Botox and Burpees
Botox and Burpees
S04E85 Balancing Perfect SATs, Orthopaedic Surgery, and Life: The Journey of Dr. Jesse Allert
Join us for a fascinating conversation with Dr. Jesse Allert, a brilliant orthopedic surgeon who has mastered the art of balance between his professional and personal life. From his perfect SAT score to his tragically short collegiate basketball career, and rigorous training at The College of New Jersey, New York Medical College, and the Florida Orthopedic Institute, Dr. Allert's journey is a compelling story of dedication. He opens up about his reasons for choosing orthopaedics, how he maintains equilibrium between patient care, family, and fitness, and offers his unique perspective on the role of CrossFit in his practice.
In our discussion, we also explore the collaborative spirit that fuels the medical field. We reflect on the transformative power of technology, such as social messaging groups, in modern surgical training and peer consultation. We share personal anecdotes that underline the importance of mentorship, the necessity of peer consultations, and the mutual respect between different surgical specialties. This chapter of our conversation shines a light on the communal aspects of being a doctor, emphasizing the invaluable support network that shapes daily medical practice.
Finally, we dive into the world of surgical procedures and rituals that keep us focused. Dr. Allert talks about his love for performing arthroplasty and labral repair surgeries, revealing the technical nuances and patient-specific considerations that come into play. We also discuss how music can set the tone in the operating room, enhancing both concentration and camaraderie. From the importance of maintaining fitness through activities like swimming and CrossFit to the strategies for achieving career growth and life balance, this episode is packed with insights and inspiration for anyone interested in the multifaceted life of an orthopedic surgeon. Don't miss out on this in-depth discussion with Dr. Jesse Allert!
I like comparing surgeons to professional athletes. That is a vain comparison, of course, and it doesn't hold up when you look at the details. But just bear with me, for a moment.
Speaker 1:When surgeons start out their career out of training usually around the age of 30, they generally have a lot of enthusiasm. They are eager to take on everything they've learned in residency and start operating as the surgeon in charge. But just like professional football, basketball or any other sport, there's no substitute for experience in surgery. No matter how much raw talent, energy and enthusiasm you may have, you've got to be in game time situations over and over again to know how to perform and succeed. I have known Dr Jesse Allert, orthopedic surgeon, for over 13 years. I met him when he was finishing his residency training at my gym, crossfit Bison, and he was everything you would want your surgeon to be Friendly, knowledgeable and caring. I knew even before he finished his shoulder, elbow, knee trauma fellowship and became back to New Jersey that he'd be an amazing surgeon. And now that he has years under his belt, he's been the go-to guy for orthopedic injuries for so many of my friends and colleagues. Now, when you hear us talking about his journey to becoming a surgeon, starting with his perfect SAT scores in high school, then with a full ride to college with his perfect SAT scores in high school, then with a full ride to college, but then an admittedly short collegiate basketball career at TCNJ due to injury. You can see how that injury might have helped shape his subsequent path to medical school residency, fellowship and now finally in his prime as a sports shoulder knee trauma orthopedic surgeon. He balances patient care, family and his personal goal to stay healthy himself. Dr Allert has come a long way. To quote a recent movie you know how long he's been waiting for this. Oh, he's about to make a name for himself here. It was so great to talk to Jesse about his life, his thoughts on CrossFit, fitness in general and where he might go from here. You might call him the Justin Herbert Chargers QB under Coach Harbaugh, or Jason Tatum, boston Celtic and former Blue Devil of orthopedic surgery. He's on the rise and he's only going to get better. I hope you enjoy listening to Dr Allard as much as I did speaking with him. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees, the surgical edition. I have with me a very special guest, orthopedic surgeon, dr Jesse Allert. I've known Jesse for a long time from the gym. Let me intro you, jesse, and let me recount all of your accomplishments and your achievements over the years. So you're a Staten Island kid, born and raised in Staten Island and you are probably one of the only surgeons I know who had a perfect 1600 on your SAT coming out of high school, which is a pretty notable accomplishment. Love that. And, as you say, you flex it, or actually your colleagues make you flex it every time they have an opportunity to make fun of you about it.
Speaker 1:Your undergrad you went to the College of New Jersey, tcnj, where you played basketball. You went to New York Medical College in Valhalla for your medical degree and then you did your orthopedic surgical residency at Seton Hall University. You did your shoulder and elbow reconstruction, traumas and sorry, shoulder and elbow reconstruction, sports and trauma fellowship down at Florida Orthopedic Institute in Tampa and they have over 70 physicians. That is a ginormous institution. That is crazy, enormous institution. That is crazy. And I want to talk to you a little bit about your fellowship in a second. But since your fellowship you've been out about eight years, I think, or so Is that right Only 16. Yep, yep. And you're an assistant professor at Hackensack Meridian School of Medicine and you've been at your practice restoration orthopedics for the entire duration. You are the go-to expert for shoulder injury, sports trauma and reconstruction and anything that has to do in those areas, including arthroplasty. So welcome Jesse. Thanks for joining me on this podcast, and I really appreciate you taking the time. I know how busy you are, so.
