
Botox and Burpees
Botox and Burpees
S05E104 - Tiger Parents or Smart College Admissions Strategists?: How We Got Two Kids Into Duke with Special Guest Susan Rhee
College admissions - the high-stakes game that dominates the lives of high school students and their families. In this episode, my guest is my spouse Susan Rhee @susanrhee as we unpack how our two children successfully navigated their way to Duke University, despite both facing deferrals in the early decision round.
Susan shares the rollercoaster of emotions we experienced as parents - from the crushing disappointment of initial deferrals to the eventual triumph of acceptance. Together, we candidly discuss the strategies that worked for our family: did it help when our kids did test prep early after freshman year? How important was developing consistent personal narratives through extracurriculars? We also discuss the importance of attending a school that provided individualized attention and leadership opportunities.
We also take a behind-the-scenes look at actual Duke applications. Through FERPA, our daughter obtained her college application review, revealing how admissions officers numerically score different aspects of applications and what factors truly matter in the selection process. This insider perspective demystifies how elite universities streamline the evaluation process of the thousands of qualified applicants they receive annually.
Beyond tactics, we explore the psychological dimensions of college admissions - how to support your child when they don't get into their dream school, why resilience matters more than acceptance letters, and the importance of having backup schools students genuinely love. The conversation serves as both practical guide and emotional support for families navigating this challenging journey.
Whether you're a parent of a high school student or someone fascinated by the complex world of elite college admissions, this episode offers honest insights about what works, what doesn't, and why the college your child attends is ultimately just the first paragraph of the foreword of their life story. Have you been through the college admissions process? We'd love to hear your experiences and strategies!
#CollegeAdmissions #DukeUniversity #CollegeBound #Parenting #EducationJourney #CollegeTips #HigherEducation #CollegePrep #ParentingTeens #CollegeApplication #BotoxAndBurpees #podcast
Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees. I have with me a particularly special guest my wife, spouse, significant other I don't know what the right way to call it these days is, but it is Susan Reed. And today our topic is going to be well, the topic's a little misleading. It says how we got our two kids into Duke University, but that's not really our focus. I mean, yes, our two kids, two kids into Duke University, but that's not really our focus. I mean, yes, our two kids did get into Duke University. Sasha is now a sophomore and Nick just got admitted a couple weeks ago. It's really just about talking about the process, observations, things that we noticed as parents. We probably will forget most of these things in a couple weeks or months, but there's a lot that's fresh that I think a lot of people might find interesting or helpful in their journey, because it is quite a journey. So thank you, susan, for guesting today.
Susan Rhee:Thanks for having me.
Sam Rhee:And just tell me a little bit about yourself. I mean, not that I need to know, but just so that everyone out there can get to know you. I don't think you've ever been guested on any podcast that I've ever been on, so this is your first time. So thank you again for agreeing to do this.
Susan Rhee:You're very welcome. Hope was not the last time. I am 53 years old, a mother of two. I had worked full time as an attorney in the asset management space for the last 30 years. I travel quite a bit for work but you know I find it rewarding and so I've done that with both kids sort of going through the process which is very, very time consuming. But I'm thankful to have my career that I love, now that we will soon be empty nesters.
Sam Rhee:Yes, very soon in the fall. So the first thing I wanted to sort of outline is that our experience with our kids is not what anyone else's experiences might be. It might be really different and I think, attending last night's honors dinner for Nick, it just really struck me how amazingly different all those kids are, how accomplished his classmates were, how many incredible places they themselves are going to, but that their stories are all different and their college application process is all different. And, let's face it, I could tell if you're a superstar, you're going to be a superstar. Like there's not a whole lot of advice we need to give people who are really superstars.
Sam Rhee:I would say our story are two Asian kids growing up in North Jersey applying to you, know schools, and, but you might have kids, or you, or you yourself are a kid who has a completely different background, different story, different bent, different perspective, and so this is just one particular observation. So they ended up both applying EED early decision, which is a binding application to Duke. Why do you think they did? Why do you think they did that?
Susan Rhee:Well, unfortunately, I think, in the current environment that they're in, I think most students feel as though they have to apply early somewhere to increase their chances of getting in, because it is a binding commitment. So the next step is what school and which school will that be For Sasha? She's known since the third grade that she wanted to go to Duke, so it really was not even a question as to where she was going to apply early.
Sam Rhee:Why do you think you wanted to go to Duke since third grade?
Susan Rhee:I mean, we've dragged them to basketball games since they were in third grade and there's, you know, onesies of them in Duke when they're like six months old. So you obviously went there and it took me about a decade into our marriage before I sort of drank the Blue Devil Kool-Aid and being hated by every other basketball fan in the country. Where did you go to college? I went to Boston College and unfortunately I've been to basketball games where I have rooted for Duke in solidarity with you and the kids. But you expose your kids to a lot of things and whether or not it will take and become their own true passion, it's a hit or miss. But both of our kids love college sports, they love to do basketball and so for her, for Sasha, it was a really best place for her to work hard and play hard because that is for sort of her personality.
Susan Rhee:When it came to Nick, I think you and I were very careful to tell him that there was no obligation or responsibility or expectation that he would be applying early to Duke. We really wanted him to look at the full range of schools, all different sizes, geographic locations, to really find where he thought he could see himself. And you know he thought about it all summer and I don't think you and I knew exactly where he was applying early, until in September, very true. And then he finally told us and I have to say I sighed when he told me, but he said that you know he wanted to apply to Duke. Why do you sigh?
Susan Rhee:Because it's a very difficult school to get into, I think more difficult than some other schools that are. You know, in certain categories, you know from the general public, because you know we've seen history at their high school where there's only one student that goes to Duke. Yeah, I'll talk about that, right, and so that's why. And then I saw Sasha's process and they're two very different kids, but you know, listen, we're here to support our kids in whatever decision that they make. And they're two very different kids, but you know, listen, we're here to support our kids in whatever decision that they make. And so, after a lot of visiting to a ton of schools, he chose to apply early to Duke as well.
Sam Rhee:And we're speculating, but why do you think he ended up deciding to apply early decision to?
Susan Rhee:Duke. I've asked him that just to make sure that he was certain, and he said some of it is familiarity. He's been on that campus a lot of times. He spent a summer there taking a class. I think the fact that his sister's there also you know they're close, so that had something to do with it as well and I think at the end of the day, he loves Duke basketball, Like he's told me when we visited other schools where I had competitive basketball teams.
Susan Rhee:I'm not sure if I can root for this team, even though it'll be, my school and so I think for him it just checked all the boxes for him personally as well.
Sam Rhee:As parents, did you worry about them not getting into the first choice? I mean, they were both applying early decision and both of them there's no guarantee whatsoever that they're getting into their first choice.
