Two topics this week. First, what is the best approach to talking to your kids about the breakup? We talk about how to get through that difficult conversation. Next, and surprisingly related, we talk about how to juggle the holidays during and after the divorce. Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, talk it out.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
Two topics this week. First, what is the best approach to talking to your kids about the breakup? We talk about how to get through that difficult conversation. Next, and surprisingly related, we talk about how to juggle the holidays during and after the divorce. Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, talk it out.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
Welcome to the three wise men of divorce, money, Psych and law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts, financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, psychologist Scott Weiner and attorney Shawn Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co parenting, and the difficult decisions, real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you're looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 70 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation, and co parenting.
Mark Hill:Welcome. Welcome to the wise men of divorce with Scott Weiner, Shawn Weber and me Mark Hill, the holidays are coming up. And that's usually a time for joy and excitement. But we also snow that it has other emotions associated with it, like fear and apprehension, especially when there may be a divorce in the offing. So how will you deal with that? And how do you deal with the children's questions around that? That's one of the topics we're going to talk about today. The other thing we'd like to chat about is how do you tell the children that you're going to be getting a divorce? And how do you explain to the children in an appropriate perhaps age appropriate way? How this may or may not affect them? Finances, living arrangements, so on and so forth?
Shawn Weber:That's a lot to talk about, isn't it? It is indeed.
Scott Weiner:We can cover that.
Mark Hill:We can do it.
Scott Weiner:We can do it.
Shawn Weber:Well, I mean, okay, so Thanksgiving is right around the corner. Turkey Day, and we don't mean your ex husband? Or maybe you do it or maybe you do. Yeah.
Mark Hill:And it's gonna be different this year.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. I mean, if you're just getting divorced, it's going to be different if you've already been divorced. You know, maybe, maybe it hasn't been so good. I mean, a lot of times when it's really fresh, people really struggle to be able to do holidays together. But some people do
Scott Weiner:last year. Last year, I cooked for 27 people this year. I think I'm cooking for three.
Mark Hill:Yeah. And so COVID has an impact, too. That's yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, it certainly drags it in because people have different rules now applying to themselves. And that can create discomfort with other people, other participants in the dining table.
Shawn Weber:You know, what I've found for most of my clients is the most discomfort is between the inlaws and the the couple, you know, maybe the couple, the now divorced couple is okay with doing Thanksgiving together, but then mother in law doesn't feel good about it. You know, so So how do you, you know, how do you thread that needle in a way that the kids don't pick up on conflicts? And everybody kind of survives that holiday without being a debacle?
Scott Weiner:We, you know, we we've talked so many times, we've said so many times that the kids know, people say oh, the kids don't know, the kids don't know, the kids know, they know, know, the kids know so much more than we give them credit for they may not have a perfect verbal framework to put it in. They may not know how to describe it. But, you know, they know that things have been feeling. Not wonderful, you know,
Mark Hill:reminds me of a time when I had this couple who just were terrified of telling the children, and they had kids who were I think in their early teens. So you know, so eventually we get help them with a script, what they're going to talk about, they get about, you know, three or four sentences into it. After they've been upset, kind of get a divorce. The older child who I think was 14 says, well, we've just been waiting for this. And we wondered what took you guys so long?
Shawn Weber:You know, and that's the story you hear over and over again. Yep. Yep. I've heard adult children say they rather have been from a broken home than in one. Yeah, very true. Yes. So a lot of times the kids have picked up that there's conflict. I mean, they're feeling your conflict. Whether you realize it or not, they're just feeling that energy in the home.
Scott Weiner:Well, I just did an intake with a couple who one of the complaints by one of the members Is that the other person, you know, can will follow this person around in the house and persist in the arguments right in front of the children. Now, these children are quite young, but these kids, they may not know what's going on, but they know that it doesn't feel good. Right? So I mean, to me, this, in a way dictates the entry into the discussion. You know, you know, mom, and I, you know, dad, and I, you know, you know that things get pretty loud around here sometimes, and we don't like it, we think you don't like it either. And we've decided that we're going to change that to make it a little bit better, you know, but, you know, one of the things that's going to happen is you're going to be living in two houses, not one, sometime in the near future. You get an extra house, but you don't get mom and dad in the house fighting at the same time. And, you know, there will be times when kids will say something, kids will break into tears and say, do you mean getting divorced? But I would say that that's not as common as kind of a I don't know, what I hear is, there's almost like a resigned expression of a depression in a way that hits the kids. It's kind of like, God, they don't say it like this, but the look on the face. It's almost like they feel like they've failed. Oh, it's our fault. We hear that a lot.
