A Conversation with Stu Webb: The Grandfather of Collaborative Divorce (Part 1)

We were thrilled that Stu Webb came to join us on the Three Wisemen of Divorce.  The Grandfather of Collaborative Divorce, Stu is probably the original and wisest Wiseman of all! A Zen Buddhist and Jazz Musician, Stu brings characteristics you wouldn't expect in a lawyer.  Stu has mastered the understanding of using love, kindness, and collaboration to bring about better legal outcomes. 

A veteran matrimonial lawyer in 1990, Stu had the audacity to leave litigation to try something new.  He wrote a now-famous letter to a Justice of the Minnesota Supreme Court describing his thinking on a new concept, Collaborative Law, where attorneys would agree to work on a case collaboratively towards settlement and pledging to withdraw from the case if litigation became inevitable.  That letter together with Stu's amazing spirit and shining example sparked a worldwide movement for Collaborative Practice.

Listen to Part 1 of our two-part series.  Tune in next week for Part 2.

The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.

© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.

Transcript

Shawn Weber: 0:03

Welcome to the three wise men of divorce, money, Psych and law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts, financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, psychologist Scott Weiner and attorney Sean Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co parenting, and the difficult decisions, real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you're looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 70 years and divorce and conflict management. We are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co parenting. So Mark, we have a guest this week. It's the great Stu Webb, what can you tell us about Stu Webb?

Mark Hill: 0:59

Well, Stu Webb is an attorney now retired, but he was an attorney in Minneapolis, who, in the very early 1990s, decided he could no longer do traditional family law that he felt he wasn't helping families. And he came up with the concept of collaborative law where two attorneys would basically agree not to go to court. And so the whole movement started with him. And then there are numerous other people, most notably some folks up in Northern California, who added to it and we brought in coaches, mental health professionals. And when I met them, these folks was about early 2000. And they trained me. And they asked me to come on board, as they realize that was an important role to be played by the financial individual, the financial professional. And so that's how I know Stu.

Shawn Weber: 1:50

And you know, this whole podcast is kind of built on what he started this this idea of approaching divorce from the three angles of legal psych, and money, you know, and collaborative practice is, when you have people that sign an agreement that says they're never going to go to court, that's really the hallmark of collaborative, isn't it?

Mark Hill: 2:15

Yeah. And it's not just the individuals, the professionals can't, either. So if you know basically the case, we can't get it solved, then basically, you got to start over with new folks.

Shawn Weber: 2:27

Yeah, and it, it makes as an attorney, from my perspective, as an attorney, it really it changes the way I approach the case, because an adversarial case, I want to posture all the time, right? Because I'm worried about what's gonna happen at court. If I know I'm never going to go to court, I know how to serve this family, I've got to help them find a solution. And it just changes the way I approach it all together. Instead of fighting and posturing. We're looking for solutions.

Mark Hill: 2:53

And all of this came from the concept that Stu came up with 30 years ago,

Shawn Weber: 2:59

where he wrote a letter, right? He wrote a letter to some other professionals in the legal community there in Minnesota, saying maybe we could do this in a different way. And it really did start a movement. So I'm honored that we have him on the on the podcast.

Mark Hill: 3:15

Well, guys, as I said before, Stu is the really the we used to call him the father. But I think he has to be the grandfather. Now, this movement, and I was trying to tell the story about how they started how you woke up one day and said basically, I'm not sure I'm helping families. And was it Ron that you did the first case with how did that workout?

Stu Webb: 3:38

No, Ron was about maybe a couple years later. Gotcha. And he really caught fire when we had an interdisciplinary, one in Minneapolis in 2000. And then Ron just got, you know, got the bug. Yeah, he got Jesus, I think

Shawn Weber: 4:00

you saved him.

Stu Webb: 4:01

So have you guys doing something right now? Scott, I think you're your lawyer, but not practicing that. Right?

Scott Weiner: 4:08

Correct. I'm a psychologist, primarily. I'm, you know, I'm inactive in the bar. But I do. Uh, my connection to collaborative work is essentially through Shawn, who I was so curious about because when I took the training, here's this Mormon guy who bought all the liquor and wine for the party at the end, and I had to know who the hell this guy was, right. So we, we met and

Stu Webb: 4:36

he's the guy to know, he's the guy to know.

Shawn Weber: 4:38

They made me stand up to thank me for all the booze I bought.

Scott Weiner: 4:43

Yeah, well, this is really rare. So So I became involved in doing that I've been doing, I came out of communications and group dynamics before even psychology so mediation, understanding role taking The roles that emerge in leaderless groups, things like that. Were sort of my home turf. I wound up in psychology. But being involved in mediating and working through conflict in groups is really my home turf. And so that's how I wound up in involved in collaborative and it's utterly fascinating.

