AGEIST
The AGEIST podcast is where we rewrite life after 50. Hosted by David Stewart, founder of AGEIST and Super Age, we talk with extraordinary people—scientists, creatives, and thinkers—about living vibrantly in your 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond. From longevity science to emotional well-being, fitness to purpose, we explore the tools and mindsets that help us stay curious, energized, and deeply engaged with life. This isn’t about aging gracefully—it’s about living boldly.
AGEIST
Amy Odell: Why Gwyneth Paltrow Believes Her Own Hype
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Amy Odell, the journalist behind the biographies Anna, and the newly released Gwyneth, joins the show to trace how a $6.8 trillion wellness industry has learned to monetize our fear of aging. She explains why Gwyneth Paltrow's most outrageous claims may not be cynical marketing at all, connecting research on conspiracy belief and narcissistic traits to how someone builds and defends a brand.
Later, The conversation turns to plastic surgery's shift from private secret to public status symbol. A facelift can change a face without changing how old people perceive it. Odell and host David Stewart also dig into the harder distinction beneath all of it: aging as a matter of physical capacity versus a matter of appearance, and why culture keeps confusing the two.
Join Us at the 2026 Super Age Games! Visit games.superage.com to learn more.
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Key Moments
"The wellness industry is valued, according to the Global Wellness Institute, I believe at $6.8 trillion globally... It's bigger than big ag. It's bigger than big pharma."
"I do think that [Gwyneth] believes the things that she promotes, even if they seem crazy to us... there's some research that people who believe conspiracy theories have traits of narcissism."
"I think we live in an ageist society... there's so much money made in selling people this idea of eternal youth."
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Click Here for the full interview transcript.
So the wellness industry is valued, according to the Global Wellness Institute, I believe at $6.8 trillion globally. And in researching the Gwynneth book, Gwyneth the Biography, I learned that that was bigger than Big Ag. It's bigger than Big Pharma. Like you can slice and dice the numbers and see that it really outpaces other industries that I think are widely kind of viewed as evil. But I'm not sure that the wellness industrial complex, I mean, yes, there are many skeptics. I'm not sure that it's really viewed as what I like to call big wellness. And I think really it expands things to influencers, the ones we see on Instagram and TikTok, and many celebrity influencers like Gwyneth Peltro.
SPEAKER_02Hey everyone, welcome back to the Ages Podcast. This is episode 296, and I'm David Stewart. Today's guest is Amy Odell. Amy is a journalist who covers fashion and culture. And if you've read anything sharp about Anna Wintour or Gwyneth Paltrow in the last two years, there's a good chance it came from Amy. She's wrote the book Anna, the biography, and she wrote Gwyneth, the biography. She writes a newsletter called Backrow that I read regularly. She came up at New York magazine, studied journalism at NYU, grew up in Austin, Texas. Somewhere in the reporting about Gweth, she landed on this phrase that's really stuck with me ever since. It's the wellness industrial complex. We get into what that actually means, how a $6.8 trillion industry sells us the idea that we can outrun aging, and who really benefits when that fear gets stoked. What I love about this conversation is that Amy spent her entire career inside the rooms where beauty and wellness and status get manufactured. And she's willing to say plainly when something doesn't add up. We get into whether plastic surgery is really about vanity or about control, why 50 doesn't mean what it used to, and why fashion may be less prescriptive about age than it's ever been. We'll talk to Amy right after a brief word from our sponsors. True Nutrition is protein powder you build yourself with the exact ingredients, flavor, and sweetener you want. I like that because believe it or not, I'm fairly particular about what I put in my body. With True Nutrition, I get to play chemist. On their website, I can choose the protein base, the flavor, how sweet I want it, and add things like collagen, fiber, probiotics, or aminos. It takes a few minutes and then your custom mix is saved for next time. The flavor and texture are excellent, with no chalky aftertaste, and I like that it can be sweetened with monk fruit too. Head to TrueNutrition.com slash AGIST and use code AGIST for 20% off your first custom protein blend. That's true nutrition.com slash AGIST CodeAGISIST. Go build your own mix and take 20% off. Once you've had a protein you actually look forward to, you won't go back. Every movement we make starts with energy, and that energy starts inside our cells. As we age, our mitochondria, the little engines that power us, can become less efficient. That affects strength, recovery, resilience, all the things we actually care about. Timeline developed Mitapure with Urolithin A to support metophagy, the process that helps clear out damaged mitochondria so our cells can work better. I think of it as working closer to the source. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new, lower price. MidaPure now starts at $79 when you go to Timeline.com slash agist. That's Timeline.com slash AGIST. This season I've been paying more attention to the energy curve. Coffee can be useful, but too much of it and I end up wired than flat. Element Lemonade Iced Tea has been a better afternoon move. It uses full black tea extract with electrolytes, so the caffeine feels steadier and there's no sugar, artificial colors, or dodgy ingredients. Sharp and clear is the goal, especially when it's hot out and hydration matters. Get a free eight-count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinkelement.com slash aegis. Find your favorite flavor or share with a friend. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T.com slash AGIST. Before we get to Amy, a quick favor. If this show has given you something useful, a new way to think about your body, your habits, how you're aging, maybe take 15 seconds and leave us a five-star review wherever you listen. It generally helps other people find the show, and I read every single comment. Since we're about to get into this whole question of capacity versus appearance, that's exactly what we've built around the Super Age Games. It's the first ever longevity competition. It's coming to New York City November 7th. It's not about how you look, it's about what your body can actually do grip strength, balance, endurance, also cognitive and social skills. These are the things that actually predict how long and how well you live. Head over to games.superage.com for more. We'd love to see you there. Let's give Amy a call right now. Hey Amy, very nice to see you today.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_02I'm really excited. I'm like a huge fan of your work. Deanna Wind tour biography is just fabulous. She's amazing. And then you've you've done a book on Gwyneth, and you have your newsletter back row, which is also super interesting. So before we get into this too much, tell us a little bit about your background.
