We've seen it time and again in divorce cases. When adultery happens, sometimes the adulterer has no clue what kind of pain they are causing. It's almost like folks have blinders. While most states have "no-fault" divorce, the pain of an affair can adversely affect agreement readiness during divorce negations whether courts recognizes fault or not. In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss the psychology and emotional ramifications of adultery on divorce negotiations.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
We've seen it time and again in divorce cases. When adultery happens, sometimes the adulterer has no clue what kind of pain they are causing. It's almost like folks have blinders. While most states have "no-fault" divorce, the pain of an affair can adversely affect agreement readiness during divorce negations whether courts recognizes fault or not. In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss the psychology and emotional ramifications of adultery on divorce negotiations.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
© 2024 Weber Dispute Resolution. All rights reserved.
Well, I think I got enough goofy stuff for the intro. Yeah, Please edit out some of that. Oh no, I'm gonna include your story, complete with F word so that we have to have an explicit language advisory. You know what if we did that our viewers, people viewing it would go up by probably 30%. But you're probably, you know, maybe I could put like a beep in there. Yeah, no, please don't, please don't let that one go through. Okay, I won't. Welcome to the three wisemen of divorce, money, psych, and law podcast. Sit down with the California divorce experts, financial divorce consultant, Mark Hill, psychologist Scott Weiner, and attorney Shawn Weber, for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co parenting, and the difficult decisions, real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you're looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 70 years of divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation, and co parenting. Okay, so you've you've probably had this case come up guys, right? Where there's a divorcing couple. And one party has left the other party, you know, you have a levy and a lever. And they've left the other party for a new person. And for some reason, the person that got left is not happy about that. Have you ever encountered that kind of effect pattern? It does happen, where the person that is left is unhappy about being left for another prettier, more handsome person?
Scott Weiner:Does it ever not happen?
Shawn Weber:That's a very common fact better, right?
Scott Weiner:Yeah,
Shawn Weber:this happens a lot too is the person that left is very confused as to why the person that is being left is unhappy and says and I quote,"why can't you be happy for me?"
Scott Weiner:It's so hilarious. Why are you? So So somebody? I, you know, in current times when there's this huge divide between the 1% and the 99% of the others. I'm imagining a one percenter walking by some rather hungry, disheveled looking homeless person saying, Why can't you be happy for me? Why can't you it's
Shawn Weber:I worked hard for this
Scott Weiner:well, or I didn't
Shawn Weber:at your expense, but I did.
Scott Weiner:Maybe, maybe, maybe? Why can't you be happy for me?
Shawn Weber:And they really mean it to I mean, they're really confused as to why the person that you had you stepped out on and are now divorcing? why that person is not just thrilled for you?
Scott Weiner:Are they really? Are they really that confused? Or are they just wishing, kind of a free pass to enjoy their good fortune after the fact? I mean, are they actually your, their behavior does often be speak a kind of confusion? Why can't you be happy for me? Yeah. You know, there's a difference between sincere and rhetorical questions. People say those things, they say, Why can't you be happy for me? And I was saying that, that's not really even an honest question. Most times from a communications point of view. When I say, Well, why don't that why doesn't that guy do this? Or that or the other? I'm really not asking. Why doesn t I'm really, it's a rhetorical statement, I am urging that he should do it. When you say why can't they be happy for me, I'm saying you should be happy for me and I want you to be happy for me. And I don't want the conflict that comes from feeling that reasonable guilt of having dumped my other for this, you know, new Tesla Model that just came along you know,
Shawn Weber:I, I think you're generally right. But I have seen genuine puzzlement, alright out to two or three occasions in my career, where I I just think they couldn't see anything but their own perception. They couldn't put themselves in the place of anybody but them
Scott Weiner:but you You did already pose the theory to cover that, or Shawn did, which is there, you know, I mean, narcissism with a small n is a healthy component of all of us, you have to have some sort of take care of yourself, be good to yourself, or you won't be any good for anything. But when we when we cross a line, and we become completely ignorant of how other people might I don't know
Shawn Weber:Well people get blinders on, don't they. So they kind of get into their, I think of blinders, like on a horse where you can only see what's in front of you. And not really being aware of what's going on around you as you're forging ahead. And here's this person, you know, let's say it's a guy, and he's got the new honey, and she makes him feel really good. And she's good in bed. And he feels alive. Maybe he had a mid life crisis.
