Sometimes during a divorce mediation someone makes a proposal that is so off-base it is insulting. The temptation is to get angry, yell or even storm out of the room. But maybe there is a better approach. In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss what happens when someone makes a crazy or even insulting proposal during a divorce negotiation.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
Sometimes during a divorce mediation someone makes a proposal that is so off-base it is insulting. The temptation is to get angry, yell or even storm out of the room. But maybe there is a better approach. In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss what happens when someone makes a crazy or even insulting proposal during a divorce negotiation.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
So you ever have this happen in your office, somebody makes a proposal. And then the other person says, I can't believe you asked for that. Welcome to the Three Wise Men of divorce, money, psych, and law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts, financial divorce consultant, Mark Hill, psychologist Scott Weiner, and attorney Sean Weber, for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co parenting, and the difficult decisions, real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you're looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 70 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co parenting.
Mark Hill:Yes, it's it's an insult to the person that does if they've been insulted.
Shawn Weber:And sometimes it is, frankly an insult, right? Sometimes what do you what do you do and you're the recipient of a proposal that you feel from your perspective. And your divorce case is so off base or so insulting, that you just want to explode, or you want to walk out. You came into the room feeling like okay, this is something we could do. And then the proposal lands like a thud like a lead balloon on the table.
Mark Hill:So one thing I often do is I say, before we start proposals or as a proposal is being made, in order for it to be valuable, it has to have two things. And perhaps the psychologists would say three things, it has to add value to the person making? Well, they would do that's why they're making, right, it's got to have value to the person you're making it to. And you should be able to point out what that value is, too. And also, I say peripherally, they have psychologists say importantly, it should have value to the family. So you making the proposal need to explain what value it has to you what value it has to the other person. And is there a family? Because that turns it around a little bit and ask them to kind of explain their logic, as opposed to here it is it's in the bag and take it a leader.
Shawn Weber:Well, sometimes he sounds like a mediator. You think he might have mediate a case now? Yeah, you get a proposal based on a set of facts, quote, unquote, that have nothing to do with reality or values. They just purely emotional, I deserve this. I need this, I want you to give me everything. Or I want you to give me this thing that has no rational basis in the law, or in fact, they just want it.
Mark Hill:Okay, so that's an opportunity to Okay. So how do you turn that into an opportunity. So Mr. or Mrs. Smith. ABC is really important to you. I can tell, okay. Really important to you? What would you be willing to give to your husband in order for you to be able to get ABC?
Shawn Weber:You have a genie approach, I call it if I'm a genie, and I can grant your wish. Right? What would you be willing to give up in order to get your wish, friend? Exactly.
Scott Weiner:So if a person were to come in and as a first offer sort of a shot across the bow, say that they're entitled to a rather large portion of somebody else's income. How would we structured that if we if we opine as mediators that, that that's an undo portion?
Mark Hill:Well, I think you can actually had some of this off before you get to the proposal stage. And I talked to people about avoiding the Mediterranean marketplace bargain. If you've ever seen that wonderful scene in the Monty Python's Life of Brian, where he's trying to escape from the Romans, but he's got to buy a fake beard and a gourd or something and he's trying to buy the gold really quickly and the guy goes, No, you've got a haggle. Offer me 10 shekels, and he goes, Okay 10 shekels gets 10 shekels, what do you think is worth at least 40. And so, again, that kind of argument. So starting with something that has value to the other person, not just has value to you is often the place you have to go. If you want a solution coming in and with a list of demands and red lines that cannot be crossed, is very difficult to make work in a mediated environment,
Scott Weiner:we can of course, we can't do that. I mean, we're always transforming positions into statements of interest when we can, I am of course, therapeutically reading the tea leaves of the future here, as I'm
Shawn Weber:a magic of the therapist.
Scott Weiner:Isn't it great how I'm doing.
Shawn Weber:But you aren't reading some things,
Scott Weiner:yet? Well, there's that. I'm also i'm also, I mean, I guess I'm also wondering how the three of us are going to manage a future event that's going to look something like a very one sided beginning set of offers, we operate, oftentimes in a collaborative environment. And when we do these hybrid, professional things that are sort of, it's like we have some of that going on, but then not others of it. It's, I find it to be.
