Botox and Burpees
Botox and Burpees
S05E108 Language & Identity as a Korean American with Sasha Rhee
Cultural identity exists in the spaces between languages, generations, and countries. When Sasha joins her father for this candid conversation, they unravel what it means to grow up Korean American through their distinct generational lenses.
Sasha, a third-generation Korean American with suprising Korean reading and speaking abilities, proudly embraces her heritage while acknowledging its complexities. Her father takes a different stance—having consciously distanced himself from certain Korean traditions he found restrictive growing up. Their dialogue opens a fascinating window into how immigrant families navigate cultural preservation across generations.
The conversation travels through unexpected territory: how the Korean language itself encodes hierarchy, making it impossible for children to argue with parents as equals; the traditional family genealogy book that's meant to pass through sons, not daughters; and the delicate balance of maintaining cultural touchpoints like birthday celebrations and food traditions while letting go of more restrictive practices.
What emerges is a thoughtful exploration of belonging. Is being "Korean enough" about language fluency, cultural knowledge, or something deeper? How do families decide which traditions to preserve and which to modify? When Sasha shares her plans for raising future children, she reveals how each generation must create their own relationship with heritage—keeping what resonates while making space for new cultural identities to emerge.
Whether you're navigating your own cultural hyphenation or curious about how immigrant identities evolve across generations, this episode offers a warm, honest look at the beautiful complexity of Korean American experience. Subscribe now and join our conversation about the cultures that shape us and the choices that define us.
#KoreanCulture #LearnKorean #KoreanAmerican #HeritageAndTradition #PodcastLife #CulturalIdentity #FamilyHeritage #AsianAmerican #BotoxAndBurpees #podcast @botoxandburpeespodcast
Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees. I'm here with my ever-present podcast guest star, Sasha Rhee. Welcome back, Sasha.
Speaker 2:Hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yes, today we're going to talk about something that's a little different, probably a little more personalized. It's about the Korean language and growing up in America and dealing with learning the Korean language or not learning the Korean language, as the case may be, and sort of how our experiences are with that. I am someone who was born in the United States, but my parents moved to the United States from South Korea about a year or two before I was born. You obviously were born to two parents who grew up in the United States me and Susan so obviously our perspectives on this are a little bit different. So, to start off, let's talk about your knowledge of the Korean language and how good are you in terms, or comfortable are you, about speaking Korean?
Speaker 2:So everyone that I meet who's like you, like the child of Korean immigrants, like all my friends at like Duke, who are like that generation, they all say the same phrase, which is like you're really good at Korean, for like a third generation kid which so most of them have parents that who immigrated from Korea.
Speaker 1:So they're like you, okay, because.
Speaker 2:I guess the way it works is like first generation is you're the first generation to live in America. Okay, and then second and then third, so I'm third, so I'm second and so they're telling you for a third generation.
Speaker 2:You're pretty good at korean yeah, like some of them are really surprised because I happen to know like a lot of slang. I know a lot like I, like I'm up to date with like the curve, the comment, like the commoner korean, like just how people speak usually. But in terms of like my actual speaking ability, I can read and write fluently, which a lot of people are surprised by, because usually it's the reverse when it comes to people learning a language, and then my understanding is not bad and my speaking is not good. My grammar is like horrible so what do you mean?
Speaker 1:by what level is it like? Are you at? I would say, in terms of reading and writing, I'm fluent like a third grade level, at a fifth grade, like a high school level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's like I can. Okay my writing is like at a high school, like middle school level oh, get out my writing is really good, and then my reading is like perfect. I can read for as long as you need me to okay so my reading I'm I promise you I'm very literate like I could read for days and days and days, because how many combinations are there?
Speaker 1:all right, I'm pulling out a out a Korean text on like philosophy, like the existential philosophy.
Speaker 2:I will not understand what I'm reading, but I could read it for days.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then you're.
Speaker 2:My comprehension is like advanced elementary, like middle school, I want to say, and then my speaking is like a kindergartner, which is when I stopped Korean school. So Okay.
Speaker 1:What kind of slang words do you use all the time in Korean?