Speaker 2:I will give you a formal thank you for your invite. It's scary to think that I'm almost 10 years in practice number one. It's also scary to think that I'm almost I've kind of known you for, I think, almost 13 or 14 years, so I don't know exactly when Bison started, exactly when bison started, but I remember you were always the uh resourceful person in the gym that had uh dermabond in his car all times. Um, and now it's you uh succeeding still in your private practice and uh dominating the uh the scene here on multiple venues, multiple platforms and obviously knowing your reputation, I I appreciate the advice.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Well, I know we keep you busy at our gym in terms of supplying you with no end of patience, and I want to get your thoughts in a little bit later about what you think about CrossFit and in your line of work. But let me first talk to you about your training and what got you into orthopedic surgery. So let me ask you just straight up why, why ortho? What made you go into ortho and what was it that appealed to you about it?
Speaker 2:appeal to you about it. Um, so always a complex answer. I don't have a specific uh uh reason, I guess, uh, it probably goes way back to um, medical school and college. And I went to the college of New Jersey, had a great time there, full scholarship, uh, did, did well always, grades kind of came easy to me and I my mom was a nurse, um, always, uh, you know, got great care at home when I got a uh, uh when I was sick by my mom, um, and then uh, since you brought up the SAT score, I'll be fully transparent and say, uh, when I first took my MCAT junior year in college, um, I kind of thought I was going to just do well and didn't work very hard at it and I paid the price on my first MCAT and um, um, so I wound up having to take it a second time and gave up a good chunk of my. I guess it would be senior year to take it again.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, did, did well enough to get into medical school. But, interestingly, in college I actually had a shoulder injury. I feel like I've probably broken almost 10 bones over the course of my life, most of them when I was younger, so maybe I got some kind of subconscious exposure. Always was around traders and therapists playing basketball and again, full transparency. I did play basketball at Division III College of New Jersey, but I only played for maybe a year and a half before I tore my labrum and had surgery and I scored one point in my college career.
Speaker 2:So I'm no Aaron Stuyvesant. I could tell my kids that I scored um and it was on the second free throw of the two free throws that I took freshman year.
Speaker 2:so there was a lot of pressure, pressure on that free throw so um, but uh, yeah, I had labral surgery, I had shoulder surgery and um, it actually didn't go perfectly, but I did did like my surgeon, I got great exposure to him and then fast forward to um, you know, through medical school into residency Um, I actually rotated at St Joseph's um, which is not, which is also known as a Seton hall program in Patterson, and I always thought it was kind of this under the radar program where, um I mean, being in Patterson, I got um it was. You know, I won't I won't talk to you about old school programs, but I'll say it was a very uh, a ton of responsibility early um in a good way for training um and uh, a ton of independence.
Speaker 2:Uh, early too. And in Patterson for orthopedics you'd be taking call, you know, spine, hand trauma and foot and ankle, all at the same time which?
Speaker 1:is a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in Patterson, as I think most people know, you're around a lot of highways so you get high energy trauma. Get high energy trauma, but you also um sort of see uh penetrating trauma. So knives and guns can create interesting patterns for uh traumatic injuries, as, as you know, as well.
Speaker 2:And so I got great exposure there, but I didn't really get the exposure and shoulder and elbow until, like shoulder replacements and shoulder arthroscopy until more third year.
Speaker 2:And it was at that time that I got to spend some time in Princeton with, uh, one of my mentors, jeff Abrams, who's an arthroscopist who makes everything look um, look simple and um, just technically gifted but also such a nice guy, nice enough to make me feel welcome in the in the OR as a third year president and just one of the giants and uh and and um shoulder surgery and he kind of, you know, swayed me a little bit towards shoulder and elbow. So uh, long-winded answer to say I probably don't know. It was like a lot of things, just kind of who you bump into and who who persuaded you and um and so um wound up in Tampa, finally got out of New York, new Jersey, and wound up in Tampa for a year with uh with two great uh mentors, dr Franklin, dr Mile and um came back to New Jersey because uh family and friends are still in good old Staten Island Then my wife's family are still in the Jersey shore, so right.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, no, family always. Yeah, yeah, no, you got ties around here. You got to come back, that's always the way it is of course.
Speaker 2:Not everyone makes it out of Staten Island, so I can still say I made it to New Jersey, I guess, if that counts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's quite a hop, skip and a jump for most Staten Islanders, that's for sure. But so at this point you have been into practice for about eight years now, and I know eight years in I felt like I really started to get a handle on a lot, like you know what you're doing for the of cases and you're constantly seeing a lot of pathology. You really start to develop your own style, what you like, how to really refine and hone your technique. What would you say over the past eight years has been the best way for you to get better at what you do?
Speaker 2:So I'll say I remember Mark Frankel, one of my mentors in Tampa, used to always say when you first come out of fellowship, be humble, don't be overconfident, ask for help. If you're not sure about something, ask for people to come in and help you out or assist. And, um, I think, especially early on, if there's something there, if there was anything, even trauma wise or whatever, that I wasn't comfortable with, then, um, I try, you know, you try not to let your um ego get in the way and make sure you call for help. Or if you're, you know everyone has come. If you operate, you have complications if you operate, so, um, make sure you include everyone, um, and ask mentors or other experts in the area, kind of, what their feelings are if you have questions. So, um, and even still to this day, uh, you know I'm lucky enough to be on WhatsApp chats and groups, all sorts of groups that really are from across the country, whether they're alumni from the same fellowship or residency um, that I am not shy about sending uh cases to take votes.