Shawn Weber:But the kids, the kids thinking it's their fault. Oh, yeah.
Mark Hill:Especially if the children have been a focus of conflict between the couple that enhances that feeling, because they fight over. You know, one parent is more easygoing, when it comes to things and one is more strict rules based and that they fight about that. And of course, the kids, what are the kids do? Well, the one that's easiest, and that, in a way fuels the fire,
Shawn Weber:and they really do internalize that battle. And that's why we're always we always tell people in the courts push for this. You got to you've got to shield your kids from the conflict. So So I mean, Scott, what kind of damage does that do to kids, when they hear negative speaking of the other parent by one of the, one of the parents,
Scott Weiner:there's another part of the structure that this brings to my mind, which is then in most families, when there's more than one kid, it is so common, consciously or unconsciously, it's almost like, Well, mom owns Freddy. But daddy owns Susie, you know, and it's like, the connection from one kid to the next is very different. And these, these, these bring about a form of allegiance to that one parent, and conversely, a form of guilt toward the other one, there's, you know, and you just you, as you just both said something to with that. The kids feel like it's their responsibility. And yeah, they do that they do that they'll think, well, if I had only been nicer, you know, when Daddy said I couldn't play soccer, you know, this might not be happening, you know? And if I'd only if I only said, Yes, it was my fault when I got in trouble with with, you know, Johnny at school, maybe wouldn't the mom and dad are fighting about that? You know, maybe. And the truth, of course, is that I don't know if I ever heard of a situation where the children actually had anything to do with causing a divorce? I don't think so.
Shawn Weber:The kids don't cause the divorce. I mean, I have seen cases where you have like, I've seen a lot of these, a child has profound special needs. And, you know, maybe severely autistic or something like that. And that does sometimes provide so much stress to the relationship that people don't survive it. I've seen that happen.
Mark Hill:And I've seen it where a child is acting out to an incredible degree. Drugs, alcohol, trouble with the law, trouble at school, and the parents take a very different position around that and that exacerbates a marital situation.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so Scott, we're having this conversation with the kids then. And we're saying alright, Susie, what do you Susie and Freddie is that who
Scott Weiner:they are? That's interchangeable. How?
Shawn Weber:To what extent is preparation for that meeting help?
Scott Weiner:Well, it at least is I would caption it tremendously. I think that if but as we imagine many divorcing couples, can you imagine them preparing for this discussion?
Mark Hill:Yes, I can, but not in a positive way. I guess I know them will want to slant it so that they look like the good guy. Because it's always the other, you know, what's false that the divorce is occurring?
Shawn Weber:So then how do you slant it? So you're saying, We're the parents, our natural inclination is to protect ourselves, right? And I don't want to look good. I want to I want to look like I'm the good guy. That's kind of a natural inclination. But what's the better way to the way to what I've
Mark Hill:always told clients, and this is not my specialty.
Shawn Weber:So you know, but you've seen enough divorces. Yeah, you
Mark Hill:could accuse me of the unauthorized practice of psychology if you want. I'll accept that one. But what I found is that if you focus on what the child's important issues are, and start from that standpoint, it makes it easier to craft a statement or conversate, or start a conversation around it. So what are the kids concerned about? Are they going to be okay? If they're of a certain age, are they going to be able to stay with their friends? What is it going to mean to them? Are they going to be able to stay in the same school? Are they going to be having the same sort of lifestyle? Can they still be on the traveling cheerleading squad? Whatever is their important issue? And it doesn't mean you have to answer yes to all those questions. But that's what they're going to want to know.