SPEAKER_00I'm a journalist. My beat is fashion and culture. And I'm from Austin, Texas. I was born in 1985. So I'm about to turn 41 and worked at New York magazine, went to NYU, studied journalism, which is sort of hilarious because I don't I don't know if anyone would do that nowadays, magazine concentration. Yeah, I was sort of worked through the media industry, but you know, that's a that's a tough business. And now I'm finding a lot of enjoyment and I'd like to think some success in working for myself. So that's been great. And I guess I'm part of the creator economy now as a newsletter writer and independent journalist.
SPEAKER_02There's a term that you use that I that I'd like you to help us unpack, which is the wellness industrial complex. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the wellness industry is valued, according to the Global Wellness Institute, I believe at $6.8 trillion globally. And in researching the Gwyneth book, Gwyneth the Biography, I learned that that was bigger than big ag. It's bigger than big pharma. Like you can slice and dice the numbers and see that it really outpaces other industries that I think are widely kind of viewed as evil. But I'm not sure that the wellness industrial complex, I mean, yes, there are many skeptics. I'm not sure that it's really viewed as what I like to call big wellness. So that encompasses, you know, I think a lot of different things, alternative treatments, lots of longevity treatments lately, a lot of things that are of dubious value. Supplements are a big, big one. And there are some supplements that that do have actual value for you, but many that that don't. So that's how I see the the wellness industrial complex, this massive global industry expanding rapidly. And I think really it expands things to influencers, the ones we see on Instagram and TikTok, and many celebrity influencers like Gwyneth Peltrow.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk about Gwynneth for a second. She was a very successful movie star and beautiful, and she sort of moved to wellness. And I mean, I think other people have sort of did that in a little way, but she did in a big way.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So she said that her interest in wellness came about after her father died. Her father, Bruce Peltro, died of throat cancer before he was 60. And she was, I believe, 30 at the time of his death. And if he had been ill when he died, but it was sudden because they thought he was better. She went on a 30th birthday trip with him to Italy, and then he declined very rapidly and he died. And she was alone with him when he died. And I have a lot of sympathy for that because my father died suddenly when I was 27 and he was 65. It was shocking. So that was the great tragedy of her life. And she, you know, many people told me that she was a daddy's girl, is a daddy's girl. And she decided, as she said in many interviews, you know, that she wanted to be around for her children. She didn't want her children to have to go through that. She has two children, Apple and Moses with Chris Martin. And she started doing her own research, which I think we hear this a lot from people nowadays. They do their own research. They don't want to listen to experts or established science. So she starts doing that and she starts experimenting with different fads. One of them is the macrobiotic diet. Do you remember, David, when it seemed like everyone was on a macrobiotic diet?
SPEAKER_02That didn't work out so well.
SPEAKER_00No, I mean that one, that one I think is kind of faded. You know, there was like the South Beach diet, and now there's like the paleo diet, all these different ones. But she sort of became known for that. And then she started becoming publicly associated with other things, like cupping. She went on a red carpet with cupping marks on her back. Cupping is a treatment where they sort of put, I think, and I've never had it, so I'm describing it from memory researching it, but they sort of take like hot steam with like a suction cup and they put it on your back. And I remember seeing during one of the Olympics, like a lot of the swimmers were getting it. Do you remember this? And they would sort of have like big circles on their backs. So she goes out with that, you know, those marks on her back, and people can see them because she's in a red carpet gown. Her back is exposed. And then the media published so many stories. Like, what is cupping? This is what cupping is. Like, does cupping do anything for you? The latest research that I've seen, I don't recall there being any benefit to any to your health from doing cupping, but she's doing all these things. And then she starts goop in 2008, around the time of the Great Recession, and she continues talking about her favorite wellness fads and treatments. And that's when we see her really get into pseudoscience. And the more outrageous her claims, the more audience goop would attract because the media would pick up these inflammatory or in some cases just kind of outrageous stories. Like in one issue, she said she cited a book that she liked in which this guy says that water has feelings. Well, the media obviously pounced at that. Gwynneth Paltro thinks water has feelings, et cetera, et cetera. But it drove people over to the site. And it was a good business model in a way because you know, hate clicks are still clicks and people on the site might click over to the store and buy a lotion.
SPEAKER_02It's trolling with purpose.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I think we don't you feel like we see a lot of people doing that now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Just because you get that's how the internet works. Controversy generates audience because it generates attention.