Mark Hill:Well, it's confusing, because no one's absolutely clear on their role. And and, you know, as I was thinking, listening to Scott, I was thinking, I think about the same case you're talking about, and the challenge is getting a set of facts that's agreed upon. If you don't agree, it's like Sean said earlier, if you don't agree on the pie, how can we split it up? Well, often that there's a disagreement about what the income stream might be. Well, let's agree upon that before we start trying to divide it,
Shawn Weber:but often times, you can't get them to agree on the facts. And you'll hear people say, Well, you have your truth, and I have my truth. their perspectives will not allow them to agree on the facts, even if it's mathematical. And so then you have to balance Well, what is their what you're pointing to Scott, what is the interest needs and values of the person that's making the proposal and the person is receiving the proposal? And then how can we make that fit? Okay, you have different perspectives, you see this totally different. You see this differently. So what can we do then to make it so that you can find an agreement that will meet both of your needs somewhat?
Scott Weiner:Well, I think that's elegantly said, I think that the, the, the struggle, then, is to find some way to allow these two sets of, quote, unquote, facts to coexist in this in this pool of reasoning, and it's not necessarily a reasonable pool, but it's, it's almost a process pool, in which Okay, you know, it's almost like the physicists do this all the time with with different particle reality as well, in this universe. It's like this and this other universe, it's like that. But even though it's separate, because of separate points of view, we still have to find some way to I don't know, regulate ourselves, if you will, to
Mark Hill:jump in something that you said, Sure. I'm sorry. But the numbers can't i can't make the numbers do anything different. The numbers are the numbers.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, but I went,
Mark Hill:well, I can't do that. But here's the number. Here is the number there it is. It's finite. Have you pulled money out of your purse mom and not had enough to buy something? I understand how it works. I understand that. You got 23 you don't get to buy it.
Shawn Weber:I understand mark that that's what the numbers say, but I still want the house. Okay, well, I deserve this. He needs
Scott Weiner:Mark already handled that mark already handled that though. Mark said okay. You know, you know that I mean, the house is a finite thing. Essentially. It's a specific entity and it has a certain way. If you want that house,
Mark Hill:what are you willing to give up? What we
Shawn Weber:or better yet, instead of you saying, Mark, that math doesn't work? This is what the math says. Yeah. Let them do
Mark Hill:the math. Oh, absolutely. And I
Shawn Weber:know you do that. Let them figure out and so you know, if people work with me, sometimes I actually forced them to do the mathematics with me. Yeah. So they can see it. And then I
Mark Hill:do my Colombo act.
Scott Weiner:One more thing.
Mark Hill:One more thing. You've got health insurance. And yeah. And, and explain to me how this is gonna work when the kids come home? Yeah.
Shawn Weber:how's this gonna work? Yeah. And that's really important, because then what happens then is the people own, what decisions they're making.
Mark Hill:And you know, the reality in is that in what we do, we don't care what they do, within reason. What I mean by that is their solution, whatever works for their family, or the other reformed family works for us. As long as there is that magical, illegal concept of informed consent?
Shawn Weber:Yes. We don't care what you do, as long as you agree. Now, as
Mark Hill:long as you agree, as long as you understand what might happen in the legal environment,
Shawn Weber:when when we started this, we were talking about, I'm coming in as a participant. And my negotiation partner comes up with a crazy proposal, and it makes me angry, and I want to leave. I think a really important thing to think about there is if you become irrational as the person that's making the irrational proposal. It's almost like you're lowering yourself to that level. And you're making it impossible for you to reach an agreement. You're it's a recipe for impasse.
Mark Hill:Always a recipe for repeating something that happened in your marriage. 100 racks?
Shawn Weber:Correct. So then I'm always about Okay, so they did that's just a proposal. The person made a proposal you don't like we get it, you don't like it? That's not a proposal you like what would your proposal be? and force them to make a counter proposal? You know, or maybe not force. We don't force a by doing it, but make it a strongly worded opinion that they should make it a proposal.