Scott Weiner:Yeah, even if even if you say to the child, you know, they asked those things. We're not sure how every little we're not sure every detail is going to play out. We're not sure we haven't worked that part out yet. But mom and I, or dad and I are going to do everything we can to be sure that you're okay, that you're comfortable, that life changes, some, but not in a way that's going to hurt anybody, we're going to take care of you. And we're still both there for you. It's like that, that needs to be repeated, repeated, repeated and then acted on. I mean, as both of you know, many times post divorce, things don't go sunny things. You know, we've all wound up dealing with cases where people during handoff have for visitation where there's problems. It's like oh my god, on and on and on. Some people won't give up the battle.
Mark Hill:Right. And the trouble is, once the money's done, the only thing left to fight about is the poor child or the children. Because once you've got a financial settlement, you can't fight about that anymore. So what's left is just the only point of contact between you two will be your child
Shawn Weber:be the children and you know, a lot of times people are afraid of will do we have to tell the kids about why we're getting a divorce. You know, what do we have to? Like, I don't think it's probably a useful conversation to say, well, Freddie and Susie, I want you to know that we're getting divorced, because your your father is a complete scumbag and is sleeping with the neighbor. Right? I don't think that's a very good conversation or, you know, we're having, we're getting divorced, because your mother has become very cold. And I have felt the need to go elsewhere for my sexual gratification. Not a good conversation. But but more, you know, keeping the adult conversation adult. And really all these kids need to know is if they've got two parents that love them very much. And the marriage is changing, you know, the family is changing, because mom and dad's roles are going to be a little different. But they still love you both.
Scott Weiner:The kids will ask why though? Why separately, especially to the parent who is their ally? And
Shawn Weber:so what's a good answer? Well,
Scott Weiner:if we can prevail upon those parents, and we do try in our work, as I know you guys do, too, we try to tell them that it really doesn't matter as much that you think your ex is a this or that or the other or that, you know, he's, you know, chasing skirts with the neighbors or that she's, you know, hanging out and wherever doing what she's doing. But you know, sometimes the kids will almost try to unearth those things.
Mark Hill:So, would it be possible able to put it in terms, Scott of how the child would would think about this. And explain it in terms of well, you know, remember back when you were in second grade, you had that great friend of yours, Janie. And then you guys kind of had a falling out, and you don't really hang out that much anymore. Do you remember that? Well, that sometimes happens to a mommy and a daddy when they're in a marriage. And so to put it in that context, is that helpful? Or is that just not?
Scott Weiner:For a certain age kid, not only is that helpful, it's downright elegant. It's a wonderful thing to do that, to frame that in terms of something that the children can understand. I'm speaking more of the, you know, like the teenager, right? You know, who was, you know, one kid might be aligned with mom, one kid might be aligned with that, and it's gonna be so tempting for those parents to, you know, basically align in that kind of almost fraternal way. With that with that kid, and it happens all the time.
Mark Hill:Yeah. And I think back to when my kids were teenagers, how inherently skeptical they were every word that came out of the parents matters. Anyway, yeah, exactly. So
Shawn Weber:I mean, that's true. I mean, that's, that's natural. They're there. They're launching, they're trying to find out who they are. And so they're not they're going to give their parents a good healthy dose of skepticism, you know, but, you know, when you
Scott Weiner:they can't be skeptical. When mom and dad say, you know, I, between themselves, they say, you know, I can't stand you in the way you're carrying on with, you know, Joe Blow at the you know, I hate your guts for that, but it tell you what, with with with, you know, with Johnny and or Freddie and Susie or whoever the hell they are, you know, as much as I can't stand it, I'm going to back you up. And I want you to do the same for me. So it's like with the kids. It's like, you know, when, you know, what, why, why? Why are you and daddy doing this? Where your mommy doing this? Honey, you've watched us not get along. Like cats and dogs. You've watched us for a period of time. It's like, you know, yeah, we're doing this, because we want to have a more peaceful life ourselves. But we're still all there for you. Yeah, yes, I understand. It's going to be a little different. But there's nothing to be ashamed of. And it's not going to change as much as you think.
Mark Hill:So would it be helpful to ask the question, how does it feel for you guys, when mommy and daddy have big fights in the house?
Scott Weiner:You can do that?