SPEAKER_02I like her cookbooks.
SPEAKER_00They're great. Yes, I have one that I I still cook from. I only have the first one because I think after that, or no, no, no. I bought them for research, but I only cook from the first one because after that it was more prescriptive about diet. It was like this, you know, these recipes have no gluten and no this and no that, and I'm not really interested in eating that way personally.
SPEAKER_02I don't like to say anything bad about people, so I'm not gonna say anything about Gwen.
SPEAKER_00I just feel like Well, I think it's it's it's a plain statement of fact that she's controversial and that she's promoted some, you know, I will say she's promoted some really questionable treatments and she's received a lot of backlash for it, and she doubled down and she kept doing it.
SPEAKER_02I think that um she's very good at this this thing that she does. I don't like it, but she's really good at it. And I have really mixed feelings about admiring her savvy on what she's doing, but then how it makes me feel, I I just get like she's promoting unproven treatments. I mean, I don't want to get into Gwenna's head. I don't know, Gwenna. I've never met I mean I mean I know people who've worked with her mixed results. But I think that it's a lot some of these things appear to me to be said and like water has feelings. Of like causing me a sense of outrage. Like come on, Gwyneth, you know better.
SPEAKER_00You're still saying this because Well, I I will say I do think that she believes the things that she promotes, even if they seem crazy to us. And I I talk in the book about why that is. And one expert I interviewed who was so great, Timothy Caulfield, you may want to have him on a future podcast, but he studies health misinformation and, you know, an advocate against it and tries to provide accurate information and analyze how these things spread. And he told me that there's some research that people who believe conspiracy theories have traits of narcissism, you know, and he he had the caveat of like, I don't know Gwyneth, and I can't like diagnose her with that, but this is what the research shows. And it is not hard for me to imagine that someone who was at one point in time the world's most famous movie star, an Academy Award winner at I think 26 is when she won the Oscar for Best Actress for Shakespeare in Love. But it doesn't stretch the imagination for me to think that someone like that might have narcissistic personality traits. And many, many public figures do.
SPEAKER_02So Yeah. And narcissistic personality trait can be a positive or a negative, depending on what you're like where you want to go with it, right? It's a belief system about the world and how you stand in the world, and it can allow you to achieve certain things if you hold that tightly. It may not be so great for the people around you, but Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I should probably explain the reason that those two things are linked, believing in conspiracy theories and narcissistic personality, is because those people believe that they alone know the truth or the solution that other people don't know. That they are special and they have they're gifted to have this information.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Amy just walked us through how a $6.8 trillion wellness industry turned one movie star's grief into a global brand, and why the more outrageous the claim, the bigger the audience. And when we get back, Amy turns 41, Mick Jagger says aging sucks, and I'll tell you what I think he's dead wrong. Stick with us. True Nutrition makes protein powder you actually customize with the exact nutrient ratios, ingredients, flavors, and sweetener you want. I've tried a lot of protein mixes over the years, and most of them are one size fits all. With True Nutrition, you build your formula around what works for you. Here's how simple it is. First, you pick your base. They have more than 20 protein options, including whey, plant-based, and dairy-free, all third-party tested and verified in-house. Then you choose your flavor and intensity. They have 28 flavors, and you can sweeten your blend with stevia or monk fruit. After that, add any boost you want, things like collagen, fiber, probiotics, aminos, colostrum, or lion's mane. Then choose how often you want it delivered and your formula is saved so you get the same mix every time. For me, quality matters. I want protein that supports muscle, recovery, and metabolic health without fillers, additives, gluten, or a bunch of strange ingredients I don't need. I also want something that tastes good enough to actually use consistently. True Nutrition checks all of those boxes and has become my go-to. It mixes well and it doesn't leave that chalky aftertaste. Head to true nutrition.com slash AGIST and use code AGIST for 20% off your first custom protein blend. That's true nutrition.com slash AGIST, code AGIST. Go build your own mix and take 20% off. Once you've had a protein you actually look forward to, you won't go back. Most of us think about muscle health in terms of lifting weights and consuming protein, but there is a deeper layer underneath all of it, and that is cellular energy. Your muscle cells are packed with mitochondria because muscle takes a lot of energy to do its job. As we age, mitochondrial function naturally declines, and that can show up as lower energy, less strength, slower recovery, and a little less bounce back than we used to have. Timeline has spent more than 15 years researching mitochondrial health and developed mitopure, which contains urolithin A. Urolithin A supports metophagy, the body's process for clearing out damaged mitochondria and recycling cellular components. In one study, participants saw a 12% improvement in muscle strength in four months with no change in exercise. That gets my attention. For me, healthy aging means protecting capacity, the ability to move, train, recover, and keep showing up for the life I want. Supporting the cellular machinery underneath strength and energy feels like a very smart place to start. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Midopure now starts at $79 when you go to Timeline.com slash agist. I want to go to your thoughts about aging.
SPEAKER_00August 6th, I'll be 41.
SPEAKER_02How does it feel?
