Botox and Burpees
Botox and Burpees
S05E101: Inside the World of Investment Banking: How Finance Careers Are Decided in College
The secretive world of Wall Street recruitment has always fascinated outsiders – but few understand just how early the talent pipeline begins. Host Sam Rhee chats with his daughter, Sasha Rhee, about her journey and experiences in securing a summer internship at an investment banking firm. Sasha, a sophomore at Duke University, walks us through the intensive networking process, the technical preparation, and the strategic self-marketing needed to stand out in a sea of qualified candidates.
She also compares investment banking with asset management, discusses the rigorous interview process, and emphasizes the value of genuine interest and soft skills. The episode highlights the importance of making early career decisions and the challenges that come with them, providing a detailed look into the competitive world of investment banking from the perspective of a young aspirant.
Most tellingly, Sasha reflects that the grueling process serves as its own filter: "If you don't like recruiting, you're not going to make it in banking."
Whether you're considering a career in finance, parenting a college student, or simply curious about how Wall Street shapes its next generation, this conversation offers valuable insights into an often opaque world where career trajectories are determined remarkably early. Subscribe now to hear more thought-provoking discussions at the intersection of career, family, and personal growth.
#InvestmentBanking #FinanceCareers #CollegeToCareer #FinanceInternship #CareerAdvice #BankingJobs #FinanceCommunity #WallStreetLife #CareerGoals #BotoxAndBurpees
Welcome back to Botox and Burpees. I'm your host, dr Sam Rhee. I'm here with my regular guest star, sasha Rhee, and today we're going to talk a little bit about her personal experience, about her interest in investment banking. She recently got a summer internship at a elite boutique investment firm investment banking firm, and when she detailed to me what it took to get to that point, it really surprised me for a couple reasons. One is it was really fast.
Speaker 1:She's only a sophomore in college and what she had to do to get from there to here has already probably determined a great deal in terms of her future first job and her career, and I wanted people to know that these are things that you have to sort of look out for super early. The other thing is is I knew very little about investment banking and the whole job firm hiring process, and I thought it was so interesting where the titans of finance are, how they're created and how they're shaped, and so I wanted to talk to Sasha a little bit about her experiences and see you know how these finance bros become finance bros. So, first of all, welcome again, sasha. Yeah, you're a sophomore now at Duke and you just declared your major in economics, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, two weeks ago I signed my job offer for summer 2026 before I declared my major.
Speaker 1:Right. So you actually knew where you probably were going to be working at after you graduate school before you even declared your major as a sophomore which blew my mind because as a pre-med, I didn't know, obviously, where I was going to medical school until very late into my almost senior year, and most people actually take a year off after their senior year to sort of prep to apply to medical school. But for you, you already know where you're going to be working after you graduate, most likely.
Speaker 2:If I do a good job, yes, summer 2026.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's talk a little bit about investment banking, this really weird, esoteric world that I have no knowledge of. What made you decide? You know that this was something that finance and investment banking was something you're interested in.
Speaker 2:So when I got to Duke I joined our business society on campus, scale and Coin. It's like also, I guess, kind of symbolic of finance recruiting. Scale does the first info session for incoming freshmen the Sunday before classes start, so you start rushing Scale before you go to your first ever class as a college student. I joined Scale. I went through their new membership education process which introduced me to stock pitch a consulting case, a tech case, really all things you can do in the spheres of business-y, entrepreneurship type of industries, and I realized that finance is super, super big. I went into Duke thinking I wanted to go to law school but mom said, oh, maybe work for a couple of years. Out of it and her experience in finance, she said that she thinks my soft skills would be a good fit. So I learned a little bit about investment banking. It's a pretty big buzzword at Duke.
Speaker 2:A lot of Duke kids go into banking in New York City Everyone just talks about iBanking all the time.
Speaker 2:Ib, yes, and I don't even know what it is and I say IB, yeah. So that's kind of how I got introduced to it. I spoke to a lot of seniors that wanted to like, that were going into a post-grad. I actually wanted to be unique and different and I actually didn't want to like IB in a way because I didn't know if I wanted to do it and I felt like, oh, everyone's doing it just because, does anyone actually know what it is? Things like that. But I did more research. I joined a career-finding society, fellowship, things like that. I spoke to a lot of people because I really thought I would go into asset management instead, like mom. But I realized that banking is a really great place to start your career.
Speaker 1:Okay, so would you recommend that people who have any interest in business find their school's business fraternity and be a part of it, or some similar organization?
Speaker 2:I think so I think it gets you, I think it exposes you to a lot of things early on. You, I think it exposes you to a lot of things early on, like I thought actually when I joined Skill that I wanted to do consulting at first, and then I did the consulting case and realized I like actually like numbers and like diving into a business instead of like more theoretical, conceptual stuff. So I do think it exposes you very well and honestly, it wasn't even in the membership education process. It was like meeting upperclassmen who had done their junior summer internships, who were returning post-grad, because Skill has a lot of variety and we have people that go into sales and trading, private equity, ib, and we have people that decide to go to business, like you know, grad school for like other things, like law school, for instance and I think that exposure is very, very helpful as a freshman, since recruiting timelines are so early.
Speaker 1:So what is the difference between asset management and investment banking?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can break it into spheres a little bit. So banking, essentially it's called, like, the sell side. So you have the sell side and you have the buy side. In finance Again, I'm not a seasoned professional, I am a sophomore in college but from what I understand, you have the sell side and the buy side. The sell side essentially is where, like you have people who have money and people who need money, and bankers are in the middle of it. So they facilitate, like M&A, like mergers and acquisitions, they facilitate those transactions between companies of any size.