Mark Hill:Because then Well, I can't imagine any child that would say, I love it when you guys
Shawn Weber:fight. It's awesome. Let's pop some popcorn. Yeah, really?
Mark Hill:I'm filming it and putting it on YouTube.
Shawn Weber:They don't like that.
Mark Hill:Exactly. So if you could feed off of that and say, Well, that's one of the reasons we think it's not smart for us to stay together.
Scott Weiner:There's that there's, there's the marriages that go cold to where the kids have no clue. Right? Which they can't really do that. But it's like, you know, you have to be able to make the claim of, we're doing this, we're doing this, because we think it's best for everybody, including for you. You know, and we know that there will be changes and changes heart for all, you know, all of us. None of us likes that. But you're gonna be okay. You'll see.
Shawn Weber:So, you know, go ahead, this
Mark Hill:one sentence to add to that, and we're gonna make you and your welfare, the focus. If you could just say that to them in a way that age appropriate, they can understand. I think that can tell the take the valence down.
Shawn Weber:It's true. It's true. Now. Okay. So let's get into the real world people. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I mean, it's very nice to talk about how we're all going to get along and kumbaya and isn't that great? But what if you're married to a terrorist? Who is going to tell the kids things and is going to try to turn the children against you? What do you do with that person when you're talking to the kids about the divorce? Okay.
Scott Weiner:You acknowledge it? I know mommy says that I'm, you know, the worst thing that ever happened, but I'm really not. I know she's mad at me. I know she's really mad at me. But we're going to all be okay. And mommy will be too.
Shawn Weber:Yep. But Mommy said that you were doing it with the neighbor.
Mark Hill:Well, but Mommy gets really angry with daddy. And I think you've seen that. And when mommy gets angry, she says all sorts of things. And, you know, I don't agree with all those things she says, and you know, as you get older, perhaps you'll understand a little more. But right now, all you need to understand is that mommy and daddy are gonna make you the focus and make sure that you guys are okay. I think if you keep bringing it back to that the reassurance it can, you know, make not make it right, but make it better make it tolerable.
Shawn Weber:I guess what I wanted to do best it
Scott Weiner:can be I mean, really, yeah. Shawn's premise is that if you're married, what if you're married to a terrorist? And it's like, well, you know, I mean,
Shawn Weber:I mean, they're gonna do what they do. Yeah. I mean, and I think, you know, I've had so many clients, I really empathize with this, because I'm always telling people take the higher road, don't drag your children into this dispute. They don't need to know all that stuff. But you don't understand. He's telling them every night, how horrible I am. And I have to say something to defend myself. And I always just say to me, you know, what, you were right to keep take the high road. Good for you keep taking the high road, because what will happen eventually, is your children will see. Yeah, you know, children. One thing we know is that when you have two, you know, parents and one is more is profoundly dysfunctional. The other one isn't just your being you. And the children developing their own relationship with both of you. They're going to see what's really going on here. Most of the time, now, you do have these situations of like, you have these
Scott Weiner:alienation gravitate toward the healthier adult anyway.
Shawn Weber:Well, except when you have like a profound alienation situation, and then they don't, because the they feel less secure in the relationship with the crazier parent. Right? Yes. So what do you do in that situation?
Mark Hill:Oh, Lord, you get lots of therapy, I would imagine.
Shawn Weber:Well, honestly, I do tell my clients as you know, you might want to consider a divorce. But then the other thing is, yeah,
Mark Hill:that's very true. I will always say, and that's why you're divorcing him.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. But it doesn't change the fact that they feel insecure in their relationship with their child, because this person is taking every opportunity to poison that relationship. Yeah. And so I always just tell people, you know, you said it, Scott, get lots of therapy, get the kids into therapy, so they can have the tools to defend themselves when they're put in these situations.
Scott Weiner:Sean, do the legal, the legal statements about how you are not to disparage the other parent? Did they have any teeth at all? Ever?