SPEAKER_00How does it feel? Well, I could think that, you know, I've heard people say that your 30s are like really hard and like in your 40s are like great. And I think I'm starting to understand that in the sense that not that it's like was necessarily easy for me to turn 40 and view myself as a 40-something, because I think that's a hurdle for a lot of people. But I've been working a while, I'm kind of established in what I'm doing. I'm very lucky. You know, I think the same is true for my husband. We love our children. They're at really fun ages. My daughter's five, and my son just turned eight. And you sort of make that transition, I think around age five or six from like fuss management to hanging out. So that's been really nice. My daughter's starting kindergarten in the fall. And I'm looking forward to all of that.
SPEAKER_02I I want to get this right. I don't know how m how old Mick Jagger is, but I think he's like early 80s, possibly.
SPEAKER_00Is he in his 80s already? Yeah, you're right. He's 83. Oh, I didn't realize he was 83. Wow. He was born in 1943.
SPEAKER_02He said this thing the other day. He's like, there's absolutely nothing good about aging. Like the whole thing, suit the nuts, it just really sucks. And, you know, that obviously got a lot of press. How do you feel about aging? Because I disagree with Mick. I think there's definitely some downsides to this. But there's also some, at least in my experience, some like really kind of awesome upsides that one can embrace. I'm way smarter than I ever was.
SPEAKER_01I don't do dumb shit anymore.
SPEAKER_00Right. I agree with that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You just you have a bigger hard drive. You've just like seen more stuff. Maybe at least you feel you are able to sort of predict the outcome of okay, you've met somebody, and you can sort of get a sense of like, oh, I like this person, I don't like this person, they're a good person, they're a bad person, because you've just met more people, right? So you're able to sort of pattern recognize these things. I find that my ability to do sort of fast granular work is not as good as it was, but I'm able to do this other thing where I can like connect, okay, this this thing is happening over here, this other thing is happening over here, and I can see these two things coming together, and this is this is this is what's happening. So that's sort of a new skill that I didn't have before.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm glad to hear you say that. Yeah, as you were saying that, I think that I I can relate in that, you know, I'm a writer. And I think the older I get and the longer I do this, one, the better I get at it. And I think that I am better at doing sort of the higher level conceptual thinking that I probably wasn't nearly as good at when I was in my 20s. Because you don't have that perspective on the world. It's kind of harder to see, I think, why a story, be it about Anna Winter or Gwyneth Paltrow, like why it might matter, what the stakes are, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Tell me, you know, you've been covering this world for a while. Other than the the like explosion of wellness, what are the things you're seeing out there? What's been moving?
SPEAKER_00What's been moving? Well, I cover fashion, primarily. That's the primary thing I write about. And I think it's kind of fascinating to see how our habits around how we put ourselves together and how we shop, you know, the mechanism of shopping, like how that's all changing with technology and with social media being kind of the new media, the new front page. One example of that I think is this, and I'm curious to get your take on this, actually, is that this obsession with plastic surgery and the sort of feeling, you know, different people see certain things when they open their algorithm. I guess I used to see more of this. I used to see tons of plastic surgery content, like speculation over what celebrities have had done, or, you know, people sharing their own plastic surgery stories. It's crazy to me how explosive the market for plastic surgery is.
SPEAKER_02What I find interesting is people talking about their own class, like the sort of transparency around this, where it used to be something like just don't ask, don't tell. And now it's much more well, I had, you know, Bob the surgeon just did this, and and this is how it went. This is my recovery. Oh, here, let me show you the post op photos. There's something related about this to, you know, the whole topic of menopause, which everybody talks about all the time.
SPEAKER_00So there's a lot, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right?
SPEAKER_00The wellness industry has really glommed on to menopause. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That was actually a word you could not say on television. It was, it was, it was banned at one point, like not that long, like 15 years ago. I couldn't even use that word. So now it's very common for people to not only talk about menopause, but HRT and their and their formulations and their protocols, and this is what I'm doing. And you're seeing this, it started with women, and you're also seeing this with men, like very being very transparent about their TRT or whatever they're doing. And I it somehow seems parallel to me to the plastic surgery discussion. Although the plastic surgery discussion does have the visual component. It's really totally. Carrying with all these bandages.
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say that I think that our exposure to, you know, do you remember when airbrushing was like a big deal? Yeah. I remember watching when I was a kid, like a 2020 segment on airbrushing in magazines. And now we all have access to this all the time. Like if you make a video, you post it to social media, you just retouch it, you put a filter on it. Same with photos, you know, and like even built into your iPhone, you can go to portrait mode, which might like kind of make it look a little bit better, right? So I think that our exposure to enhanced and unnaturally perfected images obviously has never been higher. And we're also the culture right now is just so terrified of aging, like probably more than ever before. I've been watching, I know I'm behind, but I've been watching your friends and neighbors, the John Hamm show on Apple. It's about sort of messy late 40s, 50-ish people in a wealthy New York City suburb. And there's commentary in every episode about how like getting older sucks. We were never supposed to get this old. It's like people with like teen kids, you know, rich, but like totally like super rich, but totally unhappy, um, like constantly chasing highs, doing drugs. Yeah, I just feel like our fear of aging has just like never been more pronounced.
