Divorce, Well-intentioned Friends, and the Well-paved Road to Hell

Word gets out that there is a divorce in the works.  Well-intentioned friends and family come out of the woodwork to offer advice.  What could go wrong?  The road to hell is well-paved with good intentions.  So be careful where you get your advice and how much you involve your friends.  Financial Divorce Consultant Mark Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Psychologist Scott Weiner, Ph.D., J.D. and Attorney and Mediator Shawn Weber, CLS-F discuss how to handle the firehose of unsolicited advice.

The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney. 

Transcript

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Shawn Weber: 0:03

Welcome to the three wise men of divorce, money, Psych and law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts, financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, psychologist Scott Weiner and attorney Shawn Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co parenting, and the difficult decisions, real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you're looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 70 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation, and co parenting. All right, another episode of the three wise men of divorce. i I'm here with Mark Hill, financial advisor extraordinaire. And I'm here with Scott Wiener, psychologist, Attorney mediator. All around cool guy. And I'm Sean Weber. And we're the three wise men of divorce. And we're here to talk about we struggled with what we were going to call this podcast. Let's see if I get it right. Divorce. Well, intention friends and the well paved road to hell.

Scott Weiner: 1:31

Not bad

Shawn Weber: 1:32

Did I get it right?

Scott Weiner: 1:33

I think so.

Shawn Weber: 1:35

So there's a lot there. And basically, it's it never fails, word gets out that there's a divorce in the works. We don't even know for sure divorce is going to happen. But it might happen and word gets out. And well intentioned people will come out of the woodwork to offer unsolicited advice and sometimes solicited advice. So how how how do you guys perceive that going?

Scott Weiner: 2:07

Well, you have to start out with what in the world could be wrong with that. These people are well intended. They they're you know, they're out in the world. They're they're adults. They're serious. They're sincere. And they might have been through divorce. Oh, yes, there's that too. So of course, if you've been through it once that means you know, you're an expert. Oh, well, kind of. Yeah.

Shawn Weber: 2:30

It worked in my divorce. So it must work in your divorce. Right? Even though we live in totally different states. And we have a totally different situation.

Scott Weiner: 2:40

Oh, you're such a lawyer you. Well, why is this the road to hell, it is the road to hell in that, that old saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. That the positive view is that people are really trying to limit somebody else's pain. And there they are well intended. But circumstances, different law, different realities, different people, all of these things. God, it's almost incredible the variation that any one factor can introduce into one of these situations.

Mark Hill: 3:25

And one of the things you'll often hear is, Well, my girlfriend said that her lawyer was awful. So I should go get her husband's attorney because she got nothing in the divorce. And so you move into that adversarial positioning approach very early. Because you if you've had somebody as a close confidant, a friend who's experienced the loss, they're going to try and prevent that loss on your behalf. But again, we caution because it may send you in the wrong direction.

Scott Weiner: 3:57

Well, we brought this up in a former podcast in which we were discussing the emotional atmosphere of this situation, which is naturally fraught with fear. And what are people going to do in fear, they're going to run like hell or they're going to fight. And that feeds right into the adversarial situation you discussed. It's natural to go there.

Shawn Weber: 4:20

Well, and we have friends that we're hoping they're going to bolster us and our friends want to defend us and protect us. It's this tribal thing where we just kind of encircle each other. And I think what happens then is feelings of combat, come to play and when you when you know when you're about ready to have a fight, what you want to do is go get more friends to help you with the fight. And so folks will ramp each other up. I think with this advice and sometimes, you know, the advice can be very damaging,

Mark Hill: 4:51

and it can be even more polarizing. I've seen longer term relationships where there had been a relationship with both spouses and Now the person is picking sides. Yes. And that makes a pretty even more toxic environment. Because often the the other spouse will feel like, well, you turned her against me, that kind of thing. So it gets triangulation, and the more people that are involved in relationships, the more complex it becomes