Scott Weiner:Did you say a midwife for midlife?
Shawn Weber:I think it came out midwife. Yeah, you did. life crisis. You know, and he feels loved. And he feels sexy for the first time in years. And so he's so focused on how good he feels. And how wonderful this experience is that there's just an assumption that everybody must feel wonderful about him having this experience to including the person he's leaving.
Scott Weiner:Do you really find that believable that he actually believes that? I mean, Mark says that once or twice in his experience he's seen, he's seen that occur. And I believe that
Shawn Weber:Yeah, I've seen it happen. Yeah,
Scott Weiner:yeah, it's why can't now let's let's let's alter the story a little bit. Let's go. Hmm. What's a good period of time seven or eight years down the line? when everybody's had a chance for this divorce to essentially dust is settled after the affair. Yeah, there's it's shaked out and it's almost like maybe they have kids they meet and they have coffee from time to time to talk about well, you know,
Shawn Weber:you see stuff mistress or is no, no,
Scott Weiner:yeah, our son, our son, Freddy Krueger has stopped terrorizing the, you know, kids in school, and, and our other boy, Chucky is behaving much better. You know, we let them around the kitchen knives now. And Oh, and by the way, I have a new lady love, you know? And, and, and she returns to that jealousy and stuff like that, and all that are angry. And then he might reasonably say, can't you be happy for me? I mean, we're down the line. Now
Shawn Weber:down the line, is this right didn't happen during the marriage. You're saying this happened seven years after the marriage? Right? Right. That seems more understandable and reasonable, right? Especially because there may have been relationships that the other spouses add during that period? Well, I will say this, if I'm going to have a problem on a case, especially when there's kids involved post judgment. It's going to be when the new significant other shows up. You know, and you're amazed. I mean, even the person that asked for the divorce, like I had a case like this, she asked for the divorce.
Scott Weiner:I think I know it,
Shawn Weber:you know, the one we're talking about she after the divorce, and he at some time after the divorce was final, has a new person, and then she has an absolute cow over it, that he's with the new person becomes incredibly jealous. And that always kind of puzzled me. You know, you you wanted this. He's finally moving on. And now you're angry. You know, so that happens to and it seems I feel like we're picking on women. I mean, this happens in both directions, right? It's not gender specific. I've seen women have affairs or have new significant others and the men get jealous.
Scott Weiner:Absolutely.
Shawn Weber:And I've seen the argument made on behalf of the person that saying, Why can't you be happy for me? Look, you've been miserable for years, I've heard from you for years, how miserable you've been. I'm giving you the opportunity to find what I have found, oh, I had that one a couple of weeks ago, the wife is the one that had the new relationship. And she said, I thought you would be glad that I left. You know you weren't happy during the marriage. You made that very clear to me throughout the marriage that you're unhappy. And now I'm with a new person and you're angry at me about well, what causes that? Why would a person be angry when they were miserable? The whole marriage?
Scott Weiner:Well, we're assuming that the only dimension of of wanting a loyalty in this and the other is this affiliative connection. There are other dimensions there's, you know, there's other reasons that we can be Jealous, it. You know, a lot of times the dynamics of these relationships are. It's this It sounds so can to say it, but it's almost reflective of family of origin. It's almost like I see a lot of couples issues as being almost brother and sister rages that go on, you know who's more worthy, who's more deserving of the respect of others? Who's this? Who's that as the other. And it's sort of like, it's like a pecking order thing. You want to get biblical about it. Go ahead, Jacob and Esau get going, you know, it's sort of like, this is old stuff. This is so core for us, these old jealousies, that they're reflected in all their religious writings, that's all their
Shawn Weber:mother liked you more than me.
Scott Weiner:Well, then there's that one, too, you know,
Shawn Weber:but there's that often with the in-laws too. Sometimes you get an in law who really likes the Yeah, the daughter in Oh, yeah, that creates problems for the spouse.
Scott Weiner:Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And you don't even need a divorce for that one.
Shawn Weber:Probably cause one. Well,
Scott Weiner:I mean, I, I stayed with you because I like your mother, you know.