Shawn Weber: 5:21

Scott's a really talented coach. I really love it when he's on a case.

Stu Webb: 5:26

And so you guys are working together? Yes. Oh, wonderful. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, there is this whole that team concept is just so great. And it's interesting. One of the financial people from California, just sent me a 25 page essay that one of the Oh, Mark, you know, the name but I Kathy's Eagle Academy, they will something. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was so great to talk about the second paradigm shift, I'd never heard of that particular kind of an intermediate paradigm shift. And that is paradigm shift was written by the, by the psychologist by, you know, the coach, and saying that the second paradigm shift is that the lawyers have to learn that they're not king shit.

Mark Hill: 6:31

That is, I don't know why you need 25 Pages for that I could have paraphrased it accurately.

Scott Weiner: 6:37

I thought he handled it pretty well in about in one sentence there. That's about

Shawn Weber: 6:41

right. Yeah. Well, you know, it's hard for us

Stu Webb: 6:45

That's right. All right. Dan, we started with lawyers to collaborative law was just lawyer, you know, early on. So it became we were the ones and these other people were just sort of accessories. You know, the financial person was Oh, yeah.

Mark Hill: 7:04

We use financials. Yeah.

Stu Webb: 7:08

Well, actually, you know, I came so much to appreciate the, the team and particularly the financial person, because we used to just turn the turn the couple over to the financial people before we hardly ever talked to him, you know, you put all that stuff together, and then come back, and we'll see what we'll do what we can do.

Mark Hill: 7:29

That's how Shawn works with me. It's like, I go toe to Mark

Shawn Weber: 7:32

Yeah, I get out of Mark's way. And then and then and the paradigm shift for the attorneys, you're right is is giving up the control. Like you can always tell an attorney that hasn't quite made the shift because they keep wanting to look into Dropbox.

Stu Webb: 7:46

Exactly.

Shawn Weber: 7:47

You can just leave it alone for a little bit. Let Mark do his work. And then we can look at it.

Stu Webb: 7:51

And then Scott, you were talking about I'm the other way around. I was a lawyer but my really my really have occasion was called. Yeah, that was my avocation. I'm always studying, studying that study now. So. But what's so important for me now in the team, I keep preaching preaching this because I'm saying the ultimate paradigm shift for me in the team is that the team holds their highest space. That's why we're while we're doing the, the coaches, because there's more used to doing that are the ones that really are basic responsible for kind of helping the team stay on that higher plane. And this lawyers from a litigation standpoint, we tend to get down into the energy of the client.

Mark Hill: 8:51

Yes, not always helpful. This is.

Scott Weiner: 8:54

So we it's funny, we have a we have a new case that's about to begin, in which one of the one of the two parties is saying he doesn't really need a coach because he took some psychology and Oh.

Stu Webb: 9:12

That's like having a client, a lawyer for a client. Oh.

Scott Weiner: 9:19

Anyway,

Shawn Weber: 9:20

I always joke I'm not a psychologist, but I play one on TV.

Mark Hill: 9:25

And we always say the more that people resist a coach, the more potentially they need one.

Scott Weiner: 9:30

There's that. There's that that's true of all therapy, actually.

Shawn Weber: 9:33

So you know, our audience is people that don't know this work, lay people. You know, so how would we describe collaborative practice to the lay person?

Stu Webb: 9:44

It depends on? I don't know, I always say people say they don't have any cases tell me that they don't really understand and own Collaborative Law or Collaborative Practice. because if you own it, and you then you meet every client that comes in, you're telling them all their options. But you're also telling them the one that you like the best. That's true. No, I, I always thought 90% of the people that would come through my offices, you know, investigating would opt for a collaborative, we could work it out with everybody. And so I always figured that they just don't own it. So they, they Well, this is one of the things we do. I don't know, maybe maybe this would work for you. Maybe it wouldn't, you know, the client freaks out and runs, runs dealer. litigator?

Shawn Weber: 10:45

You gotta believe it. You got to own it. That's I agree with that. Yeah,

Mark Hill: 10:48

I think that's very true.

Stu Webb: 10:51

I don't know if you've ever heard my old story. But the one the client comes in to see the lawyer and says the What's two plus two? Client, called the lawyer pulls his shades, shuts the door and says, What do you want it to be?

