've underperformed the S&P 500 consistently for the last 25 years.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Those kind of people yes they are.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:I think we're drawing a distinction between the cases that they reach a settlement successfully. Then there are those cases that thrive way beyond that, where the people are willing to be introspective. Both partners are willing to be introspective. They're willing to think about their contributions to the co-created dynamic between them. They're able to manage their self-righteousness or their entitlement or their hurt, anger, disappointment. They're really able to come to a collaborative way of being with each other that's better for them both as they separate into the world as individuals, no longer partners and co-parents.
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:I think it's fair to say you guys correct me if I'm wrong it's a very, very rare case that we get started with that. We can't get the parties to a place of they're divorced, they've signed an MSA, but we aspire to so much more and want to provide so much more for the people that are willing to do the work, and maybe we're coming full circle. I think that the mental health professional that my role is really trying to facilitate that growth process for people in this, that they literally use their divorce as a way of growing. I was going to say that.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Pete, the summary of what you were saying before is can both of these individuals grow throughout the process, become a little more self-aware, a little more competent in, perhaps, the fields they were not as involved in during the marriage, be it the parenting, be it the money? There's always a division of labor in a marriage. That means that one knows more about the kids, one knows more about the money, and that's perfectly healthy when you're married. But when you divorce, that imbalance can have a negative impact on the future. And then the person who didn't handle the money grow to the point where he or she is comfortable in doing a budget, paying the bills, living within their means. Can the person that had no idea what was going on with the children until the weekend came be aware of the fact that they need to have their equipment with them in the morning when they go, otherwise they can't go to practice after school, that kind of stuff, absolutely.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:And I think there's. I love it when people make me irrelevant as their mediator so my job is to help bridge gaps and resolve disputes and when people learn the skills to where they don't need a professional mediator to sit with them every time they talk about something. That's to me, that is a payday for me, because so I feel happier when I don't get repeat business. Maybe it's not a good business model, but it's actually better for the world because I love it when I don't have to hear from people again. Now, that said, sometimes people come back because they need some help.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:But learning the skills to be able to resolve your own disputes, to be able to hear each other's grievances, hear each other's concerns and be aware of one another's needs, even post-divorce and your children's needs, is really what we're looking for and that's really why we've you know, we kind of tie everything together from our three-part series. We've got the attorneys, we've got the to help with the legal needs, we have the financial professional to help with the financial needs and we have the mental health professionals to help with the emotional needs, and really all three of them working together. It's the three stools to dispute resolution, or the three legs to the stool for dispute resolution. It enables everybody to have the skills they need and the information they need to be able to not need us anymore.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:And some people come into this process not willing to really participate in it. You know they want to have the professionals talk, from their lawyer to talk for them, and what we've been dealing with addressing today requires them to become engaged and to become a part of the process, as opposed to an observer of the process.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:I can't tell you how many cases I've had where a person is like I cannot be in the same room with that person, yeah, and I'm like, well, let's just see how this goes Right. And usually by the end of the process they're able to do it. Maybe it's not comfortable, maybe they're angry and hurt and betrayed and all of the above, but they can do it. They've got a new skill, they've got it and they're stronger as a result. Yeah, yeah, well, go ahead, we did it again.
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:We do that every time.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Yeah, so Pete, if somebody needs a mental health professional to participate in their divorce mediation, what should they do?
Peter Roussos, M.A., MFT, CST:They can go to my website peterrusoscom. It's p-e-t-e-r-r-o-u-s-s-o-scom. I've got a lot of information there about my practice and my way of working and they can email me from the contact me page there.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:Okay and Mark, if somebody needs some help with the financial aspects of their divorce, what should they do?
Mark Hill, CFP, CDFA:Once again go into the website it's the company name is Pacific Divorce Management, the website is pacdivorcecom and we have a contact form on there too.
Shawn Weber, CLS-F:And if you need help resolving your legal dispute, I am here. My name is Sean Weber it's Weber Dispute Resolution W-e-b-e-r-1-b, like the grill disputeresolutioncom, and we can help you get matched with a mediator to resolve any dispute that you have. Okay, well, until next time, no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation. Thank you.