Shawn Weber:I think there's a country song. I won't miss her. But I'll miss her dad. Well, like that Jim Reeves song, she took the house and left it was a mobile home.
Scott Weiner:Okay, okay.
Shawn Weber:Well, there's a need isn't there, there's an emotional need that is not being met. When a person strays. I'm not saying I'm not trying to defend the adulterer. Right. But these things don't happen in a vacuum. Would you agree with that or am I,
Scott Weiner:I would agree with that, but not with the idea that it's, I mean, there, there are emotional needs that we have of each other, that are fair to ask. And then there's dependency needs that are too powerful to be met by, you know, just some other person and then the string can be as much for string isn't always wholesome. Okay. string is not always well, you know, there was just this reasonable need that I wasn't. Yeah, you know, it can be for crazy unmet dependency needs to
Shawn Weber:I think most people who say straying is definitely not wholesome.
Scott Weiner:Well, yeah. But you're talking about when there's a need that's not being met. Yeah.
Mark Hill:But there's this cereal strayers...
Scott Weiner:, not all, not all men are created equal, shall we say that?
Shawn Weber:I think there are people who, who, essentially that is their go to default position if I'm not getting what I want, I will stray and there are people who do that and then there are others I think who genuinely fall into a relationship at a time when they don't you know, they weren't unnecessarily seeking it. I think there's there's different shades of grey on this spectrum here. There's a there's a lot of gray, you know, I
Scott Weiner:maybe about 50
Shawn Weber:What's that? 50 Shades of Grey shades. You would know better than I counselor. psychologists and all your sex talk.
Scott Weiner:void. I don't know whether our voyeurism or our hypocrisy is more remarkable. It's hard for me to tell. I
Shawn Weber:Well, that's what we have you here for to make those kinds of decisions on. Yeah, I
Scott Weiner:see. I see why I've said before that I think that sometimes we're paid professional hypocrites, but okay. Alright. So yes, there's there's some kind of, I mean, some kind of tropism some kind of turning toward a, an experience that a person wants. Yes, that that is a valueless assertion. However, you know,
Shawn Weber:I'm not here trying to argue that you're justified when you stray. I'm just saying, there's a reason why people stray that could be explored and it could help to understand it. I had a case I think I've mentioned this case before in this podcast, where the woman always looked like she'd swallowed a lemon. She was very angry. Because he had an affair, and she always referred to the mistress throughout the proceeding, the mistress that the mistress this, and he would come back and he would say, well, divorce doesn't happen in a vacuum. There's a reason why I left because you were a cold, horrible person to be around you never met my needs, he wouldn't sleep with me. You were always cruel to me. And so I left and her response was, Well, you know what I would rather you just left and then gotten with your mistress, why did you have to get with your mistress while you were married? To me? That would have been much more, you know, be a man is what she said, you know, you should have been a been You shouldn't have, right? That's exactly. And so that was, you know, and I know I'm getting into kind of a moralistic argument here. But But I mean, my point in bringing it all up is there were two very clear points of view and a lot of hurt going on. And let me take this back up to, you know, 30,000 feet and say, how did that impact the process of the divorce? And how much more difficult was it? And because I do recall you talking about this space, and there was some resolution that occurred, but getting that resolution at earliest stage in the case I would have suspected would have made it smoother. Yes, I mean, she was very angry. And, Scott, I think you've told me this, that anger is a secondary emotion. Right, that? Well, that's
Scott Weiner:I say that that that's one of the conventional theories. Yes.
Shawn Weber:Yeah.
Scott Weiner:But that, at least in many cases, I've seen it be true.