Shawn Weber:Yeah, I've seen them have teeth. If a judge figures it out that it's happening, the judge tends to punish the person that's behaving badly. But a lot of times, it's you know, there's no custody police. Yeah, it's not like big brothers going over to your ex spouses house, to listen to what you're saying, you know, or what the other person is saying. So there's only so much that can be done. And I always think, the most important strategy number one, have those prohibitions in place, that we're not going to speak ill of the other parent in the presence of the children. But then, at the same time, just have a strategy of taking the high road of being the good example. Two wrongs don't make a right. So when you hear, you know, Jr, comes home and says, Well, Dad says that you've been sleeping with the mailman. You can just respond and say, Well, you know, not everything your dad says is entirely correct about these things I want you to know, especially when they get to be older, and they're teenagers, I think it's very appropriate to say I want you to know that I have made a choice to really take the high road in this case, you know, in our in our divorce, and I just don't want to speak ill of your father. I'm just not going to do it, no matter what he says about me. But I want you to know that I love you very much. And let the kid the kibble sorted out. I'm sorry, Scott. I talked over you.
Scott Weiner:No, no, I talked over you. And it's like, no, I don't carry on with the mailman. He's very nice. But I don't know.
Shawn Weber:He's just a friend. I don't like him that way.
Mark Hill:But what if you do or what if it's true again? Everyone's my everybody's got their their litany of complaints in a divorce. It's seldom on one side or the complaints are on one side. So the temptation is, well, if she's gonna say that about me, guess what? I got my list here and I can go through it and if she's gonna say AE, I've got B, C, D, and E ready to go. And that's the danger.
Shawn Weber:Right? And it's interesting how these these two topics, what are we going to do in holidays? And what are we going to tell the kids? How closely related they are? Yeah. Excuse me. So I mean, now we're talking about Thanksgiving. And where is Thanksgiving going to happen? And how do we tell the kids what's going to happen at Thanksgiving? So if you're among the lucky, what do you think 10% That can actually get through Thanksgiving without it turning into World War Three with your ex spouse. Great, do it the kids will be grateful that you tried to keep your family a family even though mommy and daddy aren't married anymore aren't going to be married anymore. But if you're like most people,
Scott Weiner:yes.
Shawn Weber:A healthy dose of reality is important. You know, am maybe a self inventory, am I going to be able to control my behavior? When that person is there? And says this and says that right? What's going to happen to me? Am I going to be able to get through that meal? without it turning into a crap storm? Because the kids, the kids will be harmed by the conflict, don't you agree? Right. So so we can either ruin Thanksgiving. Or we can choose to have separate Thanksgivings in the world won't end.
Mark Hill:Let me jump in, I see an opportunity in 2020. Thanksgiving can be different, and no one's gonna think it's weird because of the current pandemic we're in. So maybe there's an out for you.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, we're gonna keep it small this year.
Mark Hill:Yeah, exactly. You can understand why. It's the pandemic.
Shawn Weber:Exactly. But I mean, it can also be, you know, I mentioned this. I mentioned this at the beginning of the podcast, and that was, you know, usually, I find that the biggest problem are third parties, you know, the Greek chorus coming in, they're really making it crazy for the guests at the table at the table, you know, and it's natural for your mother in law to lash out at you, because you might have done something that upset her daughter, you know, and Mama Bear is going to come in and protect her little girl. You know, I'm just using that as an example. Yeah, so So I mean, that that can be even if you the two of you get along great. If the in laws are problem, you have to be careful about that. So maybe you either maybe you take the COVID opportunity and say we know we're gonna have a small Thanksgiving and we're not going to invite extended family because we don't want to kill them with COVID.
Mark Hill:Okay, but that's fine for Thanksgiving, but we got Christmas coming up. So what do you do in a case like this that I have going on right now?
Scott Weiner:That'll be a spike. Okay,
Mark Hill:this is a case that actually client called me last week, this was this was an issue because wife has remarried to a very wealthy guy. husband likes that, because he doesn't have to pay a lot of support because
Shawn Weber:she's really married. That's awesome. I love that man.
Mark Hill:Except that when it comes to Christmas, the gifts are so disproportionate coming from mom, and dad feels like he's just a loser. And it's like she's trying to do it to him. How do you handle that?