Speaker 2:Okay what kind of slang words do you use all the time in Korean? Well, I don't use them, but I know them. Like, for instance, like in Korea, they really like iced Americanos. It's like no matter the season, and so they call it like ah, like iced Americanos, like the first syllable of each one, that like there's, like baebak, which means like awesome, like horror, which means like whoa.
Speaker 1:And where'd you learn all of this slangy Korean?
Speaker 2:From K like horror, which means like, whoa, like. And where'd you learn all of this slangy korean? From k-pop? Okay, so did you learn all of your korean from k-pop? So obviously you know this. But so, like my mom's, my maternal grandmother like raised like didn't raise me, but she was around the house a lot because both my parents worked when I was younger and, like my mom would travel, my dad obviously go to the office. So I first picked up korean from her. Like mom has like anecdotes in that journal that you guys wrote when I was like two saying like I think sasha's confusing korean and english because she speaks I think she's speaking a little bit of korean at like preschool and whatever. So I first picked it up through grandma and then they said you guys sent me to korean school for like five years. So I did Korean school.
Speaker 1:And that was from when to when. Like what grades?
Speaker 2:I studied at the same kindergarten level the entire time. I think it was like five to ten. I want to say Four to eight, maybe.
Speaker 1:Four to nine yeah.
Speaker 2:So I did Korean school for a while. That's what taught me to read and write. And then I like stopped Korean school and I got into K-pop around like 12, 13, like I want to say, 13. And then that also like watching YouTube videos of my favorite Korean artists, like that also then kind of like kept me up to date with, like helped me practice a little bit. Why do you care about learning Korean? Well, k-pop wasn't because I cared about learning Korean. K-pop was because, like, I enjoyed it a lot and it just happens that they're young and they use slang and you pick up on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think for me, like learning it when I was younger was not on my mind, like we just were forced to go to Korean school, basically, and Nick and I particularly did not enjoy it. If we're being honest, I think now it's I've kind of given up on learning it honestly, fully and ever becoming fluent and like advancing my level. But I don't know some part of me because it's like my background and like I at least know some of it.
Speaker 2:I want to like at least maintain that, like I don't want to forget it why, because it's part of my heritage, I feel like being Korean is very important to me it is yes, why?
Speaker 2:I'm very proud to be a Korean really yeah, I find a lot of pride in it, like I don't know if it's because, like my grandparents immigrated from Korea, or just like when we went I had like such an amazing time and I feel like I thought honestly we weren't that Korean, which is like because we're very American. But then when we went to Korea and we went into that little museum I don't know if you remember, we went to like a little museum that like went through a life cycle of like a Korean person, from like the first birthday, the first birthday, all the way to like the traditions you do when someone dies or whatever. I like realized we like did more than I thought and like the way we operate in our lives is more Korean than I thought.
Speaker 1:Like what.
Speaker 2:Well, one like I just I don't know Like I forgot we had like a first birthday and all that. Oh yeah, we did the rice cake soup like, whatever, like things like that, where I was like, oh, like we still do a lot of things for the fact that I'm two generations now removed from the people that lived in Korea. So I feel like being Korean is very important to me. I just think it's also important to have pride in your culture and I feel like Korea has grown so much and evolved and like there are obviously downsides to it, but I feel like neglecting that is like there's no point are most of your friends Korean.
Speaker 2:I do most of my friends like. I have definitely more korean friends than anyone else but I still have like a diverse group. But there is that cultural connection still with my korean friends are there any downsides to being a korean american? I think one of the downsides of my being my generation, third generation, is the language Like how.
Speaker 2:Just that the priority, or I guess the way I was raised, like because you know, mom is fluent in Korean, because, like grandma literally does not speak any English, like I guess, like for me the difference, or which I see kind of as a downside, is that like the language has somewhat Fade not faded, but like isn't. Like Nick and I are not as fluent, but we can obviously learn on our own, but I think it's like that type of aspect is different.
Speaker 1:I think you have a different perspective.
Speaker 1:First, of all my two brothers are way worse at Korean than you are and they're and my mother spoke 99% Korean. I think a lot of it was conscious, or maybe not conscious, but there were. It was deliberate on my part not to lean in on being Korean or growing up Korean or leaning into Korean culture or the Korean language for a bunch of reasons, and those reasons seem to be different than your reasons about wanting to be very proud about you know, having a Korean culture and a Korean background. Does this, but does any of that really help you in life?