Shawn Weber:She was very wounded. Yes, yes, he was very wounded. She was very hurt, she was angry at him. She didn't want to cooperate with him in CO parenting. And so I think the kids were going to suffer because of that. She wanted him to pay. She wanted him to, to have to suffer for what he did. And the problem and the problem is we're you know, we're in California, which is a no fault state. And, you know, I've told people, you know, when I used to do litigation, I used to say, you know, he could go out and sleep with every chargers cheerleader that's begging the charges, we're still in San Diego, with every chargers cheerleader different went every night, and the court wouldn't care. You know, and because people are looking for some kind of retribution, some kind of justice for what he did to me, or what she did to me. And that's not available legally. So then I had to explore with that family as the mediator. Could she have, in essence, an opportunity to clarify what he did? And what that meant to her? And what pain that caused her? Could that be expressed in a way that would then allow them to be able to go on to settlement? And, and that's what we did? You know, we gave her that forum, and then they got to settlement? Well, the great thing about that is they actually came into mediation. Because many people who are that angry just want the retribution of the gladiator attorney going out and fighting the good fight on their behalf. And credit to both of them that they made that they actually came into mediation. Yeah, I mean, they had a lot of, they had a lot of, there was a lot of emotionality going on there. And, and I got to give her credit, she was very angry, it was very challenging at the beginning of the case, but then she got to a place where she was quite reasonable. And if anything, he became more problematic
Scott Weiner:to me, but I gotta give credit to the mediator, the fact that you that you installed that process for them, and saw that as a potential window through which they could perhaps pass and get to another level of settlement. Uh, I mean, I'm not wearing a hat. But if I had when I take it off to you,
Shawn Weber:well,
Mark Hill:but let's compare what would have happened in a litigated case. In that case, you would have had the ability of the talented attorney. I think I've told this story before, but a colleague of mine from San Francisco started with the big firm many, many, many years ago, she told me that they had a partner who specialized in jilted women as clients. And his comment to the woman was, and he would repeat it in pretty much every case, then we will rip out his lying heart. That was exactly the phrase he would use in order to gather clients essentially, and go through a litigious process to try to that retribution you were talking about.
Shawn Weber:I had a former business partner she was an old school litigator and she would tell people we're going to get his left testicle on a silver plate
Scott Weiner:I gotta ask a question. In a in a common law state, can you get retribution for?
Shawn Weber:Well, there are some states that are still were fault is still an element. And they can affect outcomes. Not in California, but not in California. But there are some states where where fault is an element thing. Georgia was one of them. Yeah. And there's been a big debate as to whether polling falls out of divorce proceedings was actually positive. Because what happens now is you go to court Yeah, the judge doesn't have to thread the needle and figure out who caused this marriage. Yeah. But what you have then is you have no processing happening so then anybody brings up affairs then the litigating attorney stands up objection relevance irrelevant Yeah. Because it whether he had an affair is not relevant or she had an affair. You can bring affairs into California proceedings through the breach of fiduciary duty argument though and through the way money was spent correct so he he spent money on her $30,000 tennis bracelet you know for the mistress now we've got an issue that is relevant and you can bring you can bring it into the into of the story, but that just because he chose to go out with her the night of their anniversary, that's not going to have any difference to the case. The fact that he had a lying cheating heart that we're going to pull out well, no matter
Scott Weiner:and the Adjust the adjustment in property for that$30,000 tennis bracelet. It's 15 grand.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, exactly. Well, unless unless he defrauded her you say case, it could be 30. Could be 30. Yeah, it can. It depends on you know, what his behavior was, like, if he came clean and Okay, then we'll just we'll make those adjustments.
Scott Weiner:I see. So, there can be a discouragement term there if there's fraud, fiduciary fraud Yeah, or
Shawn Weber:you know, I also had the case where this was early in my career and the husband it's these poor man, it's always the man I'm picking on but it usually is.
Scott Weiner:Let's face it, come on.
Shawn Weber:It's sometimes it's the women but he had cleaned out their 401k and had spent it on lap dances and pornography. It's a lot of porn are really tiny. 401k it was a whole lot of money. He was pulling out and it was it was six figures. Hmm. Wow. And judge said that was not a breach of fiduciary duty. He had a right to do that. That was just you know, that benefited the community.
Scott Weiner:Which community was he speaking of?
Shawn Weber:I don't know.