Susan Rhee:Well, I have to say, all these bags under my eyes are from the cumulative effect of trying to you know of both their college processes. But you know, I will say they're very different students. Say they're very different students and because Sasha was our first and we didn't really know that much about the process, and based on her sort of body of work through the last four years, I think I thought how could they not take this kid? And so I think we both thought like there's nothing more she could have physically done, you know, in her four years, as you know, a student and so, and I think she kind of felt that way as well, and so when she got deferred it was a really heartbreaking sort of day for her.
Sam Rhee:Right. So what happens? Is you apply in? When is the deadline? The?
Susan Rhee:deadline is November 1st for most early decisions and you find out about the week before Christmas.
Sam Rhee:And so if you get in, you're committed, yes, and you don't have to apply to any other school.
Susan Rhee:Nope, you're done.
Sam Rhee:But if you don't get in, you could either be denied, where they reject you, or deferred, where you go through the regular admissions process. And so I remember this very vividly. I know you did. We both sat there and I don't know how these TikTok videos happen, where people do the reveals because it's so nerve wracking, and I I was. I remember, as a parent, being so disappointed in the fact that she opened it. And you know you're now on your laptop, you click on it, you open the portal message and it says deferred and she's crying. It's a terrible moment as a parent to feel for your daughter and you know the fact that she did not get what she wanted. How did you feel about it?
Susan Rhee:I mean I was surprised. And then you know, as you start seeing stats come out on how many, what percentage they actually took out of the early decision pool, then I vacillated between being thankful that she wasn't outright rejected and that she still at least had a fight. I mean that basketball season was the most peaceful for me because we did not watch one Duke basketball game.
Sam Rhee:Oh, I put all my Duke stuff away.
Susan Rhee:I think her Duke ornament went into the fireplace Like. So you know it was just one of those moments where you know the whole process is just a range of emotions, you know, from being happy to being confused, to being sad, to being outright angry. And so you know it was a tough winter break for her and the family, and you know I think she just couldn't get it out of her mind.
Sam Rhee:And you know we just you can only just encourage that the process has just started. And you know standing there in the kitchen with his laptop and you know opening the letter on the portal and then slamming the laptop shut and being so upset that he got deferred, so I couldn't believe that it was like deja vu all over again. And so how did you feel about the second time around?
Susan Rhee:like deja vu all over again, and so how did you feel about the second time around?
Sam Rhee:I mean I think for Nick. I was sort of thinking that he was going to get deferred.
Susan Rhee:Wow, because I feel as though you know some of this is strategy, right, and whether I'm right or wrong, you always like make fun of me because I have all these conspiracy theories on why certain schools do this and that. But I did feel as though, from if I'm a Duke admission person, I'm thinking this kid is pretty much a lock-in to come if we let him in in the art regular decision. Pool His sister's there. You went there, and so I did not think he was going to get outright rejected. So I figured he was going to get deferred, because they know that the yield on him is a pretty high percentage that if he comes in regular decision he will probably attend.
Sam Rhee:So you didn't think he was a strong enough candidate for them to just be like we want you, we're going to take you.
Susan Rhee:No, because Sasha wasn't, and so you know watching her process. I think it recalibrated everything for us, or for me at least, on sort of how arbitrary the process sort of is. And remember, with every school during early decision it's not only just the students, every collegiate athlete is being admitted during that process. So that's already two, three hundred spots out of seven hundred.
Susan Rhee:So the Boozer Twins coming in for next year were admitted all the other and that's just basketball due because of a zillion sports, so it's all those athletes that are coming in during that round. Yeah.
Sam Rhee:I think if you have a kid who's good at sports, it's such a huge short not shortcut but short circuit of the process. We just saw the kid who's six Is he 6'11".
Susan Rhee:Yeah.
Sam Rhee:And he's going to MIT for basketball. Yeah, and he's going to MIT for basketball.
Susan Rhee:Yeah.
Sam Rhee:And the kid is ginormous, but he's probably sharper than like 99.9% of any basketball player you've ever seen out there and it just made me happy to see this kid use his athletic skills to be able to go to an institution where he's not going to go on to professional basketball most likely if you're playing for MIT but the fact that he's going to have an amazing career probably afterwards because he's getting into an institution, that's amazing. Yeah, and I think I learned a lot when Sasha was it your idea or her idea to get her application?
Susan Rhee:Oh, I told her.
Sam Rhee:Okay idea to get her application. Oh, I told her Okay and we'll talk about it, but basically she was able to get a copy of her actual Duke application and their review and ratings and we'll go through that a little bit just so that people understand what points they're looking at and what they're actually writing down in these applications, which was a little mind-blowing to me, actually. Okay, so were there any other schools during this early process that they felt like they also really loved, that they would also be okay at going to?
Susan Rhee:Yeah, they were both really similar in that they both loved USC and UCLA. I mean, what's not to love? It's California, it's sunny, there's palm trees everywhere, and those two schools don't have an early decision. They have an early action process, which means it's not binding, but it's the same November 1 application deadline. But the kicker to that is you find out whether you're in or not, or deferred, in January, which is two months earlier than the regular decision pool. And so those were two schools that, for both of them, was very high on their list as well.
Sam Rhee:I know a lot of kids, especially at the school they go to, which is Dwight Englewood, which is a private school that so many kids apply to all the Ivies, and the Ivies have a slightly different admissions process. They're early, they don't have and this is something I never quite understood is I know about ED. You apply, it's binding, you get in done. It's a little unfair in the sense that colleges hold you to that decision. You don't get a chance to sort of look at any other acceptances and see whether or not there's someplace better that you might think is more desirable. You know it's a one and done shot. The upside is is your admissions rate is higher. Right, it's usually what like. At Duke, it was what versus the this year, with three and a half for the regular pool. But Harvard, princeton, all these other places they do. Can you explain this one to me, because you know this one?
Susan Rhee:Yeah, so there are some IVs like Cornell and Columbia that have early decisions, so same thing binding. There are some IVs like I think it's Yale, princeton for sure where they have this thing called restrictive early action where you have to apply early and you'll find out early but you are not allowed to apply to any other early action schools except for state schools. So that's sort of the trade-off and so for instance, if Nick was applying to Princeton he would not have been able to apply to USC Early Action because that is a private institution. He could to Michigan because that's a state institution, rutgers, so any state college. So they have a restrictive or REA process.
Sam Rhee:What's EA1, EA2 then?
Susan Rhee:So EA1 is what our kids did early decision you apply by November 1,. You find out before Christmas. Pa1 is what our kids did. Early decision you apply by November 1. You find out before Christmas For some kids, if you don't get into your number one ED school, you can apply early decision 2, which deadline is January 1, and you'll find out by the end of February. So it's just the same process just from January to March. And so there are a couple of schools that have ED2, like Tufts has ED2. Washu has ED2. I think Emory has ED2. So that gives sort of kids two bites of the apple, right to kind of be done with this process if they have two schools that they really liked.