Shawn Weber:That's, that's nice. We see it all the time. Right? Yeah, yeah. And, well, number one, you don't want to get into a bidding war with your children. Or try to buy them or try to buy them in some fashion. Or it reminds me of a case I had when I first started where the kids wouldn't go with the mom. And so she was on the corner, waving $50 bills at them to convince them to get in the car with her. is awful. I mean, it's, I mean, you kind of when you hear it, you kind of want to laugh, but it was really horrible. I mean, it was outside of my office, they were actually doing the exchange at my office offers a block away from the family court. And they were, I could hear the kids crying out in the street. I can look down from my eight storey window, and I can see this going on. I can actually hear them through the sealed glass, crying and gnashing of teeth. So I go down and see what's going on in mom's down there waving $50 bills to try to convince the children to get in the car. They don't want to go with her.
Scott Weiner:Why didn't they want to go with her? Was she some sort of horrible?
Shawn Weber:No, it was actually a classic kind of alienation. My client was the dad in the situation. And he had beat the crap out of her. I found out later. And the kids were afraid that if they went with her they would they would get hurt when they got back with dad. Oh, boy. Wow, very bad. Bad, bad, bad situation. Yeah, so most people are not in that circumstance. But like I said, sometimes you're married to a terrorist. So what do you do then? But but, you know, you don't want to be in a situation where you're waving $50 bills at your kids, or the x box or some, you know, oh, well dad got me an iPhone, Isn't he awesome?
Mark Hill:Right? Oh, Dad's taking us to, you know, Palm Springs for the for a week, you know.
Shawn Weber:And the other thing is, you know, Dad got me an iPhone. So the question here is, do both parents agree what kind of technology is appropriate for the child. And I've had that one blow up, you know, somebody just goes and buys an iPad or an iPod for the kids. And, you know, the other parents like, well, hold on, I was trying to reduce screen time. And then you bought that and, and I don't think our child is ready for a phone like that a device like that I prefer they have a flip phone for now. You know, that kind of thing. But then the other parent bought the phone, sometimes this happens, they bought the phone, because there they wanted to have a way to communicate with their child and mom was keeping the communication from happening. So I mean, these kinds of things can blow up and can bleed into Christmas or whatever holiday you celebrate. And that's not cool. You know? So So what is a way around that? What is the way to prevent these kind of fiascos from happening?
Mark Hill:Talk to each other?
Scott Weiner:It's the same answer for everything we've talked about today, talking to each other. Well, it's also impossible in some circumstances for the same reason. You know, if you can't have that communication, because you don't have that trust, there's almost no starting point for any one of these things.
Mark Hill:Yeah. So you have to self regulate, don't you?
Scott Weiner:Well, I mean, that's basically the heart and soul of our collective work, which is that we engage in putting these people to putting a challenge to them of making it their mission to engage in this process in a way that's better than the marriage they've been in. You know? Yeah, like, you know, making this a positive as we can get it to be inflection point.
Shawn Weber:So that, yeah, even if the marriage
Scott Weiner:is has had its horrors, at least, the divorce doesn't have to and their children's children relationships don't have to. And we've, you know, I know that we could, you know, we can't divulge individual names here or whatever. But we could each name the times when we have failed to do that. And for sure, no, it sure wasn't for lack of our trying, but we just don't have the power. If people are dead set on terrorizing B as Sean, you called it being a terrorist. And it doesn't necessarily have to be being a physical terrorist, it can be, you know, just psychologically making it impossible to move on in peace, to give each other the benefit of doubt, even when they have it coming. And we've seen that to where people are unfairly adhering to negative horrors. If people are loyal to that, we can't we can't really help that.
