The Three Wisemen of Divorce: Money, Psych & Law
The Three Wisemen of Divorce: Money, Psych & Law
Transforming Anger in Divorce: Insights and Strategies with Dr. James Walton
What if you could transform anger into a tool for growth and understanding? We bring you a thought-provoking conversation with Dr. James Walton, Ph.D., a licensed family therapist and Eureka Award recipient. Together, we explore the intricate dynamics of anger during divorce and offer practical strategies for managing these intense emotions. Learn how to separate feeling angry from outward expressions of anger and why making conscious choices about our reactions is vital for healthy communication.
Sit down with us as we unpack techniques to handle difficult conversations with grace, especially when emotions run high. Ever wondered how to stay calm and collected? Discover the power of pausing conversations, modeling calm behavior, and reframing complaints into constructive proposals. Dr. Walton shares invaluable insights on how feeling heard and validated can significantly reduce anger. Additionally, we delve into the importance of creating a mission statement to guide respectful interactions, both in personal and professional settings.
But that's not all! Our conversation takes a deeper turn as we discuss managing conflicts during meetings, employing "I" statements, and the role of curiosity in resolving disputes. Dr. Walton offers wisdom on understanding the underlying emotions masked by anger, such as fear or shame, and how family history impacts relationship dynamics. We also highlight the importance of professional dispute resolvers and the benefits of restorative practices. Whether you're navigating divorce or just seeking better ways to communicate, this episode is packed with actionable advice and heartfelt stories to help you foster healthier, more constructive relationships.
Here's a shout-out to Feedspot, who recognized The Three Wisemen of Divorce as one of California's top law podcasts!
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Well, gentlemen, guess what? What we have been honored by Feedspot. You can go to a URL podcastsfeedspotcom and they rate podcasts and we are among the 20 best California law podcasts.
Peter Roussos:Which begs the question how many legal podcasts are there in California? Well, that's a very good question.
Mark Hill:Well, apparently, from the website I'm looking at here, there are 551. And we are in the top 20.
Shawn Weber:We are indeed Well, according to this, we're number nine. I don't know what the criteria is.
Peter Roussos:We're in the top 10.
Shawn Weber:We're in the top 10. So don't even you know. Yeah, really Well, I want to know how much of these other people suck for us to be in the top 10.
Peter Roussos:No, how much did they, the eight, have to pay?
Mark Hill:to get above us.
Shawn Weber:To get above us, right? Yeah, really, but no, I think.
Peter Roussos:I say the election is rigged.
Mark Hill:The election is rigged. The election is rigged, yes, yes.
Peter Roussos:Well you know, I used to identify as a legal podcast, but now I identify as a divorce podcast.
Shawn Weber:OK, well guys all kidding aside, I think this is really cool. I think it's a singular honor and I'm very pleased and happy. No, I think it's a singular honor and I'm very pleased and happy.
Mark Hill:Yeah, very, very appreciative that people out there are paying attention, because we do put a lot of real effort into this. As irreverent as we may appear at sometimes, this is serious stuff and we really hope that it helps people.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, so just a shout out to Feedspot F-E-E-D-S-P-O-T. Their URL is podcastsfeedspotcom and then the one we're on is just that website with forward slash, california underscore law, underscore podcasts. So if you want to find us on there and other, there's other. I'm actually going to check out some of these other podcasts because they look good and we're just pleased that people are listening to something that we're doing yes, many, many thanks for each spot.
Shawn Weber:Very cool, thank you welcome to the three wise men of divorce money, psych and law podcast. Sit down with the california divorce experts financial divorce consultant Mark Hill, psychologist Scott Weiner and attorney Sean Weber for a frank and casual conversation about divorce, separation, co-parenting and the difficult decisions real people like you face during these tough times. We know that if you are looking at divorce or separation, it can be scary and overwhelming. With combined experience of over 70 years in divorce and conflict management, we are here for you and look forward to helping by sharing our unique ideas, thoughts and perspectives on divorce, separation and co-parenting.
Dr. James Walton:Hi, sean, it's nice to see you.
Shawn Weber:Hi James, hi Pete, hi Mark, hi. So James, welcome to the Three Wise Men of Divorce. Well, thank you.
Dr. James Walton:You may find us to be the three foolish men of divorce, but no, I'll take you at your word that you're the three wise men, so so so James is.
Shawn Weber:This is James Walton, he's a PhD, he'sa he is a psychologist and you're a licensed family therapist. Yes, la area. I've known James through our work with Collaborative Practice California, which is the statewide California group for promoting collaborative practice and peacemaking in the state of California, and James was just awarded the Eureka Award. Congratulations.
Peter Roussos:That's actually very prestigious.
Dr. James Walton:Thank you, I was really shocked by it. Actually, I was in the middle of dinner and I'm listening to them talking about the guy and I thought I should know this person.
Shawn Weber:I think everyone on this podcast right now is a Eureka Award recipient. I think all of us have received it at one point or another, so you are among elite people. Wow, I feel honored. Now I feel like we're the four wise men of divorce. But you, you do a lot of work with um divorcing couples in los angeles. You do a lot of counseling, I know you do a lot of collaborative coaching I do, and your website it's latherapistcom. Yes, and there's just a treasure trove of information there, things that you can purchase and download.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, I try to put a lot of information on there for people that they can just some useful information and there's some free stuff that people can information on there for people that they can just they can some useful information. And there's some free stuff that people can download on there as well that can be helpful for them. And I know we're going to be talking about anger today and anger the thing that I want people to really understand about anger that it's the handmaiden of a divorce. So when people are going through divorce, they're going to be experiencing anger and that's a normal, natural thing for people.