Sam Rhee:Now, how do these students rank these schools? Because there's so much chatter with these kids about what school is good or what school is not good, and so how do you think this plays into the stress of college admissions for these kids?
Susan Rhee:I mean I think there's no one more stressed in this process. I mean you might think we're really stressed. No one is more stressed than the actual kid. Oh absolutely, and I think a lot of whether they think something is good or not, frankly speaking, is sort of their academic place or ranking or pecking order at their school. So these kids know they're at the top of the class, middle below, whatever, and so a lot of it, I think, is sort of the social pressure of sort of meeting other people's expectations.
Sam Rhee:Isn't that crazy? Which is?
Susan Rhee:crazy Because at the end of the day, you know, I think what we kept on telling our kids and whether they believed it or not was it really did not matter where you went.
Susan Rhee:It's really the fact that it was a good fit for you and that you do your best and strive at the school that you're ultimately being in.
Susan Rhee:I don't think they listened to a lick of that when we said that, because they're not ready to process it that way. They kind of just look at the schools and the problem with this is that the top 20 schools every single kid at that school is applying to. They're not taking 50 kids to USC, so at some point it becomes a numbers game that's just working against a majority of the students, and so I think it's the pressures of all of that and I think that you know it's a lot for these kids to navigate not only those emotions, doing all these applications, writing all this and don't forget there's still full time students that need to do really well for a semester of their senior year was colored because my parents were the typical Asian parents that were like Habada, harvard, you know Yela, you know Princeton, and you know that's what they knew, because they had no idea they had just come from Korea, maybe a year before I was born, two years before I was born, and so they knew nothing.
Sam Rhee:And the fact that I ended up choosing well, first of all, I didn't get into any of the Ivies, so I was a failed, you know Ivy League wannabe.
Susan Rhee:You went into Cornell.
Sam Rhee:Okay, yes, you're right, I did All right One. And so all of their friends' kids got into Harvard and Yale and Princeton and Columbia and all these places and I ended up choosing Duke and that was very confusing to them back in 1987. Like it was one of those what is this place? And then I remember and this is a family joke, but when my brother, who also went to Duke he's two years younger than me was applying for engineering schools and he wanted to go to Harvey Mudd, which is a great private engineering school out in California, part of the Claremont system, and I remember my mother just going Harvey Mudd, harvey Mudd, and just yelling at him over it like no, I'm not spending money for you to go to Habibud. And so I think that colored my perspective in terms of what I thought an ideal college was.
Sam Rhee:I did not think that you had to go to an Ivy. Duke wasn't as nearly as selective as it is now, and so it worried me a little bit that they ended up wanting to go there. Obviously I influenced them in some part at least by exposing them to all of the Duke, basketball and everything but but I just really worry that they would think that and I always said this, I said this in a previous podcast this is not like it doesn't define anything in your life. It's not your first chapter, it's not even the first page of the first chapter. It's like the first paragraph of the foreword of the prologue of your book. Your success is not even nearly dependent on what undergraduate institution you go to, nor is your happiness, nor is your overall experience dependent on the status of that school.
Sam Rhee:But these kids keep feeding into that over and over and over again, and I think, honestly, the parents, like it or not, also do that in huge part, and it's really really, really, really, really hard, because this could have fallen a completely different way for our kids. It could have gone any other way than this. Like, this was lottery luck on a lot of levels, and did we play the odds? Did we try to shape it the best way we could as parents? Absolutely, and there are some things that I think we did do which maybe influenced things a little bit, but it's a crapshoot. Like I said, it's not a meritocracy in any means, by any means. And so you know, how many kids did you see at our school that had some kind of in, whether they're athletics, like the kid from going to MIT or you know, family or other connections I mean that really sort of showed all of us that it's not necessarily the brightest or the smartest kids that go into whatever school that they want to go to.
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think when you look at the kids, at least from their school I wouldn't say a majority of them, but I would say 30% have applied to an institution that one of their parents or both their parents have gone to, and I have seen it both ways. I have seen kids a majority of them get in. I have seen some kids not get in. You know, for Nick's year, I think, from what I sort of know. I don't know how many people applied, but I think four or five of them ended up getting deferred and I think four out of the five had at least one parent that had attended Duke. They ultimately did not end up getting in.
Susan Rhee:But I think that everyone's sort of strategy or sort of game plan the child likes the school is to try to leverage at least something like that just to differentiate them a little bit. Because, truth be told, at these schools they're all looking at kids that are the brightest in their class. Have, you know, led a bazillion clubs? They're all, frankly, the same in all respects. So there's no sort of differentiating factor anymore, because I think these kids have just been sort of been groomed or have been working on their story since freshman year, and so I do think you know that where your parents went to school, and if you decide to apply there, I think it does give them a little bit of a boost, considering all things being equal.
Sam Rhee:But without that you know that alone is not going to get you in anywhere, of course, and I think you have to remember that colleges are looking to fit people into their niches. So if they need a tuba player that year, they're going to look for a tuba player and, like you said, there are so many candidates that are of equal qualifications. It's much easier to pick the tuba player than it is, say, someone who isn't, and so we can talk a little bit about shaping stories and how that can work to some kids' advantages. I think we chose to send them to a private school instead of sending them to Ridgewood High School. Do you think that made a difference?
Susan Rhee:A hundred percent. I mean, I think that I think Sasha sort of bamboozled you and sort of wore you down, because with her, you know, she really felt as though she could really shine. At a smaller institution, she could get involved in a lot more things. So, you know, 125 kids versus 500, it's a big difference. Do I think she would have done really well at Ridgewood High School? Yes, do I think her outcome would have been the same? I don't know, but at the end of the day she was very happy there for four years and she thrived. I mean, she really did and took advantage of every opportunity, and if there was something she wanted to do that wasn't there, she was able to sort of be able to make it happen.
Sam Rhee:Nick.
Susan Rhee:Nick, also, I think we just assumed, you know, we just have both kids at the same place.
Sam Rhee:How about his performance? Do you think he would have done as well at Ridgewood as versus Dwight?
Susan Rhee:I don't think so. Why does? Very well the way he operates. But his personality is very different and I think a smaller class size setting was really helpful in sort of drawing his talents and his interests out. He was able to get involved in a ton of extracurricular activities. He led and created clubs, and so I think that smaller environment for him made a big difference.
Sam Rhee:How about BCA, bergen County Academies? That is the jewel of Bergen County, sasha applied, it is free for all. You can go there and their college admissions record is absolutely stellar.
Susan Rhee:You know this is kind of like with colleges right, you have to find the right fit. And yes, sasha thought that that was her dream high school, going into eighth grade. So she took the test. She ended up getting in, but somewhere before her decision came out, she said this is not the place for me. And when we pressed her on it, she just said like I don't want to be studying 24-7 to maybe be middle of the class because this is the brightest of Bergen County, all in one school. And so I think she feared that she would not have a complete sort of high school experience, because it's not all about just studying and everything and all that.