Speaker 1:And they make money off of it.
Speaker 2:And they make money off of it. So you basically get like that fee almost of like doing a transaction and so like that's why, like everyone during COVID was like, oh my God, no one's doing M&A activity. It's super slow Banks are, you know, having trouble. And then you see m&a within own banks, like ubs and credit suites. I think things like that that's the buy side, which is more is direct investing opportunity. That's like private equity, where you're directly investing into private companies, usually doing a leveraged buyout strategy. You're buying them and you're building them and you're selling them after like five years. Like cross, it is owned by a private equity firm, right.
Speaker 2:And then asset management is kind of more on the buy side where, like, there's a lot of different things you can do in asset management. You can be on the client side and work with clients. Wealth management is a type of asset management, but it's mostly just like doing portfolios based on a certain strategy or you're using a certain index like the S&P 500 or the Dow Jones. But those are the two differences. And going out of college, there are a lot more sell side banking opportunities. Then it's pretty hard to go directly into the buy side. It's straight into private equity, but more and more firms are opening up those opportunities than there were like five years ago.
Speaker 1:So like a hedge fund. What is that?
Speaker 2:That's buy side, okay, so they're directly investing in, like usually like some sort of, whatever their strategy is like long short, like they're, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So that's an asset management type of category.
Speaker 2:But it's just a more aggressive type versus. You could have like mutual funds and like what retirement portfolio is in. Those are technically portfolios that would also fall under like asset management. So asset management, otherwise known as investment management, is much broader.
Speaker 1:I see Okay. Investment management is much broader. I see Okay. So then what are the soft skills that you have? Strengths in that sort of help?
Speaker 2:you in this kind of endeavor? I think a lot of people. So I did a lot. So first of all, I did a lot of networking calls. I sent out 140 emails.
Speaker 1:How did you know to do this?
Speaker 2:Through like scale. So basically, the whole process if you want to recruit is that in order to get a first round interview, you need to network at these places. Basically, you want to reach out to alumni or people from your high school or like mutual friends or family friends.
Speaker 1:Any connections.
Speaker 2:Any connections you can have tab into and you basically want to talk to them. You want to show an interest in the firm and their career. You want to. It's called like a coffee chat basically.
Speaker 1:And when did you start doing this?
Speaker 2:this and I started reaching out like September, october of my, like October of my fall sophomore semester so a couple months ago yes, you started just like contacting everybody. Yes, everyone across all different firms, casting a really wide net, both buy side and sell side. I recruited for both and essentially, like that's one of the soft skills is that's like that's basically the first test and like the hurdle is that because if you have a good coffee chat and they really like you or they think that it's a coffee chat, the networking call.
Speaker 2:It's basically like a 2030 minute networking call where it's like you ask them about their journey. Why did they choose to work at this firm, why this group within this firm, why banking, why private equity, whatever out of 140.
Speaker 1:How many? Okay, yes, I'll talk to you I got 80 responses oh my god which is a really good hit rate.
Speaker 2:I didn't obviously like I think there were like 10 maybe that responded and then we never and they ended up like not responding or whatever, because they're super busy so you kept up 80 coffee chats but I also got.
Speaker 2:that's a significantly good hit rate. I must say A lot of kids at Duke have like a 20 to 30% hit rate. My hit rate was really good, partially because one Duke alum are very active, so that's very helpful, but also through my Korea Finance Society fellowship. If I put like KFS fellow reaching out in the subject line, that was very helpful because they had that KFS connection.
Speaker 1:So people should look for connections with these people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or like groups like even if I put like skill and coin, like I had a skill and coin mentor reach out to him, like things like that, where it's like more likely than just like Duke student reaching out, but even then, if you put Duke student reaching out, if they are Duke alum, they are most likely going to respond. And that's the important thing about going to a school like Duke where you have a lot of representation in finance, because there's probably a Duke alum in every single firm on Wall Street.
Speaker 1:Okay. But then if I'm a student at, say, my local state college, I'm sort of behind the eight ball when it comes to this because my alumni network maybe is not as active. If I don't have other connections or know people in it, then I'm starting with it's harder. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:It's harder to break through and that's what they call in finance, target and non-target schools. It can change Like there are boutiques out there whose target they only have like four target schools. For instance, and especially like Duke, we still don't have an undergraduate business school. So Ross is very popular. Indiana Kelly, you know schools like that, like UChicago, whatever, like things like that yeah, wharton, obviously like things like that are. Those are basically like target versus non-target schools. Duke is still a target school for most firms but it also kind of is like a cycle in the sense where a lot of recruiting and like firms will visit my campus. They're probably not visiting like a local state school's campus. That also is driven from the top down usually where if there's like MDs or like directors or Managing directors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like high up in the firm. A lot of them, if they want to Duke, for instance, will want to make trips down to Duke.
Speaker 1:It's almost unfair, in some sense Like it's self-perpetuating. So you have all these like muckety mucks who are big shots yeah. And then they kind of pull from their same background, like I went to.
Speaker 2:However, I will say that there are some firms that unexpectedly have schools that you wouldn't necessarily think like. They don't have an undergrad, business school or things like that, and that's also top down, so it is you know like and it is very possible. And I think that one of the things that makes it more possible, depending on where you're like, regardless of your school, is these things called. They're like diversity or like early recruiting programs.
Speaker 2:Basically, oh, so they're looking to widen their yes and so I don't know how this will continue to develop with, like, the new administration's ban on d guy. However, for instance, like where I'm working, summer 2026, I did their sophomore woman's program and that gave me an accelerated timeline. I had a first round much earlier than other people and had a final interview much earlier than other people.