Dr. James Walton:And to understand that anger is both an emotion and it's both a behavior. So it's emotion and behavior. And the thing is about emotions is they kind of overwhelm us and take us over and we may not have a whole lot of control over how we feel about something, but we have a whole lot of control over how we express it and we have a whole lot of control over our behavior and what we're going to do. So when it comes to anger and divorce, we have this delicate balance between what we're feeling and then how we want to express it, and the fulcrum or the center point of that is you is the decisions that you make, and we're the ones that are really in control of what we say and what we do and we're the ones that are really in control of what we say and what we do.
Shawn Weber:I love that. Yeah, there's that space between that stimulus and response, right when somebody says something that's triggering to me and I can then choose in that space of reaction how I'm going to behave then after that.
Dr. James Walton:Right, yeah, but the thing is, a lot of people just they experience an emotion and immediately they react and respond and they say I can't help it. You know you made me angry. Well, actually, what we need to understand is nobody makes you angry but yourself, and you know how we make ourselves angry.
Shawn Weber:How do we do that?
Dr. James Walton:By the thoughts we tell ourselves about the situation. Yeah okay, so you can take any angering situation you like and you can just imagine I'm going to put 100 people in a room. Will all 100 people be angry about that? Chances are no.
Mark Hill:About that, chances are no, and that's because each person is telling themselves something a little different about whatever that experience is, one thing I find that happens, james, is that sometimes a couple will get in front of me and finally they have what they perceive as an arbiter who will listen to their arguments and tell them they're right, and you know that's. We have to disavow them of that very quickly, and I always urge people you know, I think I'm telling the same story but in a different way. I said how can we be strategic about this rather than emotional? How can this become part of the strategy for you to get what you want? That is making you frustrated right now.
Dr. James Walton:That's great. What you're doing is you're taking them out of you know what we could call left right brain, where there are emotions, and you're putting them into left brain, which is, let's, how are we going to solve this? Pulling them away from their emotional experiences. Sometimes people have a real hard time getting out of that and they kind of look at us as judges, like we're going to sit there and we're going to align with that person and say you over here, you're the bad one.
Mark Hill:It's this jerk and everything would be fine.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, when we're in those cases, I tell people look, we're not your judge, we're not the jury, we're here to help you express your desires, your interests and even your emotions. Because sometimes, when people are able to express what they're feeling, but they have to put it into words, you know people like will slam the table with their fist and they think they're expressing a feeling and they're not. They're expressing pounding a fist, and when they do that, the recipient has to process what that means to them, and so whatever their history about someone slamming a fist on the table means to them brings up a reaction. It's not clear communication. Now you're having to deal with not only slamming the fist on the table, but you have to deal with the original issue. That was about the anger. So what I let people know is like okay, so when you do a physical action like that, you're not putting it into words. Put your anger into words, tell people what you're angry about.
Shawn Weber:Oh, it's like what I used to tell my kids use your words, yeah, but I mean that's really powerful because and kind of going back to what Mark was saying the strategic approach, the strategic thinking OK is pounding on the table, really accomplishing what you want here. What do you want? That's why I always come back to what do you want? You're angry about something? What is it that you want to change? And get them to articulate that instead of pounding on a table.
Dr. James Walton:Right, because when you pound on a table, what do you do? You create fear, yeah, and what happens when you create?
Shawn Weber:fear. People go into all kinds of crazy fight or flight places right.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, they back away, they cover their ears, they want to get away from the thing that's frightening them. That's their first impulse. And you're not creating conversation. You're not getting across the point you want to get across because when you're creating fear, you're trying to dominate, and if you're using your anger to dominate the other person, you don't have a dialogue. There's no conversation going on. And if that person who's afraid acquiesces because of your big emotions, you're going to create resentment. And now resentment becomes a toxin in the negotiating and it becomes a toxin in in in that relationship moving forward. Because acquiescence is not collaborative, acquiescence is not all people are being heard. It's one person being crushed and another one dominating.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, I had a person that came in the other day and they said I need to hire you because you know my husband won't do what I tell him. And I thought, OK, this is going to go well. And then she spent the whole time just kind of yelling at him and screaming at him and and I said, you know, maybe we ought to come up with a different strategy. So no, I'm, I'm going to stand up to him. He's going to hear what I have to say. And I kept asking her well, what do you think that's accomplishing in getting what you want? So, is what you want just to yell at him, or is what you want something else?
Dr. James Walton:Well, sean, you really bring up a great point here, and that is she is saying he's going to hear what I have to say.
Shawn Weber:Damn it, she's going to hear this right.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, one of the best ways of getting somebody to drop their anger is allowing them to feel like they've been heard, and so if she is saying damn it he or I don't know if you can swear on this show.
Dr. James Walton:Can you believe that? Okay, Like damn it, You've got to listen to me. You don't? You never hear what I'm saying? Well, there's a clue right there that this person doesn't feel like she's being heard. There's a clue right there that this person doesn't feel like she's being heard. So we have to create, maybe, an environment where she can be heard but be able to express herself in her big girl words, rather than in yelling and shouting, which is acting out right.
