The Three Wisemen of Divorce: Money, Psych & Law
The Three Wisemen of Divorce: Money, Psych & Law
The Flowers are Dead: When Valentine's Day Leads to Divorce
Sometimes Valentine's Day, a day supposedly to express love, can be the very catalyst that leads to the final decision to divorce. Sometimes these annual celebrations become triggering to people. The Three Wisemen of Divorce discuss the post-Valentine's Day divorce surge and the relationship psychology that seem to attend such important days. Is it the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back? The final break in the dike? Divorce Wisemen Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, talk it out.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Welcome to the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, psychologist Scott Weiner and attorney Sean Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co-parenting and the difficult decisions real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you are looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 70 years in divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co-parenting. Well, it's that time of year We've recovered from the glow of the new year. Well, people still say new year is having new years. To me, I don't know why we're in the February now.
Speaker 1:We got another glow coming up. But we have another glow coming. You could just tell by what's in the store is because everything's pink and red and red hearts everywhere.
Speaker 2:Oh, there's so much love going on.
Speaker 1:But you know, when we were talking about how the new year can be sometimes a trigger for folks and one of our last podcasts can be a trigger for folks to maybe make a new year's resolution to end their marriage. Mark, you pointed out that you've noticed in your practice that the day after Valentine's Day can sometimes be a day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's a sort of a symptom of something that can be a larger sort of group of triggers around not just things like Valentine's Day, but birthdays and a anniversaries and things that we sort of look at on an annual basis, and it's a way that we chart the passage of time and I think that it can become triggering to people because they think, well, this one sucked, I don't want another one like this and I'm going to do something about it. And Valentine's Day has been one of those things. I have seen a little blip in my practice after the 14th where we get a few calls and I often wonder if that's because of some failure on behalf of a spouse during that period.
Speaker 2:Well, it can be. Well, it's also a. I mean, it becomes rather notable to people Some of the expectations that they have around Valentine's Day or other ostensibly positive kinds of things, and it's sort of like you know what? It's like ice cubes, you know. They realize that it almost is an inflection point, at which time they notice that things aren't so great and then all of a sudden the wise men of divorce are in business, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and it can be. You know, I got to say these things are not ever having in a vacuum, so it's not like he didn't bring the right roses one day and then all of a sudden there's a divorce in the works. It's usually a culmination. It's leading up to someone not paying attention for a long period of time and the marriage is probably sick already.
Speaker 3:It's the final straw that breaks the camel's back right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if that's not true, if it really is just all of a sudden out of nowhere, then that's diagnostic too, you know.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by diagnostic?
Speaker 2:Well. In other words, let's say, everything seems to be going really well by all. You know, in 10, for all intents and purposes, people are doing well, and then one little blip happens, you know at a holiday or a Valentine's, and somebody makes that into a federal case. Then the federal case isn't really the blip. You know it's, it's. You're just all of a sudden you've turned over the stone of reality and discovered that, oh my Lord, this person is really berserk. You know so. But anyway, here we are, and it's February, the second 2021, this new year.
Speaker 1:As of the date of this recording. I mean when we released that. That's right. Well, later it'll be closer to that.
Speaker 2:I'm sure, for time immemorial people will be, you know, pouring over this, you know reading these transcripts, but well, it is ironic because today, as we record this, it's Groundhog's Day.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I think of that film and I've had so many people tell me my marriage is like Groundhog's Day.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. The same crap every day, but I got to break the cycle.
Speaker 2:Right, or Bill Murray waking up. Huh, oh, I love that movie Me too.
Speaker 1:I like the part where he's killing himself every day. Yes, yes, brings a toaster in the bathtub with him.
Speaker 3:I like the part where he just kind of sluffs everybody off on his morning walk. It's like he's not got the time and the patience to do the niceties. I think he just like he's got work to do he gives a right hook to somebody who's really frustrated at some point. That's why I recall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when we discover it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah Well. I think so. People want to break a cycle, right yeah.