Mark Hill: 11:15

Yeah, you've got to, you've got to be committed to it, you've got to believe in it. I mean, Shawn won't go to court anymore. I won't go to court anymore. I mean, we've just drawn that line will only work in alternative dispute resolution mediation, and basically, I only do co mediation with with a lawyer. Oh, I can't get collaborative solved. You know,

Stu Webb: 11:36

when you come to the, to the conflict with the contact with a particular client, you're coming from that feeling? You know, the feeling of collaboration? Mm hmm. And that translates it's amazing. You know, we don't know how much I think Scott probably is more up for this than I, but it's like, there is a transmission that comes from higher feelings. That gets transferred. And people are attracted to that. So when I think that's so true, their office and you're they're feeling that warmth, and they're feeling that confidence, and they're feeling that I call it love, you know, and

Shawn Weber: 12:26

they pick it up. That's so true. You know, the spirit that you're working with, I always joke with people that I'm a dolphin instead of a shark. Yeah. And I have this little dolphin. I can give this to my clients when we don't have Coronavirus. I can give this to people. That's kind of our little spirit animal. Right? But just the kind of the spirit of the dolphin this concept of you know, it does, there is a spiritual kind of, yeah, energy to this, isn't there? Oh, yeah.

Mark Hill: 12:53

And when you work as a neutral as I do, I'm just so overwhelmingly conscious all the time of the fact that if I'm talking to one, I've got to think about what my responsibility is to the other. So that I am truly, as much as one can never be non aligned, you know.

Shawn Weber: 13:13

And that's a fascinating paradigm shift for the attorney is because I have my client when I'm a Collaborative attorney, but I'm also very concerned about the other party.

Stu Webb: 13:22

That's true. That's right,

Shawn Weber: 13:23

you know, when you don't get that in litigation.

Stu Webb: 13:26

So what? Eva, you're, you're, you've got a client, but you've also got when you have that feeling, I here's what I call it, how I describe the feeling. I just came to me the other day, you know, you watch a movie. And the movie has a soundtrack of music. You know, and a lot of times I don't hear the music till I see the credits. Oh, I do. I didn't know they played that one, you know, this kind of thing. But that the feeling of regard and respect and perhaps love whatever Agha P kind of thing is sort of like a soundtrack of feeling that we have and we that we bring to the arena. And so that's part of what I call, that's the ultimate paradigm shifts to the is the higher we can hold. You can do be doing all your other stuff, you know, it's just the background. And the client start picking that up. You know, telling them anything about it, they just start sensing. And if things are going well. Then they start rising up in their feelings and they start getting a little different view of it. And all of a sudden you find the clients or your clients are kind of arguing against themselves. I had a case one time where I was representing the husband we were taught we were Both came along and we're working on alimony. And then then we said, Well, the question is what? When does when does alimony and for instance to the men when somebody gets married, and wife gets married? My husband the guy says, Well, I don't think it should I see. And wife wife says, Well, I think it should. So we're, we're there, these two lawyers.

Scott Weiner: 15:29

Perfect.

Mark Hill: 15:31

But that is absolutely the spirit that we're looking for.

Shawn Weber: 15:34

You know, it's amazing how things will fall into place when people just change the way they look at it.

Stu Webb: 15:39

Yeah,

Shawn Weber: 15:40

that paradigm shift you're talking about?

Stu Webb: 15:43

Well, I'm thinking of it right now, during the pandemic. You know, when you take the president of the NFL, who has been crucifying this quarterback for about five years? Yep. And who all those incidences, gee, nice guy, I think that I hire him, you know,

Mark Hill: 16:02

really give him five years of his career back.

Stu Webb: 16:05

Now, all of a sudden, there's a different view, you know, yeah, like a 180 shift. And that's kind of part of what happened. And one of the things about, I've been talking to teams about, let's say, you've got a team and somebody on the team is kind of being off, you know, the kind of getting caught up with what's going on. We've sort of got a signal. So you mix up a signal, kind of, like, Remember the old saying, yeah. Are you kind of go like that? Oh, yeah, pull off here.

Shawn Weber: 16:44

I sometimes I wish we had a gong like the gong show.

Mark Hill: 16:51

As the neutral my ultimate Zinger, is to look quizzical and say, You're not this is not feeling very collaborative. Watch the body language change in the room to say that. I haven't used it very often, but a couple of times I have,

Stu Webb: 17:04

well, no bad fats can also be one of those. One of those stingers, like you're not being very collaborative, you know, it's like, whoops,

Mark Hill: 17:15

I really you screwed up the other way. Yeah, I can do. I never, it's always when there's you,

Stu Webb: 17:23

O I'm collaborative, but you're not.