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't think like I'm proud. I want to be proud like I'm proud to be a Korean, because like it will somehow help me in life. It's not like I feel like it's like not something that gives me like extrinsic value of like this is going to like give me more money or help me succeed more or whatever. It's just like something that I feel like is intrinsic to your identity. It's intrinsic to who, at least I am. It's intrinsic to who at least I am and I have. I feel like Korean culture has led me to such so many great communities and like friendships and relationships in my life.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm also biased because you know, like I did a Korea Finance Society fellowship, for instance, you know, which builds on that intrinsic value of like being Korean, and I guess there is some extrinsic value to that, but I really think like it's nothing about advancing or leading to other results, it's more of an intrinsic thing.
Speaker 1:Wouldn't it just be more useful to learn Spanish or another language other than leaning into Korean?
Speaker 2:honestly, I mean my Spanish is better than my Korean in terms of like, like vocabulary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like I took Spanish for a really, really long time.
Speaker 2:I mean like Duke offers Korean, like I took Spanish for a really, really long time.
Speaker 1:I mean like Duke offers Korean, and I took Spanish wasn't it good that I taught you, I forced you to take Spanish instead of Latin when you uh had a language choice early on in your academic career?
Speaker 2:yes, but I also think making the direct comparison between Korean and Spanish is very different how so? Well, at least from my perspective, because, like, I am Korean and in my everyday life currently maybe not in my professional life later on, but in my area, like currently, if I was more fluent in Korean, that would be a lot, that would just like advance a lot of parts of my life, like whether it's like my relationship with, like grandma or like things like that, or like my own personal like perception of myself and me being Korean.
Speaker 1:One of the things that Korean culture does or leans into pretty heavily are gender differences misogyny. There is a lot of misogyny in the Korean culture, so why would you even lean into learning the Korean culture or being part of it, when they literally treat women so much worse than men?
Speaker 2:I think there's like a tension between it because, like I said, like intrinsically we are still, our roots are still in Korea and, like I am a Korean person, not because of like choice, but because, like that is the ethnicity that I was born with.
Speaker 2:Obviously, korea is an extremely patriarchal country.
Speaker 2:I've done a lot of research on this, I've written a lot of papers about this, like I've read a lot of books about this, about how Korea, for instance, has like the number one gender pay gap in the world.
Speaker 2:But I think then that's where it adds to my nuance of I'm not just like blindly like wow, like I want to, like, maybe when I was younger and more naive, but now I appreciate the nuance of being a Korean American more because of like being American makes me cognizant of, like my Korean heritage, like living in America makes you cognizant of like certain things in Korea, like you said, like the patriarchy where there is like that tension in like America, let's like has like a better, um, like pay gap, for instance, or like things like that. Like I feel America, let's like has like a better, like pay gap, for instance, or like things like that. Like I feel like it's not like me wanting to learn Korean is like I want to live in Korea someday, like I want to like become a full you know what I mean like a Korean citizen and all that. It's more just like adding, I think, to like what it means to me to be Korean American and it's like a different it. They both kind of work in tandem.
Speaker 1:I would say someone would argue that you're kind of whitewashing the Korean culture that way.
Speaker 1:You're picking and choosing the aspects that you like but you're not actually sort of being honest in terms of the fact that there's so much about the Korean culture which is very negative and can be very difficult to deal with, very negative and can be very difficult to deal with.
Speaker 1:The language dictates how you think and the language itself. When you look at how they speak about men and women, like the terms men and women or husband and wife are literally different. Like the literal translation of husband is like outside person and the translation for wife is like inside person. Like woman is not supposed to be out, like they're supposed to be cloistered inside the house doing housework, men are the ones, literally, by the language definition, are the ones who are out doing things. So it's that kind of issue in the language that dictates how people think in that culture and that culture you can't separate and say, oh, I like this part of, I like the kimchi, but I don't like the bulgogi of the Korean language or the Korean culture and so I'm just going to pick and choose this, that, but not really acknowledge this part. That is really where I think people could argue that you're just kind of a dilettante when it comes to, like, picking out what is Korean to you well what.