Speaker 3:And the trigger can be many things. But you know, I think that the concept of Valentine's Day has been pushed to such a degree to be an indication of how much we care for our partners, and I think that there's the really the. I mean I can say from a personal standpoint. I approach it from the oh my gosh, I have to do something and I have to get it right, and so I'm thinking ahead of time, you know, about planning for it, because otherwise it's the 13th and I'm running over to the drugstore to get a card and thinking what the hell else can I do?
Speaker 1:A box of Whitman samplers and.
Speaker 3:Exactly so. I think that, irrespective of whether it's an event like an anniversary or a birthday or Valentine's, any of these can be triggering events. But it's unusual, as you say, sean, that this to be something that comes out of the blue. We should have seen it coming if that is what triggered it. So our position in Pacific divorce management is no one takes a vacation in the last two weeks of February.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then there you go. So February can be a trigger month, sure it can. Okay, so most of the people that are listening to this program are already in the throes of their divorce or their content or they're thinking about it.
Speaker 3:Maybe they want to get some more information.
Speaker 1:You know, they're just about there, so what does this teach them?
Speaker 2:I want to respond to something Mark said about they should have seen it coming. It's like I think what really happens to people is they, even if they do see it coming it is so disheartening to see it coming that they look away and they look away and then, ironically or paradoxically, or even pathetically, something like this, like a bad holiday, will trigger the beginning of the end. But, yeah, they and I never blame people for wanting to give it a try and for hoping and for wishing for. You know, I mean it's, it's it's hard to be married and to stay married and to work it through and a lot of marriages, and for that, for the reason that it just it just can't keep going. And, as Sean, as you say, a lot of these people that are listening to us, you know they're contemplating a. You know, I just don't think that they should feel bad about not having acted on it sooner, you know, unless it's the circumstance where somebody really is being foul to the other person and then it's like, well, what do you do with that?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, a lot of times these events a bad anniversary of bad Valentine's they become inflection points for people then to make a decision. So what should people be thinking about if this they're at an inflection point and they're deciding do I pull the trigger or not, do I get the divorce or don't I get the divorce? What should be they thinking about if that's something they're trying to make a decision about? Boy is that tough?
Speaker 2:What should they be thinking of? I mean, well, I would want to convey to the people who are listening to this that so many times when our group of people get people that are at that point that, in good faith, we do ask them these things and we do ask them have they tried to counsel their way through? Have they tried to deal with this? It's like we do that. I mean, I get those referrals from you guys and it's like sometimes yes, sometimes no, but there are times when there is an intractable problem. You know, if somebody is serially disloyal in one way or another, if somebody really is abusive, if somebody I mean, frankly, substance abuse is a big deal too, you know it's. It tends to wind up running the relationship, and you know kids are involved, the dangers are involved. You know, what should they be thinking of? What should they be thinking of? Is it worth trying? Is there something that I can do to make this actually work? And hence it really wouldn't be worth blowing it apart, you know, but I'm I'm going to make the assumption that if somebody's thinking about this, most people are thinking about these things. They're thinking about it. They may be, they may be so emotionally overwrought by this time that they've almost fallen into a condition of confusion.
Speaker 2:And I think sometimes you get those calls and you do too, mark, you know.
Speaker 3:And I think sometimes, by the time they get to me, they're almost in a state of financial paralysis. I don't know what I would get. I don't know how this would work. How could we, how will we be able to afford everything? Will I be living under an underpass? Will I have to work until I'm 80? How would the kids get educated? What's going to happen, you know, to my beautiful home? Those kinds of things can often prevent somebody from moving forward because they're scared and they don't know where to get that sort of information without initiating a process.
Speaker 1:You know, mark, you and I share the same business advisor and she's always telling me you know, why can't you just have a formulaic process for when you bring these people in? Why are they taking so long to decide? And I think the answer really is that people call and they don't know Do I pull this trigger or not? And there's a process that people go through when they decide to do this, and I've noticed a couple of themes. Number one is and I've said this before in this program the decision to divorce is very similar to the decision to get back surgery.