Speaker 1:Somehow I don't think this is going to be the norm in the future.
Speaker 2:Yes, but there are these types of early recruitment programs where a lot of firms will have LGBTQ+ first college generation.
Speaker 1:So basically, take advantage of any opportunity you have.
Speaker 2:And apply and cast a very, very broad net.
Speaker 1:Okay, so then you uh had these coffee chats and they were like video or in person.
Speaker 2:Uh, most of them were over the phone because that's easiest, for like people in finance and a lot of people have to reschedule and you need to be very, very flexible and kind of take whatever time they give you and what do you guys talk about in these things?
Speaker 2:basically you ask them, like why they chose this?
Speaker 2:Because basically you also want to use the coffee chats so that if you do get a first, when you want them to like you, but then if you do get a first-round interview, you can reference them and say, oh, like, this helps you basically distinguish the firms on wall street, because on paper they all kind of look the same, but it's really when you talk to people, I think, is when you kind of get the okay, like they do things a little bit differently than this and they give you an insight into their everyday work as well.
Speaker 2:Um, for instance, like my firm, that are working at summer 2026. They are there's like bulge brackets and boutiques. Like we said, boutiques are like mostly strategic advisory, so they don't have a balance sheet themselves. They're solely giving advice as the middleman and that's what they're making their money on, whereas bulge brackets the bigger banks those are the ones with the balance sheets that can actually give money in a transaction I see so there's like one distinction right and like, so they're putting their own assets into play and boutique culture can be very different than bulge bracket culture.
Speaker 2:Their analyst classes they're smaller, things like that, and so that's something that you get through the coffee chat and basically you just kind of ask them, like why they chose this firm. Also, there's different groups, so you know, you could be like in a tech group, whatever. You could be a health care group and be like why did you choose this too? Like what's it? Like what's mentorship, like things like that. Because it's still a two-way. Like people do emphasize, recruiting is still a two-way street, like you want the firm to give you an offer, but also the firm wants you to take their offer.
Speaker 1:So what kind of questions would they ask you during these coffee chats?
Speaker 2:It's mostly you asking them questions and then like responding and you know, trying to keep a conversation. They will ask you like tell me about yourself.
Speaker 1:And what would you say?
Speaker 2:Well, so it really varied on like the vibe of the call Cause you would do have like that's the first question to basically every finance interview is tell me about yourself or walk me through your resume. That one is a little bit longer, like a minute and a half usually to a minute. If it's like a casual coffee chat it's a little bit more like I'm interested in blah blah, x Y Z, I'm involved in X Y Z, a third Duke alum you probably have a memorized almost speech at that point. Yeah, CrossFit is actually ate it up.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, I wanted to go to law school, but I knew I had experience business in my own personal life. My parents invested in our local CrossFit gym a couple years ago and that really, then I would spin that tail however I needed to, for whatever position I was applying for. Oh, so tricky, yeah, and a lot of people were very interested in that.
Speaker 1:I would say yeah, Because they're like that's crazy CrossFit. What is that To?
Speaker 2:get into the sophomore women's program for my now job. They actually said like the first question to get into women's program was like, oh, what's like a business you think is doing like bad or really good? And I said CrossFit is doing really bad and she thought it was really interesting. So I talked about the debt and all that and so, yeah, I think that's also something that's very important is lean into your interests and be genuine, because these bankers do so many of these calls that they can kind of tell like who's really interested and who's like going through the motions.
Speaker 1:Right. So you really have to make it legit and true to yourself. Yes, and that that's wow. Well, you're welcome for.
Speaker 2:I know seriously, shout out to CrossFit guys.
Speaker 1:All right, so so you get through that part of it and then what's the next step? And I assume you take copious notes and record all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I tell you, you take copious notes. You have to send them a thank you email, all that. Your resume also has to be polished before the hand, obviously, when you send it to them in the interim email and you had resources from your business.
Speaker 1:Fraternity who helped you? My?
Speaker 2:fellowship.
Speaker 1:College, all this stuff.
Speaker 2:And my mentors and I'd ask them to read them over. So that's what you do first semester of your sophomore year. So that fall you're just doing constantly coffee chats. You're going to the firm's info sessions when they're on your campus. Yes, that's basically it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Then you most okay. So the earliest applications my year dropped mid-December, which is crazy because usually Just a couple. But they started dropping mid-December very, very early. Most firms dropped January 1st, all the way to like January 15th.
Speaker 1:And these are for interviews for the internship for summer 2026.
Speaker 2:So a year and a half. You're basically recruiting a year and a half in advance of when you'd actually hit the desk.
Speaker 1:Okay. So everyone should know that if you go to college, you need to get your junior internship squared away.
Speaker 2:By your sophomore spring by your sophomore spring. The latest people sign, usually April, maybe into the summer. Okay, and this is mostly banking and buy side Asset management and investment management is usually a little bit later into your sophomore. The summer between sophomore and junior year and then consulting is like start of junior year.
Speaker 1:So they open up their thing and and you apply basically and then it all depends on the firm.
Speaker 2:Then, again, if you do like diversity programs you did a couple you get like an accelerated timeline most likely, so you get like a first round before other people. You can get a first round the day after you apply, like drop your resume, or you could get a first round like I got. I kept getting emails with first rounds like I think like a month, like a month after I applied that's the first round, first interview like which is what?
Speaker 2:those firms first rounds. So my software women's program was a technical first round interview which is all technical questions. But it really depends. Usually it's just like usually the first round is behavioral actually and it's more just like a fit type of interview.
Speaker 1:Is it like a video interview? Yeah, usually it's like on zoom, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you have to like if you pass that, most firms have a super day, then yes.