Speaker 2:If I see a patient with a controversial case, I'll say look, this is what I would do. I think I could also do this. If you want, I'll, I'll get you 10, 10 opinions with tonight and I'll let you know the vote by tomorrow, which I think is key. Uh, it's always funny. I mean I won't ask you uh or I will ask you maybe. Yeah, when when you train, you know, um, I, I remember the days where I couldn't look up a video on youtube on how to reduce the swell in the er. You had to look at little stick figures on a on a fracture hand, go down and kind of pretend like you knew what you were doing and uh, um, and so you know for free. I still remember paper charts and all these things and, and, and you know, when you trained you didn't have, uh, epic or emrs to look up x-rays or right, so no, that that's listen.
Speaker 1:When I I took a fair amount of hand call, especially at michigan, and a lot of distal radius fractures, and I always was like why, as a plastic surgeon, am I dealing with these distal radius fractures? This is this. We should stop somewhere in the carpal bone, you know, somewhere at the wrist. But but that's what we did. So I, you know I would go down there and there inevitably would be a bazillion distal radius fractures.
Speaker 1:Have the portable C arm, do the reduction like you know, get the films like you know. Get the films. Um, yeah, my bosses never won all. They didn't care about anything other than throw the films under their door so that they could take a look at the reduction for the next day. And so I got really good at uh, being a wrangler for the, for the c-arm, getting the reduction, you know, getting them, uh, in traction, you getting it all set up and and then you know actually back now that I look back at it, it was kind of fun dealing with all the K wires and and the plates and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:But at the time it was you're right, I, if I didn't know something, I would. I would open up greens, the textbook in the call room, I'd look at it really quick and then I'd be like, okay, I think I know enough from this that I think I could try to figure it out when I get back, when I get down, uh, to the ER. So uh, you're right.
Speaker 1:It's uh, the the learning curve is is much better, and the way people learn now is is probably a lot better than than it was back in the day, so I appreciate your, your humbleness on the matter, but, um, you know, to me it's always interesting.
Speaker 2:it's the orthopedists that call the plastic surgeons often when they need help with, uh, you know, soft tissue coverage, or I have colleagues you know, like like yourself, that you know, orthopedists are trained to do exposures that keep you away from the nerves most of the time, or away from the vessels, um, and it's the plastic surgeons that can get you in and get you out of trouble and uh, and so that's why it's good to be it's the plastic surgeons that can get you in and get you out of trouble, and so that's why it's good to be nice to the plastic surgeons and befriend them so that they can help you if you have a time of need.
Speaker 1:It's very kind for you to say. I also know that the ortho guys really only call us in when they're not in a good spot, having worked with some of the hard back guys and the hardware coverage guys. Uh, like it's usually when they're calling in the like, the enlightened uh ortho guys will call you in early. The uh ones who uh are not quite there yet will call you in uh only under desperate. But that's okay, we all work together well. I am a closet ortho guy at heart.
Speaker 1:I think, what you guys do actually is way more functional and interesting and, from a functional standpoint, even more now that I CrossFit and I get so much more of an exposure to shoulder anatomy and knee anatomy and, you know, hip anatomy fun being a doctor and being a doctor in the community and being able to help people, and people call you up for advice or help.
Speaker 2:I would say probably about half the phone calls I get from my, you know, from town or from friends of friends, I get my number and I always say give me a call after whatever. Half of them are maybe for a broken ankle or but the other half are for, you know, lacerations. They got a cut on the lip or the face or, and they want to know a plastic surgeon to call. So you know, it's good to know the plastic surgeons, like yourself.
Speaker 1:So very true, I have. I'm always available and happy to help people if they're in need for something like that. For sure, I just saw someone this weekend who smashed the finger on a dumbbell, so I was happy to help with that too. Saw someone this weekend who smashed their finger on a dumbbell, so I was happy to help with that too, yeah. So at this point, what are one of your favorite surgical procedures to do? What do you really enjoy doing in the OR at this point?
Speaker 2:Well, luckily, I still like shoulder surgery, which is nice, since that's where the fellowship ends, and I think when you think about shoulder surgery it doesn't sound like a broad scope or like you have to have a broad breadth of knowledge or expertise to sort of focus on this area. So, but I like being able to do open surgeries like shoulder replacements, but also being able to do arthroscopies like rotator cuff repairs or labral beds. I have to choose one in each. I would probably say arthroplasty. I think there's nothing. I think it's a fun case technically. But I can usually just look at an x-ray before you walk in and say I can help this patient reliably.
Speaker 2:And I think the mindset is you see, these people that have had pain for a decade or so or five to 10 years, they're used to living with pain. They forget what it's like to have a smoothly articulating joint. And then you know, a week after surgery usually they sort of say, look, I didn't have as much pain as I thought it was going to I was going to have because it used to living in pain. Their mindset's different. And then a week after they're kind of feeling better. So so shoulder replacement is great, and then probably labral repair surgery.