Speaker 1:You would not do the back surgery unless the pain that you're in right now is worse than the pain that you're going to be in. You will be in pain after the back surgery, and so you have to make this decision what's going to be worse? And sometimes people miscalculate that, and then they have the back surgery and they find, oh my gosh, I've been worse pain than I was before, and that can happen with divorce. So you do want to think about this Is it worse on the other side or better on the other side? Now we're in the business of teaching people that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and that there is another side and life does continue. But before you pull that trigger, you want to really think about that. And then the other thing I've noticed, and maybe Mark you've seen this and Scott, a lot of times people think that the solution to their sorrow or whatever the funk that they're in is to get rid of the other person. But maybe it's to work on yourself a little bit.
Speaker 3:Thinking of your analogy about back surgery, I had a couple of spinal surgeries many years ago, me too. I was talking to a buddy of mine who's a thoracic surgeon and his comment was you know the thing about back surgery is they never cut on you once Exactly where it's used. And divorce is a bit like that, because it's not one day, it's not an event, it's a process.
Speaker 1:It's a process.
Speaker 3:And it's a painful process because it's a process where you're going to at best, cut your assets in half and walk away with half of how you perceive yourself to be financially positioned today. Also, you're going to have to renegotiate a relationship with your spouse especially well maybe not, but if you have children you will need to for sure, and that's an ongoing situation. So it's kind of like back surgery, with you know, two nubs along the way until you get to a position where we have the marital settlement agreement and we have everything done and you are divorced, and even after that there may be things that you need to revisit from a financial standpoint, and you have a complicated situation that can't be resolved 100% by agreeing everything that will happen in the future in your agreement.
Speaker 1:And I do think in the other piece you know that I was kind of alluding to is being clear about what the source of your Sadness is. Is it really this other person or is there something you need to work on with yourself? I had this client years ago. He was one of my serial monogamists and I think I did four divorces for him, oh Lord. And by the fourth one.
Speaker 1:By the fourth one, he said you know what this is the last marriage. I said well, why are you saying that? Don't you want to go for number five? You know it'd be a record. And he said well, I realized that I have all these terrible relationships, but there's one constant in all of these relationships and it's me. You know I'm like, oh, if I could have. I saw that with the second divorce, you know for him. But he kind of reached this realization and I often tell my divorcing couples before you get into the next relationship, it's sometimes it might be a good idea to get some personal therapy just to clear up any issues, so that you're mostly so that you don't marry the same person again, or go into the same situation.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, scott. There's the other one, which is the person who will report to you. I've discovered that my picker, my chooser, the chooser in me, is broken. You know, there's something wrong with how I go about selecting and again, as you say, marrying the same person again, so to speak, or even literally, and we've seen that. We've seen that. Yeah, so where we wind up here is a couple of things First of all, something that ostensibly is positive and nice and lovely can be a precipitant, such as Valentine's Day. And second of all, really the larger question that we've landed on is how do you really decide? How do you decide whether to go forward or not, and I just think that is downright, frankly, profound.
Speaker 3:But, like any decision, I've always felt that the more information you can gather, the smarter the decision you have an opportunity to make. So getting your an understanding of your financial circumstances so that it's not a shock when you have to move to a two bedroom apartment from the six bedroom home on an acre that you're living in.
Speaker 2:Okay, financially, I believe I am certain you're correct. If you have more information, at least you can wind up feeling more secure about deciding what you're going to be.
Speaker 3:And I think that's a part of it is that I think people have opposing tendencies. Well, we've always had enough money. It's gonna be fine, but I don't wanna look at the details. Oh my gosh, it's gonna be awful. I'm terrified of it. I don't wanna look at the details Okay, and though they're the flip side of the same coin, you're moving forward in the dark. You will be more fearful under any circumstance and you won't have the detail, and fearful people don't make good decisions, in my experience.
Speaker 1:Hmm yeah, and on the other side of the coin is angry. People don't make good decisions Right, and sometimes I fear somebody gets angry about something, sometimes for very good reason. They're angry and then they rush out to hire their divorce attorney because they're angry.