Speaker 2:Which is where some fly you out in person. Mine was in person for a couple and that's more like sometimes technical, sometimes behavioral, they'll do a mix. Sometimes that's very much like a once you get the super day, if you really lock in, like you can get the job because, like your foot's basically halfway in the door, you just need to like do well. But that's how it works. Most firms resume, drop and then either first round on zoom usually, and then a super day, or some people do or some firms do higher view to super day. A higher view is a virtual video interview, but it's just you talking to the camera oh, higher view.
Speaker 1:Yes, like a higher view video I've saw that yes, so this? So I saw this in an article in business insider where there was a goldman sachs partner, eric Jordan, who broke down this Super Day interview process for their firm. I mean, is it wrong to call them vampire squids, these guys? But that's really bad right. That's just like not nice.
Speaker 2:I'm a finance professional, I'm not that.
Speaker 1:I'm not, so I guess I can say anything I want. So he basically said so you know, they talk about super days, and that's the industry term for these interview events that take place at the end of the recruiting process for the 2026 internships, this year for the summer, and, like they said, you submit a formal application at work and then complete some sort of intro assessment, which you mentioned.
Speaker 2:And Goldman has a higher view.
Speaker 1:Yeah, higher view video Right. So this is so competitive and Goldman has is so competitive.
Speaker 2:I will say also, my perspective on it is a little bit more biased and limited. Like, I think, everyone that gets a banking job, if you really put in the work, that is not a privilege that is granted to, clearly, like 99% of you know, like the other applicants.
Speaker 1:So now, when? Now the advice that they get that this guy gives for his super days? I mean obviously just getting to the super day, as you just mentioned.
Speaker 2:Is a feat in itself and an accomplishment in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Right. So how many super days do most people get to attend?
Speaker 2:Some people, a lot of Duke alums that I spoke to when I was like, oh, buy this firm. They were like it's the only one that gave me an offer Very realistic. That happens to a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Well, you get just one opportunity to go to a super date.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got a couple of super dates Mine. I think I got six maybe.
Speaker 1:And you took all of them. No, oh, so how?
Speaker 2:many, some I got after I signed and I said no, oh, so once you chose. Mine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you, because you sign your offer letter.
Speaker 2:You know you don't want to renege. Like, finance is a super small world so you need to also be sure. And timing is also a difficult part, I think, of the recruiting process. I knew that the firm I was at I really wanted to work at and so that was like a no-brainer for me. I do think that for a lot of other people it's either, you see, one of two things Like some people will get an super early and they're hesitant because their other processes haven't finished wrapping up and they can't let go of those ones.
Speaker 2:But they're also afraid like, oh my gosh, if I don't take this now but like, get it, you know like they'll withdraw that opportunity you think, like I've seen people who will, like you know, they will reject a firm's offer to continue to recruit, hoping that the firm that they want, you know, will give them an offer later on, because not all. It's not like college where you get to collect all. I wish it was where you get to like, collect all your offers and submit one. You mean to pick one?
Speaker 1:They're rolling.
Speaker 2:Yes, and like most firms will give you four like. The most will be a week to decide. Most give like three to four days.
Speaker 1:Now there's a game that these firms are playing. So they, if they're a weaker firm, maybe they offer early or maybe not well, not weaker, but you know small.
Speaker 2:It's very much dependent on the firm, but I also think a lot of it is just how the firm operates as well. Maybe they just have a different HR system. There's many, many factors that go in, but every firm operates on its own timeline, so that is also something that can stress a lot of kids out, because you, you know like it is like recruiting is stressful, like to continue to do the process. Like when I signed, I was like this is the right choice.
Speaker 2:No, no, I like knew it was very choice. I was like so relieved, you know, like yeah, but some people don't get that feeling or some people get caught up in the what ifs. It's very like this is also when you need to stay true to yourself, I think, and that's what the coffee chats and all the research and work that you put in, that's when they come into play.
Speaker 1:How about Goldman Sachs? They're pretty late in terms of what they offer. Give offers right Compared to the others.
Speaker 2:No, they're kind of in the mix with everyone. I think they gave offers the last week-ish.
Speaker 1:Okay, but you committed. How long ago I committed?
Speaker 2:first week of February, second week of February, so like a couple weeks ago, Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Okay. So now he says in this article that people do use study guides containing potential interview questions for Super Day.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, If you're a kid, you memorize in the M&I 400 guide. It's 400 questions that you will ever need for an investment banking interview. You don't memorize all 400 because that includes the basic and advanced sections and it includes like sections you don't always need.
Speaker 1:But there are questions that you memorize out of this.
Speaker 2:I remember it's like six, like eight sections, like six basic and then two advanced. So how many questions is that? Gotta be like half, maybe 200 questions, maybe 150, 200. I made flashcards. I have the flashcards in my room. What is this? It's basically the technical guide that you need it. It comes up with like it has accounting, valuation, dcf, lvo, merger model and it's basically all the questions that. It's basically a baseline and a foundation. It's your holy grail if you're going into banking, because it studying that exposes you to the concepts themselves that you may get asked in an interview uh, give me one walk me through a.
Speaker 2:A DCF is literally one that everyone should know if you're going into banking.
Speaker 1:What's a?
Speaker 2:DCF, a discounted cash flow analysis. You basically like that's like something that bankers use all the time.
Speaker 1:And so give me the two sentence, start, but don't keep going, but just give me the first sentences.
Speaker 2:That you would say for something like that so, like a discounted cash flow analysis, a DCF is an intrinsic valuation method where you value a company based on the present value of its future.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, all right, I'm falling asleep already, sorry.