Shawn Weber: 5:20

people divided into camps. Teams, yeah, I'm gonna be on this person's team, or I'm gonna be on that person's team. And I've heard couples say, The divorce was also also very difficult because I lost a lot of friends, because they sided with the other party. Yes. And that can be really damaging to I mean, your friends aren't divorcing you, you're divorcing this other person. But, you know, when you when you develop orbits of influence that you want to maintain, you also seek out negative advocates who can advocate for you in a negative way. We talked about this before, the initial inclination for a lot of people is to go find the biggest shark in town. But we've talked about how that can be really damaging to look for a shark first, as opposed to somebody that's more of a problem solver, and help you, you know, transition your family in a healthy way.

Mark Hill: 6:17

You know, another thing I've seen too, is that when family become involved, it really complicates things when their children say the parents of one of the spouses gets involved, because they are afraid they're going to not be protected. They're in mediation, they don't have the shark attorney or the, you know, the man with the sword and the shield going and fighting on behalf of their son or daughter. And they get involved. And then it really polarizes the whole family relationship. And grandparent relationships can be impacted negatively. So before you go down that road, you want to start thinking, be aware that there's consequences to it. The road to hell, us, that's my colleague, so actually bought it.

Shawn Weber: 7:03

Well, and the other thing is, we probably all played that telephone game in high school, you know, where you start on one side of the room and you tell a story. And then we get to the other side of the room, it's a totally different story. And that happens in spades with our acquaintances and friends and family, when the divorce is happening, people talk and the only time I've ever had violence happen in my conference room, in a mediation was over this very issue, a person took a cup of hot coffee and hurled it across the room at the other person. Wow. And it was because things had gotten into the rumor mill, and maybe we'll talk to uncle Charlie and, and, and, and it had twisted. And you know, obviously, I can't mediate a case, if people are hurling coffee at each other. And it ended up they ended up going to court and it was very, very difficult for them. So you want to be careful about who you involve in your divorce. And make sure that the decisions you're making are your own. And that this is the family system that you're in is with your spouse, even though you might be estranged, keeping it in the family system, with your spouse, who should be the primary decision makers is, in my opinion, the best strategy, but what do you do when you need advice? Where do you go guys,

Scott Weiner: 8:22

I'm listening to all of us discuss this. And I'm thinking about that individual who is right at the beginning of the situation of realizing that they simply must or they deeply wish to end their marriage. There's so much fear, there's so much out of you know, so much lack of control. And it's no wonder that they go to any port in a storm. And the person with the strongest voice and the the biggest surety probably relieves their momentary anxiety best when we were talking about this podcast and what we were going to talk about. The first way we were going to name this was the Greek chorus, we were talking about the Greek chorus, we were also saying that the Greek chorus and the old Greek theater, they really did know what was true and what was best. And they saw all that was like the position of the gods with regard to the tragic figures, who knew nothing. And they got no benefit from the knowledge of the course. It's like the course and the audience. Were one and those poor tragic actors were up there, you know, facing their flaws, and usually one or more of them dying because of

Mark Hill: 9:35

it. And that's the comedies

Scott Weiner: 9:37

no comedy, everybody's flawed.

Mark Hill: 9:41

No, no, no, but we still get some deaths even calamities I'm pointing out they don't all have to be dreadful.

Scott Weiner: 9:47

But the Greek chorus is i Although Aristophanes may have comedy may have a course in the comedy who is just making huge laughter about everything, although it's pretty funny. But yeah, so all All of that, that noise, all of that. It's like white noise. It's like a channel that's like the the old TV jam between channels what you're hearing what you're hearing, it's not good guidance. And you'll hear strong people strongly holding, you should do this and another good friend equally well intended, strongly urging you to do exactly the opposite. So, what do you do? Who do you trust?

Shawn Weber: 10:28

So when you hear those people talking to you, Mark, you, I've heard you say this to people, what should people hear when the Greek chorus is coming to you?