Speaker 2:I don't appreciate that, but I honestly think, like I don't really know what solution you're trying to get at, to like respond to this type of argument like what. So then, like my, what I should do instead is just lean into fully being american. And because korean language, for instance, is like that, like I shouldn't try to learn or I shouldn't try to like continue to advance my skills with that like there are a lot of things where, like we live in america, yeah, we contribute to capitalism, for instance, quiet working things, like that people can make the argument that that's a horrible system. You know that there's a lot of inequity that you, by being upon you, mean by contributing and not like whatever. Like part of it is just acknowledgement instead of just refusing or turning away. I feel like from the entire concept in of itself. Like I feel like being aware one of like I talk all the time to my friends about, like the patriarchal standards of Korea. Like if you're Korean, you know how horrible Korea is to women. You can't like not know unless, like you are misogynistic.
Speaker 2:But just because I feel like it's better for me to be aware and acknowledge it and like be understanding of that than rather just like ignore being Korean and pretend like I'm not, like I don't know what the solution would be then.
Speaker 2:To that, pretend that I'm not Korean, turn away like I'm not learning this language because of that, like some people might respond that way, but personally I don't see that and I get called whitewashed all the time and genuinely like I think that like sometimes, oh yeah, you can admit that, but it's not something that I necessarily like chose. A lot of the factors that have contributed to it are how I was raised, how you know, I mean like where I was raised, what location like even the town in Jersey that we live in versus, like Fort Lee is very different, and so, like I think that these are all things that for me to turn away and completely be like, well, I'm just going to not be Korean, then, like you know, not advance my language skills and not care about learning the language, I feel like that's not even anything better.
Speaker 1:I don't think you have to make a conscious choice to turn away, but the issue is is that you were raised not Korean on so many levels and to me, having seen what it means to grow up, korean people don't understand how limiting that is as a child, when the system is set up that you must have absolute obedience to your parents. There's no free will or choice for kids, like if you see very traditional Korean parents. They will dictate everything that you do, all of your study, where you go, what you do. You can't literally do anything without the dictates of your parents. I remember my parents when my mother and father got married, she had to live at my father's parents' house, even though my father had to. He immigrated to the United States but because she was now property essentially property and, quote, no longer part of her family but now part of her husband's family, she had to go and live with my father's parents, serve them, clean for them, cook for them, do all that stuff, because that is the way the Korean culture works and she had no choice.
Speaker 1:So many of the choices I made, either consciously or unconsciously, in terms of growing up, in terms of raising you guys, was not to be part of that. I really wanted to give you guys choices in terms of growing up. That's American, that is uniquely American in most cultures. Like, I don't think there are a lot of cultures that I see on the immigrant side where you can allow your children that freedom to grow, to be happy, to follow what they want to do, and so when I see a lot of people who are nostalgic for the old country or this is the way it used to be, for people it was better I don't find that the case at all.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying turn away from Korea or Korean culture, but I don't think people really understand what it means to be Korean. To be Korean is so restrictive that society is tight and you don't have a lot of freedom, and so you have that luxury of looking at it from an outside perspective, of being someone who could make that choice of whether you wanted to or not. I have friends who were forced to go to Korea and learn, and they couldn't do sports, they couldn't do anything else. They had to go, learn Korean, go back to Korea, study engineering, whatever it was, because that was the Korean way. And so it is one thing to look out from the outside and say, oh, this is nice. It's another thing to have to be forced to be in that system.
Speaker 2:Well for one, for you to say that I'm like a blind outside looking like I'm going to be so real. You cannot Like I am not like nostalgic for the old country, do not want to live. You know what I mean. Like I don't like me. Saying I am korean is a fact in terms of like my ethnicity.
Speaker 1:Ethnicity is me being korean sure, just like you're a woman yeah, like me, like, and an american and with black hair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, like that's my national, like these are just like like whatever like facts about, like who I am and like where I came from and like things that, like I was born like you know, like with two people with Korean heritage and that's not something like I necessarily chose, that doesn't necessarily mean that I like.