Speaker 2:That wasn't even the first step. That was me explaining what it all is?
Speaker 1:I don't care at all.
Speaker 2:This is like when he reads his research headlines to me from his residency days. This is so ridiculous.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm sorry, I'm just really not.
Speaker 2:Hashtag Jaws 2. Something, something.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, and then it says that some of the more specialized businesses, like derivatives or so forth, might be very technical, so they might ask more math, or Hedge funds are very technical too, oh is that right? So might they ask you math questions?
Speaker 2:Derivatives will maybe ask you math questions. If you're going into quantitative finance like quant, which is a whole different aspect, that's all math, basically quant. You're literally I'm, I'm, I think, basically quantum. What you're doing is like you're using math to predict the market so those are like. So they'll just like ask you math questions some of the quant kids I know are the smartest kids that I know at duke.
Speaker 1:But um more than two plus two is four, obviously but the hatch.
Speaker 2:It also depends on what the actual role is. Hedge funds, since they're so direct in investing and it's kids that really want to be in that direct investing seat, they'll ask you to pitch like 10 stocks in an interview, for instance. Oh, they'll. Yeah, they'll ask you to like give me a long short. Things like that, uh am might think more like how would you handle a situation with a client? There's very. There are behavioral questions, market-based questions and technical questions.
Speaker 1:So this is all sort of prerequisite, and even before you get here, obviously you need to have done well your first year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good grades. You have a good GPA above like a 3.75, 3.8.
Speaker 1:Right, and you've studied all this stuff.
Speaker 2:And extracurriculars. You need to build up your resume.
Speaker 1:All right. So they want to look at all that too. Yeah look at all that too. So this is all prerequisite before you even like get to this point. Like you, all of these things have to be in place before you even drop your resume. Okay. So, um, they suggest, if you got to this point, that what you really need is a hook. Yes, what is a hook? My hook is CrossFit. Is that really right, man? You've been milking this topic all it's worth.
Speaker 2:Guys, I've gotten so many questions. It's my first interest on my resume. They look at me and they're like you, but that's kind of like. The thing is that they want you like I think. He says an article you could talk about literally anything right as long as you're passionate about it, because, right, they don't care what you're talking about, as long as it depends.
Speaker 2:They just want to see what traits are coming through in the interview right when I talk about crossfit, a lot of traits that come through humility, my ability to push through things my resume, so it's a prism for you.
Speaker 2:Yes, my resume. You really want to dig deep into what skills you bring to the table. A lot of mine. My biggest strength, I would say, is my ability to be adaptive and connect with clients on a professional level. It's something that was unique because I sell ads at our newspaper at Duke and not many sophomores are in a sales position. A lot of people loved that too. Like, loved that activity on my resume, shout out to my boss, I love my boss, but like that job actually surprisingly reeled people in more than my corporate finance internship from this past summer. Things like that, where it's just like and I think honestly some people's hook is just being a super earnest and genuine person.
Speaker 2:During the interview I see it really much is just like you don't want to. They always say like we don't want. Like a finance robot, all bankers will tell you that you can learn the technical skills on the job, no matter what you do in college. Whether you go to an undergrad business school or not, you are not never going to be able to simulate what it's truly like to be on the job. But they can't teach soft skills right and so that's something that they like.
Speaker 2:You could get a technical question wrong in an interview and most likely still move on to the next round of everything else is great. If you had a behavioral question wrong, it, you know, digs deeper and more of like who are you like, could I sit next? Because it's the question is, could I sit next to you when we're in the trenches at 2 am right working together?
Speaker 1:That's what they said here, and so it seems like they prefer or gravitate towards student athletes. I guess to a certain degree, because they are good at sports. They were better than other people. It's a competitive situation.
Speaker 2:A lot of football and lacrosse male players go into banking. You do.
Speaker 1:They need dedication and a drive in sport, and so a lot of bankers feel like that translates into and time management, being a student athlete. Right, so is that something that you think is helpful, or at least a hook that a lot of these students have?
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously if you're a student athlete, especially at a school like Duke, you know top D1 school. You obviously put in an insane number of hours of hard work. You're very skilled, you know what it's like to be super, super good at something, top of your game and you know what it's like to stay there. I think that is like definitely a hook. I mean you could even talk about like I didn't crossfit, like people really enjoy that. They really enjoy hearing about my job at the chronicle, the newspaper, and I think that's because like that's tangible real world experience that I can talk about. They love hearing about how I sell ads to our local pliables owner because of what it shows.
Speaker 1:So when you got the offer, was that your first offer.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how many did you get before?
Speaker 2:that I got a couple. I can't remember exactly Two, maybe three.
Speaker 1:And you passed on three before you took this one.
Speaker 2:I passed on two or three yeah.
Speaker 1:And why'd you pass on them?
Speaker 2:Very different reasons. I think I was very grateful to the first. Saying no to the first one is always super, super hard because you have that fear of like.
Speaker 1:Will you get any others?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like what if I don't get any more? And then I look stupid, right? Ultimately, I think it really came down to like what was important to me. So I'm a generalist at my summer 2026.