Speaker 2:So you know shoulder dislocations, uh, in the athletic population of the younger um, because I always say it's, it's interesting because it's one of the few things that were more aggressive about fixing um, because the literature is so strong about decreasing the recurrence for instability in um, you know, teenagers or um or or athletes in the younger twenties. So, um, and again, I had labral surgery when I was younger, so I kind of um know the goods and bads and um, um, yeah, I mean I had an implant put in more than 20 years ago that when it first came out, um, they thought it sounded cool cause it was an absorbing anchor. But what they didn't know at the time was that when it absorbs, it leaves a giant cyst in your socket. So I've actually had a recurrent injury, which I won't bore you with details of, but where it fractured through the glenoid, and so I also think I have unique insight into implants and try to avoid complications, absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know a lot of people who have labral tears so they just kind of live with it. Is this something, now that the literature is saying, maybe you should be more aggressive about addressing them? Because I didn't know this back in the day, I thought a lot of people just kind of tried to manage it non-ssurgically yeah, I would say there's different types of labral tears.
Speaker 2:So I think, um, for my from for the labral tear that I had, I did not dislocate my shoulder, my shoulder, when I was, uh, um, in college I was lifting weights. You know watching myself in the mirror get a nice pump with like a 10 pound dumbbell. I wasn't even doing anything interesting and I just felt my shoulder give way.
Speaker 2:I was not lifting, samri uh weights, um and uh, and I just felt my shoulder give way and I didn't have an opportunity to try physical therapy, and I probably should have. And, honestly, if this, if, if I saw my injury now, I wouldn't have recommended surgery. So, um, the surgeries that were usually a little bit more um, aggressive recommending are complete dislocations. Where you're nervous of that, somebody's just going to continue to dislocate and um, but yeah, I mean now I have a labral tear on my left shoulder and I, I, you know I'm still able to do most um activities and do pull-ups and and not as many as I was able to do, uh, while I was, and chris, but um, but yeah, I mean labral tears. I think if it's, it depends on how much is bothering you if you have instability. If you don't have instability, then you can absolutely leave it at least so yeah it's interesting how the literature has shifted.
Speaker 2:But we both have mutual friends that have labral tears, that were left alone and are doing just fine.
Speaker 1:So now you operate both in your own surgery center is that right? As well as out at other hospitals. So when you set up. I assume it's probably different when you're at a hospital like Valley or Hackensack versus when you're in your own setup. But is there anything that you really like to have or is part of your prep routine as a surgeon, to just sort of get you in, you know, locked in or in the mode or ready to go for for any particular surgery?
Speaker 2:Uh, I think one of the good things about doing the same surgeries over and over and I do have a fair amount of trauma in my practice is from taking calls and I enjoy that and I have great partners that you know.
Speaker 2:If I have a trauma that I don't see, very often that requires sort of someone that did a fellowship, then I have Julie Keller to back me up. But when you do the same surgery kind of over and over, it's it's just nice to have people in the room that know the routine and know how to set up. Now I have we have a physician assistant. That's great that you know, knows what to prep with what to, because occasionally I'm sure, as you know and and you know not to name valley's always been great actually with like preference cards. That's like one of the most impressive things I've ever seen with valley. Like you do one case there and they have everything recorded. But, um, certainly you get someone who is maybe new to the OR or doesn't know your routine. It's nice to have people that help you set up before you even get in the room, like the position assistant. I think that's great.
Speaker 1:What do you listen to in the OR when you operate?
Speaker 2:So I am still partial to my Staten Island roots and go club. Uh, dance music Really. So I said uh, I stick with a Vici or Calvin Harris, um and uh, cause I think that that's maybe a little bit more mainstream. I, I would, um, I would say that, um it. It can be a little annoying when you hear the suction and the noise of the. I don't listen to my music very loud because obviously you want to be able to hear everyone.
Speaker 2:But with the suction and all the other noises going on, sometimes it drowns out the vocal and all you hear is the bass.
Speaker 2:So it can be repetitive, but I'll also say that I read the room and I would say, on Monday, my case is, I listened to Frank Sinatra, because I always ask the patient what they want to listen to when they are going to sleep. So I had a patient that said Frank Sinatra, and both me and the anesthesiologist looked at each other. We said this is kind of, you know, relaxing and feeling like a good Monday playlist. And so we listened to Frank Sinatra and, uh, my partner listens to, uh, to to country. So, um, we listened to country for the second half of the day, uh, to appease my partner and thank him for his assistance. So what are you listening to.
Speaker 1:Well, I do a lot of in-office stuff so the patients are usually just like lightly sedated. So a lot of it's kind of like lo-fi, chill type music. Back in the day when I was operating in the hospital more it was a lot of 90s kind of grunge like. If you ever hear sirius xm lithium, like you know yeah, okay yeah, like limp biscuit or pearl jam or I don't know whatever else so so there's a lot of that there.
Speaker 1:Um, I you got to read the room. Like you said, though if you put that on too loud, the uh scrubs and the a lot of time. The circulators are a little bit on the older generation, so you got to kind of, you know, you got to put on a little bit of the 70s, 80s, 90s, smooth mix type stuff.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right, yeah, yeah, to keep them. You know it's interesting for what. I don't like silence in the room, so I like to have a little bit of a something to you know, keep everybody calm and um, uh, I feel like they had studies about that at one point in the past, about you know what happens whether you have music or not and the. You know it wasn't like an increased complication rate, so it's not like we're all dancing around the OR, not dancing around the OR, not paying attention, but maybe it enhances the flow and the you know the camaraderie there in the case and I think I think it's good that music on first.
Speaker 1:Listen anything that I've heard so many different answers and I will say as long as it, I think if it gets you into flow state where you know what it's like you're in the OR and it's like it feels like it's 10 minutes but it's really like you know 90, then you know whatever it is that got you into that sort of state is good.