Mark Hill:Sure. And I think that people need help with that. Yep. Yeah. Is it something that you can't do on the fly very easily when you're angry? Yes. In other words, I've gotten this totally unreasonable proposal from my soon to be ex spouse. And I doubt I'm supposed to make a proposal back. Well, you want to know how
Shawn Weber:to circle
Mark Hill:Yeah, you want? You want 6 million? Oh, I think you're worth about one and a half. Yeah. It's like, you got to have exactly, you've got to avoid that. how
Shawn Weber:that happened to me today. I met with this couple. And he came in with a proposal and she was so incensed that she's like, well, then I'm not giving you anything. Which wasn't helpful to her. And then of course, he was ridiculous, too. And it wasn't helpful to him. Yeah. And so you know, in that situation, I had to kind of go in separate rooms with this particular couple and help them to think more clearly. You know, just not and not that, Oh, I'm going to go in there and control how you think but what it is I want to, I want to everybody take a deep breath. And think logically instead of emotionally.
Mark Hill:Right? The strategic What is your what's your outcome? What do you mean? Yeah, I want to have everything I want her to have nothing. What do you think that but I want that more?
Scott Weiner:It's okay. No, no, he's Yeah, he's he's saying essentially, where we started here, that notion of you want What? Um, I gotta say that, you know, that in a in a litigated environment, people do tend to start with the extreme on their end, and, you know, patiently like forced the other side to pull them to the middle to the extent necessary. And that, um, that in law school, I mean, that's sort of
Shawn Weber:Oh, yeah, you do you tell your top level what you think you're really going to get?
Scott Weiner:Yes, vigorous representation,
Shawn Weber:really terrible. negotiation. My opinion. Well, yeah, you know, I think
Scott Weiner:it wastes a lot of time.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. Well, it's all that the marketplace that he's talking about, you're just bouncing back and forth or used car sale. Yeah, you know, but but if you if you make it about interest, needs and values, what are my interests here, and then you articulate that to the other side, like Mark was suggesting, and you think about what their needs are, you know, then you can probably get somewhere. I mean, the whole premise of our podcast, guys That you need the emotional, the legal and the financial that kind of come together for there to be a settlement. Right, right. Yeah. And I think that's true and people are making you know, if you get this proposal, it throws you off emotionally it's gonna be hard for you to agree to something later.
Mark Hill:And the other thing the one thing I've noticed is that when couples do this, they are focused on each other. In other words, it's punishment or it's retribution in some form is what the offer is a really bad you know, yeah. And so one thing I done is and this may be frowned upon but I use the children mercilessly on the show so I'm gonna live in the mansion and you want him to live in a two bedroom condo in somewhere Okay, and you want your children to go back and forth and see the differences that how is that going to work for your kids bring the focus away from the couple on to the children and the impact this kind of suggestion might have that there's no kids don't have that opportunity. But that is something that
Scott Weiner:you can no no but where you went there what you did by doing that was to almost make it impossible for them to ignore empathy in in the process through the through the kids it's like the one where we're going to be meeting very soon it doesn't have that element and the irrational requirements quote unquote, being posited. I don't know that we have that kind of a I mean, I think that we're going to have to indulge the marketplace a bit
Mark Hill:I mean, don't you say you sometimes have to do it to get past it
Shawn Weber:the other thing guys you just really important there Scott and when those very highly emotional cases slowing it down? Yeah, you know, and let's indulge in this a little bit. This back and forth I think can be really helpful.
Mark Hill:And taking away by addressing early the hot the things that create a heightened emotion, is it because they're still under the same roof? Is it because one on rather than has a bad living arrangement? Is there something related to one of the kids going on that we can help them with? Yeah, there's often just one thing that you get past it and everyone takes a deep breath think, okay, now Now we can really work on this because that thing that's driving me crazy every day went away.
Scott Weiner:I look forward to pre briefing this particular I mean, I'm finding myself wanting to do it right now
Shawn Weber:temptation to do it here on our podcast. No, don't do that. You must not do that.