Mark Hill:Peter, years ago we had a case together with you and Blima and that's like Peter. Years ago we had a case together with you and Blima and I remember I was very as the neutral. I was very anxious that they were starting to have this fight and I wanted to fix them and I wanted to stop it and I wanted to jump in and you guys just let them go. And I felt secure enough with you guys there that if they had to be stopped, you would stop them. And then, when we debriefed it later, the synopsis that I took away from it was well, they just had to have that conversation, as heated as it was.
Peter Roussos:Well, one of the things that I'll often say to people in a conversation like that is hey, is this the conversation that the two of you think you need to have? Because if it is, I don't want to get in the way of it. It doesn't look particularly effective or efficient to me, and I think what that connects with is really, for shifts towards better communication to happen, there has to be personal responsibility, has to be taken for self-management, the way that people are managing themselves, particularly when they're upset. I'm always curious and often will say to people hey, do you ever get really pissed off at work the way you're feeling towards your spouse or soon to be ex-spouse now? And most people say oh, absolutely. Well, do you ever talk to your boss or colleagues the way you talk to your spouse? And usually the answer is no and I'll say well, why I wouldn't get away with it, which is a really powerful acknowledgement of self-management and personal responsibility that they're not taking in at least the conversations that they're having with their spouse for example.
Dr. James Walton:Absolutely it is, and in fact it's about their understanding that they're in control. Right, they have control of what they're going to say, and they're not going to say the same thing to their boss that they would to their spouse, although they might be the same feelings, they've moderated themselves. And so you don't want people like if you have people exploding in your office at each other and screaming, you don't want them to continue that kind of conversation, because that actually doesn't create anything positive at the end of it. There are too many toxic emotions happening at that moment, so you want to stop it somehow. You want to get them to separate and then maybe talk each of them down and come back to have that conversation. We're not avoiding it, but we're avoiding that emotionality.
Peter Roussos:Well, I would say, james, that 95% of the time when I say to a couple, if you need to have this conversation the way that you're having it, I'm not going to get in the way of it 95% of the time that is enough of a pause for them to stop themselves and to say, no, this isn't effective, and to begin a shift.
Mark Hill:Or even greet them I do a similar thing, pete. I say you know, we can keep going down this road if you think it's going to be productive and help the case move forward more quickly. And I'm greeted by silence, total silence. And then I have to restart the conversation, you know, in a way that hopefully brings the valence down.
Shawn Weber:You know, one of the things I like to do you've seen me do this, mark, somebody's just completely losing it, and I sit back for a moment and let them kind of do what they're going to do. And then I'm like, ok, hang on, let me help. And then I'll actually model the breathing. I'll go OK, that was hard, wasn't it? And I'll go okay, that was hard, wasn't it. And I'll pause. Can we talk about this in a way that maybe is more effective, you know? And then we'll go through the coaching and helping them kind of interact on that.
Mark Hill:But I think another thing you'll do, Sean, is you'll say I think I hear a proposal. Yeah, Can we put this in terms of a proposal?
Shawn Weber:Because then you're moving them onto the other side of the brain as James just said yeah, a complaint is a proposal in disguise.
Dr. James Walton:I always say yeah, yeah, excellent, that is an excellent thing to do is to get them into the left side of the brain with their thoughts. Sometimes, if it's really drastic, you can knock over a glass of water.
Shawn Weber:They want to help, or, unlike the couple I had that actually hurled a cup of hot coffee at each other. That's not what you're talking about, but like just inadvertently knock over a glass of water.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, and you could do that. It completely disrupts everything that's going on. I love it, and people sometimes have a compulsion to try to help to clean it up and say, oh, you can work together, so let's work together on this. That's clever, but it you know it can stop everything for a moment and get them to refocus. You can also say you can also say to them okay, what did you hear her say to you? Because the way that you can drain anger off is people first of all being able to say okay, what you're saying, I heard what you said. What you said makes sense. I don't agree with it, but what you said makes sense to me and when people feel heard, their anger level drops dramatically.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, so I guess I want to kind of pivot a little bit. Um, if I'm the, if I'm a person going through the divorce, so we know what we're going to do. But if I'm a person going through the divorce and I'm just feeling rage right in the meeting, or I know I'm afraid I'm going to fear rage, I've had people say I can't even be in the same room, this person. I lose my mind, right, right. Um, what would you say to that person as far as preparing for the meeting and and then managing themselves during the meeting so they can be productive and not just simply a rage fest?
Dr. James Walton:Well, first I would create a mission statement, right, and I'd have them well-versed in their mission statement and one of the things might be we speak to each other respectfully.
Dr. James Walton:Usually I get that put in there somewhere and we are able to control our anger. If it's someone like that, you get that put in there somewhere. So, yeah, I get the commitment to that before we go into the meeting. And then I ask I say, look, if I feel like we're going off that part of the mission statement, do I have your permission to stop the meeting and for us to either take a break and calm ourselves down or to recalibrate ourselves during the meeting and get a yes from them? So if something is starting to go off the rails, that's already prepped in the background and I'll say I think right now is a good time for us to take a break, because when people are really angry with ourselves and we're angry with each other, you're not going to get any logic out of them, you're not going to get any agreements out of them and they're not even hearing what the other person's saying. So, really, when they're going at it, you want to separate them. You want to do something to break that Break that cycle.