Speaker 1:You know you're you're locked in and you're just sort of you're not even thinking like everything just sort of naturally flows for you, like that, you know. And for some people it might be country, some people it might be Frank Sinatra, some people it might be Steve Aoki, who knows? But I think everyone's personality is a little bit different, so that's why I like asking that one, yeah you have a family.
Speaker 1:How do you do? How do you? You're still busy as hell. You're taking call, you're, you're working your ass off, I assume. How do you manage your time, like? What kind of time management skills do you practice to make sure that you're sort of getting everything done and yet also spending time, you know, with your loved ones and everything else?
Speaker 2:you know, uh with your loved ones and and everything else.
Speaker 2:Uh, I'm not sure that I do manage the time, great, you have to ask my wife at times, uh, but I think, um, I think for me I have a three-year-old and a six-year-old at home and, um, I think, with my schedule, so I have my elective shoulder cases, um, and then I also have managed to set aside time for um for cold stuff. I mean, the hospitals have really gotten a lot better, and even just in the last 12 months, about getting cases in in the morning. So I actually try and free up my morning sometimes to take care of uh sort of the trauma cases that come in overnight, but sometimes care of uh sort of the trauma cases that come in overnight, but sometimes, as you know, it's like you sit up and wait and then it's a quiet night or so, instead of feeling feeling like a um, like a failure, sorry, and not and not being busy or st I, I totally embrace it and I stay home, drown my kids off and try and, uh, um, you know, try and take advantage of any downtime.
Speaker 2:I remember when I first came out again from fellowship, um, my mentors would kind of say, uh, don't feel bad if you're not busy, take, take advantage. You know, down the road you're going to miss those times. And uh, um and. And so, yeah, I mean any downtime, I try and take advantage and plan ahead.
Speaker 1:So you know, the good thing.
Speaker 2:You're a private practice guy and kudos to you. I'm still that's. That's still a work in progress and as someone who hopes to have a few more decades of practice at them, it's funny to see the landscape change and you know we thought about or had offers to join other groups. But it's still nice to be your own boss too. So occasionally if I get in the weeds and maybe have a rough week or two, or I can always set aside an afternoon to take my kids somewhere or do something fun.
Speaker 1:That's really nice. I might ask you re-interview in five years and see where you're sitting in terms of your practice. I mean, I know a lot of surgeons with private equity or with these really super mega practices like they're. It's started, the you're, like you said, the landscape's changing, there's a lot of money being thrown around, whether or not that's best for you, your life or, um yeah, your future. Practice is always, is always an issue.
Speaker 2:I think so yeah, your future practice is always is always an issue. I think so, yeah, tough to predict the future. Again, I give you credit. You're you're do you have any PAs? Or you're kind of by yourself, right, pretty solo yeah. I have a one man army.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You can get away with that in plastic surgery, not so much on the other side. But I've already seen people that thought it was going to be good and then you know, quickly realize it was not as good as they thought, and and you know it comes full circle. But you never know, and so I I try and play nice in the sandbox and be nice to everyone because, um, you know, I always joke. I never know who's gonna. Uh, you know, try and take over the practice, or. Or you know, join, want to join, or or join forces, or what.
Speaker 1:So you're absolutely right. And I think we I'm not going to name names either, but I'm just thinking of one, one shoulder guy who joined and then quickly got out and I think the experience was less than uh, less than optimal for, for, for him. Um, so then what do you do now for fitness for yourself? You look like you've been maintaining your fitness. I haven't seen you at our gym in a while, but I will say you still look like you're keeping up. So what does an orthopedic surgeon do to maintain his fitness?
Speaker 2:So I will say that whenever I bump into anyone from the crossfit gym uh, including yourself, sam I am motivated. In the back of my head I said, man, I'm not, I'm not in good shape. I gotta get back in good shape and go back. Um, um, for me, it's become I I go to the good old ymca, so I kind of was raised lifting weights in the staten island ymca and, and there's a YMCA about a mile and a half from me which winds up being a good run to and from and I'm just doing boring old weights and trying to run and even swimming.
Speaker 2:You know my, my recurrent injury when my shoulder started bothering me a little bit. Uh, in 2021, I took up swimming again and, um, growing up, high school, it was always my best sport was actually swimming, so I've missed it and, um, it's actually, uh, it's, it's a great escape. So I don't have an Apple watch that I can take with me in the water, I can't take my cell phone with me in the water and, um, you know, it's a great escape to be submerged and doing, doing laps and what, what. I gave up because I eventually thought it was boring to just swim 300 laps for practice and and in training.
Speaker 1:Uh, I've actually wound up returning to so yeah, and I would think that that probably is as good of a fitness regimen as anything out there. For sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:Are you doing any cardio? Are you doing any? You know cardio. I just try to lift my barbells faster.
Speaker 1:That's my cardio right there. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:No, actually.
Speaker 1:Dave has us running a lot these days. I don't know, I think he's trying to turn us all into these high rocks athletes, and so I'm just like uh I'm just trying to be on a good block, yeah, so so, uh, yeah, we did a bunch of 400s today.
Speaker 2:I was like no thanks, um, yeah, intervals, so anyway, um I always remember you on the wednesday morning workouts with the uh cardio. Still, you know, dominating uh, um. So those are the weight, I don't know. I'll be still doing that on Wednesday morning yes, those are my favorites.