Sam Rhee:And so she my parents feel differently, but go ahead and everything and all that.
Susan Rhee:And so she my parents feel differently, but go ahead. Yes, but we're not your parents. And I have to say, when I went with her to the interview, the parents were in the gym waiting for their kids to come out, and even just the parents in there were stressing me out. It was just a very different sort of mindset and so ultimately, I was happy she came to that conclusion on her own.
Sam Rhee:Wasn't one wearing?
Susan Rhee:a tux I don't know if it was a tux, but it was a full blown suit. And then the guy sitting next to her because she was going for computer science at the time brought like a whole box of his trophies and awards, and she's just looking at him and she just like, this is not the place for me. So thank God, though, she realized that pretty early on, at that young age, to be able to pivot.
Sam Rhee:Yeah, but if you're a superstar, that should be the place to go right.
Susan Rhee:Yes, I think, depending on what you want, though, as your high school experience, we know people who went to BCA who are friends with Sasha. Yes.
Sam Rhee:They are not nerds, they didn't study all the time. They are complete individuals who are superstars.
Susan Rhee:That's true.
Sam Rhee:So I would say, if you are a superstar, you should probably go to that school, because you can pick almost any school you want coming out of that school. If you do well, yes, okay, so they're not all nerds who just carry boxes of trophies all over the place.
Susan Rhee:Okay.
Sam Rhee:The. They're not all nerds who just carry boxes of trophies all over the place. Okay, the two that we know are not. That's good enough for me. All right, so let's talk. Let me throw back a little bit school. You know kindergarten like the activities they were exposed to, the developmental sort of things that we wanted them to be exposed to. Do you think any of that made a difference in terms of how they were either prepared for or getting you know to do well in terms of the performance afterwards in high school?
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think, looking back, I really believe you can't sort of force a kid to want to do well. Some of that has to be sort of innate. Yes, you can like browbeat them and force that, but that is very long like short lived on how long you could do that. What are you going to do that for the next 18 years, 20 years? What are you going to do with that?
Sam Rhee:Did you force them to do some things as kids?
Susan Rhee:Yes, the one thing I did with Sasha is I did not want her to be one of those girls in a STEM class that felt small with the boys, and so for me it was really important that she have and be very confident, and so when she was in pre-K, I enrolled her in Kumon, where they do like early math and reading and, you know, you kind of progress at your own pace. So if you finish a level, you take the test and you pass, you go to the next level, and they made it fun for the kids because every time you pass a level you got a different colored bag.
Sam Rhee:You could buy things from the store yeah, funds relative, but yes, they did have prizes yeah, so there are prizes.
Susan Rhee:So at the time they didn't think it was anything that arduous. Now, mind you, when they started advancing and they got to like fifth grade, I mean it was math that I couldn't even do anymore and so you took the brunt of sort of doing their homework with them. But you know it's hard to get kids to consistently want to do that, but we literally just made them stick with it. I mean, I think sometimes with Nick you were spending there like 45 minutes with him with the yellow post-its, trying to explain a concept to him and whatever.
Sam Rhee:I would say they would argue that I didn't help them very much. But I would say I do know, I do remember a lot of kids that were their peers started Kumon and sort of gave up on it pretty quick. And for whatever reason we made them do it, I would say it helped them for two reasons, and this is one of the things I go back to is kids do well with success. If they struggle, it's easy for them to quit. If they're good at a sport, they keep getting better at that sport. If they're good at a subject, they keep getting better at that subject. And unfortunately, but the reality is, math is not necessarily about smartness, it's about knowledge and repetition. So the fact that they had exposure to a lot of the math concepts before they actually took them in school made it easier for them, made them, built them some confidence and they never had problems with reading. So reading always seemed to be fine for them. So we just kind of, you know, stopped the reading part of it. The other thing that I and so I think building that success of you know, that pattern of knowing what success is like. I know what it feels like to go into a class and do well. Once you reinforce that, they sort of want that. Once they kind of struggle and flail like they don't really, they shy away from it, and you can see that in sports, too, all the time.
Sam Rhee:So I would say the fact that it wasn't so much what the subject was, but just that feeling of success for a kid, setting that up for them, was super helpful and also it helped them know that they have resources so they actually would go back to their Kumon tutors and even what middle school or early high school I can't remember to ask for help for problems. And I think that is one of the things that our kids learned from all of this extra crap that we made them do is that they could seek help. They can find others to help them. Now, again, you need either the support around you for people like I couldn't help them after fourth grade really, but we had the resources to get them to the tutors to help them with these problems. And I remember many times Nick or Sasha even now with Nick, like before tests, not you know, they didn't feel really up to date on the concepts or really strong on it would go have a session or two with somebody up to date on the concepts or really strong on it, would go have a session or two with somebody and that is the kind of pattern or habits that you have to ingrain in your kids.
Sam Rhee:That listen, they're not necessarily smarter than anyone else, but if you have access to resources and you can get to it and you know what success feels like, how to set yourself up for it. We all know what it's like to take a test and you're not prepared. And you know you're not prepared. You know that's a terrible feeling. Like that's still some of my worst nightmares that come back is like feeling unprepared for a test. So I would say the early part of development in terms of if you're setting your kids up for success later is to reinforce that feeling of success. The other thing is we did enroll them in a ton of sports, like so many different sports so many.
Sam Rhee:And I feel like that helped a lot in terms of just physical development. Physical development also goes hand-in-hand with mental development and maybe they didn't do everything. You know, or you know, nick did basketball for a while Now he's in track. Sasha did soccer Now it doesn't really like soccer, but did lacrosse for a while, which he enjoyed. Like, just keeping them in activities, especially team based activities. I think they're awesome sports, but I do feel like team building, social interaction, working well with others.
Sam Rhee:I never really had that and I just love the fact that those two had it and I think that that sort of helped them in terms of their high school activities, clubs, leadership in the future.
Sam Rhee:So I don't think you have to be super crazy about it, but yeah, I think you should definitely push it and listen if you're really good at something like we. There were kids at Ridgewood who went to Stanford on lacrosse or Duke for baseball, you know, and so there are a few kids out there that can you know. Or even kids at Dwight who maybe weren't like D1 athletes but got into some awesome D3 schools like really top notch, you know, playing sports. So there's a lot of different paths that you can use. Keep trying your kids at different things and you might find that in that works for them, that they love, they want to pursue and can help them get the best education possible. So let's talk about how they did in terms of their grades and test scores in high school. How do you think they did in terms of their grades, both Sasha and Nick?
Susan Rhee:I mean Sasha probably couldn't have done any better. Nick ended up, you know, they changed it a little bit his year, whereas when Sasha was going they actually gave A pluses and made those the value of that like a 4.3. Whereas in Nick's senior year they got away with the whole A pluses stuff. But you know, but Nick was close to what Sasha did. How about standardized?