Dr. James Walton:Break that cycle, get them centered again so that they can come back in and kind of refresh, and then, like off on the side, I would say, okay, let's do some breathing, because we've practiced breathing. The first thing you want to do is get your heart rate down when you're angry, because if your heart rate is racing too fast it knocks off your cognitive processing. You want to get out of. There's a little jargon I'll throw in. Your deep limbic system is where you have the emotional experiences. You want to bring the prefrontal cortex, which is where logic and reasoning go on. You want to bring that back online and so, off on your own, you want to do some breathing with them to help recenter them and then say, okay, what's your priority here? What is it that you want the other person to know, because screaming and raging at them isn't going to help. What is it that you want them to know about you? What is it that you want them to understand?
Mark Hill:And let's find some words to use that, and use I words, not you words.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, yeah. Talk about yourself. Yeah, exactly.
Mark Hill:When I've tried to move in that direction. Well, you always and you never, always and never are words that I always. I tend to find our conversation stoppers, not starters.
Dr. James Walton:They are. Yeah, that's very true. You want people to talk about I, how I feel, or what my needs are. Very true, you want people to talk about I, how I feel, or what my needs are, um, not what you never do. Yeah, again, you is one of those words where people pull back and you want to bring them towards you I always say the sith only deal in absolutes, you know.
Shawn Weber:so this, this, whenever it's an absolute statement never and always. Really, is it really never? Is it really always? Yeah, you get down to OK. Well, what is the thing that you want to change? So that come back to what I always say. The complaint is is a proposal in disguise. So what is? There's something you're upset about that's making you agitated, uncomfortable, angry, and that's a state of affairs that you want to change. So let's articulate what you want to change so that maybe you won't be in a state of anger all the time.
Dr. James Walton:I mean, maybe you will, but Well, you just put it in a request form, don't you? You say, okay, what do you want to request of the other person?
Shawn Weber:I would like you to stop leaving your toenail clippings on the coffee table.
Dr. James Walton:Okay, excellent. And then how I might coach somebody into saying that is I would like you to stop leaving your toenail clippings on the on the coffee table and give a reason why because it, because it looks really disgusting to me and and it makes me feel really upset. And then you can put the request in would you mind not doing that? Would you mind scooping them up or whatever the request would be? And you get you know, yes, no, or I'll think about it.
Shawn Weber:And do you find, James, that there's anger? I've heard this before Anger is a secondary emotion to something else.
Dr. James Walton:Many times it is, many times it is, sometimes it's not, but many times it is, and the secondary emotions might be shame or grief or fear or hurt. And if you can get them to acknowledge or name what, those like they're angry. Okay, what's behind the anger? Well, I'm afraid. What are you afraid of? I'm afraid that I'm going to be alone and homeless. Okay, so, let's verbalize that. Um, alone and homeless, and? And? Okay, so, let's, let's verbalize that. So so, instead of like just raging, express, you know, I'm afraid, I'm really afraid I'm going to be homeless. Well, now we can address that right.
Mark Hill:It gives an entree, doesn't it? Because I can say now that we can look at your finances, we can go through your cash flow, we can help you model something so that you won't be living under a bus shelter.
Dr. James Walton:Exactly yeah, because that gives us something to do. Now we can address that interest that they have. Right, because what we really want to do is we want to get down to the interests, and the interests are the reasons why they have those positions. So we want to look at the reasons.
Peter Roussos:I think when folks are angry too, it's harder for people to define what they want and much easier to define what they don't want and to lead with that and how. That can very much be experienced by the other person as a criticism or a complaint. That makes effective communication that much more challenging as well.
Dr. James Walton:Absolutely. You know, one of the biggest challenges we have in life is knowing really what we want. I mean, you ask somebody, well, what is it that you want out of life? And they give you a couple of generalized things and then it's like, well, tell me more, what do you really want? And it's really hard for people to figure that out. And I think when they get angry like this, it's they're demanding the other person to tell them what it is that they want. It's your responsibility to tell me what I want.
Mark Hill:If you knew, if you loved me, you'd know what I want.
Dr. James Walton:That is so common.
Mark Hill:But you know really, if you love me or if I loved you, I would tell you what I want.
Shawn Weber:It's like the old song If she knew what she wanted, he'd be giving it to her Right.
Mark Hill:Well, that's when I come back and say well, you, you know, maybe you guys ought to consider a divorce right, exactly, which is a great, uh, you know, reality refocus, it helps people, refocus that they're not here to you know, in our presence to work on the relationship that has. Hopefully we can assist them in becoming, say, better co-parents or having better communication. Perhaps that, as a side effect of what we're doing, would be great and that's certainly aspirational, although, as we all know, sometimes it's just triage at the end, getting them through, getting it done.
Dr. James Walton:Well, hopefully, what we can do especially if there's some mental health on the team is help them transition to a different relationship, because if they're a family, they're always going to be a family, regardless of the marital status, and so you want to help them transition into different ways of communicating. So now they're not going to be, you know, in a marriage, but they're still going to be communicating about the children.
Shawn Weber:That's so true, james. I mean, I always hear I already did, always. I'm a Sith I hear a lot folks saying, well, I can't have that conversation with him because it never works out, or I can't have that conversation with her because it never works out. And I always frequently ask the question well, have you tried that with a professional dispute resolver, you know, have you tried that with somebody that knows how to bridge the gaps and has techniques to help you find different ways to communicate? And? And the answer is frequently no, and then and then the. The question would then be well, would you like to learn new ways to talk about these issues that are typically hard for you and I? It's rare that you have somebody say, no, I don't want to find a way to communicate with this person.