Speaker 3:A colleague I work with has a little thing below the signature that says speak when you're angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, people kind of lose their crap and then decision making becomes a little skewed, and so I always say, okay, if you're making a decision like whether to divorce your spouse out of a place of anger, how likely is it that that decision is gonna be a rational choice? So you know, do whatever you can to manage that anger, get to a place where you're not angry anymore and you're thinking clearly and rationally, and then do your analysis. I mean, what do you think, scott?
Speaker 2:That's better if that can happen. But I am struck with the history that I've seen of people who they can't make a decision when they're not angry for, sometimes for very reasonable reasons, because the person has just done the next infuriating thing that is out of this world, impossible. Now I realize that's more the exception than the rule, but, sean, we've done a couple of cases where the next preposterous and I'm not gonna use Anglo-Saxon terminology right now, but it's what I'm thinking the next preposterous that is hot on the heels of the last one, and so the person on the receiving end of that is palms to the air like what in the world am I to do? And there are those times when, frankly, it's easier to decide that divorce is best. It really is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like it's a catalyst that kind of pushes you over the it's easier to decide that it's best.
Speaker 2:And then, mark, they're still stuck with that question Can we do this Right? Can we afford two domiciles? Can we afford two lives, as you say? Well, I'd be living in an underpass or more likely, in a like in exactly one, half or less the lifestyle I've been in yeah, which actually makes me chuckle, because you hear so many times who I don't see any good reason to get married. Well, I tell you what.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, there are statistics. Yes there are that show that certainly married men do better financially and live longer.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:You can stay married. You're not. It's also cheaper to keep her.
Speaker 2:I'm looking over my shoulder to be sure my wife is not playing with the knives right now. No, it's okay.
Speaker 1:But you know, there's that saying it's cheaper to keep her. That's a little sexist. Maybe it's cheaper to keep them too.
Speaker 2:That's pretty earthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, A lot of times people don't think through all of the consequences and it never fails that. You know, sometimes I'll have a scorned woman or a scorned man that jumps to the conclusion of the divorce and then they get into it and they don't realize how much this is going to damage them financially.
Speaker 3:And the concept I talked about before gathering at least information so you understand what consequences might look like of and you know people often enter this with really bad information. In other words, I've had people come to me and say well, I understand, I'm entitled to the standard of living in the marriage. I've been told that.
Speaker 3:It's like well, that's the first half of it. Do you see what the second half of that says? No, if it's available, if you've got enough to be able to do that, but certainly in, most of the people we see are living, if not beyond their means, at least close to their monthly expenses. And you know that is the situation where you cannot possibly replicate that lifestyle for two households.
Speaker 1:Well, and sometimes people come in and they're not sure do we want a divorce? Do we not want a divorce? What should we be doing? And I'm very happy when they come in to have that conversation, because you can have a facilitated conversation with a mediator. You know they would say therapy.
Speaker 1:I would say therapy is about difficult feelings, while mediation is about difficult decisions and sometimes you know if you're deciding what are we going to do with our relationship as far as our legal standing with one another. You know, mediation is a great way to go because you can bring in a Mark Hill and look at the finances. You can bring in a Scott Weiner and look at the emotional piece and you can work with me and look at the legal piece and make a decision as to number one, are we gonna get a divorce or not, or maybe a legal separation would be better for us, or maybe we just need a post-nuptial agreement where we can just kind of rewrite the Constitution for our marriage. Sometimes those things can work and I've seen people actually keep their marriages together and save their marriages by just making decisions about tweaking and realigning certain things, without having to do the full-blown D word.
Speaker 3:Right and I think that, again, going back to what I've been saying about information, people don't understand that they have those options. Many people just believe that I'm either married or I'm divorced. They don't understand the nuances of a post-nuptial or legal separation and sometimes they will come in thinking that, as we were discussing before we started recording Sean, people will come in thinking that a legal separation will give them certain advantages and rights. That may not necessarily be the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So it's important to talk to somebody that can advise you and give you information.
Speaker 3:Give you the information so you make the smarter decision.