Sam Rhee:testing.
Susan Rhee:They both took it very early.
Sam Rhee:The SAT.
Susan Rhee:Yeah, they both took the SAT. It was before the revised format. I think they took it after each of their freshman years.
Sam Rhee:Did they prep? Did they do SAT prep?
Susan Rhee:Yes, they went to an SAT prep like for two or three months before they took the August one of that summer, after freshman year. So they took it early. Yes, they took it early because they had already finished the math that was required and the only thing I said to them was because they were obviously annoyed with me by telling me, asking me. You know, I was asking them to do this, but what I told them was I said listen, once you get to be a sophomore, going to junior or junior year, your course load is so heavy you do not want to be dealing with studying for this standardized test on top of that. So after freshman year freshman year is like not crazy, you know, it's some modicum of difficulty, but it wasn't crushing the workload. And so they reluctantly did it and they took it twice. So Sasha took it the first time. So she did not as well as she wanted the first time. So she took it a second time and that score was fine.
Susan Rhee:Nick actually the first time got the score that he wanted, but of course you know he's competitive. So he said, oh, let me just try it again, which he didn't do better. So he was like, okay, that's fine. So he said, oh, let me just try it again, which he didn't do better. So he was like, okay, that's fine. So they were done pretty early.
Sam Rhee:So do you feel like you need to do the test prep? And I think the other thing is is that test prep doesn't last that long, like the effect of it does not extend, so it's not like you could test prep, wait six months and then feel like you got that boost from test prep, like it's this is, and then feel like you got that boost from test prep. This is where the system is not fair. If you really test prep hard and then you take the exam, you're in that testing mode, question mode, answer mode, and I don't know if you've taken a lot of exams I've taken a lot of exams in my life and there is sort of a mindset that you need in order to process, evaluate, answer for these kind of tests and get into that mindset of what these test composers are doing. And so it really is like a crest think you necessarily need to do it your freshman year, but you need to do it at a time where you have a big gap of time where you can really intensively test prep and then go into the test with the maximum amount of confidence.
Sam Rhee:I think Nick retook it, but he didn't test prep again and so it had kind of faded a little bit and so you kind of lose that. So it's unfortunate. I don't know how much emphasis colleges are now paying to test scores. I know there are test optional. A lot of places still are. What's your thought about testing and its role in terms of being evaluated for college admissions?
Susan Rhee:no-transcript sort of initial bar, which it used to be, that if you didn't get above some certain SAT score, the schools wouldn't even consider you. Now that that barrier has been removed, so many kids are applying to every single school, which is why all these schools are getting record number of applications. And I'm sorry, when you have 90,000 applications, are you really looking at these carefully and individually and holistically? Probably not. So it's come you know with a pros and cons, sort of you know, with sort of the test option.
Susan Rhee:Now, next year several schools did bring testing back, like UT Austin did, yale did, georgetown did, and I think they're just seeing that there are some correlation to how kids do their freshman year if they had a test score submitted, and I think the trend is going to continue where schools are going to start requiring tests. However, nics school counselors did say that even these schools that are saying they're test optional, if they look at the kids that they're admitting, a very high percentage had test scores. So it's like one of those things where you're sort of trying to read the tea leaves of each school to sort of see sort of what your decision is with respect to your testing, because you can send to some schools and not send to others. It's not a uniform thing.
Sam Rhee:So if you're a good test taker, it's to your advantage to take these tests yes, yes, and perform well. Yes, your advantage to take these tests, yes, yes, and perform well. Yes, and I think, having taken tests a lot, there are so many occupations and options in life that are open. The better off, the better test taker you are, whether it's the LSAT, the MCAT. You know everything else after that. So if you have a kid who you might not think is the best test taker, I think it behooves you to work on their test taking skills. I think that's really important.
Sam Rhee:It's like I hate to liken it to CrossFit because that's such a far analogy, but it is sort of like when you perform in a comp for CrossFit. Performing well in a comp for CrossFit, performing well in a competition or any competition, is a skill right. So you could be a great baseball player, but if you're in a game time situation, it takes experience in that game time to be able to execute. You could do great in batting practice. You know every day with your team, but in certain points in time you have to be able to execute and you might know all the material that is in the SAT or any other standardized test, but if you can't process, evaluate and spit out the right answer, it's going to really hurt.
Sam Rhee:And so, as much as I hate the way these standardized tests, the importance that it is on them, I realize because I have been in historically a good test taker, that that's what got me through, and I can only advise people to reach their maximum potential in terms of test taking, and so I think that that's something that is a hard truth for some kids.
Sam Rhee:But listen, I tell kids you know who are pre-med dude, you better. You're going to be taking a lot of tests like a lot, and if you struggle, it's going to be a long road and it has nothing to do with how compassionate you are, how good your hands are, how much knowledge you can retain. It's about getting that right answer, and so it's unfortunate, but that's something that I think kids need to know early. Let's talk about their extracurriculars and you know what? Let's also lead that into crafting their story. So I think one of the things that kids can really control in terms of the process is what story they present to college admissions, and so how did our kids do that and how did they come about deciding what their quote story is?
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think for both of them they kind of leaned into what they were most interested in, and so for Sasha, that was ethics and philosophy. She really loved the teachings, the classes, and so she really leaned on ethics and philosophy and so she took all the ethics and philosophy courses that the school had. She was a member of the ethics bowl team since freshman year and then was a captain her senior year. So she really leaned into that.
Susan Rhee:Although he took some time for him to acknowledge the fact that he's a very good writer and so, since he wasn't completely sure what he wanted to study, I asked him to consider being an English major, because that is what he loved. He loves to write, and so he was already writing for the paper and that's where he found the most joy, he said, was when he was just sitting down and writing. So I think the narrative really starts with, and has to start with, what are your kids passionate about? What is it that they like? Because that story is going to have to be woven in through all the activities extracurriculars, summer programs that they do leading up to their senior year.
Sam Rhee:Yeah, so I agree wholeheartedly. You're like you said. There's so many highly qualified applicants. You have to present a story, a unique as you can story, to these admissions counselors or officers. So if you are just sort of scattershot in terms of all of your interests, you dabble a little bit here, you dabble a little bit here, dabble a little bit there. It doesn't really work so great.
Sam Rhee:I think if you can weave everything into a cohesive personal narrative, it makes the kids stand out. Oh, they're the one who cares about ethics, and so they do ethics, this, and they're also into humanitarian efforts here and they do this, and so you know, and they're a leader in this. So I agree, I don't know whether or not you need to go against the grain so much. So, for example, there are a lot of kids and maybe we did this with Nick too like that are applying for STEM, and maybe we did this with Nick too like that are applying for STEM. They're all like science, tech, engineering, math, whatever. And there's such a glut of these kids. So is it worthwhile to sort of play up the contra contrarian application where you're like no, I'm, I'm a liberal arts guy and I really want to write, or I, you know, I have something that's completely different, because they need to fill English departments, too, with students. Do you think that that's helpful?