Mark Hill:Right If they have kids.
Dr. James Walton:if they have kids I mean we use their kids relentlessly against them, right, yeah, right, if they have kids, I mean you, like you said, we're still family right and, and you know, a lot of times people drag you know what they saw in their own families into the marriage and they start behaving in the ways that their parents behaved in the unhealthy manners. Yeah, and so that there's a lot of gunk there that you have to work through.
Shawn Weber:Gunk that's the technical term gunk, gunk.
Dr. James Walton:Yes, it's in the DSM.
Mark Hill:It's in the DSM.
Shawn Weber:That sounds like jargon to me, but it's, it's descriptive though, like gunk, like it gunks up the works. It makes it hard for us to get what they're actually wanting. That's why I I do think, starting with the goals, starting the end in mind, what is it that you really want to accomplish here, right? And how is this particular behavior, this particular thought process, helping you get there, right? And most of the time, the answer is it's not. And so then, what's a different way to do this? Left brain thinking?
Dr. James Walton:Exactly, and the infighting that they did during the course of the marriage that got them to the point of divorce is now going to be present during the divorce and it's probably going to be amplified. So what we can expect during the course of the divorce is that their communication is going to get much worse.
Shawn Weber:It'll get worse before it gets better, right, oh?
Dr. James Walton:yeah, someone's trying to win.
Mark Hill:And I think in a way it has to be normalized, In other words, to tell them this is okay, this is hard, and you're going to be angry, you're going to be hurt. And a friend of mine, mediator from Colorado, used to say conflict is the spark that engenders creativity. So you can often say that the conflict actually is necessary in order to get the creativity going to come up with a solution.
Dr. James Walton:That is very well said. I completely believe that. You know, conflict really is the beginning of change. Conflict can be the beginning of an agreement. You can't have agreement without having had conflict.
Peter Roussos:Right.
Dr. James Walton:So we could also normalize conflict because there's healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict. Right, normalize conflict because there's healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict, right. There's healthy conflict where people can talk about things they don't agree on, and the healthy conflict can be about negotiating. Unhealthy would be, you know, screaming and yelling and closing it down. Healthy conflict is coming up with a variety of options. Unhealthy conflict is binary up with a variety of options.
Shawn Weber:unhealthy conflict is binary, it's just do it or yes or no, my way or the highway yeah, well, and the corollary to that is peace is not the absence of conflict, it's the absence of creative solutions to solve conflict or to deal with conflict. Say that again peace is not the absence of conflict, it's, it's the absence of creative solutions to deal with the conflict. Oh, I like that. You know, um, where I think sometimes people come to my office thinking that we're going to remove all conflict and we're not. We can't, the conflict is going to remain. That's why they're getting divorced. If there was no conflict, we'd just stay married, right, right. And we're talking about serious stuff here.
Shawn Weber:Like there can be a tendency on the part of the practitioner to kind of minimize what people are bringing to the meeting, to kind of minimize what people are bringing to the meeting. Like we're talking about betrayal. We're talking about trauma, fundamental pain that you know, that's fundamental to things that they feel are the most important in their lives, which is their family and their spouse and their marriage, and everything they'd hoped for and dreamt for is blowing up. And I think it's important to help our clients understand and people listening to this podcast maybe understand that you know, cut yourself some slack. Divorce sucks. This is hard, this is painful. We'd be worried about you if you were just fine. I always get worried about the couple where it just seems like they're just great with everything. And then we find that kryptonite and it explodes right in front of us.
Dr. James Walton:Right, Because they haven't learned how to. They haven't learned how to argue.
Shawn Weber:Yeah.
Dr. James Walton:And there's an art. There's an art to arguing in your relationship and it's it's okay to argue, it's okay to have to express anger Remember expressing anger with our words but it's really healthy too, couples that don't know how to argue that never get into the mud with each other. It's like an earthquake, right, they say in Los Angeles, if you have lots of little earthquakes, that sort of relieves the tension, but if you've gone without one for a really long time, it can be a big explosion. And that analogy does work for couples that don't have small arguments. And research has shown that couples that have little arguments all the time not destructive blaming arguments, but just like little disagreements, lots of little disagreements, and they settle them. Those are lasting relationships because they know how to handle it when it comes up A couple that doesn't have arguments, a couple that just goes along, along, along and then explodes. They don't know how to argue, they don't know how to solve it.
Mark Hill:My dad always used to say if there's no arguments in a marriage, they don't talk to each other. That's the only way that can be, in his opinion.
Peter Roussos:It's striking to me too how many couples I see who come in, and I'm always curious when I'm meeting people for the first time, you know what their goals and objectives are. And literally every single couple that I've ever worked with has said, usually very early on well, we don't, we don't communicate effectively. And I'm always curious what people mean by that. And what I found is it's not at all unusual, and when I asked, well, tell me more, they'll say well, we just don't understand each other.
Peter Roussos:And it's not at all unusual, quite common, where actually they understand each other quite well, they understand each other's position, but they don't agree. And they may not be communicating their understanding in a respectful and appropriate way, but they understand each other, but they don't agree and they haven't figured out an effective way for dealing with the reality that they don't agree. And I think part of what happens for couples that are going through a divorce they come into a divorce process and it concretizes their challenges in working through things that they don't agree and there's a grief process that's associated with that, as their marriage is ending. Agree, and there's a grief process that's associated with that, as their marriage is ending. But how do they navigate these basic lack of agreement?