SPEAKER_02At this I I I sort of see this other thing happening too. That there's in in the same way people, there's this sense of digital perfection, or even, you know, as we were speaking, like surgical perfection, is and I I think it was the photographer Peter Lindbergh, who was a was a lovely man, and he he was talking about the terror of perfection. Like it's terrifying if you think like I I really feel bad for these like sort of 50, 60 year old movie stars. Like there is like a limit to what to being able to keep yourself looking 35. Like that, you can only do that and that's they're good, they're they're they're gonna hit that at some point. But I I I think that this there's something about the uh the embrace of analog, the embrace of humanity, which is sort of coming as this counterweight. So we have the the you know, the Kardashians and the the filters and all of that, and you know, people that are genetically really beautiful to begin with, and then you s and then you do this to them, but then that sort of goes with all this sort of like what I what I with all the, you know, there's AI, there's all this digital and what's happening is people are sort of I feel this like movement towards what what I would call like a sort of whole human approach to things, where there's this there are certain people that put themselves out there in a very public way and they don't really care. Like this is what I look like. Like, okay, this is this is my age, in the same way that people will like people like vinyl records because it's like there's something like you have to actually touch the thing. You've got to pull it out of the sleeve and you've got to put it down, and there's this human interaction with the thing versus just spot if I maybe a playlist. And I think that there's like we see this is a bit of a leap, a leap, I realize, but like, you know, like young people in run clubs. So there's this this like let let's be humans together. How can we be more like humans and live this more fully alive experience? And I think that the in the wellness area, there's you know, the sort of, you know, like our friend Brian Johnson, who's like basically boying a bubble. Like, yes, okay, Brian, like I I like Brian, but Brian's a weirdo. Like, I don't want to live Brian's life. Like that's this is not a full human experience, right? And I it it's sort of part of this way of seeing the world, this in terms of, and there's a fear, like what you said, there is a fear element to this. They are there, there is, we are afraid of something, therefore, we're going to narrow our lives, we're going to sort of polish all the rough edges off versus this other thing that's more, you know, I'm I'm seeing adventure clubs pop up. I'm seeing people like do these sort of things together. And as well, like one of my good friends is Stacy Sims. The last thing on the planet that Stacy's going to do is like enhance her face digitally. Like that is just not happening. And there's a credibility there. It's like you, there's a certain invulnerability. If you, if you say to the world, this is who I am. This is what I'm, this is what I look like. What's the problem? Okay. Like you've sort of reduced. I think it's harder for women too. I'm I realize I'm sort of scattering around here. It's definitely with a woman like a Madonna, Madonna can do no right, right? It's like she's gone over the top or she's not looking so good. Like people are always gonna come after people for this. Does that make any sense what I've said? I feel like I've like scattershot here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you have a lot of ideas, but they're good ideas. But um, yes, I did write, I wrote a I wrote an opinion piece for the New York Times not all that long ago about this plastic surgery craze that we're seeing and how it's really become the new status symbol. You know, I think it also ties to kind of the explosion of wealth at the upper echelon of at least American society, where like everyone has a Birken, you know, maybe they have a private jet and like the next thing they can do is get a new face, which is extremely, extremely sp expensive. I mean, I think Chris Jenner's surgeon, Stephen Levine, I think he charges like six figures for a facelift. So you can do that. And then the fascinating thing about it is that since it's a status symbol, you know, I don't think people are thinking as much about making it look subtle.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00They want people to know that they've had work done. And I recently interviewed some people who did get facelifts for my background newsletter. And a number of them told me, like, I didn't want to look like I had nothing done. I wanted people to know that I had something done. Which I think is really fascinating. And then it was interesting doing that story as well because everyone I talked to said it was sort of a complete shock to get their faces changed and then look in the mirror and see a different person.
SPEAKER_02And I've interviewed some plastic surgeries, and one of the things that they've told me is well, they've they'll they'll say they really want people to feel more confident in how they look for whatever reason. And there's a the the reputable ones will go through a it's a long process. You can't just like walk in and throw it on your credit card. There's a real sort of you know, the there's a psychological thing that goes on. And they were saying that one of the things they warn them about is that if you do this, your friends are gonna react to you differently. Now, I I think that within that certain private jet echelon, it may be like like wow, it's a it's a status check, Mark. But for some other people, it may be they may get some real pushback. And I was told that you will probably lose a certain amount of your friend community because you've done this. And I thought that was kind of interesting.