Speaker 2:When I say like I am Korean and like I want to learn the language, that does not at all imply that like I necessarily want to like go back to the old days, which I don't know what that means, like pre-war, post-war, like I don't want to like that doesn't mean I want to go back to it. I feel like that is one of like the tensions of being like korean american is acknowledging, obviously, like I said, like how horrible korea treats women like still today in the working place, like the sacrifices of motherhood in a career and things like that. But just me saying like like me wanting to learn the language does not necessarily mean that I want to like continue to perpetuate what like a lot of the stereotypes that korea can continue to put through. I am not saying that I wish I was born in korea or that I wish oh, I'm not saying that yeah, and I like that.
Speaker 2:Those are all things where it's like, like people that say sometimes people say I'm korean, not because, like that doesn't necessarily mean they're nostalgic for it.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's different when I see people which I've heard a lot of people who are not korean, not of korean ethnicity, have no familial or no relations at all to the country, and they're the ones who are like oh well, korea is so amazing, like Korea is like the perfect country and things like that.
Speaker 2:That's very different, I feel like. But I feel like a lot of Korean Americans do feel that tension and like, yes, like being raised in America allows you access to so many opportunities, like the American culture is much more forgiving, like you said, of people pursuing their passions and grades, not being everything and not making you go to like after school, for instance, and studies like 9 pm, like those are a lot of things. But I think simultaneously, there is still the feeling of some Korean Americans where it's like but it is difficult when you're not able to communicate with your grandparents, for instance, like things like that, I think, which are like nuanced tensions, that just saying like, like saying I'm proud to be Korean, is not necessarily like erase all of that either. Like it's hard to acknowledge I feel like everything in one statement, but that doesn't actually mean that I'm not going to be proud to be Korean in my own right and how I was raised in that mix of cultures.
Speaker 1:I think being in that mix is what makes it much better. That's the thing like leaning into the Korean side. I've seen even your generation kids who, or their families who've leaned, who are Korean American. They live in the United States, they are US citizens, but they self-isolate into Korean communities, just like the Fort Lees or the Palisades Parks, where they're not really engaging on the American culture side, but it's almost as if they're still living in Seoul.
Speaker 1:And those are the people that I look at and I have real difficulty with in terms of oh yeah, korea is so great. You know, you're rah-rah Korea. I'm leaning into Korean everything. Those are the people I think that are really not understanding what it means to be Korean American. And for me, yes, those are people who would look at me and say this guy is not Korean, not even a little bit. But on that side, as you said, I'm actually more Korean than most people think. I just don't sit there and make that my life or the way I feel like I should be living my life. I think that this is where I don't love people who look down on other Korean Americans for being too quote white or not Korean enough. And so there's a very slippery slope where I see a lot of people who judge other Korean Americans because of their lack of Korean-ness, and I would actually criticize them for leaning a little bit too much on the Korean culture side and saying, hey, listen, you guys really need to understand the quote.
Speaker 2:Like you said, tensions that are involved and maybe sort of recalibrate a little bit I mean, I also will say, like I've literally heard for my like almost 20 years of life, like you could not like, literally, I think every single year of my life I've heard like you are not great enough, like you're super white, like all these statements like I've heard a thousand times still in college. They don't bother me, though, because I acknowledge that, like, my connection to the korean culture is probably a lot weaker and a lot different than like these people who I feel like these families are talking about. They're kind of like how you're like, the same generation of your family, like the parents, are korean immigrants and the kids who are like my age now are like you, where they're like kind of navigating. They were born in america but their parents were not like. I obviously do think that it's very Like.
Speaker 2:How we view them is probably like very different from how they view us, and you know there is some bias in the sense that what they did is different from the choice that you made, and so people just make different choices and how they want to raise their kids in America and how they want to live in America and how they want to navigate America itself. But I mean, like you bring up a point where it's like if you really want it to be that Korean and just stay in Korea. But again, they also have a lot of nuanced tensions where it's like well, financially it might be, you know better. In America, for instance, maybe they don't want to go to the army. Like you know, there are still nuanced tensions on both sides, I think.