Dr. James Walton:between them about key and important issues. Well, probably one of the things that's happening in that disagreement is they don't understand why the other person feels the way they do. They just have two positions, and if they don't have an understanding or feel like the other person has enough interest in why they are wanting a certain thing or why they're feeling a certain way, they're going to feel alienated, and the key ingredient there is curiosity.
Peter Roussos:Well, and I think, James, what also happens is I've had many people tell me- that and as I explore with them, you know, this might be having a conversation where one partner will be saying well, they just don't understand. And I'll talk with the other person who's able to communicate effectively, that they do understand. But I'm always curious, why do they withhold that effective lift that do understand, but I'm always curious, why do they withhold that? And the response is often I don't want him or her to think that I agree with them, so in their own mind they're conflating the two.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, because we can understand the other person without saying I agree with your position, but you're absolutely right that people are so afraid of giving up their power or feeling like they're acquiescing by acknowledging the other person, and it's so far from that.
Peter Roussos:That's not true, almost as though if you understand or if the person thinks that you're agreeing, there's this obligation that goes with that and teasing that out and helping people to understand. No, now, those can be tough conversations where I understand perfectly but I don't agree.
Dr. James Walton:Those are tough conversations to have, but being able to discern those, you know, it's kind of like a waiter carrying a plate of food. You know you have to have this. You have to be mindful of the balance, and what I'm thinking of is that plate is respect. The one thing that people are afraid of is if they show respect to the other person I'm acquiescing, and that's not the case but when we feel we're not respected, that really triggers us into feeling angry. Disrespecting another is one of the biggest triggers for people of getting their anger, of making them really upset.
Mark Hill:And I see that so much when there's an affair. Oh yeah, I mean, that's the ultimate disrespect and what does that do to the process we're dealing with? How do you restore that to the point where you can at least have a conversation and not have that anger that comes from that undermine, those?
Dr. James Walton:not have that anger that comes from that undermine those. It's actually the aggrieved person being able to express their hurt and their disappointment and having it heard by the other person. And if they, without screaming and yelling at them, but to have their hurt be expressed and have the other person acknowledge the hurt.
Mark Hill:As opposed to saying, well, if you were a better partner in the marriage, I wouldn't have needed to have an affair.
Dr. James Walton:Well, that's disrespectful right.
Mark Hill:Yeah, and that's what often comes back, or at least I've seen the comeback. I'm not a professional at this, but I sometimes find myself stuck in a situation where I kind of have to play a psychologist on TV, and it's often. You can refer, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink, and no matter how many times I can recommend bringing in a mental health professional to assist with this, often the response I'll get from both is no. We went through years of therapy. That doesn't work, we're not doing that again and that's hard to counter.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, and sometimes people go to therapy to prove that it's unfixable. Right, that's so true. Yeah, they'll go in, they'll give it a shot and they'll say I tried everything, now I can get divorced.
Mark Hill:Like two or three sessions.
Dr. James Walton:Right Three. You're doing well if you get to three with that.
Mark Hill:I knew this wouldn't work, I've just pruned it.
Shawn Weber:Right, we've been talking a lot about the point of view of the person who is angry and I think we're starting to hit on the point of view of the person that is receiving the anger. To hit on the point of view of the person that is receiving the anger, what recommendations would you have for that person? So your spouse is raging at you during the session and is very angry. Maybe the best advice you can give is get really reactive and really defensive and make sure you tell them off in the process.
Dr. James Walton:That's not good advice that's probably not the best advice to give what would you say? Well, I would. First of all, you don't let people stand up when they're angry. You get them to sit back down okay you do because yeah yeah, move into up into action.
Dr. James Walton:Sitting is a way of containing it better.
Dr. James Walton:Containing it so you get them to sit back down, um, and then make sure they don't have a weapon in their hand, and that could be anything from a Kleenex box to a to a glass of water. Get them to put stuff down If you really think something's going to happen, and then you might then suggest that we separate, we take a break, let's take a break, let's get ourselves under, you know, in a better condition. If you tell ourselves under control, that's going to feel offensive to the person who's angry, but it's like let's, let's get ourselves in a place where we can communicate better and separate them out, because you can't get anything. You can't get anything done when people are screaming at each other. You have to get, you have to get the heart rate down, you have to get the breathing going, breathing, deep breathing. I like to tell people to take inhale through the nose for four seconds, hold it in the lungs for four seconds and the next health or your mouth, and just do that until you find yourself calming down.
Shawn Weber:I guess I say I'm the person that's, maybe I'm the guy that had the affair Right, and my wife is just. Everything that comes out of her mouth is some kind of a slight or a put down about me. What do I do to manage myself in that moment?
Dr. James Walton:You have to tell yourself in that moment that I'm in control of my responses, that I am the. I decide how I'm going to respond and what I'm going to say. I decide how I'm going to respond and what I'm going to say. If she is coming at you like that, you're going to have to disconnect from it somehow and not perceive yourself as you know. It's like I can choose how I'm going to respond to this. I am. I always recommend people at that point to really step in and get curious. Tell me more about your upset. I want to hear about your upset. I want to hear about your anger.