Scott Weiner:But I know I know. But I mean, this this this particular one Honest to God, I've I've been a therapist for 40 years. I feel like I have a lot to learn about dealing with the peculiarities of this one
Shawn Weber:well we all the cases come up like that right? Yeah, I think you're perfectly right. Yeah, perfectly perfectly rational people can lose their crap to you know, especially in this you know, we were talking about this before we started the podcast, this this environment that we're in with, you know, it's kind of joking about COVID It's like we're suffering from PTSD and we have to go back and hang out with our abuser which is the virus right we have to go back and put masks on again and we thought we were free and now we're it's we're like the Godfather they just pull us back in. Yeah. And that is upsetting to people and perfectly rational folks are losing their crap. And it's easy to do. You know, so we have to be aware of that and I think folks when they're going through this need to be aware that this this environment that we're in can can make them more volatile than they would normally be and make their partner more volatile. Okay, so another thing I was thinking about is the complaint. Somebody comes in she always does this and I want this and it's terrible that she's always late for pickups of the kids. And I usually go back to this okay, I hear that complaint that that sounds a lot like a proposal. What do you want? Well, I want her to show up on time. Can you put that into a proposal?
Mark Hill:And there's two words you should never use? Always and never
Shawn Weber:Yeah, that mean it's all or nothing thinking that tells me exactly.
Mark Hill:You know, she she's all Ramsay really So you've been married for 38 years, and she never showed up on time. Not once, right? 38 years. Wow. Did you survive so long?
Shawn Weber:Yeah. No, but I mean that all or nothing but is that
Mark Hill:just thinking that that puts people on the defense? I was late this morning. I acknowledge that. I was Sorry, I'm late. Yeah, I was late. You know what, I'm not always late. Don't try. Don't take that situation where I showed up late this morning, and suggest that I'm a recalcitrant person who's never showed up on time in my whole life, because that's not true. And that pisses me off.
Shawn Weber:And anyway, you're divorcing me anyway. So what do you care?
Mark Hill:Yeah, really.
Shawn Weber:You know, when when these complaints happen, though, it's a it's a proposal in disguise. And so you can dive under that complaint and find out well, what is it that you want to change? Okay, so you're concerned about punctuality. So let's build that into our agreement that
Scott Weiner:I'm sitting here listening to this, and I'm laughing, I have a relative. And not only is he always late, he is always phenomenally irresponsible. This is this is a guy who's who's this is a distant relative whose parents what? His house into a trust. And you know, because he was missing payments. He is a kind of guy
Mark Hill:who had Okay, this one guy in the war he had, he had like that one, he just proved my warranty
Scott Weiner:parking tickets in the glove compartment of his car. All right. And here's our there are no better. So I guess,
Mark Hill:with CD plates, you know, the plates.
Shawn Weber:The other thing is, when we hear a complaint, it could be that there's a reason for it.
Scott Weiner:Yeah, and I guess I guess I'm, you know, I think that part of our, our upcoming meeting is going to involve some of that, some of that there's, there's there's, you know,
Shawn Weber:but again,
Scott Weiner:I still think that the operational beauty of getting people to generate proposals and getting people to recognize the interests of the other party that still works, even with even with unreasonable people.
Shawn Weber:So again, like you don't like this behavior? What do you want to change about the behavior? Now make a proposal? Yeah. It's more future oriented. Right. So whereas a complaint,
Mark Hill:exactly, it changes the focus, remember, we can't talk about the past.
Shawn Weber:I always tell them talk about the past. Yeah, yeah. Well, we've talked about a lot of stuff. And I do think, you know, making proposals is a is an important skill that you know, we try to teach our clients how to do it so that when they're done with us, they can continue to make proposals with their with their partners, especially if they have children that they got to continue to co parent and also they can have a more productive relationship even if it's not a marriage it's it's a relationship where you can co parent together. Yeah, I
Mark Hill:mean, that's the the ultimate goal of the work is to give people tools that can make them more effective in communicating after the process is over than they were before they started.