Mark Hill: 10:36

I say this, I say, listen, and this is what I want you to take from it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, we love you, we want the best for you. We worried for your future, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's the message they're sending by trying to give you advice they want to help. As we say, it's well intentioned. Unfortunately, it's confusing. And what if you don't follow that advice? Are you going to offend that friend? She said, go out and get the strongest attorney, we know that firms you should hire downtown. And you don't do it, you go into mediation, and then you talk to them about how mediation is hard work, too. And it's tough. And they're like, well, you should have gotten it to an attorney. So where's the benefit in that?

Shawn Weber: 11:26

Where's the benefit in?

Mark Hill: 11:27

What is the benefit in enlisting a friend taking advice from them and then finding out it's inappropriate to follow it? And then you gotta go back and tell them you didn't do it?

Shawn Weber: 11:38

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Hill: 11:40

That can undermine the relationship.

Shawn Weber: 11:42

So who should they get advice from?

Mark Hill: 11:44

Well, if you should speak to somebody? Well, it depends. I mean, the people entered divorce through all the different doors, people, sometimes I get calls out of the blue, I'm thinking about getting divorced, but I need to kind of understand how the money might work out before I would even go down that road. And then there are folks who come through the legal door, I just need to understand that this works legally, I'm really concerned that this, you know, as my inheritance protected, did I do I had to pay support, you know, for the rest of my life, those kinds of questions that you would want to talk to a lawyer. But many people approach it through the mental health door, because they're in therapy, or they've tried to make the marriage work,

Scott Weiner: 12:26

or they're utterly convinced that they are saying and their spouse is bat, whatever, crazy.

Mark Hill: 12:37

You know, so it's like, fix this jerk, right? If you could just fix this jerk this marriage would be fine.

Shawn Weber: 12:43

I mean, the moral of the story here is there are different professionals for different purposes. Right, so So Mark, somebody would come to you if they got a financial question, your your you should not be getting financial advice from a lawyer. Most of us went to law school, so we wouldn't have to do math. Very true. You know, and most lawyers that I know, I mean, there's a few of them out there, they got the NBA and the lawyer, their CPA and a lawyer, but most lawyers are terrible with money. And they pay other people to tell them how to handle their money. And you don't want to go to a financial advisor to get legal advice, although a lot of them know enough to be dangerous. And a mental health professional has another set of set of skills that that

Scott Weiner: 13:30

and a huge universe of deficits. I mean, really. Let me count the ways, and I probably work but

Shawn Weber: 13:44

how does that people go to the mental health? Because they need I think, is that the old stuff, right?

Scott Weiner: 13:49

Well, in the case of people going into divorce, oftentimes, because they're sure someone else does, but it is right. You know, there are times when what I hear coming in the door is a preview of the great grief to come. And you know, and then I will I won't do the legal work if they come in the door this way. And it's like they're, I almost always, almost always succeed at getting people to mediate rather than to litigate. I think I've seen three cases in the last 35 years that I was absolutely certain had to litigate because of the exceeding, exceeding egregious level of sociopathy on one side that you know, I mean, there would have been no way to trust I mean, those people would have signed away, you know, perjured wouldn't have mattered I don't know how

Shawn Weber: 14:56

sure I mean, there are cases where we're battle is required. Yeah. You know, they're out there, but they are exceedingly rare.

Scott Weiner: 15:02

That's three and 35 years. I'm saying that had to do that,

Shawn Weber: 15:05

it's that they have to do it now, like DV cases, even some DV cases you can get into mediation. You know, it's but but you do

Mark Hill: 15:13

ask the question, will these folks be better off doing this in court?

Shawn Weber: 15:17

Correct? Yeah. Are they going to be better off?

Mark Hill: 15:19

When you ask that question? The answer is often no,

Shawn Weber: 15:21

most times, most of the time, no, most of the time. And I think also, it's important for the person who's contemplating a divorce to think about what are their values before they hire their professional. So So, if you go, and I can't tell you how many people have told me this, I went to this lawyer, and they were highly recommended, but they were so adversarial. And it seemed like they were just churning up things, and they're gonna make this into a battle that I didn't think it should have been. And then I didn't, but I didn't follow my instincts, I just went ahead and went with this person, because they were highly rated, and then it turned into a disaster. And and I think you have to have the courage to say, You know what this person, I mean, that little voice in my head is telling me that this is the wrong place to be. And you need to listen to that little voice.