Scott Weiner:I think I have a hunch
Shawn Weber:I was dumbfounded when that was going on and I use that as my example of you never know what a judge is gonna do. I had a case years ago where husband had chosen to invest in a business for the mistress or the new girlfriend and didn't come clean to wife about it. Yeah, that that was considered an abusive fiduciary duty you know, you see a lot of these guys yeah, because actually the business did really well. But she wasn't going to benefit from it you know, because he had us separate property funds for it. It was very complicated but they interesting was an interesting case because as I found out a long time after I was involved with it, the judge actually did side with the wife's position you know that she had been excluded from an investment opportunity and just because it was with the the girlfriend she should have had the opportunity to participate in it so he ended up writing or a jack I think for like 50,000 or something so yeah, we see that or you know, we get a lot of these people they're crying fat they're crying poor I'm poor. I don't have any money while they're driving around on their girlfriend's mother Roddy. Yes, right. It's not their girlfriend's mother it is their mother it but they put it in their girlfriend's name so they can hide it. And and, but I will say this to people that try that kind of garbage. You always get caught. It's not something that's really smart to try to play those games because the forensic accountants that have seen every trick in the book can spot these things pretty quickly. There's not any trick that you can dream up that they haven't already seen. Yeah.
Scott Weiner:So when I'm going to ask my wife and I'm driving my my, you know, my mistress's Maserati around. And I'm going to ask her, why aren't you happy for me.
Shawn Weber:Why aren't you happy?
Mark Hill:Don't you get to ride in the Maserati every night?
Shawn Weber:Why Are youbeing so selfish? Why? Why can't you just let me be happy?
Scott Weiner:Why, why why? Yeah, so
Shawn Weber:Okay, well, what's the moral of the story? We've been talking around this issue and we've, what can we learn from this, I think there's one thing we've listening is that unresolved issues around hurt. And anger will make the divorce case more expensive, more painful and take longer. I think that so if there's a way to get past that, not to necessarily forgive, but to be heard, and to be acknowledged, that your position has been heard, that often goes a long way, you don't necessarily get resolution, we're not talking about marital therapy to get them back together. But being able to address I think, where we you know, in our approach, when we do things outside of court, like giving people a forum where even though legally, it may not be relevant, letting people address it, to some extent, can allow for a pathway to settlement can give people an environment where the case can settle. Because if people are just kind of just filled with anger, and rage, and pain, and hurt, and all of that, it makes it very hard for folks to think clearly enough to be able to reach a settlement. Because it's always clouded by I can't believe I have to share with this person that did me so wrong. And I think that's the concept of settlement readiness. There comes a point when we have all the financial information we need. So financially, we may be settlement ready. But nonetheless, unless they're emotionally ready to end their battle. And that's often what it comes down to, they're not going to complete the case in a satisfactory way. So I think getting people to that point. And I think the takeaway is, you know, if you if there is anger, in your case that's spilling over into your negotiations, you should encourage, we would encourage you to be engaging a mental health professional or to help you through that part of it, because it's the most cost effective way of getting your case done. Yeah, and I want to clarify, not engaged in mental health professional because we think you're crazy. You know, what we're saying is engaged in mental health professional so you can get a grasp on this emotionality that is infecting the ability for you to make clear, logical choices, and to be able to communicate with each other. Yeah, it's really about they always think about the coaches being communication specialists, you know, no marriage breaks down unless there's been some degree of communication, failure. You know, there's the Truth and Reconciliation committee in South Africa. Yeah, next to the great Nelson Mandela. And there was a lot of hurt that went on in South Africa through apartheid. And the Truth and Reconciliation committee, the whole point of it was to be able to speak truth and to be able to tell your story. And without the anticipation for retribution, correct. Just add to it. Tell your story. How were you hurt the person that was the victim? What did you do the person that caused the pain and that did a lot to heal that country. Now, I'm not saying it's perfect, and they use a lot of the same. They did a lot of the same thing in Rwanda, where there was a lot of pain. They did it also in Northern Ireland, and found that people are able to tell their story and process it made it possible for people to reconcile something
Scott Weiner:These are some of the most positive I mean, political events of my lifetime that you're talking about.
Shawn Weber:positive political events that were that were preceded by some of the most negative political events and are exactly right. You're talking civil wars basically Yeah. Oh Rwanda, where people watch their parents butchered...
Scott Weiner:massacres. What's your NASA curse? Yeah, I'm sorry, massacres,
Shawn Weber:they watch their parents butchered, enable, being able to process what happened, what was the story that led to that pain and that horror enabled people to be able to find peace.
Scott Weiner:So
Shawn Weber:and piece by the way, is not the absence of being done wrong, is it?
Mark Hill:No
Shawn Weber:peace is being able to to live with the pain that you had in the story that you had and being able to move forward in a way that does less harm.