Dr. James Walton:Step into the space rather than running from it, because if we run from the space, what we're telling the person is my feelings and my situation is more important than yours. So if I get defensive, when we get defensive, we are actually asking that person to step in and attack more. It's a dance. In fact, timothy Leary had a thing called the Leary Wheel. He was a psychiatrist for the CIA. He wasn't some little flower child out there running around, he was a scientist.
Dr. James Walton:He was a psychiatrist for the CIA and he came up with something called the Leary Wheel and one of the concepts of the Leary wheel is it's a dance that people do in their communication, and one of those dances opposite from the wheel, is the attacker and the defender. And the defender and the attacker are in a dance, and the way that you break the dance is either the attacker stop attacking or the defender stop defending, because if you're defending yourself, you're inviting the attack. So if you can really screw it up by saying OK, I want to hear what you have to say, tell me more. The curiosity.
Shawn Weber:That's the curiosity, as opposed to responding. But you always left your toenails on the coffee table, and so I had to have an affair and it was your fault. Tell me more about that.
Dr. James Walton:I want to hear how that worked for you. How was that for you that the toenails created the affair?
Peter Roussos:I remember being in a training many, many years ago with Pete Pearson and he talked about the importance of helping partners to be curious rather than furious.
Dr. James Walton:Excellent. I love that.
Peter Roussos:And that's a powerful way to represent it to people. People get that.
Shawn Weber:You know it's correct because it rhymes.
Shawn Weber:And it will exhaust the other side because eventually they'll run out of things to be pissed off about I actually tried that on a relative who was very, uh, politically minded in a different way than I am, and I just asked well, tell me what brings you to that conclusion? You know, in a, j and I was actually what changed about, as is I was not. You know, you always say you want to listen, to listen, not listen to reply, listen to understand. So I was actually legitimately curious how this person could have come to this, what I thought was a bizarre conclusion. It was a bizarre conclusion and logic was off the rails, but I understand him better. I understand how he got.
Peter Roussos:There was off the rails, but I understand him better, I understand how he got there and it enabled me to have a conversation with this person whose views I view as nuts, but I was able to understand them better and we didn't end up fighting, which is usually what happens when we talk about these things, don, if we go back to this scenario that you were describing and this isn't always possible but if there is the opportunity on the front end to prepare for a conversation like that, one of the things that I would want to talk with that person about is, again, this idea of personal responsibility and how he or she thinks of their decision to have an affair, and how willing are they to really try to understand the pain that it caused the other person.
Peter Roussos:And, in that spirit of taking personal responsibility, how upset does the other person get to be? And, if they're able to think of it in those terms, to to perhaps understand that part of that person's pain and their anger is something that is a result of their actions? Does that allow them to ground themselves, to be more curious, to be more effective in their own self-management, so that that other person, the partner, can say what they need to say?
Shawn Weber:That other person, the partner, can say what they need to say. You're reminding me of a case I had where there was an affair and the poor wife she was devastated by this affair, but she looked like she'd swallowed a lemon the entire time and she kept talking about the mistress. The husband kept saying things like well, these things don't happen in a vacuum, you know that kind of thing. And finally I realized she just needed to express. So what I did in this and maybe you, james, you can give me some critique on this I just said to the husband and the attorney was there and the attorneys were present and I got buy-in. I said I'm gonna say some things. I'm gonna, I'm gonna repeat back to you what is making your wife so angry with you, the, the behaviors, the things that she wants to change, what's upsetting her. I want you to listen carefully and I want you to not respond. I want you to just bend over and take it like a man. That's what I told him that was good, and so I did that.
Shawn Weber:I did that, I, I, I I told this woman's point of view from the mediators. You know, as a mediator, kind of acting as a translator, I used the best neutral language I could but basically articulated what was making her so upset. She felt, felt better. He wasn't necessarily thrilled, but he wasn't biting bag.
Dr. James Walton:And you could have put a little capper on that too and say does this make sense to you? Not that you agree with it.
Shawn Weber:Does it make sense to you?
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, does it make sense to you. And if he were to say, yes, that makes sense to me, that's reasonable, I could see where she's coming from. Yes, that makes sense to me, that's reasonable, I could see where she's coming from. That would immediately dispel the anger on her side. You would see that starting to come down.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, well, and that's what happened with this case. I mean, she changed from that moment forward because she was seen for the first time.
Dr. James Walton:Or she felt that she was seen. People have big emotions because they want to be seen. The bigger they get, the more you're able to see them. Is what's happening behind that? My emotions are big because I want to be seen. The moment I'm seen. I don't need to put that much energy into the emotions. I can conserve that energy. Now, if you wanted to really really make this, tie this up in a nice bow and I'm not saying that most people going through divorce wouldn't do this. But after saying that makes sense to me if you were to say, is there anything I can do to make this up to you, that would, yes, give me all the money. Match point.
Shawn Weber:Put yourself in a car and drive off a cliff. Yeah Well, I think you're right, though I think if the people have the ability to ask that question, that means we've crossed a threshold, right.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, and that might be a pre-divorce thing. If people can do that before they get to divorce, that might be something that turns it around off the cliff. Can I make this up to you?
Peter Roussos:And James, I'm thinking, can I make this up to you, or even an apology? I remember reading about research looking at malpractice suits for medical doctors and and how different the outcome of those cases is when those hospitals or those doctors from the get go acknowledge their mistakes and apologize to the parties.