Mark Hill: 16:06

That's really important that you give yourself permission to realize that, yes, you're going to a lawyer for advice, but you are in control, correct. They work for you. And we get to so many circumstances where I hear from clients, well, my lawyer said, I had to do this. And I had to do that. And I did those things. And then it went off the rails. And then they said, we had to do this. And it's like, I didn't want to do anything I tell

Shawn Weber: 16:31

you, I'm a big believer that people have generally have a good light within them that makes them want to do right. And when you're in there in a situation, and you're meeting with somebody that's making all of that good and you feel triggered, or feel like this is this is wrong. This doesn't feel right. It's probably smart to listen to that. You know, I think some people you know, they just want to raise hell anyway. And that they'd probably do well with a shark. But most people you guys ever watch that movie marriage story that was on Netflix with Adam Driver? And yes, and there's this scene where Adam driver goes to the attorney who's a shark. And the attorneys tell him all these horrible things he needs to do to his wife, and how they're going to paint this story. And he's like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do you know, and then because he felt backed into a corner, because the wife had hired a shark. He felt like he had to hire this person, but it just it turned into a disaster.

Mark Hill: 17:30

That's it, isn't it? Once there is a decision on one side or is escalator talked about this, the divorce escalator, once one person's pick that course, the other person is limited in their options. So it's really critical to talk about, we've said it before, how you're going to divorce before you decide who the professionals are, what's your process, and most people don't even think they have a process choice to make early on. And that if we can convey anything from this podcast, I want it to be you have choices,

Shawn Weber: 18:03

you're in control, stay in charge. I had a couple come in a few months ago, and they were just absolutely devastated with how things had been going. They'd spent tons of money with very little to show for it. But they each hired these very strong attorneys, and they were passengers. And they realized they were passengers on this case and their attorneys were making this into a battle that they didn't want to have. And they didn't know how to get off of that divorce escalator and they finally came to my office, how do I get off of this thing? And that was the you're in charge of your decision.

Mark Hill: 18:38

So how did they do that Shawn? How do they get off the escalator,

Shawn Weber: 18:41

Did they get off.

Mark Hill: 18:42

If you've got a couple in those circumstances,

Shawn Weber: 18:45

they did get off? Well, they respectfully called their attorneys and let them go in this case. I said, you know, you're in charge of your attorneys not going to do what you want, then you need a different attorney. You know, and so in this instance, they chose different counsel. I've had similar situations where they call their attorney and say, You know what we want to mediate now. Thank you for all your help. You've given me wonderful advice up till now maybe it wasn't so wonderful, but we're just gonna say this to make the attorney feel good. You've given me advice, very professional. I need to do this my way now. And so I'm going to move you into a consulting role. And you explain to the attorney, we're going to stop all the litigation, I want you to put an end to all of it. I'm not paying for any more litigation. Both of us agree on this. So just contact the other attorney and whatever stipulations agreements, we need to sign to put things on pause, that's fine. And we're going to work with a mediator now. And by the way, if you want to talk to the mediator, you can do that. And I frequently will have meet and confer sessions with attorneys who had been in litigation about how they can kind of unwind the litigation to allow room for them to be able to settle. And most attorneys want cases to settle and so if their clients come to them with that, they'll they'll let that happen. The attorneys you have to watch for the ones that want to hold on to control, and won't let the parties make their own decisions. Those are the ones you got to watch out for. So, you know, the started with, we got our friends that are well intentioned, we have relatives that are well intentioned, we have professional advisors that might be well intentioned. And where it comes down to at the end of the day, isn't it guys that that really the people that need to be in control of the divorce and are going to have to live with the consequences of the divorce? Are the clients, the parties that are engaged in this divorce? And so what do what do you need to do if you're the client and this, you see this coming? You want to get advice? How do you how do you navigate this, this constant barrage of good intentions?