Scott Weiner:It's to move on to be able to move on at all.
Shawn Weber:But what is that that old saying? I don't know who said this. But holding a grudge is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies?
Scott Weiner:Yeah.
Shawn Weber:Yeah. But I think we as practitioners have to be very careful. And I've been guilty of this, because we're going to no fault state minimizing the activity that caused the pain. No, that's not the it's not relevant. We can't talk about that. But the person that is feeling that pain is nevertheless feeling that pain, whether I think it's relevant or not. But yes, when the when those issues are coming up in the context of say, work, we're doing you and I, Shawn, we have to step outside, if we're co mediating a case are our core competency in order to be able to do this, I think you and I both about skills that enable us to be effective in some cases, but there are cases where it's beyond our paygrade, frankly, and that's when we need to train,
Scott Weiner:I gotta say, you guys are some of the best I've ever seen. I unbelievably, I mean, well, we had a meeting just the other day where I felt free. And I think I made a mistake, I made a mistake. But where I felt so comfortable with you guys, and how you were managing things, that in order to save a client some money, I said, You know what, you don't need me for the rest of this one. Now, as it turns out, I was wrong. But you're definitely
Shawn Weber:needed. Yeah, well, yeah, I
Scott Weiner:think so I think.
Shawn Weber:But I think I think, you know, we, Mark and I, we, I think you and I would agree, Mark, that there's a point where, you know, we're, we act like therapists sometimes, but we're not at all where that line is. And I'm very happy to bring in a mental health professional, to help with some of these really complex issues, because some, frankly, sometimes I may see this as the problem, but I may not know what the remedy is. or I may not know what will help a person get past stuck. Yes, yep.
Scott Weiner:I think you do very, very well, at actually remedy imagining, I think he did really well at that. You may not believe there's a lot of time, in some of the cases we've worked on together where, oh, man, it wouldn't have mattered a bit what I did.
Shawn Weber:I admit freely that I'm good at what I do.
Scott Weiner:But I mean, and I, you know, I think I admit freely that. And I guess I admit for all of us that our powers are not endless.
Shawn Weber:You know, sometimes, I mean, I just cannot connect perhaps with a client in a way that Shawn can. And so it's helpful to have a team approach. You know, I mean, sometimes a client, candidly will push my buttons, and I find them difficult to interact with. And I will literally say to Sean, I need help with this man or this lady. I'm not, I'm not have getting a connection. And that can happen to all any one of us is that we've got someone that just doesn't quite fit our parameter of the perfect client.
Scott Weiner:What happens? What happens with Shawn, when you and I say to each other? No, are you take it? No, you take
Shawn Weber:them? I know, Scott, I don't know.
Scott Weiner:What makes you think, you know, I
Shawn Weber:did want to say to clients or clients, I took the husband out of the room. And I took him into the small conference room and I said, Well, you've done it. I said, he said, What? I said, You've stumped the mediator. I am out of ideas. I've got no nothing left. And I threw the line out. One thing we didn't try is generosity. What if he offered something that you're willing to give up and see what happens? And I actually did break the logjam. But I literally felt like I got nothing left here, you know, well, there, there are moments like that, where you're like, Oh, this is never gonna settle. And then all of a sudden, they pull a rabbit out of the hat, they settle. And sometimes just laying down that reality is that I don't know what to do next here and I got some experience. So you're going to have to come up with something because the whole point of collaborative or mediation is that the clients have a role and a responsibility. It's not just about us. I've had cases where I've wanted to history authentically walk out of the room.
Scott Weiner:Well, you hit a table once pretty hard slam a table pretty
Shawn Weber:hard one time. I have had cases where Okay, I'm done. I'm not working with the people anymore. I'm leaving the room and then they begged me to come back and then they settle the case. So I mean, that happens, you know, and the thing is recognizing that we're also human, you know, in If you're out there listening to this, and you're working with a professional just realize they've got human reactions to, we have egos that can be bruised, and we. We try to keep our egos out of it. But it does happen. Yeah, well, I thought we burned through another episode.
Scott Weiner:Probably God burning is right.