Speaker 2:Being a generalist means that you are not industry specific. The way that a lot of these banks work are you have a healthcare group, you have a TMT, technology, media and like telecommunications industrials, like groups that you wouldn't really know actually, you also need to research this. If you want to go to banking, like what groups you want to do, right, industrials, like groups that you wouldn't really know actually, you also need to research this. If you want to go to banking, like what groups do you want to do Leverage finance? And it depends firm to firm. And so I think for me, like being a generalist means that I get to work across all industries and do M&A and restructuring activity across all these industries, and I didn't recruit for restructuring, which is where you work with companies like that are about to go bankrupt, because those technical questions are even harder. Like if you have the M&I for 100 as Calc AB, restructuring is like Calc, bc and Multi, like that's a whole, nother level of prep.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And so, but the chance to be able to do restructuring and explore and really have all my bases covered. That's truly why you go into banking. I think is because you want that optionality. Post your analyst years, even if it's hard, um, and that was something that really spoke to me. But I also think, like being a boutique actually, like you meet so many people through the interview process and once you get the offer, so many people will reach out to you from whatever firm, and I think that's also about, like the connection, like who do you think truly invested in you in the process?
Speaker 2:That's when the two-way street comes around, I think, um, and being a boutique, you are on like a smaller analyst class, um, and being a strategic advisory firm, you also end up, you know, like I think it's a different type of work because you solely win. Like you don't win because you have money on your balance sheet. Partially. You win because, like you win clients because of the like long relationships you've been building and because your like thoughtful advice is good I see, so that fit you personally yeah, and I honestly going into it.
Speaker 2:I actually thought I wanted a bulge bracket. I didn't well like goldman sachs, like the ones that have balance sheets the bigger, the bigger firm.
Speaker 1:So bulge bracket means like they're bulging with money I guess, okay, you have like bb and boutique.
Speaker 2:I actually said okay. Actually I went in thinking I was going to go into the buy side. I'm doing private credit this summer and I had recruited for my sophomore summer internship beforehand and I thought private credit was really interesting. I recruited for it but you know, some of the firms I wanted I didn't get, or I also didn't really know then, and that caused me to do some self-reflection, like, oh like, do I actually want to start in private credit? It's a pretty specific skill set and so I went in totally thinking that I wasn't going to enter my boutique or do banking. I thought I was going to do private credit or enter a pooled bracket.
Speaker 1:Did you know? So did having your sophomore internship in hand help you in terms of recruiting for your junior? I think it helped me.
Speaker 2:I got a lot of interviews like first rounds especially, and I think it helped me partially because the place that I'm working at this summer has a great name and has been in a major player in the private credit industry and had a major acquisition during my interview process. So I think, having that, they kind of knew like she must have gone through an intensive interview process for them.
Speaker 1:So you haven't even done your sophomore summer internship yet, and yet it did help a lot, I think. Awesome yeah it did help a lot. I think awesome yeah, and so I don't want to go back and like go through how it took to get your sophomore uh summer internship, but like I think, yeah, I think the fact that it was a big name because sophomore summer internships are also hard to come by like.
Speaker 2:So I know a lot of people that sign their sophomore summer internship after they sign their junior summer it is not necessarily a needed at all oh, like you do not need not need it because they understand how early the timelines are.
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 2:I just happened to sign and I do think that helped me get my foot in the door. It also helped me get my foot in the door at a lot of private credit firms because they knew I was.
Speaker 1:They knew you had an interest in it, and honestly.
Speaker 2:They knew that. I knew what it was. A lot of people recruit for, like I have no idea what they're doing, essentially what they're recruiting for, because you pass it to wide net. I didn't think it was helpful, which I do think was helpful, and I think that also forced me to get a head start on my technical question prep oh, because you had already prepped for your soft yeah, a lot of people start technical prep in like december and they focus on networking first.
Speaker 2:I kind of did both simultaneously because I was interviewing for my sophomore summer internship.
Speaker 1:But I know so many people that you know like don't like have a sophomore summer internship and it's totally fine did everyone who's in your friend group or who's interested in to do exactly what you did, or so are you one of the more try hard people that you know?
Speaker 2:no, I am definitely not a finance hardo.
Speaker 1:I have some friends that are so there are others who tried even harder than you about all this stuff and worked even harder than you on this yeah, some people will send out like 200 emails.
Speaker 2:Who knows Like some people will like well, like I'm not even in our investment club at Duke, I know people that are. They're doing stuff just for fun on the week, like you know what I mean, like things like that. So they're just like even more hardcore than you are about especially the kids, I think, that go into quant and like hedge funds because those are such few and like hedge funds are such few unlimited opportunities.
Speaker 1:Like far and few why do you know those kids want that? So these are people who just love doing this stuff yeah, they love like I'm.
Speaker 2:I asked one of my friends in my business right, who's going to hedge fund? I was like, do you wake up and think about like stocks? And he was like, yes. I was like, oh, so I'm not supposed to go to it. I think I need some foundations, which is also why a lot of people go into banking. They want to build that foundation. A lot of it is just learning how to be in an administrative professional setting.
Speaker 1:I see Okay. So what do you wish you had known before you started this whole process? That would have made things better for you.
Speaker 2:I wish I hadn't been so enormously stressed, Like I think that.
Speaker 1:It sounds stressful just listening to you.
Speaker 2:It is the most stressful thing I've done in my life Like I think it was super stressful and also especially to places like Duke. It's like an echo chamber. Everyone's trying to figure out oh did this sperm sit out round one who was around? One? Like who was a super date? Like who got an offer. Like who signed Like Like who got an offer. Like who signed Like. You know, it's kind of like college process, but like way more intense, because this is your future and your job.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And you have to do so much immense self-reflection that I wish I did a little bit more self-reflection before I kicked it off, thinking about what do I truly want?
Speaker 1:But who knows at that age?
Speaker 2:Exactly. But that's why I think, do as many calls as you can tedious or irritating or, oh my god, like it's a time suck. It is very helpful and I think, fine. All I've learned is that finance is such a small industry, it's, but like everyone knows everyone, everyone you know, I mean, and that's why I think, even though like 139 of the calls that I did are not at the firm that I'm going to you, you know, I mean, like I still built those connections and in the future, we never know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I still have an immense amount of respect for all the people that I called Like. Just because I'm not going to their firm or their firm didn't give me an offer, doesn't mean that I hold any spite or whatever, and I think that that's also something I think you do a lot of growing up during the process.