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think it depends on the schools you're applying to. There are certain schools that you actually have to be admitted into their engineering program, you have to be admitted into their business school, and so you can't sort of do a. You know what is it? Bait and switch like apply as a humanities major. Then all of a sudden you're really going to go to comp sci and try to get into their STEM program Because some schools don't let you switch between the colleges within the university. But hey, these kids are 17 or 18. Do they really know what they want to do? So there has to be a path for them to be able to do that.
Susan Rhee:I don't think you can switch unless your rubric and your story has shown that you want to do humanities. Like if all you've been doing is comp sci and then all of a sudden you apply as a humanities major. That's sort of not going to work as far as your stories go. These admissions offices are not stupid. They've seen it all Right, and so you know that was. One of the benefits for Nick is that he was not a STEM major and he was not interested in STEM and his interest was English, and I do think that made his process a lot easier than his STEM friends that are applying for these coveted engineering spots at all of these schools.
Sam Rhee:How about the guy and we know someone who was an accomplished pianist applied? Submitted all of the you know performance tapes for music, met everyone at the School of Music you know they loved him. Got in and then flipped to pre-med immediately when he got into school. Like, is that a bait and switch?
Susan Rhee:Yes, because I think you listen.
Sam Rhee:Is it wrong?
Susan Rhee:I don't think it's wrong because I think if the story works, listen, I feel.
Sam Rhee:He was a very accomplished pianist. It wasn't like he was lying.
Susan Rhee:Right, and he went through auditions, he did all that. But I also feel like the colleges have set up this game and set up this system, and these kids are just savvy enough to figure out how to work within the system, which, frankly speaking, is what you're going to have to do for the rest of your life, whether you're in the corporate world, medicine or whatever it is. It's sort of seeking out the best way to get to your end goal. And so, no, I don't think it's wrong, because he did go through all the steps.
Sam Rhee:Those auditions are not easy and you know he just found a way to, you know, sort of get in, sort of the back door. Now, full disclosure. Each of our kids had two college admissions counselors to help them, one from Dwight, and then we also hired a private admissions counselor.
Susan Rhee:They were for two very different things.
Sam Rhee:Because people are going to listen to this and be like, oh my god, these guys are like Asian tiger parents who are just gaming the system like nobody's business.
Susan Rhee:Listen, I think that one of the things we were very fortunate that, unlike most public schools, dwight has a dedicated counselor and only has 18 to 20 students. So they are working with them since the summer of sophomore year. They're working on their college list, they're working on their applications, they're working on their essays. It's still a school. They do not work in the summer and so with both of our kids they were applying to a lot of schools. It was a lot of essays.
Sam Rhee:How many schools did they each apply to?
Susan Rhee:Sasha applied to 18 and Nick applied to 21.
Sam Rhee:That's called shotgunning, isn't it?
Susan Rhee:Well, I think that the college counseling office is very smart in that they don't want your list to be a list of all nine IVs and one school that you're likely to get into, because it is very possible that you will get rejected from all nine, and so they want a balanced list. So the more schools they had, sort of on the more difficult spectrum, you needed to have a balancing list of schools that were sort of targets for them or pretty likely they were going to get in, which just adds schools which ends up in the number that they ended up having.
Sam Rhee:So they had a ton of schools.
Susan Rhee:They had a ton of schools and what I told them was, especially with Sasha, I said listen, you're taking a very heavy course low senior year. I don't know how you're going to write all these essays and do well in these classes. And so we hired an essay coach to sort of get them through where and, trust me, they are not writing these essays for their kids. They had to write them all and they would just meet with them to sort of get ideas or do edits here and there. But for me I loved it because it wasn't me nagging them to get on their essays, they were working with someone that was putting them on a sort of timeline to get this stuff done.
Susan Rhee:Now, one kid did better with the timeline, the other kid did not. We dragged the other one past through the whatever, but they all stuff done. Now, one kid did better with the timeline, the other person, the other kid, did not. You know, we dragged the other one past, you know, through the whatever. But they all got done. And so it was really more from that perspective that we I just wanted most of them done before they had sort of a crushing load of schoolwork for senior year.
Sam Rhee:So if I don't have the resources to hire a bazillion people, could I recruit people around me and other people to help reading these essays, helping you know, edit them, providing commentary, helping them with deadlines, all that stuff?
Susan Rhee:Absolutely. I mean, I think you know if you're interested in a certain topic you've had a teacher, an English teacher somewhere that you've connected with in the four years. I know English teachers are very happy to help students and read it and you know, honestly speaking, all these prompts. After the first five schools you can kind of recycle the essays and so once you have a good sort of framework, I think you're pretty good to finish off the rest of the essays.
Sam Rhee:If we had to do it again, would we still hire a bunch of people to do all this stuff for us? Yes, oh all right, let's talk about the college application process. So we talked a little bit about the early part of it. They got negged and deferred and then they had to apply and submit applications to a bunch of schools, right? So they completed. So they had a list of 20-some schools. They only applied to one early decision. They didn't get in. Did they already finish their applications for all the other schools?
Susan Rhee:So what I told them was listen, depending on what happens on that ED, you're going to be in no mental state to submit or do any essays.
Sam Rhee:You'll be so sad.
Susan Rhee:Yes, so they had everything done by mid-November and they submitted them all Because I was like, listen, if you get in, we have a withdrawal party, if you don't get in, these are already in, you don't need to think about it. So some people wait because it is expensive to apply to all these schools.
Sam Rhee:It's like $75 a pop, but you could at least get everything done. Not submitted.
Susan Rhee:Yes, but you know how I am, so I didn't even want them in that emotional state. But if you didn't want to blow like two grand or something, yes, just have them done and then if the outcome is not what you desired, then you can just hit the submit button and then just get them all in before November, January 1st.
Sam Rhee:And so they did that. And this was the part where I actually, for all the heartache and waiting, probably was the best growth part of it for the kids and me in terms of figuring out, okay, my first choice is not possibly available to me, what other schools could I really see myself going to? And I think that that was a big growing up process for our kids and for me too, because it was not like, okay, mindless Duke, there we go, done. It was like, oh, does Georgetown look like a school for me too? Because you know, it was not like, ok, mindless Duke, there we go, done. It was like, oh, does Georgetown look like a school for me? Does Tufts? Does Boston College? Does you know Maryland, the Syracuse? Like they might have to fall back on one of the schools that they hadn't considered before. How many schools did they go to and when did they visit all of these schools? Was it beforehand?
Susan Rhee:Yeah, so I think we started junior year for each of them, and I think I have visited over 18 schools.