Speaker 1:Well, this has been an interesting conversation, guys, because we started out with just kind of talking in the little tongue-in-cheek about the Valentine's Day and if it goes badly, right, right, right, and it's turned into a discussion about well, how do you know if it's really over? You know, and I think that's important, you can jump to a conclusion, but I think the moral of what we've kind of talked about you correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but the moral of this story is, before you leap, think about it, talk to people, get some, get information.
Speaker 3:And also know where your spouse is. In other words, this is a process, not what she's like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know where my spouse is. He's been at the strip club. Yeah, not quite what I meant he's been with that other woman.
Speaker 3:I'm not quite what I meant in terms of understanding the process.
Speaker 1:We know that, Mark.
Speaker 3:Well, but maybe our listeners don't.
Speaker 1:I know I deliberately confused everyone. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:So that's fine. It was amusing. We tolerate those things. Yeah, good, you know. The thing is, though, that I had cases where one spouse would come to me and say I've been thinking about this for five years. Well, when did you tell your husband? Last night, you know, and he is shocked and he's not there with you. He's yeah, things haven't been great, but they haven't been great for a long time, and why would we change that? He can live with things as they are.
Speaker 1:I don't understand. It's been a week. Why is he dragging his feet Right? You've had five years and that's so common, yeah.
Speaker 1:I was meeting with a couple the other day and he just could not let go of this marriage. She finally just had to say to him there is nothing that you're going to say to me and nothing that you're going to do that's going to make me want to save this marriage. It is really truly over, and I've thought about it, prayed about it, cried about it. It's over, but he just had. He wasn't there yet, because he was. He got the information a little later than she did.
Speaker 3:But there's also something we work in alternative dispute resolution, and when you have the reluctant participant, one of the things we have to guard against is professionals. Is somebody using the process to delay? If I can just slow this down long enough, good Lord, I know she'll come to her senses and come back into the marriage, and so we need to be very cognizant of that and to disavow somebody that they can use the process to basically manipulate an outcome that they're hoping for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I think that when we in our, in our larger meetings, when we sense that happening, simply placing that on the table as a process that we recognize is a pretty good salve for that one. It's sad in the moment when it happens but frankly, it saves them in the long run process. It saves them a fortune and it saves them being fooled by their own wishes. You know it's but it is sad. There's no question about that.
Speaker 3:And we're witnesses to these sad events and we need to be sensitive to them. We are, and so, in terms of you know, most people complain these. This process takes too long, but, sean, you were telling me I think about somebody who was. You know there are a couple who were saying why are you pushing us? You know it's only been three years or so, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I couldn't believe how fast we were going and we please slow down, and it had been three years, yeah. And we were really worried. I mean, the professional team was really worried that, oh gosh, we're just not serving these people well, we're taking too long to get this done. They didn't do it that way at all. Everybody's different.
Speaker 3:I have a case right now where a husband is very comfortable with the pace. Wife is fit to be tied. This is going. This taken three times as long as she in her mind believed it would take, despite what every professional had told her.
Speaker 1:So Well, gentlemen, we've, we've done it again. We have, indeed We've, talked each other's ears off about an important subject.
Speaker 3:So how would they contact you, Sean, if they decided they needed a dispute resolved?
Speaker 1:All they would. First they would go to Weber dispute resolutioncom. Weber dispute resolution dot com and we have a panel of mediators and what we can do is connect them with the right mediator to help them resolve their dispute, and we're happy to do it.
Speaker 2:And Scott. Well, they would contact me by my I believe it's, oh yes, my telephone. It's Scott Weiner and I am a clinical psychologist and attorney, 619-417-5743. And I do answer my own phone.
Speaker 3:Mark, you would go to my website Next of all. That kind of outlines how we operate and tells you, gives you a lot of information about process. We have a contact form. We have a phone number. The phone number rings at my home these days, since offices are something we rarely visit. So please contact us and reach out and see if we can help. The website address is wwwpacdivorecom.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to another episode of the three wisemen of divorce money, psych and law. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe, leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.