Speaker 1:And they might remember you in the future.
Speaker 2:Remember, like what you did we really liked your interview, things like that. Like I think that that, at the end of the day, you also need to think about like what is the actual work that I'm doing? I think I was scared of banking for a while because I was like, oh my god, it's something you know. Like freshman, he was like very, very scared. I knew nothing besides.
Speaker 2:Like it's a grind yeah but I think I ended up going into it because actually the work itself allows me to start so broad and like gain such a broad skill set, and I did a lot of self-reflection and realized I don't really know if there's an industry out there that I love like. Do I love industrials? Do I love like healthcare, like I have no idea. Whereas other kids sometimes go in knowing like, like you get a lot of pre-meds, low-key, who start pre-med at duke, they decide that they don't, they want to do more like the, like the uh, finance side of it yeah, the business, and so they want to go into like healthcare groups.
Speaker 2:Many people do that, or people that go into tech groups. I just didn't really know if I wanted to do one thing, because then you're only working with healthcare companies for your two years. So I think that also is something that you need to actually think about. Like it seems so far in the future, but it's really firm that you really, really want.
Speaker 1:That happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it happened with one firm on the buy side.
Speaker 2:For me that can be very difficult and I think I had also achieved a lot of success during my recruiting process and got if I'm being honest, I didn't get that many no's no-transcript realized that I think also that would be different if, for instance, like, I ended up with a like a you know, like a firm that I didn't think I was going to or whatever, but I, the firm that I'm going to for a summer my junior summer is a firm that I particularly chose for very like, you mean, for my specific reasons that I said before, and so I'm very happy that I had also also that option to choose. It can be difficult if you pick where you're going because it was the only place that gave you an offer. That's very different. I do feel very privileged and blessed to have gotten a chance to pick and really looked at my like options and I've had some like so many great friends out there, so many great options. But I think that that opportunity is something also that not everyone gets.
Speaker 1:So what do you do now that you have that all set up for yourself? Do you just like post?
Speaker 2:Party. No, I'm kidding Way to say. Like I think still like I'm doing my sophomore summer internship and I think what's great about going to the buy side for my sophomore summer doing private credit is that I get a glimpse into it. I actually have no idea what the work will be. You know, like I know, what the industry is, I know what work I should be doing, but I've never, you know, hit the desk before. So I think you know, just continuing to learn, like kind of preparing myself, but also, yes, it obviously is a lot easier once, like you kind of have a job lined up. But I think it's just things like that, like really taking my sophomore summer to reflect like, is this something that I would want to recruit for? Because you have to re-recruit after banking unless you want to stay in banking. A lot of people will do their two analyst years post-grad re-recruit, which is also really early.
Speaker 1:Re-recruit meaning so you do it to your analyst position, and then you have to look for another job again.
Speaker 2:Well, so actually recruiting timelines are so early now for post-grad, Usually it's when you graduate college. As you're so early now for post-grad, usually it's when you graduate college, that June and July, all the private equity firms, all the buy-side firms, start their on-cycle recruiting for two years. You mean after you've in advance, before you've hit the desk for your full-time job You've even worked.
Speaker 1:They're recruiting for people who that? Will join their firm in two years. Two years. How did they even know at that point? You haven't even worked a day in your life yet.
Speaker 2:That is the question on Wall Street. Currently, I think A lot of firms do off-cycle recruiting, which is six months into your first job, which is kind of similar to like you know a year and a half in advance, like you do for your junior summer. It really depends.
Speaker 1:It's very much like everything is moved early because these firms want to tap into talent earlier, and also it's like so you're gonna walk through that bad, so you're gonna have to go through a re-recruiting cycle at the end of your senior year if I decide to go to buy side, a lot of people stay as bankers.
Speaker 2:You become an associate, things like that.
Speaker 1:It very much depends wait, remind me, buy side are the people that do what again?
Speaker 2:they're like private equity, they're directing this thing. Yeah, okay, okay okay, like sell side. You're in the middle, you're the middle man between the money people. Shout out to the person that runs KFS because he did a like before I joined my fellowship. He did like a this is what banking actually does and he literally did like people that have money, people who need money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's Right. So that reminds me of a line from I don't know some novel I can't remember it was anyway. So well, I think that this is very enlightening to me. I think it also showed how much like where you're transitioning from a student into, like realizing what your life responsibilities are Like an adult, yeah. Yeah, like looking at this and sort of taking that perspective and realizing that work is not just like extended school, like there's all these consequences and responsibilities that you have to have.
Speaker 2:And I think recruiting is so intense to very much reflect on, like to weed out the people and we know, like those pre-med classes, that weed out the kids who can't handle it yeah. Very similar.
Speaker 1:There are kids I know who wanted to do banking and didn't want to recruit and then realized like, oh, if I don't want to do like these networking calls, how am I going to last in a banking job? Things like that, like it's so intense. But If you don't like this process, you're not going to make it Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think that's also part of why these firms are moving it early and earlier is again one they want to. You know, first, if they go to freshman year that's a little bit too intense. They think that this is fine, it's manageable, like I don't think they should go any earlier currently than where they're at right now, because then, like, what are freshmen going to know even less? However, I do think that's part of it is like that's why it's so early now. Is that like we want kids to like want to do this, like who wants to do it, you know, like who's out here putting in the work, taking initiative, because that itself is taking, I think, like taking on finance. Recruiting as a whole is very much like dependent on the personality, and I know people that also prioritize like lifestyle, for instance, over that, and a lot of people will go into consulting because they, right, you mean like not that you're not working hard hours and consulting, but you are.