Speaker 1:Yes, you're right, the, the um, the body weight, uh stuff, is there's always one programmed every week. It just um. We've he's mixed it up now so it's not always on a Wednesday, sometimes it's on a Tuesday or Thursday, just so that people you know, if you only come in for a certain time, a certain day, every week you didn't get the same thing. So this way you could mix it up for people. But you're right, I think you know the way to get fit, and I truly believe it is how well do you move your own body Right? It's not like moving an external load, it's really. You know, as you get older, you have to be able to move your own body well, and, and so I am a strong believer in that- Um, yeah, yeah, I, I completely agree.
Speaker 2:I actually regret uh, I think, working on coordination and you see people tripping and falling uh uh, as as they get older it's. It's funny.
Speaker 2:I listened to, um, uh, peter Atia, who's a medical doctor who's all into longevity and you know his podcast of four hours and they go really into the weeds. Maybe probably a little bit too much for a lot of people, but um, but he says his favorite lifting exercise is, um, you know, step ups on and and and, umups and box jumps, because he feels like it's going to help him the best to keep him from tripping down a curve or tripping up a curve when he gets older. I think CrossFit has a role and a lot of those functional exercises are great and are going to keep those joints young. Sam, that's so funny.
Speaker 1:I'm coaching to Thursday and the workout are weighted step-ups and box jumps. That's part of it. So you just hit the nail on the head on that one. When you see patients who are athletes and they ask you about CrossFit, what do you say to them? Do you encourage it? Do you tell them? Do you tell them, do you caution them about certain movements? I know you, you know, you're very familiar with it. That's why a lot of um, uh people at our gym and other gyms trust you is because, like you said you, you walk the walk, you talk the talk. You've known, uh, you, you know exactly what this is all about. So, so what is your advice when you talk to to patients or or just anyone interested in in exercise?
Speaker 2:Uh. So when I, when I came to CrossFit, uh, I think I was a third year resident, um, and a lot of the brunt of doing calls, um calls, was on the earlier side of residency. So first, second, third year, and so I was working hard, not sleeping well, and I'm sure you know you come home after a long day and you come home in the morning, and I felt like I earned the brownie a la mode for breakfast when I got home after a long night of running around the ER. So I came, you know I was probably about nothing terrible, but probably about 20 pounds overweight. My back was hurting, and so usually what I tell people is people are nervous about injuries and you can get injured doing doing you know anything for my, for me, my personal experience, I stay within my comfort zone.
Speaker 2:I. I joined a good gym with people that I still respect and um, um and and think about and um, you know, I think, um for me, going to crossfit, I actually wound up, lost, losing weight. I I uh, uh. My back pain, pain went away. I felt like I was in the best shape of my life and for me, actually, even with studying fourth and fifth year and still to this day. I can remember some sort of workout. I think it might've been 100 wall balls. Does that sound like?
Speaker 1:maybe that's easy to you. There's 150 wall ball workout.
Speaker 2:That, uh, yeah it was 100 wall balls and I remember um looking up at the target um, which I think was just like a like a little red line, not like the fancy, you know, gym that that you guys have now, but, um, and I just remember the mental toughness of of just trying to just suck it up and keep pushing the wall ball, um, and I still think of that occasionally when I feel like I'm tired or and this is an all aspects of life, not just surgery, but I think back. I think it creates mental toughness and, um, you know, so it's a good escape. I think it was good for for me. It helped prevent injuries, if anything, and it helped me, um, it helped with my back pain. Um, I think for me, and I I bet you, Dave still remembers this about me, but I was probably one of the least flexible people in the thing.
Speaker 2:Um, so I I had to, you know, I had to, uh, scale a lot of my workouts cause I couldn't get. You know, I can't do front, I couldn't do overhead squats, or I was nervous I was going to hurt something. So for me it probably would not have been smart to be lifting heavy weights with an overhead squat, because I'm not flexible enough. It's just not in my genes.
Speaker 1:I've tried and tried, so you know so it must be something about the TCNJ basketball players, because Aaron was exactly the same way as you. So it must be. It must be the college you guys went to, or something I don't know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so, but I think CrossFit's great and I think I still have patients that that do. I was encouraged to do it by two orthopedic surgeons that were all that were both in probably the best shape of their life and they were 10, 15 years older than me. They were both in probably the best shape of their life when they were 10, 15 years older than me. And then I met Nick Benedetto and my wife was friends with him and I came and gave it. I thought it was great. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:I still think it's great and, of course, everything does have some risk to it. So you do see patients who are CrossFitters, who have, say, shoulder issues. Now, as a surgeon, I know most surgeons just want to operate. They don't want their clinics filled with a bunch of non-operative people that don't need anything, that are just kind of sucking up your time. So what is your ideal clinic day in terms of when do you want to see patients with shoulder injuries? Like it's not like when they first feel a little twinge? I assume it's like at what point are you like? You know what. You don't need to see physio or PT. You need to come and see me. Like at what point is it that you're like? Yeah, you gotta. You gotta give me a call for this.