Sam Rhee:Now we have the resources to do that. Yes, I think I have visited over 18 schools. Now we have the resources to do that. Was it worthwhile to do that?
Susan Rhee:I think it was because they had so many schools on the list that the visits actually took schools off the list where they were like no way, I can never see myself here. So at least it whittled down the list because there was no sense in wasting your time for a school that you would never want to go to. So it helped for that. And I also think you know these kids. They either have a certain vibe at a school or they don't, and so I feel like in their mind, going through this process, it kind of put the schools in a pecking order of yes, I could, and I don't love it, but I could go if that was my only choice.
Sam Rhee:So that helps.
Susan Rhee:Yes.
Sam Rhee:Very different from my parents, who never sent me to a single school until after I got admitted. I got admitted to three other than Ohio State, and so they're like all right, you can visit these schools, and then I just visited.
Susan Rhee:And a lot of people do that. There's virtual tours you can do and people just wait to see what they've, where they've gotten in, and then they just visit those schools. So there's multiple ways you can do it.
Sam Rhee:Okay. So let's actually talk about the application. So Sasha pulled and I can't wait because when Nick gets to school I want him to pull his app, just so I could see what they said. I would imagine that a lot of schools work similarly. This is Duke's process, but I would imagine other schools sort of work the same way. The first thing is that the first page has obviously gender, it has ethnicity, it has their citizenship status in terms of US citizen or not. It has their date of birth, it has their study, what their intended major is you know ethics, philosophy, engineering, what have you and they also have a couple different tags which show you what they're interested in. One tag is first generation, college. One is first generation in the United States. They have a general tag adversity. Economic diversity is another tag. So they are looking for, are looking for, different specific types of demographics here, and so does that make you feel okay, not okay when you see like they actually have highlights specifically in the app for applicants who meet these criteria.
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think I don't feel one way or another, but I think I just feel like that's the reality of what we're dealing with, not just in college admissions but everywhere in the world. And so, and I think these kids know, like these kids are not sort of head you know, heads in their books and not observant of what's going on around them, and so you know they know they have friends that fit some of those boxes and they just don't. They don't hold it against them, they just see it as listen. That's just another part of their story.
Sam Rhee:They also have tags for legacy siblings applications, disciplinary action. You know so pretty much if you you better avoid any kind of disciplinary action in high school, because that's like a deal killer, it looks like to me. And then they also have ratings based on. So they list your school, what high school you go to, how many kids are in your class. So there were 126 in Sasha's class. They don't have a ranking, but I guess it's too early for rank, so they just leave that blank.
Susan Rhee:They don't rank at Dwight actually. Yeah, but other schools might right.
Sam Rhee:If that's there, then they probably would put that rank in. They list their any standardized score, and then they also now have the categories on which they do a points evaluation. So they have one, two, three, four, five, six numerical scores. One is C curriculum, and so we had to sort of decipher this. I assume it's basically how difficult the curriculum is at the school or what's offered at your school. So does that seem fair that just by virtue of what school you go to, you might get a lower ranking in terms of what's available for you, in terms of your resources?
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think every admission event that I've attended, I think they have that in there also, because they've realized that there are some schools in rural areas they don't offer any AP testing and so they sort of have a good rubric of each high school that they're getting these applicants from and so they're not comparing our school versus a school that's somewhere rural that doesn't have those AP scores. So I think it's just so they're not cross comparing. So I think it's just so they're not cross comparing. So I think it's just for Sasha what her school's sort of metric is, because then they're going to use that to compare it to how did she were in that and how they evaluate it are our recommendations, and then E, c is extracurriculars, so they will rank that.
Sam Rhee:And then the other two which they are I guess deemphasizing now is one is essays, I guess because of all the AI stuff going on, so they're not even going to be ranking that as a numeric, but in Sasha's case they did. And then T is testing. So they basically scored every aspect, these different aspects, on a one to five basis and then they added it all up and then you got a score and there were two people who looked at each application. So one person would look at it, give their total, the other person would give their scores, total it up, and then the aggregate, the two readers' scores, gave you a number. And did you feel like this was a fair way of assessing these applicants?
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think with the number of applications, it's probably the only way to do it. I think Duke was test optional and they're still test optional. So I think although they put the scores down if you submit it, they don't actually rank them, and so I was not surprised that they did it this way. I was surprised at sort of the rankings, because I thought some of them were kind of low.
Sam Rhee:Which ranking was low.
Susan Rhee:Like I thought, for her academics, like I'm not really sure why she didn't get the top score for that, considering what her body of work was and so I'm not you know. So some of that was confusing. And her recommendations I thought they ranked her just very average and she got recommendations from two teachers that she's had a long history with at the school. So why they just found them to be average, I thought that was kind of surprising.
Sam Rhee:So, at least for Sasha, she ended up being deferred and the comments that were made at the end. So they have comments and I guess there's some supervisor person who rereads these applications and then sort of looks at the recommendations that these reviewers make and it looked like there was a possibility, based just on the comments, that she was going to be rejected in the regular decision. So there is some leeway in terms of individuality, like it's not just a straight number, because if it was straight numbers she might not have gotten in, even though her numbers looked artificially. I don't know the way that those guys rated it.
Sam Rhee:Um, the person who made comments here actually knew Dwight Englewood as a school and said that, um, she, she was one of the strongest applications from Dwight. Um, she was one of the strongest applications from Dwight, even though, and said the curriculum is about the best she's going to do there. So it seems like a lot of these admissions officers do know these schools individually and they do that. They do take that into consideration. We actually were privy to someone else who was kind enough to give us their application and I don't think the numbers were that much better, but he was an admit and Sasha was a deferred. You know, maybe deny almost what makes you think these people look at this and what is it that they're looking at that maybe we're not seeing here.
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think they look at the school you're coming from and the school that this the friend of ours that he was coming from is a very heavy STEM, very well-known school in Bergen County and historically this school has gotten in four to five kids to Duke during the early decision process. So it was not surprising to me that, even though on paper they look the same, that he was admitted, you know, at Dwight, we know there's only one student that has gone in, that has gotten in every year for the last four to five years and so, and so I wasn't surprised that they might look the same on paper. But I also think it depends on the school that you're coming from.
Sam Rhee:I think APs do seem to play a big role in terms of judging academic rigor. They listed that Sasha took seven APs out of 18, including advanced physics calculus. That Sasha took seven APs out of 18, including advanced physics calculus, and that she had gotten fives on all of those. They had mentioned her captain of the soccer team for two years. All of these things do play a role in terms of when you get down to the nitty gritty of these things, right?
Susan Rhee:Yeah, I mean, I think they're looking for the whole student right. They want someone that's well-rounded. I also think the extracurriculars really help, because if a student's very involved and has been involved in their high school, most likely they're going to come to your campus and also be very involved. And what college doesn't want a student that's going to be very active within their community? And so I think that they sort of see that as sort of a precursor right, like if you did all these things in high school, most likely the chances are you're going to do this and give back to the university as well.