Speaker 1:I think the issue is is that these are people who want to take advantage of a lot of American benefits. Like the Korean, education system is super rigid and most kids end up not being able to achieve what they really want to because the entrance exams for colleges are impossible. The pressure is enormous. We think that there's a lot of pressure in college or in the college admissions process in the United States. Just wait till you look at these kids growing up in Korea the tutoring, the studying, the amount of psychological pressure that the system puts on them. A lot of families will come to the United States because you know there are so many avenues to success in America that you don't have in Korea. It's very rigid. In most universities you literally have to have somebody die in order to take for a position to open up. You can't create your own opportunities. It's like that in Europe and many countries as well. A lot of the opportunities that America has are not available either because of a cultural or systems issue in a bunch of different countries. So they come here.
Speaker 1:But if you're going to come here, I honestly feel like and maybe this is because I grew up in Ohio and I grew up in a very non-Korean society. My parents did hang out with their group of Korean friends and that's all they did, but I never felt like leaning into that side would help me on any level, and I don't think it really has on any level. Now, culturally, am I more bereft because I didn't learn more Korean or more Korean language skills. I went to Korean school, just like you did. For a bunch of years I did go to Korea and visited.
Speaker 1:We do have a bunch of Korean cultures and customs which I don't think are bad. Like I don't think to a certain degree, respecting your elders is a bad thing. In a lot of ways it's very important, but I don't think that sort of blind you, of blind devotion that you're supposed to do is appropriate. So I personally have picked and chosen the things that I think are appropriate and are helpful and are also touch points for our family in terms of cultural things. Just like all families have rituals, they all have special things that they do, whether it's something they've made up or something that's sort of been passed down on their families, and what I have liked I could have learned Korean a lot more over the years.
Speaker 1:I never chose to because I never felt like it was like yes, could I have spoken to my parents better? Yes, but did I really like speaking Korean? One of the biggest issues I had about learning Korean was I didn't think it was a very equitable language. So when you speak in Korean, the way you speak to someone older than you, as you know, and then someone who's your peer or who's lower in status to you is very different.
Speaker 1:So, literally, the words, the way you phrase things, you can't argue with your parents the same way in Korean as you could in English. When we argue as a daughter, father, in English, that language that we use when you speak to me, I speak to you is the same vocabulary, it's the same sentence structure, it's the same wording. But if we were to speak in Korean and you were arguing with me, you literally have a disadvantage as my daughter because you cannot use the same words, sentence structure and phrasing. You literally have to use words that make you subservient to me, because otherwise it is hugely disrespectful and it's crazy. And so when I would argue with my mother like there's no way I was going to speak Korean to her, I was going to. She would speak Korean to me, but I was no way I was going to speak English, because there's that that tone that I would have to use or that phrasing would never make it worthwhile to argue Like you automatically lose. You know by the. You know when you're saying oh, if it pleases you, mother, and she's like shut up, like there's no way it's going to be.
Speaker 1:Even so there was a lot of disincentive for me as I was growing up to learn Korean. I just didn't want to learn Korean because I never felt like it put me in an advantage for any reason. I mean, when you speak to Koreans Korean you're speaking in a different way. You're speaking to your grandmother. You're speaking to your peers you're speaking. You know, you're learning it through K-pop. That's a completely different motivation and a set of circumstances that I never really had. So I understand why you would want to do that, but I'm sure you could also understand why it was difficult for me and why my perspective is different in terms of what it means to me. So what are you going to do with your kids when they grow up? What Korean customs are you going to carry on? What kind of language skills are you going to encourage for them? You didn't. You didn't like doing korean language school. Would you have wanted us to continue that for you?
Speaker 2:I mean I like a lot of things we do when we're younger like you and nick talked about it in your episode and you and mom did too. We're, like we did kumon, for instance, and like I guess kumon is kind of similar to this thing in Korea called hagwon, but it's not as intense. It's just, you know, like supplementary work for school per se, and like Nick and I also didn't like that, like I think I cried way more about kumon than I ever did about Korean school and we still stuck with it. And now Nick and I, I think, are both very thankful that we were put in it and that it honestly had a very large impact, I think, on our trajectory in school and how I viewed like STEM subjects and my capability of doing math, for instance. I mean, I think a lot of it also. Like it's hard to predict because a lot of it depends on, like who I marry, for instance. Like what do they want? Like do they? Are they Korean? Even? Like if they're not Korean, then do they speak a language?
Speaker 1:So you must have a lot of friends who have one Korean parent, one non-Korean parent, right?