SPEAKER_00That's fascinating. Yeah, I'd be curious to know how that's evolving. I have heard from a friend who lives in New York City and I live outside the city in the suburbs, but I've heard from a friend who lives there that, you know, women, once they reach their 40s, it's just kind of like, when am I getting my face done? It we should probably also acknowledge like it's major, major surgery. Like the the recovery takes a year, and there's all these weird things that happen. Like you go numb in certain areas of your face, or like there could be nerve damage where you look like part of your mouth is not working properly. So it's very major surgery. And I some of the people I interviewed, like they had side effects. Like one woman said not to be too graphic, like her eye filled with fluid and it had to be drained and like drained repeatedly. And like, you know, she was still having, you know, a fair number of issues, like two months after the initial surgery. So it's not something to undertake lightly. It didn't really make me want to do it, if I'm being honest.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I it's sounds very intense. I've I've had multiple surgeries, none on my face, but to every single one, the surgeon, I say, well, okay, like what's the recovery on it? Like, oh, you know, it's six to eight weeks. No, no, no, no. It's like six to eight months. Like it's like maybe I'm a slow healer, I don't know, but these things, it's a big deal. I think that there's all you know, to go back to the cultural part of it, if um like I've I've spent you know, you spend time in Europe, it's things are very sort of much more demure. Whereas like you go to the other and then you sort of go across the US and you have like what like Califor the California facelift look, plastic surgery look is very different than the New York one. And then if you go to Korea, it's it's you know, people are very they're very young and it's very obvious what's happened in the same way that you know, you if you're gonna carry a balanciaga bag, it's very obvious. This status thing, as you said.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. Anna had a facelift, as I put in the book. At least one. I don't know if she ever had another one.
SPEAKER_02I like that Anna eats steak for lunch.
SPEAKER_00Every day, although I guess it could have changed since the time I did my reporting. But yes, because she's British and she has that sort of British sensibility about food. Like she would eat like lamb chops, she doesn't really drink, no dessert. She would maybe have like a couple sips of white wine here and there. She's like one of the most controlled people, and I think energetic people like on the planet. Cause she was born in November 1949, so she's gonna turn 77. Yeah, in a few months. It's pretty remarkable.
SPEAKER_02Coming up, Amy and I get into capacity versus appearance, why looking younger might quite literally make you more employable, unfortunately. And what she learned about being fearless from coming Anna wind to her, back in a moment. I used to think the afternoon fade was a caffeine problem. Have another coffee, push through, keep going. But caffeine mostly mutes the signal that tells you you're tired. The fatigue is still there, building underneath, and when it wears off, you feel the drop. What I like about Element Lemonade Iced tea is that it takes a different approach. It uses full black tea extract. So the caffeine comes with L-theanine and polyphenols, the way it exists in the plant. Then it adds a meaningful dose of electrolytes, sodium, potassium, and magnesium, the same foundation as Elements Core Hydration Mix. For me, that makes sense in the summer. Heat, training, travel, long work days, all of that asks more from the system. I reach for lemonade iced tea when I want something that feels clean, steady, and actually refreshing, with no sugar, artificial colors, or strange ingredients. Get a free eight-count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinkelement.com slash ageist. Find your favorite flavor or share with a friend. Once again, that's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T.com slash agist. I've only met Anna once and she was very nice to me. She was like super polite. She didn't know who I was. She didn't know anything about me. She was like really nice. But having read your book, this person has a force.
SPEAKER_00She's very efficient. She gets a lot of things done. Yeah, she's just very, very efficient. And I think part of that efficiency is her personality. Like she doesn't really care to make sure that she's being polite necessarily. Like she's not afraid to be cold. If she has nothing to say, she's not gonna say it. You know, one person I talked to said she's so efficient that like there's not a single wasted adjective when she talks to you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I can't do that.
SPEAKER_00I know, I know. I mean, you know, when you meet somebody, people have a natural inclination to fill the silence.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So if you and I were meeting for the first time, let's say we went to lunch, you might ask about where I live, what I do, my husband, my kids, whatever. She doesn't do that. She just lets it let lets the silence just hang there between her and another person, and it really throws people off.
SPEAKER_02Um she's amazing at what she does. I want to talk a little bit more about the this, you know, this wellness and beauty and aging and how these things have sort of like sort of come together. That what was the thing? There was some piece in some, maybe it was the Wall Street Journal the other day, that talking about I think it was like 50 is no longer old or something something like that.
SPEAKER_00Which yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, I'm always saying stuff like memes like 40 is the new 30 and whatever, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, part of that is capacity based, I think. So like I'm 67 and I just never thought like I'd be able to like I'd be sort of spunky at 67, but I sort of am. But like part of it is also looks-based, right? So the biggest thing that's changed for me is that I look different. You know, I'm older. And that's where it gets sort of confusing, right? It's like are we comparing capacity or are we comparing appearance? I what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00Capacity versus appearance. Yeah, I think we live in an ageist society. I don't have to tell you that. And I think that we could be better as a culture about extolling the virtues of aging, which is why it's great you do what you do, because there's so much money to be made. Per your earlier point about the connection between beauty and wellness and longevity. There's so much money to be made in selling people this idea of eternal youth, whether it's the longevity movement that promises, I mean, this all intersects, right? The longevity movement that promises to extend your life by however much, or makeup that makes you look a little younger, maybe, or surgery, plastic surgery, or filler or botox that erases some wrinkles that you don't like. So I think all of those things are connected. And I think unfortunately, and thanks in large part to technology, you know, people are discovering just so many ways to capitalize on our fear of aging and our fear of death. And it all ties into the beauty industrial complex because that's the thing that gives age away, is how you look. Although it's funny because going back to Timothy Caulfield, the medical misinformation expert I discussed earlier. He cited in something I read of his that, you know, people who have had plastic surgery, they look something like an average of a few years younger. Like you can get the surgery, but it doesn't necessarily change, you know, how like my perception of your age. It might erase some of the signs, like you might have fewer, you know, wrinkles in your forehead or something, but I still perceive you basically as the age that you are. And when I read that in his writing, I was like, that really changes kind of how I think about this, you know, personally for myself. This was before I interviewed all these women who had facelifts and some complications that didn't seem so great to me. But, you know, like you can go get the surgery. You can undergo the pain and, you know, this sort of psychological, I don't know, adjustments of having a new face. And you can go through all this and you might really like how you look, you know, but I think it really has to be for you because like I'm still gonna probably perceive you, you know, as let's say you're 67, maybe I'll perceive you as 65 or 64.