Speaker 2:Um, you know it's funny. Uh, I was just talking today about a perfect clinic day and when I was in fellowship, my again you know, dr Frankel used to see his um shoulder replaces back annually and they probably didn't need to come back. There was nothing new that he added, they just kind of had a conversation they said. He said selfishly, it's nice to see your, your patients, come back annually to remind you that you have success out there and you help people, because ultimately, you know, your clinic becomes filled with patients with injuries or patients that have maybe complications or issues, because those are the people that want to come back. Once they do good, they leave, they don't want to come back. But so that you know, I was just thinking of that today. But as far as, as far as injuries, I mean, I have a, we have a physician assistant that helps to see sort of some of the stuff that are that are a little bit more non-operative or um, but I still see people that say I don't, I don't want to come. You know I don't need to come to you. You're you're a surgeon and I don't necessarily want surgery. I mean some of the best relations that I have are with physical therapists or, um, you know, chiropractors or whatever that I send people to. And, uh, you know, again, I still live with the um idea that I may have been fine with physical therapy with my labrum uh, you know, 23 years ago, and I wish that I'd tried that before surgery. Um, and and and with shoulder surgery it's. It's interesting because there are people with walking around with rotator cuff tears, full, full thickness rotator cuff tears or labral tears that maybe don't you know, don't even know it, and these this is in the literature. So not everyone needs to be fixed. And, to be honest, this is why I like my traumas. Sometimes I like taking fall.
Speaker 2:You see someone in the trauma bay with with fault, with a bone that comes through the skin. You know that they need surgery. It's not really so. It's not a lot of conversation. You're like, yeah, let's get you in and they don't really have many questions and, um, so I, you know, I have PowerPoints, that kind of walk people through different injuries for shoulder surgery and when to operate and when not to, and there's not many catastrophic things in the shoulder that you can't leave alone and try non-operative first. So I don't, I don't always mind the conversations and I think it builds rapport and relationships before you operate. So that's nice. So you know, I think there are some great practices out there, you know, that are set up where you see the, you know the PA or whatever before, and then you get worked up and then when you need surgery, that's when you meet the surgeon.
Speaker 1:So I don't mind seeing people without surgical problems, so yeah, Do you focus more on the function versus anatomy, like I know some crossfitters and their shoulders are destroyed but they're still pretty functional. But I think if, but maybe for the long term, they might benefit from actually doing something instead of just kind of you know, gutting it out like how, what's your philosophy on on that?
Speaker 2:you know, function versus anatomy, like yeah, I think, um, I think that's something like the labrum. So if you have a labrum in a 15 year old and there's um there, there's some bone loss there, I tell patients, you know, 90% chance you're going to dislocate again. The second dislocation is going to get worse and then the third dislocation is going to get worse. And you see these horrible situations in kids that don't get it treated. So you know that's something that we've become more aggressive about. But you know, rotator cuff tear, same thing or younger, you know you see a, a 40 year old active person with a rotator cuff there. We know the statistics that it's going to progress. So those things maybe you want to be a little bit more aggressive about.
Speaker 2:But, um, you know there are plenty of other things that that. That, yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting. I don't know about you and um, but but you know, for orthopedic surgery you're not always taught, not always taught the ins and outs of physical therapy. So I think it's great to have good physical therapists that you can refer to and that really are better at functional adaptations that somebody might. Maybe your scapula is just a little bit off and that's what's causing you pain. You go to um, see a good physical therapist? Uh, and they can. They can help you out and then change your function a little bit and then your pain goes away.
Speaker 1:So, um, now if I wanted to be dr jesse allard someday. Like I'm listening to this podcast, I'm like you know what. His life sounds. Pretty cool. I like, I want to do this. I want to become him. Then what kind of advice would you give either to a high school student, a college student, medical student, resident, someone starting out in their practice, Like what? What kind of how would you help someone be you at the in the future?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, um. So I think, um, I think, you know, stay humble, network the heck out of yourself and be nice to everybody. I know that's probably, you know, super cliche, but, um, you know, I, I was talking with you off air and I said, uh, you, you interviewed me to give me my privileges at one of the local hospitals. I said, man, I was glad, I'm glad you know Sam, sam doesn't hate me for you know, I don't know bad mouth and grossed it or whatever which I didn't you know.
Speaker 2:I'm glad I you know. So it's, it's uh. I could think of so many um times where where networking was really key, I mean that's key in life, key in orthopedic surgery, key in whatever and um, and again, right now, I, I, I, I like to say that, um, the people in my department I get along with I think it's uh, um, and so you know, it doesn't take a good score on SAT. You can, you can, you can make it in other ways.
Speaker 1:So I was about to say do you have to get a 1600? Because that might be a little rough for some people to, to, to try to have to get lucky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, um well so yeah, I mean I would say, uh, having known you for all these years, yes, I would say and I don't know if that's intrinsic to you or that's something you developed I think that's actually part of your personality. You're someone who does relate very well to um, to a lot of different people. You have a personality that's very engaging. You're, um, you are really humble, Like I. Just you know, I mean you sell yourself short about your athletic ability and what you've done.
Speaker 1:Trust me, I know, cause I've seen you work out and and so I feel like, um, those, that's really good advice because, um, yeah, I do like there's no doubt. I remember seeing you in credentials saying I know him, he's a really great guy, he's he's not just to me, but when you see, when I saw you interacting with everybody else, that's really more important. It's not like you're a suck up to like the big guys, like you just were nice to anyone that was there. It didn't matter if they, if you thought they were above you or below you, like you just were yourself, which you know really carries people a long way, actually, I think.