Mark Hill:You know that that those settlements are lower, that type of thing. But often the insurance company will say don't admit to any fault. Right.
Dr. James Walton:Right, right, right. The lawyers in the insurance companies are saying don't admit to fault, right. But I've read that same study and there's a lot of truth in it. There's a lot of truth in it.
Shawn Weber:Well, we've seen from things like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa where, you know, we've actually had people speak to some of our professional groups where this ability to just tell the story of what happened and it's okay to tell that story and it's okay to admit when you were wrong and what was powerful about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is, as long as you told the truth, you were immune and it was marvelous healing that happened as a result of that. Was it perfect? Probably not, but I think it went a long way for that for South Africa, and it's been tried in other places like rwanda, where they had genocide, and other places.
Shawn Weber:Um, northern ireland northern ireland it was tried and and every time it's tried, there's this powerful ability to maybe not fix the problem but to be able to move on from the hurt, because people as you acknowledge you acknowledge it happened. Yeah, yeah.
Mark Hill:We're talking serious things.
Shawn Weber:We're talking about like war crimes, yeah.
Dr. James Walton:Yeah, they actually did a form of that in Pennsylvania as diversion for diversion programs. It's called restorative practice.
Peter Roussos:Oh, interesting.
Dr. James Walton:And in restorative practice, you get the person who did the offense and the person that was hurt. You get them in a space together and then you talk about like the offender, the perpetrator, what happened, what were you thinking about at the time that you were committing this crime or you were doing this thing or you were hitting or whatever it was that they were doing? And then you ask them what thoughts they've had about that situation since then, and there are a list of questions they have, and then the person who's been injured gets to respond what was your reaction to what happened? You know what happened to you. What was your reaction? What were you thinking about at the time? You know that it occurred, what was the hardest thing for you about this experience? And they're communicating with each other about where they were and very often they're able to come to a resolution that doesn't involve the justice system, but they're able to work it out between themselves.
Shawn Weber:Well, james, we've been at this for about an hour. You can tell it's a good conversation, because I feel like we could just keep going. I think we could. It was wonderful having you join us and I just kind of want to summarize for the consumer out there, the people that are facing the divorce and maybe the people that are angry, some of what I heard from you and you can tell me if I caught it all. So the number one is when you're angry, that's a normal thing. Don't think that you're abnormal because you're angry. Use your words, use eye statements, focus on interests, not on your anger.
Dr. James Walton:Interests are the reasons. Right, Right Interests are the reasons.
Shawn Weber:Yeah, use genuine curiosity when you're talking to each other about things that make you angry. Be strategic rather than emotional. Get from your right brain to your left brain. Yeah, it's OK if you don't agree. Yeah, it's OK if you don't agree, and I can choose how I respond. Anything else.
Dr. James Walton:When you were talking about from getting from right brain to left brain. Name the emotions, it's OK.
Shawn Weber:Name that feeling right.
Dr. James Walton:Name that feeling. So if it's like you're angry, say I'm angry. That does help it to move from right brain to left brain, kind of that self-awareness.
Shawn Weber:I am in fact angry.
Dr. James Walton:I am, yeah, I am angry.
Shawn Weber:That does help it to move from a right brain to left brain, kind of that self-awareness. I am, in fact, angry. I am, yeah, I am angry. I am enraged. Yes, yeah, yeah, okay, very good. Well, james, if people wanted to work with you to manage their anger and other issues in regards to their divorce from an emotional perspective, what should they do?
Dr. James Walton:You can log onto my website at latherapistcom and all the information is there on how to get in contact with me, and I work with people online throughout California, or I also see people in person who are living in the LA area, or I also see people in person who are living in the LA area.
Shawn Weber:Very good, and, by the way, I went through his Web site. James Web site is excellent. It's a. It's a. There's a lot of resources there. Mark, if people needed to talk to you about the financial aspects of their divorce, what should they do?
Mark Hill:Same thing. Go to my Web site Packed divorce PACDIBORCorcecom. Fill out our contact form. We also have a lot of information about what we do and, candidly, what we don't do, which is go to court anymore.
Peter Roussos:Okay and Pete, if people wanted to work with you regarding their divorce and other counseling issues, what should they do? Also, my website, which is PeterRussoscom P-E-T-E-R-R-O-U-S-S-O-Scom, and my contact me page there. They can email me from there.
Shawn Weber:Excellent, and if anybody wants to work with a mediator at any kind of dispute, I am there to help with that. From a legal perspective, it's WeberDisputeResolutioncom. That's Weber with one B, like the grill dispute, like we had a fight and resolution, like we solved it and go there and we will match you with a mediator who will help you resolve your dispute. Well guys, we've done it again. It's been great. I really appreciate James Walton for joining us a wonderful therapist and psychologist in the LA area and I look forward to seeing more of you around, james, as we continue this great work in California. And for those of you that are out there dealing with anger, we wish you the best and we're hopeful that this podcast is something that'd be useful for you.
Dr. James Walton:Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it, james. Thank you, james. Bye everybody.
Shawn Weber:Thanks for listening to another episode of the Three Wisemen of Divorce Money, psych and Law. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe, leave us a review and share with others who may be in a similar place. Until next time, stay safe, healthy and focused on a positive, bright future. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Bright future this podcast is for informational purposes only. Every family law case is unique, so no legal, financial or mental health advice is intended during this podcast. If you need help with your specific situation, feel free to schedule a time to speak with one of us for a personal consultation.