Mark Hill: 20:56

Number one, get information and answer the question that you posed before, what are my values? And I would, there's two questions to ask yourself. What if any kind of relationship do I want with my spouse post divorce? And if you have children, what's the story I want my kids to tell about their parents divorce. And if you ask those questions, it'll kind of drive you towards the process you should choose. And then basically, there are many fine, mediators, neutrals, financial, and people who work in the coaching field helping with divorce from the mental health side, those individuals are are out there. And I would encourage you to speak to them. And the first thing to avoid and I should have said this earlier is before you retain an attorney and give them a check, think for a long time that give a lot of thought to the concept of do I really want to go down this road. Because often what will happen I see is people well, the guy just wanted a $3,000 retainer. And I thought that was okay, that's not bad for a divorce. How far will $3,000 get you in a divorce? Shawn?

Shawn Weber: 22:17

It'll get you to the first hearing. Like maybe a month and a half, maybe if you're lucky.

Mark Hill: 22:23

Right. And now you're on the escalator. So do not retain an attorney until you're totally confident that this is the right person for you.

Scott Weiner: 22:33

I think that you can add a it's almost like you think of attorneys telling clients to give notice about this and that. I think the attorney needs to be put on notice early in the process, that if you cannot orient toward mediating this for me. I don't want to begin with you. And there are attorneys that will say, Oh, no, your situation is much too fraught with this that the other we can't do that we have to, it's like, well, if litigation is my only choice with you, I'm going to need to move on before we start, and I thank you for this consultation and move on. I mean, it's much easier to say no at the beginning.

Mark Hill: 23:20

Yes. And keep your friends out of it to the degree that you can keep your family out of it. They love you. They want you to be cared for and taken care of. But their advice around the aspects of your divorce and the details of it is not where you can get the best benefit.

Scott Weiner: 23:38

Yes, that is so true

Shawn Weber: 23:40

truth, the truth, every case, every case, it's like a fingerprint. They're very unique. Yep, I've never found a cookie cutter that fits everybody the same way. And so just because it worked and Uncle Freddie's divorce, does not mean that that's what's appropriate for your divorce. Or just because it worked in this story that you read on the internet. So just just be very careful about making sure that the advice you're getting is tailored to your situation. And that you listen to that inner compass, because a lot of times it's right. And if you need advice, make sure it's professional advice. People that have been through this and know what they're doing. You can save yourself a lot of heartache and maybe not end up on the road to hell. But on a road just somewhere better.

Mark Hill: 24:34

You know, one thing, Shawn, we had talked about go right to that. Well, we talked about, send us your questions. We'd love to hear what's concerning you. We're getting some downloads of this podcast, and we're fascinated to know who's doing it. And if you have questions, send to them. We'll be happy to answer them on the next podcast.

Shawn Weber: 24:54

For sure. Yeah, make it leave a comment. Give us a good review. Leave a comment. Follow us subs describe us, refer us to your friends and family. If you're in the great chorus, send us to your friends and family. And maybe we can help with your good intentions.

Mark Hill: 25:11

So they're gonna reach you, Shawn. Well,

Shawn Weber: 25:14

the best thing to do is go to my website, Weber dispute resolution.com That's Weber with one B resolution. I'm sorry, Weberdisputeresolution.com. Scott, how you gonna get you?

Scott Weiner: 25:28

Well, I am not a website kind of guy. I am a telephone kind of guy. And I answer my own phone. It is 619-417-5743 psychologist in Solana Beach, California. Mark,

Mark Hill: 25:50

you can reach my company. We're Pacific divorce management, and our website is Pacdivorce.com PAC Dav o rc.com.

Shawn Weber: 26:03

Thanks for listening to another episode of the three Wiseman divorce, money, Psych and law. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe. Leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique. So no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.