Shawn Weber: 17:27

I know, you are. What am I? Yeah. I like this one, you go into somebody in an attorney has made a very strong case, you know, posturing case, and you turn to the client. So you know, your attorney did a very good job of explaining that and posturing for what would it be like if you were in front of a judge in litigation, but what would you like to do today? And oftentimes, they're really kind of relieved that they can actually have control of their own lives.

Stu Webb: 18:00

Yeah. I, I had, what in here at Twin Cities, we have this really, really master mediator. And he became a collaborative lawyer. And I had a case with him. And we just started that. And he came in with a second, second round, with a plan all laid out. Everything valued, what a person should get, you know, and I'm sitting there like, I couldn't even do this, you know. I needed the gong very badly.

Shawn Weber: 18:44

Oh, so what did he do? I mean, what how did

Stu Webb: 18:46

it did really? Well? It was awful. Just awful. Yeah.

Shawn Weber: 18:50

Because the attorney thought they knew better than the client. Oh, or they just kind of planned it.

Stu Webb: 18:55

Or he just say this is the way it this is where it should be, you know.

Shawn Weber: 18:59

So, you know, people are listening to this. And they're thinking, I don't understand this talk of attorneys being Collaborative and getting along and being, you know, having all this we're gonna be friends stuff. A lot of people feel like their attorneys need to be enemies. I mean, what would you say to somebody like that? Like they want to, I think you I think you get along too well, with opposing counsel.

Mark Hill: 19:19

I had that literally happen Stu two weeks ago, a client called me up and said, I talked to my brother who's all my, I don't know, cousin who's a judge in New York, and he told me, you don't want attorneys who are friends and like each other.

Shawn Weber: 19:36

Yeah, well, that was that was the case we're on and they're like, you know, this person told me. I need somebody that hates you.

Stu Webb: 19:47

Well, you know, that's the old stuff the old way. And David. David, from Boston, David Hoffman. Yeah, did a wonderful article where he researched all all this stuff about what was the relationship between the two parties, the two clients, the two professionals. And all the research showed that the results were so much better. Sure, working with with a trust, and there was with the other way. And they there's this thing called the prisoner's dilemma, or something. Yes,

Scott Weiner: 20:27

yes. Yes. Red and Black game? Yeah, yeah.

Stu Webb: 20:31

And some of those tests show that, you know, you're certainly true with experience worth with storage, we tell, you know, when all of a sudden, somebody met, does that 180 shift, you know, all of a sudden, they're looking at things differently. Or, you know, that technical thing is, you know, people that hardly speaking each other and the first time they meet, and by the second time, they're saying, Yeah, where are those quick think where is that quitclaim deed we need, you know, that in this, really start talking each other. And pretty soon they say, you know, we can work out some of this little stuff, you know, between between now and the next time, we start lightening up and had a big conversation recently on IACP with the role of the law.

Mark Hill: 21:27

And it was void. The lawyers love jumping in on that one Stu. Yeah, that was a long conversation.

Stu Webb: 21:33

And some people, you know, are saying, well, the law is that that's what, that's all you got to do it, which is, which is unbelievable. Unless some default thing you can't do anything about, you know, but otherwise, there's a way to lightening up that law. So yeah, you can, you can do it that way. But you can do it this way, too. You can do all kinds of things, you know, the law is just there. It's not. It's not the foundation that we're going in with, you know, but people have a different kind of idea. But

Shawn Weber: 22:07

somebody asked us that the other day mark on a case, we were like, what do we have to do here? I'm like, you don't have to do? What do you want to do? What you know, I want you to be in charge. Yeah, yeah. Some legislator in Sacramento, what do you want to do for your family?

Stu Webb: 22:23

And that laying out the goals at the beginning is really interesting. Yes, they just cover that they really have the same goals. They just have little different ideas of what the goal, what's the details of the goal? You know?

Shawn Weber: 22:38

Absolutely. I mean, that's one of the techniques I employ a lot, I call it the big rocks, you know, just one of these no brainer things that you completely agree on there. You know, like, we want your we want our children to be healthy. I don't know anybody that says they want their children to be. You start there, you know, and you can build that foundation. I call it the big rocks, you know, this foundation that you can work off these goals that they can become part of their mission statement. Yeah.

Stu Webb: 23:04

I'm interested in seeing how people are up just I'm not doing that anymore. What how people are handling, working with the zoom?

Shawn Weber: 23:14

Huh. You know, CP Cal, Collaborative Practice California, we're doing a weekly webinar talking about this issue. And we're having a town hall and it's actually I'm finding zoom in some ways a superior?