Sam Rhee:You know it's funny. One of the comments they made on our friend's application was his essay about the skills for fantasy football being transferable to other areas of life was nicely written and well crafted and I'm like there are probably 5 million kids who are into fantasy football who probably could use that essay. But I guess it's really just about how you write it. It could be about anything. I mean, fantasy football to me is one of the most mundane sort of like you know, banal things you could talk about, but clearly he crafted it in a way that was compelling. So I think a lot of it has to just be with your authenticity. You don't have to find something noble and exotic in order to write about it. It literally could just be about the fact that you love fantasy football. But if you write about it in a really real, true, authentic way, they will like it.
Susan Rhee:Listen, some of this stuff is you know you're reading this essay that you spent hours drafting in five minutes, so it has to be something that's easy to read, catches the eye and keeps their interest for five minutes. Basically and who knows, the thing is all random, so maybe his reviewer at Duke loves fantasy football too, like you. Just don't know.
Sam Rhee:What if they had not gotten into Duke, which is I honestly thought neither of them were going to After they both got deferred, sasha, there was no way. And then after that, when Nick got deferred, I was like there's no way. And both of them, I think, had thought about USC, which they did go to. And a little part of me still is like man, I wish I could visit them at USC and hang out and in LA and you know, tailgate at USC football games and I think that was so cool. But obviously it's not my story. It's not a story. It doesn't really matter what I think as a parent, that's just very selfish. Do?
Susan Rhee:you think they could have been more successful had they gone to a different school? I think they would have been successful, no matter where they went. It could have been the last school on their list, if that's what it came down to what was their last school.
Susan Rhee:I'm just kidding, I don't know. And so I think the DNA and the sort of the personality traits that got them to a position to even apply to these schools, that's not changing, no matter where they go, because at this point that's in their rubric, that is who they are. So they would do well no matter where they were. And USC will always have sort of a really fond place in my heart because it was the one school that both our kids got into in January. That just put the pressure off. If everything went to hell in a handbag, they were going to USC, which is a school they both really liked.
Sam Rhee:I loved it.
Susan Rhee:Yeah, I mean what's not to like? And so I think for Nick and Sasha it was almost like half the weight had been lifted off their shoulders because they knew they were going to USC, no matter what happened with Duke and the other 10 schools that they applied to.
Sam Rhee:Fight on.
Susan Rhee:Exactly, that's all Sasha was saying for about two and a half months, and so you know. But the interesting part of it is, in hindsight, now that they're at Duke and he's going to Duke, sasha said she would have been happy at USC, but she's so glad she's at Duke. So it's one of those things with all these kids whatever school they go to, they're going to make it their own.
Sam Rhee:What happens to the kid. And we know a couple who just got negged by every high choice that they wanted to really go to and ended up going to their sort of backup type school and were absolutely crushed. Just it just was so disheartening for them. Like how do you as a parent sort of help them through that, how do you sort of deal with that? Like it's to feel like you failed after all this effort at age 18. Like that's just soul crushing.
Susan Rhee:I mean, I think it's sort of how the expectations that you as a parent sets up right. Like you know, we just kept on telling our kids it does not matter where you go to school, we don't care where you go to school and that it doesn't define you, and really just work hard at where you are, and then maybe, if you want to go to grad school, that is more of a meritocracy, that is more of what you've done, whereas a lot of the college admissions process is luck and it's random to some extent, and so we were very careful not to categorize a school as good or not as good, because to me, the only requirement that I had on their list was you better be happy going to number 20, because that could be where you end up.
Susan Rhee:I mean, you can say that you can say that, but that's all you can do, right? It's just reinforce the fact that we're not going to be disappointed, no matter where they go, if they don't get into what they think is one of their top schools. No matter where they go if they don't get into what they think is one of their top schools. Listen, you can say all this, but it's kind of a grieving process for them too. They've put all this time four years of their life like blood, sweat and tears. You just need to give them space to process it, and once they process it, they will come back around, but you need to give them that time.
Sam Rhee:How happy are you now that this process is over? We don't have another child.
Susan Rhee:Thank God we don't have another child.
Sam Rhee:To go through this.
Susan Rhee:Could you do it again? No, Really.
Susan Rhee:I really could not do it again. I think you know I'm so happy that they are at their number one choices. Selfishly, I'm very happy that they're together, together, but sort of will be separate because it's a huge campus and Sasha's going abroad for his first semester. But you know, it would have worked out either way, like if he was at USC it would have been fine too. I mean, we were already planning trips out there and whatnot, and so I'm happy that they're happy in where they are. But I think they secretly also know that if it had not worked out, they would be fine too.
Sam Rhee:What is the last piece of advice you could give to someone who has a kid who's a freshman sophomore about to start this process? What would you tell the parents of that child?
Susan Rhee:You know, I would tell them that it's a long process. I would say that if you have a father and a mother in the household that you choose one parent to be the one that's going to be the nagger, the one that's sort of in the weeds with the kid, because the kids need a release and a break so when they're sick of you they can go to the other parent and talk about trivial, mundane things like NBA games or whatnot. So just have it be sort of centered on one person and to just keep reminding them that this does not define them. And do not call a school good or bad. Or you know you should have, you know you should have gotten into a much better school. Like, why didn't you get into that school? Because, at the end of the day, these kids have put everything they have into it and the outcome is really completely out of their control at that point.
Sam Rhee:Thank you for sharing your experience. I really appreciate it. I hope people listening understand that, and if it turns out to be a complete failure by your child's standard, I think you're right. You have to lay the groundwork ahead of time so that if that happens, it's not the end, all and be all.
Sam Rhee:We heard of a kid at Andover or Phillips Academy, one of the private schools up in Massachusetts who killed himself after he didn't get into his choice of schools. He committed suicide, and there was actually one. There was another incident, I think, where someone tried to and they stopped that other student, and so this this is very serious for kids like this is heartstoppingly serious, literally for these kids, and so, as parents, as much as it is important to us, there's nothing more important than just supporting your kid, and if they fail completely at the process I have failed completely at many things in my life Like many of those things turned out to be catalysts for doing something else, and so I hope one of the things we can build into our kids and I don't know how much of a role or how good we did with our kids. I'm not sure We'll have to wait and see. They've been pretty lucky so far, it's just resilience after failure, and so this is a long process.
Sam Rhee:Failure is always lurking around the corner with this. If they turn out, no matter where they end up going, I think it has to be something where we as parents have sort of prepped them to deal with it, and sometimes it works out great, sometimes it doesn't. I sympathize with every parent and every kid out there. So good luck, and I hope that they all find where they're meant to be so thank you there. So good luck, and I hope that they all find where they're meant to be. So thank you, suze.
Susan Rhee:You're welcome.