Mark Hill:And as a financial guy, I see that when these sorts of challenges occur, it's a huge cost escalator. I mean, we can get them through and it's maybe triage and it may not be satisfactory. It may not be what we hoped for them, but we can get the deal done. However, the damage that's done in getting the deal done is often very unnecessary. So that's interesting. Been short circuited.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. I mean, I was focused on the psychological damage, but there really is a financial damage here. Yeah. It can be in the terms of failing to cooperate means you're paying more lawyers. Yep. It can be in terms of failing to cooperate means that you're having a bidding war over holiday gifts. And you're making choices that are just ridiculous for your family finances, but you feel like you have to so that you can keep the kids on your side. And when
Mark Hill:this conflict is really intense. I have found even in alternative dispute resolution meetings, it's totally disruptive, because the couple come wanting an arbiter to kind of,
Shawn Weber:you know, throw somebody that can exactly judge a
Mark Hill:Thai referee. That was an appropriate yellow flag. Yeah, no, I
Shawn Weber:mean, you they can do that. Like if it is so bad, you can actually hire a parenting coordinator, which Scott I know you can do that. I've done it before where you can be the arbitrator, you can be the one that says okay, yellow flag, you're not doing that or here's what the holiday schedule is going to be this week. If you're that far gone that you can't work together. Right by all means hire, you know, get a get a parenting coordinator because it can really reduce the costs of ongoing litigation. I mean, I used to make a ton of money right around the holidays over holiday visitation time. Yep. You know, so you know, I've been making list here, let's see what you guys think in my list of common threads. of, of, you know, when you're talking to the kids about the divorce when you're interacting with your children as a couple, even after the divorce, and then when you're doing parenting, these kinds of this list kind of jumped out at me. Number one is communicate, right? We agree on that. You have to absolutely have communication and be clear about what you're what you're tending to do. And then as part of that communication, if you can pull it off agree on a set of governing values for how your co parenting is going to be. Would you agree with that gentleman?
Mark Hill:Yeah, and and also how you're going to communicate,
Shawn Weber:and how you're going to communicate, not just the fact that we're going to, but how and what time?
Mark Hill:What are the rules?
Shawn Weber:I always say you want a smart agreement and needs to be specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, time bound. Smart, that comes from goal setting theory, right. And so when you're talking about setting a goal for communication, we need to be specific about exactly what we're going to talk about and when, and what method are we going to use for the communication? Are we going to use an email account? Are we gonna use fax carrier pigeons smoke signals? You know, how are we going to communicate? And when is it going to happen? And then the other thing is, if you can reduce conflict, and you can do these holidays, together, you can have these communications with your children together. Great, right. But it sounds like from what we've been talking about, if you can't do that, you need to be realistic about what you're capable of doing as a couple. Are you capable of co parenting in a way that is non conflictual? Or will your interactions in front of the children always be negative for the children? And if that's the case, be realistic about it, then set a plan where you're not together when you have these events? That miss anything, guys? Know?
Mark Hill:Well, we can always add this to the list we said, but it can be interminable. But you've hit the high points. And the most it wrong with any of that, that's for sure. And if you make that the focus, what will come from that is you start to build new muscles. Thank you, yes, you have a new muscle to work with your spouse that you didn't have before. And the more you do it, the stronger that muscle will become. And I have had people who've been able to develop that during the case cut say to me at the end, you know, if we'd had these tools before, we might have stayed married.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, I've had that happen to I've actually seen people reconcile over that. I have
Mark Hill:two. Yep. One case in 20 years, but I had one
Shawn Weber:where they figured out that they needed the binder between the two of them that would pass between them with the child where they would talk about homework, sports, discipline issues, and that binder saved their marriage, they ended up going back to their therapists and not getting divorced. Because they've finally figured out a way that they could communicate in a way that wasn't threatening. Yep. And that's the thing, you got to take the charge out of the communication. There is a temptation to want to bring your conflictual charge to the communication over your children and bring your hurt your anger, your your your your fear to the table with your spouse that you're trying to divorce when you're talking about parenting your children, but that charge can be super damaging. So I'm always telling people just take the charge off of it. Pretend like you're Spock, here's what's your proposal. mean, what do you think Scott? See you laughing over there? Well, okay. Easier said than done. Well, there
Scott Weiner:is that there is that, but we never assumed it wasn't easier said than done that that's that goes with this territory. We're assuming this is all difficult. If it hadn't been difficult, everybody would do it. And none of us would have a job. Right?
Shawn Weber:Right. Yeah.