Stu Webb: 23:30

Yeah, one of the things I found is that, that in zoom years, there's a little space between you and the other person. And that's very helpful for the lawyer. Yeah, we tend to get caught up with the, with the emotions of the client. On the other hand, I have a conversation with the coaches. And some of the coaches say it's after work harder on the Zoom, because they, they miss the they miss the action of watching what's going on with the clients verbally. And, and facially and body language and this kind of stuff, you know, kind of intuitively takes that in. Now they have kind of have that short, so it's harder for them to go work than it was before. It's interesting. I

Scott Weiner: 24:23

don't entirely agree with that. I think that it's easier to it's so easy to step up meeting on Zoom, and people have much more freedom to do that. That's, that's very nice. But I think that it's probably harder for the client to experience. You know, what I what I can get, they don't they don't get to see when I do that they don't get to, they don't get to hear it and feel it right in person. And I think that's a lot of What, you know, therapists do that? Good ones do that that's like we, you know? Yeah. I mean, I, I know, I know a little bit apocryphally, from what Shawn and, and Mark have said about you, all good therapists are Buddhists, you know, they were all good therapists are Buddhists, we, you know, we do try to send some peace to these people in the course of this, what is, you know, purportedly and rationally, a very turbulent, hard time, it's a time of suffering. People are attached to their positions, and they're attached there, you know, and to, to help them detach and see the bigger world of their life that's coming is not it. physical presence helps with that.

Stu Webb: 25:51

And also, you know, what comes to mind when you say that is that the site has some moments of some particular situations where there's been silence. Deep, deep, deep silence. And the lawyers have resisted jumping in with with their words, and the silence deepens and deepens and deepen. And finally, one of the parties as well, I may be crazy, but I'd be willing to do such and such. It's something you could never possibly the other attorney could cost. Never say, why don't you do such? Any come up with some idea, and you'll everybody looks at it and says, Geez, that might work.

Shawn Weber: 26:44

These are my favorite moments. Yeah. Silence happened, that is a hard thing for practitioners to do. Shut the hell up and let the magic happen. You know,

Mark Hill: 26:58

back when I started for EF Hutton, back in 1982, they sent me on a sales course. And it was a guy from IBM who came in and he said, Okay, he says, Once you ask for the order, you shut the hell up. Because the first person to speak loses. And and, and he said, I once sat there for 10 minutes waiting for the guy to answer. And guess what, I broke the silence and he didn't buy. He said, he must have read the same book as me. But you're right. In that regard, if you can allow the silence to happen and not become come so uncomfortable, which I have a problem with, I want to jump in and fix it. So I have to guard in that in myself. And they're paying me for my time, and I should be here and available. And, and but at the same time, I think about when I'm doing public speaking, if I've got people talking at the back, I'll just shut up. I'll just go completely quiet. And you know what, people start looking around and people in the back realize what's going on. And I'll just say thank you, and then I'll continue no rudeness about it. It's just I Shut up, you know, that silence makes everybody uncomfortable. And then they want to fix it. And I see that. And that's how you get people to shut up.

Stu Webb: 28:17

We have a we have a zoom here at our apartment building. And we have about 20 people show up and I started, I was doing the hosting of it. And it was terrible to have a lawyer like me hosting like that, because I'm filling up every little possible silence I'm jumping in, you know, my wife politely says, You think maybe she should do it. Because she just sits there and waits for somebody to show up with something. You know, let me start going in the conversation. You know, she just sits there and smiles.

Shawn Weber: 28:57

Well, Mark, I think that's all the time we have today. Yeah,

Mark Hill: 29:01

we really have kind of drilled down a little bit with Stu here. But the good news is that we have enough material here. So tune in next week to hear the second episode of the three wise men talking to the man that created Collaborative, the man who's responsible for 1000s and 1000s of people throughout the world, using this method to settle disputes.

Shawn Weber: 29:25

So let me ask you, Mark, if somebody wanted to contact you to be a financial specialist on a collaborative divorce, what would they do?

Mark Hill: 29:34

They would go to my website. My company is Pacific divorce management, and the website is PAC divorce.com PAC di vi o rc.com.

Shawn Weber: 29:45

Okay, well, if you want to get a hold of me, Sean Weber, to be your collaborative divorce attorney, or for any of your dispute resolution needs, go to Weber dispute resolution.com That's Weber with one B Weber dispute resolution.com and Scott, how would they get ahold of you? If they needed a coach?

Scott Weiner: 30:07

They would call me. That's what they would do. And they would call me at 619-417-5743. I'm Dr. Scott Weiner, and they could call me.

Shawn Weber: 30:20

Thanks for listening to another episode of the three Wiseman of divorce, money, Psych, and law. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe. Leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique. So no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.