Speaker 2:But you know, make very different types of work and balance, and I think that's when it really comes into self-reflection and thinking like what do I actually want to do? Is it because a lot of people also do get caught up in the name, or they get caught up in? Well, everyone else is doing it. I want to do it too, and that you know.
Speaker 1:That can also be a dangerous path to go down it seems so crazy that these decisions have to be made so early in somebody's life. And if you ever didn't know, like because there are so many people I know who it takes a while for them to figure out what it is that they want to do, and this whole process could completely bypass them. At that point, all and be all. But, like the, there are certain options that in life that if you don't, take advantage of them when they appear, you miss them.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to go back and try to do that and I think that that's also why a lot of bank, a lot of banks, have mba programs where, if you get your mba, you can pivot into and become like a summer associate and then you eventually join. I know I met a lot of people that did that as well.
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 2:I think that, yes, there is that. But at the same time, like the world is just so pre-professional now. Even as a pre-med, you're like, even though you might not be applying to med school as a sophomore, you are committing yourself to it, you're taking hard classes, you're volunteering at the hospital, you're catering your resume to med school. Even if the application is later, you're still doing the same thing and kind of locked in Same with law. Everything is so pre-professional now that I think it's not just finance. The world is asking kids to think about what they want to do earlier and earlier.
Speaker 1:It is true. I remember when I applied to medical school you could actually not have your whole life geared around looking like you wanted to be the best doctor in the world and still get into medical school.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now.
Speaker 2:You need to have a perfect GPA too, unlike you, but you need to have, like, a great GPA.
Speaker 1:Right, like everything had to be in place.
Speaker 2:You had a bad GPA and two extracurriculars. Okay, thanks, rip.
Speaker 1:So it was a different era. Uh, I had a lot of soft skills. Let me put it that way.
Speaker 2:No, I'm just he aced his interview guy that's the thing is like I think I I spoke to a lot of senior people also and I think, yes, you speak like most of your networking calls are first year analysts and second year analysts, because those are the people involved with the recruiting, because also a lot of banks have like do specific recruiting teams where you really should only talk to alum because those are the only people that are pulling Duke resumes out. But I will very much say I valued my conversations the most with people four plus years into their career and I think that's because they have a different perspective of course they do everyone forgets, recruiting makes you so narrow minded and you forget that your first job is not your last job.
Speaker 2:Of course, I think, speaking to people that are many years into their career, like Vito, for instance, where they change reminded and you forget that your first job is not your last job. Of course, I think, speaking to people that are many years into their career, like Vito, for instance, where they change, you know, they change paths, they change firms, they like life happens to them and they make a change, and I think that those are those were really nice reminders and reassuring moments that remind you that at the end of the day, it's like a job and if you don't like it, you can leave. At the end of the day, it's like a job and if you don't like it, you can leave, you can change, you can pivot. It does seem like, oh, it's too, too late, but truly nothing is ever too late if you have the grind and the dedication.
Speaker 1:I think if this is something like, it's like with med school, I remember there was a guy who wanted to do cardiothoracic surgery and he, even as an undergrad, all he did was like hang out with them, did research with them, did nothing with them. And now, of course, he is a-.
Speaker 2:Is he a cardiothoracic surgeon?
Speaker 1:Very well-known cardiothoracic surgeon, I would say it almost seems that that is the norm rather than the exception. To be successful at this point, you have to know from the womb that this is what you want to do, and if you do that and everything sort of points you towards that, that's great, and so I would say my advice would be if you have a strong interest in something, lean into it, whether it's IB or medicine. But if you don't, these paths are not available to you and you're going to have to figure out different paths, which is sort of a shame, but maybe it's also good in terms of freedom. I don't know.
Speaker 2:You're locked in at this point, dubs Well to me it of a shame, but maybe it's also good in terms of freedom. I don't know Like you're locked in at this point, so Dubbed.
Speaker 1:Well, to me it's a dub, but some other people might not be a dub, and that's where the self-reflection comes into play. That's right. So I think self-reflection you've mentioned that multiple times is probably key, and I think that that's hard for anyone to do, but I think, even at my age, I do a lot of self-reflection like what the F?
Speaker 2:am I going to do next? Careers are now linear, and that's something that I think people might forget when we're recruiting so early. But then you speak to people who look back on their career like you. They're not straight line.
Speaker 1:Thank God that you did CrossFit Like I made you do CrossFit.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, I know, I don't know where I would be without it. I wrote my college essay about it. That's my part of my tell me about yourself. I bonded with a guy. I got into the KFS fellowship. I'm convinced because I met a guy at their career day who also CrossFits. He's now one of my very close mentors, who's awesome.
Speaker 1:CrossFit is life and I would say it's a cult and the fact that you're still CrossFitting at your campus and part of a gym out there.
Speaker 2:I think I'm doing my fourth or fifth open next year.
Speaker 1:This year, this year.
Speaker 2:Maybe third or fourth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you know all you can do as a parent is just help your kids lean into what interests you. Hopefully it interests them. Maybe it won't work out so well, as like having a hook for your IB interviews, but you never know. You just have to, you know, sort of roll with it and see what happens.
Speaker 2:That transaction transformed me, and I watched them as they tried to figure out how to increase membership.
Speaker 1:Oh my, Lord All right. So thank you so much, Sasha.
Speaker 2:Thank you I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Good luck with the rest of your school year in being a sophomore, and until next time in our next topic Go Duke. All right.