Scott Weiner:I'm thinking more about how the stylistic elements invade every method. And I watched that today while I was at work dealing with dealing with a new group of people. And when one person posed some facts that were difficult facts for that person about the other one, instead of the other one kind of staying in that discussion, even making excuses or justifications that related to that. They shifted grunts well, you would get you did. It's sort of like I said, Wait a second, you know, one subject at a time you can dispute that. But you know this Other thing about how terrible the other person is, for some other reason is kind of not relevant is it? You know,
Mark Hill:but sometimes why they come to us because they are so convinced that we can provide justice for all. If we just listen to the story, we will pick their side and know that they have been wronged and that they should be supported and the other person punished.
Scott Weiner:Well, and then as as the prince says, you know, in Romeo and Juliet, all are punished should all are punished should and it's like, Yes, we all are. But it's, you have to pay the price of listening and working things out fairly. Or folks, you went up in our offices,
Shawn Weber:it well in something I probably should have added to the list that I forgot, which is the most important thing, and that is the children are the priority. Yeah. And so say you've, you know, you're divorcing somebody that's a jerk, or a terrorist. Do you want that conflict to then harm your children?
Mark Hill:It's the old question, isn't it? What story? Do you want your children to tell about their parents divorced when they grow up?
Shawn Weber:Exactly. You know, do you want it to be mom and dad, boy, they took the high road and we just didn't feel their conflict. And they kept us out of it. And we could tell that we just had two parents that really put us first. Or do you want it to be oh my gosh, every Thanksgiving was a nightmare. I dreaded every holiday because I knew there was going to be a fight.
Scott Weiner:Yeah, I dreaded sunrise.
Mark Hill:Yep.
Shawn Weber:Right. I mean, and people. I mean, you know, this, Scott, people develop lifelong emotional issues as a result of how their parents were when they were children.
Scott Weiner:It's true. It goes back. It's generational. It goes to you know, Oh, my Oh, my Oh, my.
Shawn Weber:Well, and it could be maybe, maybe I, you know, if I'm looking at a divorce, I could think well, you know, this, this is what happened with my parents. And there's all these things that that happen when I was a child that causes us to be where we are and, and in my spouse's childhood, but we can stop that. We can stop the cycle.
Scott Weiner:Hopefully,
Mark Hill:well, we can have stopping the cycle as a goal. It's
Shawn Weber:not easy. Yeah, we
Mark Hill:can do it can be aspirational.
Shawn Weber:If you've never set a goal, then you just you know, was that he who fails to plan plans to fail?
Scott Weiner:Yep. That sounds cute. Flipping you like that?
Mark Hill:If you're I use I use that when I was a financial planner. I say pit people never plan to fail. They just fail to plan financially. Oh, my goodness.
Shawn Weber:But it's true. It is true. I mean, you gotta you got to think with the end in mind. So the I mean, that could be a whole other podcast thinking with the industry.
Mark Hill:Yeah. But our time is kind of up gentleman.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. I mean, we can keep going. This is this is a good conversation, Mark, how do they get to you?
Mark Hill:They would go to my website. I am a Certified Financial Planner, certified divorce financial analyst, go to pack divorce.com PAC di V O RC, and we have all our contact information there.
Scott Weiner:My name is Scott Weiner. And these two guys have been beating on me to have my own website, but I don't. So if you want to reach me, I'm a psychologist and attorney and you would call me on the telephone remember that thing? There's this thing you push the buttons with the numbers on it. I answer my own phone to 619-417-5743 and the other monitory phone, right. Any kind of phone that's funny, though, no, it's the crane
Shawn Weber:it's a tin can plugged into the Internet. Well, you know, if they want to get a hold of me for whatever their dispute is, they can go to Weber dispute resolution.com That's Weber with one B dispute resolution.com. Well, guys, we did it again. We burned another 40 minutes, something dispensing our wisdom or lack thereof,
Scott Weiner:something like that. Good to see you again, gentlemen.
Mark Hill:And we would love to hear from our listeners if they have any topics that they would like us to address. We usually bout half an hour before this. Have a panicked call or conversation most of us as to what we're going to talk about. So we love the concept of topics we're not coming up with if you can come up with something please send it
Shawn Weber:all right. I wish everybody the best. Enjoy your turkey.
Scott Weiner:Good holiday to all we'll talk next week. Talk to you soon.
Shawn Weber:Thanks for listening to another episode of the three Wiseman of divorce money psych, and law. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe. Leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique so no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.