Shawn Weber:Time flies when you're having fun, we talked about stuff here. But this is, I mean this is these deep emotional needs these deep emotional pains really are what make Divorce Law matrimonial law interesting for the professionals, and challenging for the people that are going through it. And it's important to cut yourself some slack. And if you need the help of a mental health professional, by all means, and doesn't mean you have to do therapy, you just get a good coach who can just kind of help you know what to do when you have to sit across the table from this person that is causing you so much distress. And I have seen clients learn techniques that they felt uncomfortable with to start with that seems like a contrivance and then they try it. And it's actually quite effective. And they often will change their approach based upon that. I Lord, it works.
Scott Weiner:Yeah, if it saves feelings, it saves pain it you know, it gets you to the other side of a difficult, you know, issue. Yeah, it's very, it's very gratifying. It's very gratifying. I think that this work is some of the hard and most conflict laden work that I've, I've done in my life actually doing this divorce coaching.
Shawn Weber:When I train people in the collaborative model, Scott, I always said, this is the hardest work you will ever love. Yeah, I do. And that's how I feel about it. I do
Scott Weiner:love it. I mean,
Shawn Weber:there are those moments and this is what gets my juices pumping is there's those moments where a change occurs. Yeah, there's a transformation in the relationship. Yeah, maybe we we aren't able to save the marriage, the marriages, they're getting divorced for a reason. But they're able to get to a place where they can agree on something and move on and not have the same anger and pain. I can think of two cases cases. two cases I was involved in this year, where I literally said and thanked the clients and said that was beautiful. You both gave you both contributed and you came up with a solution twice this year, which is pretty good odds. Yeah, we've, we've been involved in a couple of cases like that, Mark. Yeah. Yeah. There are some cases that I say a happy ending on a divorce case is when you can you can leave the marriage without feeling hatred and anger and pain and you can see a future. Yeah. And that was doesn't always happen every case. Sometimes people just feel just tremendous despair. And it takes a while but sometimes it does.
Scott Weiner:How come you guys only bring me in on the ones where all the hatred is?
Shawn Weber:Because we need you. We need you on those tough ones because oh my god, it's we've gotten beyond our paygrade we need to really, we explained this earlier if you're paying attention.
Scott Weiner:I wasn't on the call yet.
Shawn Weber:All right. Thank you everyone. This was a pleasure to do I
Scott Weiner:just it's it's great to be with you guys. Y'all guys. Scott guys are some of my favorite difficult people.
Shawn Weber:I strive to be difficult whenever I can. So Scott, if I needed to get ahold of you to help work through anger and pain, what would they do?
Scott Weiner:Well, they'd have to call me on the telephone. And as Mark was teasing me earlier, and you regularly do my my primitive connection to the universe is merely by cell phone. I am not a web entity. Oh, I'm so behind it. Hey, guys, I sound young on the podcast, but I am a geezer Give me that.
Shawn Weber:I was already on the phone. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, well, what number
Scott Weiner:they would call me 619 the old San Diego registry 619-417-5743. And as Mark teased me about earlier, yes, I do answer my own phone. And I am I am a clinical psychologist. I'm also a lawyer. I'm an active in the bar, but I I am watering Syme in some ways, a rather useful coach to to folks who are going through some of these things.
Shawn Weber:I really agree with Mark If someone needed to talk to you about the financial side of things, what would they need to do? Well, I don't think we even have telephones anymore. So we do have a website it's called pack divorce.com. I'm a certified financial planner certified divorce financial analyst. We have a contact form on there and our phone number. If you have a question related to divorce and finances, we happy to hear
Scott Weiner:from you. spell it out for the mark. pacdivorce.com
Mark Hill:pacdivorce.com
Shawn Weber:Could Could I fax you something? You know, I think I do have a fax number. No idea what it is. Yeah.
Scott Weiner:Do you guys effects don't you? Yeah,
Shawn Weber:um, we have something, but I don't think anyone's used it in about five years. Join us for all the Victrola. If you need to solve a dispute and you need a dispute resolver go to weberdisputeresolution.com and we will connect you with a dispute resolution expert who can help you solve your case. Adele Weber, Weber like the grill with one be weberdisputeresolution.com. Alright guys, good. Good. Good talk.
Scott Weiner:Nice to see you.
Shawn Weber:Thanks, guys. Bye. Bye Bye. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Three Wise Men of divorce, money, psych, and law. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe. leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique. So no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.