Speaker 2:Well, you, you challenge yourself in in every uh, in multiple aspects of life, athletic and career wise. I mean of life, athletic and career-wise. I mean, you know this is my first podcast, so I said I turned on the camera. I said I got to get rid of the garbage bag in the back Cleaning myself up here so I can, you know, fake it till.
Speaker 1:I make it. I'm on a podcast here. Well, you made it really well for eight years, I mean. So now, what are you going to do for your next decade of your career? At this point, what are your goals? What do you want to do? What are your aspirations?
Speaker 2:What's important to you at this point. I'm in a unique spot because I've been in one job since I came out of fellowship. It's with two people that I've known since residency and it's always interesting. I don't know what's on the other side of the. You know if the grass is greener on the other side of the fence for some of these situations and the insurance landscape is constantly changing and so you know all. That being said, you know you've been on the side of administration.
Speaker 2:I don't really have any of these goals at the moment. I kind of want to see what opportunities come my way, but for me it's kind of I do have to look intrinsically sometimes and say is my balance? You know good, and my kids are getting older and maybe playing more sports or becoming more involved. And for me, you know like I, like most doctors, don't like paperwork. So I just sucked it up and hired a scribe, you know, four years ago, and that has, like changed my life and made my life easier, because I don't go home stressed with all these undue, undone notes.
Speaker 2:And so hiring a good physician assistant and just being around good people that can help you. If I have a trauma case and I have something else that day, my two partners will help me or sort of help. You know, take the case if I have to run somewhere. And so it all comes down to surrounding yourself with good people that can help you out and a good team. So I'm sure that I can develop a better team and maybe um and and be better at those things. But yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think you're, uh, I, I liken you. I would imagine you're like someone who has gotten out of their rookie contract. You're approaching free agency at this point. You're not, uh, you're not a max player yet who's 15 or years into the business, but you're very desirable. You're someone who I would say a lot of. If we were to use the pro sports analogy, they would want to sign you at this point. You have a lot of value, you can bring a lot to the table, so I'm sure you have a lot of value.
Speaker 2:I'll come on your podcast any day of the week.
Speaker 1:Sam.
Speaker 2:You know, I appreciate that, especially, you know, coming from you and yeah, so I mean it's nice, it's. I think I'm in a good position. When I came out of TCNJ and I, um and I and I loved college, I remember an interview of medical school in New York and somebody had never heard of TCNJ. So it's uh, you know it's an honor to be talking to a Columbia you know, graph and a and a and a dupe guy.
Speaker 2:And uh, um, and so you know, um, yeah I. I guess we'll see what happens in the next five to 10 years. I do think I'm in a good spot and I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:That's the funny thing about all these names. It's like none of it means Jack, like Jack Squad. At this point it's like like, how good are you as a surgeon? What kind of experience have you had? Like what are you like in the OR? And I have, and so, like you said, it's important to be humble. It really doesn't matter where you, where you've been, it's what you've accomplished, where you're going and what your plans are. And, like you said, I've seen you when, what, you were a resident and and then you left to come to be a fellow and then you came to Jersey and and seeing you now, like in the prime of your career, it's, it's. You are such you've been so steady and productive and focused on your success and it's amazing because that really hasn't changed you. I'm talking to you now and it's like I'm talking to a mature Jesse Allard that has just really sort of grown over the past eight years.
Speaker 1:Not a nose in the air, jesse Allard, I'm a big shot, jesse Allard, not a, you know, look at me.
Speaker 2:I credit that to being raised by a nurse.
Speaker 1:No one better to keep the doctor in line than a good medical, a nurse no, no one better to keep the doctor in line than a good medical.
Speaker 1:So, and I really look forward to like what you're going to do, because I I can see the wheels turning in terms of what you might want to to accomplish or or, or build, or or um challenge yourself with in the future, and so that's that's. Uh, that's very cool and, like I said, if, if there are people out there that want to become successful, I think there are a lot worse people they could emulate than you in terms of what you've done. And you made it look easy. Let me put it this way I know it wasn't easy. I know all those nights on call, I know your fellowship. I know, starting out in practice, your first couple years, it's a grind, and yet you have made it look pretty effortless, which shows you just how talented you are, because, I mean, I have a lot of scars mentally from all of those experiences and you look like you've come through pretty smooth with that, so that's very admirable.
Speaker 2:Well, it helps to have good role models, sam, so people that have been around for a few decades, so, uh, so I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Well, jess, uh, enjoy your kids also. I would say six and three are pretty special. It's a pretty special time. I know you're into sports. What are? What kind of sports are they doing right now for you? Uh?
Speaker 2:soccer and um and and dancing and baseball. Oh wow, which is funny. So yeah, I'm trying to get them into swimming or basketball. So yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1:That's really cool.
Speaker 2:Not quite the carousel like some other people have with driving their kids around. Like you know, better than I do, you're the better at parenting. Yeah, and you're doing so well. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:So, jess, it's been awesome. Thank you so much. I look forward to seeing you in person around soon. And, like I said, restoration Orthopedics you're 113 West Essex Street, suite 201, maywood, new Jersey. Shoulder like sports trauma, reconstruction, arthroplasty, like if I. I hope I never need surgery ever in my life, but if I ever have a problem, you're the first person I'm going to be talking to about it.
Speaker 2:I appreciate the time, appreciate the kind words. Thanks so much for having me, sam. All right, thank you so much, Jess.