SPEAKER_02We can't stop, despite what you know, David Sinclair and others have been saying at the moment, we cannot stop aging. We cannot reverse aging. You can do things to help yourself out, but like you can exercise. But I think that some of the thing with the plastic surgery is it gives people a sense of agency. It's like I can do this, right? Like here. I can't I can't, you know, actually turn back my chronological clock, but I can for enough money do this thing. And so now it this gives me a sense of control in in some way. And I and I think that that goes through the beauty. That's one of the connections to like the beauty industry and the the wellness longevity industry is this perceived sense of control.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great point. That's a really good point. Yes, you can't turn back the clock, but you can sort of reverse the signs that the clock is ticking. Yeah. Don't don't like therapists say, I feel like someone, some therapist once said this to me like suffering comes from wanting things to be different from the way they are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. It's also, you know, that's also this sense of that's what gives us ambition, right? Like wanting things not to be where we are. So that's not entirely a bad thing. But it's it's an interesting, I don't know, there's something, there's something about this sense of powerlessness that I think can bother people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And also I think we should probably acknowledge like a powerlessness around isms, sexism, ageism. You can't change that, that's the way our world is. Um, and I I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people were, you know, making these decisions about their faces or whatever else, just kind of navigating within the, you know, our messed up sort of work and sort of world culture around these things. Like studies show, you know, more attractive people make more money and things like that. So it's it's it's hard not to have that embedded also in our psyches.
SPEAKER_02And that's absolutely true. That yeah. I and I and I think that there could be, and I I think there is sort of an economic imperative to looking younger if you're looking in certain industries. And I think even in industries that are not necessarily, you know, the entertainment industry, I think you will be if you can move what people think of your age back from not a couple of years, but if you can move it from like 60 to 50 or something, you will be more I'm I'm sorry, you're gonna be more employable. I wish that wasn't the case. I I feel that probably is the case.
SPEAKER_00Well, I absolutely agree with you. And I mean, thinking of Anna Winter too, like I can't remember the exact year she had the facelift. I want to say it was like in the 2000s, and she's 77 now, so maybe she was like in her 50s. But you know, like she's she's leading a very superficial industry. Like the most maybe superficial industry, which is fashion. So I think yes, people who work in certain fields are gonna feel even more pressure. And then also with someone like her, you know, she's been in her position, you know, she's not technically the editor-in-chief anymore of Vogue, but she's still overseeing it. She's the chief content officer for Connie and Ask. So she's overseeing every publication in their portfolio, you know, and like people, a lot of people think she should step down, she should leave, she should let other people have a turn. And she's not doing that. So I can also imagine if you're someone in in that position, you know, just like wanting to keep up, you know, the appearance that like you have this, you know, vivacity about you. And I think that she does. Um and she, you know, I was looking just scrolling through Instagram mindlessly as I do, and I saw a video of her wearing like kind of like a slightly different dress from what she normally wears. And she just looked so great. It's just kind of amazing. Like she continues to kind of like evolve her style and like her personal physical brand. But I think that that's just so important for someone in her position.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And I think Anna should probably keep doing what Anna does as long as Anna wants to do it and as long as she's good at it. And I think that's what things are very true at the moment. You know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, what else, like, what do you do? I don't know if you've done like research around this, but it's like people who love to work, like who get up every day hungry to work, who love it, like she loves it. It's like she's really a workaholic, like addicted to it. Like, what what else do you what do you do?
SPEAKER_02For someone like that, yeah. They would have a very, very difficult time not doing that. Like that, the the psychological, like having the the lane change that would be involved there. You know, for someone actually at her level, she's so connected through like all this stuff. That would that would maintain. So she would still have all that. But I think that in general, people I see this more with men, ever higher performing, higher performing, and they're like, love this thing they do. And then all of a sudden, boom, they're not, for whatever reason, can be deeply unsettling. Who am I? Where am I going? What's my sense of community? What is my and again, it's more for men, like what my worth in the world is based upon achievement. It's not based upon my friends, it's not based on this other stuff. It's this, it's this thing. And if I can't do that, that becomes hard. I think women are much more relational, so in in general. So it's I think that it's easier for them to sort of change lanes, but for somebody like an Anna, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think for her, it's like why confront that? Like more. And she doesn't have to. And you know, she likes it.
unknownYeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Even though her job is not nearly as glamorous in many senses as it once was, like when she was editor chief of Vogue in like 1990 and she had all this money to make these beautiful photo shoots, which is like, you know, how she started her career, and that's like her real love and expertise. And now she's not doing that anymore. You know, she's doing like YouTube stuff, like Vogue World, which is sort of a fashion variety show that airs on YouTube. Well, the Met Gala, which still has a lot of cultural cachet. But then it's like looking at metrics and managing like or overseeing social media content, like all of that. It's just like I can't imagine that's as fun, but she has, you know, as I talk about in the book, like she leaned into it. She understands it as best she can. And something that I really like that she says, I mean, you could criticize this, but I think it's I found it useful actually for me personally, is that you have to always look forward and fashion is always about looking forward. I mean, fashion is obviously also about looking back, like when trends come back. But I think it's useful, you know, for me personally in my work and in my career. When like everyone was getting on TikTok circa 2020, right? During the pandemic, uh, and I had this book, Anna, the biography coming out. I didn't really want to like make videos and like participate in that. But, you know, I think I had this quote in my head from Anna, like, you have to always look forward. You kind of have to always be one step ahead because if you don't, you will fall behind. It's true. You just have to adapt. And so I got a ring light and I learned how to use TikTok. And and I just wanted to promote my book because I had worked so hard on it that I didn't, I didn't want to leave a single sale on the table because it was so hard. Um, it took like four years. So I did, and now like we're all we're all doing this as like independent journalists. Like, we all have to be making these videos. So it was good to develop that skill, even though I didn't want to do it.
SPEAKER_02We still have a few minutes left. I and I just want to touch on you know, your zone of expertise is fashion, or one of your zones of expertise is fashion. And then as we one of the like things that I've seen happen over the last, say, 20 years is the way um age is not prescriptive to what one will wear. So we're seeing this collapse of like there used to be things that like a 25-year-old would wear or a 35-year-old would wear, and then you know, by the time like 40 you're in sort of like especially like in women's fashion, you're in this sort of dowager sort of thing. And right like that's not it's there seems to be a more uh continuity, you know, from old very from older to younger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's true. I totally think that's true.
SPEAKER_02Do you think that's pushed? Do you think that the brands have pushed that because it makes it they can sell more of a certain thing?
SPEAKER_00I do. I sometime in the 2010s, you know what I think it was was just sort of this movement towards inclusivity. And I don't know where we are with that with AI and some of these, you know, cultural and technological changes that we're seeing now. But there was a big push to be more inclusive in that, you know, in terms of diversity, but also in terms of, you know, sort of like ethnic diversity, but also in terms of age. And do you remember when Joan Didion was in a Celine campaign? 100% was like a flip chat. Phoebe Philo. Yeah, Phoebe Philo, the creative director of Celine at the time, who now has her own line, like she was kind of a pioneer in that. And even Debnat Balenciaga, or he's not at Balenciaga anymore. Now he's at Gucci. But he was a, I thought, a genius at doing what what we call street casting. So not just casting like perfect looking models, but just casting people, but kind of like people who are interesting, who draw you in, who have the right attitude, you know, who are going to captivate you when they're on the runway or in an ad. So I think that that's kind of what started it. And it was just, I think it was sort of those creative minds, those creative geniuses who just made it cool. And I think it sort of stuck around. And now, you know, thanks to social media, like it's not up to, you know, the Anna Winters of the world or the heads of Hollywood movie studios to tell us who is cool, who is hot, whatever. And I follow, you know, so many influencers who are in there, you know, I don't know how old they are, 50s, 60s, 70s, who have really cool style, who make really amazing content about their love of fashion. So I think we've seen just sort of a great proliferation of that kind of imagery. And there could always be more, don't get me wrong, like the fashion industry, that like the predominant sort of model is like young, white, very, very skinny. But we have seen a lot more of that. And I do think social media and just like the ability for us to decide, you know, who we're attracted to, who we want to follow, who we want to get advice from. Um, you know, social media put that power in our hands.
SPEAKER_02What would you like to leave our people with?
SPEAKER_00Great question. I guess one of the things, and like I'm 41, so many people will have more experience in life listening to this than me. But I think the one thing that that has enabled me to kind of like do what I do is just like being fearless and kind of like ignoring, ignoring like the noise. And I think that people like Anna Winter and Gwyneth Paltrow have to do that as well. And Anna Winter, I would say, is like one of the great cultural innovators of the you know, the last century, if not more. But yeah, and something else that she says is like you can't you can't always just like look to the left and to the right at what other people are doing. And yeah, you have to be really fearless. It was it was like not relaxing to like write books about Anna Winter and Gwyneth Baltro. So yeah, just have to be fearless.
SPEAKER_02That's the word for the day. Fearless. Amy, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Amy Odell. What struck me most is this idea Amy raised about control. And that a lot of what we're chasing with cosmetic procedures isn't really about vanity. It's about wanting some say over the process we fundamentally cannot stop. And, you know, I gotta say I feel that. I've got some vanity in me too, but it left me thinking hard about where I put my energy. Am I chasing the appearance of capacity or am I actually building it? Because they're not the same thing. I want to keep coming back to Amy's last words fearless. Less time measuring ourselves against everyone else's filtered feed, and more time just doing the work, the way she describes Anna Wintour doing hers. That's it for this week. Stay strong, stay vibrant. We'll see you next time.