Shawn Weber:So let's do our summary then. So you get a crazy proposal that you think is absurd, and it insults you. So the first thing to do is not
Mark Hill:overreact. And don't make a crazy proposal back
Shawn Weber:and don't make a crazy proposal the back. And then just think rationally, even though it's hard. And if you can't think rationally, find someone who can help you think rationally
Mark Hill:or even ask for a time and ask if it's okay to say I am five minutes to consider this and go to bed.
Scott Weiner:You can have a response. Again, the word media comes in again mediate, but a mediated response where, you know, when you ask for that, I'm so upset. When you ask for that, I find that so upsetting. It seems so unfair and unreasonable and I'd hoped that we could, you know, that we could come together and you know, really move towards The middle, right from the beginning, instead of like this and then have to force our way back in. However, I'm gonna try to Yeah, it's, you know, it's okay to say you're really upset. I mean,
Shawn Weber:Oh, sure. I, I am not one of these mediators that shutdown, emotional response, I think, yeah, sometimes people need, you know, people are people and they're going to be emotional. And if you're a mediator and you can handle a little bit of conflict, yeah, they do a good job you need, you're in the wrong frame, you're in the wrong environment. So I do think there's a place for saying what you got to say. I read a quote the other day, my wife put a sticky on my computer. And it says, Can you you can't see it. Conflict is inevitable. contention is a choice. And I think, you know, why
Scott Weiner:would she Why was she angry with you?
Shawn Weber:said that, but I like it. Yeah, it's probably always
Scott Weiner:what she's saying. And now I'm going to get into some real contention. That is my choice that I choose
Shawn Weber:to attend. Yes. There are people that choose to content, thank you better run rather be a big part of the problem and a small part of the solution. So yes, there
Mark Hill:are some people who are most comfortable when they're fighting and arguing.
Shawn Weber:But people, most people find it very unpleasant to fight. Yes, yes, yes. And it takes years off your life makes you feel gross. You think about it all the time. Oh, I should have said this to him. Right? Yeah, yeah. But really, when you when you're able to make a proposal that's actually a meaningful proposal proposal based on rational thought. It's a very pleasant experience, to actually see something come together.
Scott Weiner:It's creative,
Shawn Weber:creative, it's collaborative. It's all kinds of good. And possible, even with that crazy person that made that nutty proposal.
Scott Weiner:Sometimes it is.
Shawn Weber:So Scott,
Unknown:that desert, candidly,
Mark Hill:your case will end
Scott Weiner:it will add layer another.
Mark Hill:You can choose not to divorce, you're in it. Yeah. You can either on your on your current role, the process that you're involved.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, you can do it on your terms, or the terms of a stranger in black robes. Yep. So Scott, if I need some help, just dealing with my emotional response to that crazy proposal? What should I do?
Scott Weiner:Well, if you happen to want to speak with a therapist, or a coach, who works in mediating these divorce situations or other situations, you can call me My name is Scott Weiner, w e i n er, and I have a phone and I answer my own phone. 619-417-5743 and Mark,
Shawn Weber:oh, Mark, if you want to, if I need somebody to help me with the math, because you know the math, the numbers don't lie. What should I do?
Mark Hill:You would go to this wonderful 21st century inventions for the website. I know it's got hasn't worked that out yet. Anyway, I have this website, you go to pack divorce.com Pac, di voc.com. And everything you need is there including my phone number, and I answer my phone,
Shawn Weber:too. You know, I think he's worked it out. He just doesn't like it.
Scott Weiner:Ah, I you know, it's kind of hard to figure out whether to whether to work more or retire. What do you think I should do? You guys?
Shawn Weber:Don't need the family life?
Mark Hill:Yeah, really. You want to make sure you die at your desk and your agents?
Shawn Weber:Well, if you need me to resolve this dispute between mark and Scott, go to my website, Weber dispute resolution calm, and we can match you with a mediator who can help you resolve your dispute. That's
Scott Weiner:gonna help Mark and I solve this thing. Yeah.
Mark Hill:We'll just find a teenager we both trust
Shawn Weber:there you go.com you next time.
Scott Weiner:Thanks, guys. Bye. Good week to you guys.
Shawn Weber:Thanks for listening to another episode of the three Wiseman of divorce, money, psych and law. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe. leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique. So no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.