Speaker 2:I mean, I have probably more than your generation, but it's not necessarily like both parents speak another language, like. I see a lot of like half white, half Korean, where it's not like the tension of like well, do we teach our kids English or Korean, you like it's? It's a little bit different than like.
Speaker 1:If you had, for instance, like so what are their korean language skills like, or how do they approach the korean culture and as part of their life or their heritage. I mean it's very different.
Speaker 2:I've met half korean, like half korean americans, who have spoken better korean than me. I've also met I mean I've met full koreans who are my generation, who speak way less than me, know nothing. I mean this is also the spectrum of it's very much what the parents make it. Not all second generation koreans are, you know, are the same. Not all third generation korean americans are the same, like I think it very much that's like very much dependent on the parent. Like I've met, I know a couple like whatever, like you know, like white asians, like white koreans, who the mom is korean and so she, you know it was really important to her, so she was a lot more influential in like the upbringing and that's why the kids speak literally better Korean than me. I've also met ones where, like, the dad is Korean and the mom's white and, you know, somehow that dynamic led it to their kids knowing nothing and not really being culturally immersed in it.
Speaker 1:What would your choice be?
Speaker 2:Let's suppose whether you marry someone who's Korean or not Korean, what would you like your children to know in terms of their Korean heritage? I mean, I think the reality of it is like I have a lot of other things that I want to do in my life and the priority of, like me becoming fluent in Korean is not that large of a priority and like so I think, because of that reality, like there is no way that my kids will ever be fluent in Korean unless I send them, you know, I mean like to a like intense. You know I mean like to a like intense. You know I'll say, live in korea, like go to intensive korean boot camp, which is probably not going to happen for me as, like a mother I feel like in the future would you like them to learn or become fluent in korean like is that?
Speaker 1:would that be a plus for you?
Speaker 2:there's, just like it's. I can't really wrap my head around it because I'm not like there's. I don't know many people where the kid is better at a language than the parent per se and like I think that's just a reflection on like parent dynamics and whatever. And so honestly, for me, like what's being what's more important is like I don't like, I feel like just like understanding the culture and a sense of like understanding, like why we are creating, like the story of like you know, like the grandparent, like my grandparents, emigrating, which would be their great-grandparents, like how we came to America, like I feel like for me, understanding the stories and why, like my kids are who they are in the future and why they are like the fourth generation to live in America, hopefully, and things like that.
Speaker 2:I feel like that cultural comprehension and understanding and just both the acknowledgement, awareness, but also the appreciation of where they came from. I feel like that is inherently tied to my Korean heritage and having them understand that is inherently tied to my Korean heritage and having them understand that is more important. Obviously, I will probably have my kids eat Korean food. I will obviously hopefully at least take them to Korea if I can at one point in their lives. There are things like that, I feel like, which aren't necessarily. You don't need to know the language to be appreciative of your roots.
Speaker 1:You've mentioned at school that there are different groups of Asian students ones who sort of lean very like maybe they were international students who have come overseas, others who, as you said, are very sort of into whatever heritage or culture that they're in, and then others who are way less so, and I feel like you've mentioned that you don't really love it on either side. So what is it about, say, international students who come from Korea, who are in the United States? What is it that you don't love about sort of those aspects of their culture?
Speaker 2:I mean in my own like I feel like one, it's really hard to make generalizations. Like I've met a lot of international kids who went to high school in Korea through my career finance study fellowship and I didn't even know or I couldn't even like my first impression of impression of them was that, like they went to high school in America, for instance, and I think that that does still speak to the spectrum of not all international students argue necessarily fit this stereotype. I mean, like I will say, the majority of my interactions with Korean international students at Duke. I think there's just like a lot of judgment per se of like not being Korean enough, which I think is speaks to also other cultures. Like I feel like there's so much media out there for people feeling like they're not, you know like Indian enough or not black enough, or you know like not Hispanic enough, and that's, I think, just like a common thread among all people who grew up in a country versus growing up in America.
Speaker 1:What do you have to do to be Korean enough? Do you think in their eyes?
Speaker 2:I mean, and so that's why I have an issue with it, because I don't really know what that means Like, does that mean that my like that you know grandma and grandpa does it start with them not leaving Korea, or does it start, you know, is it all on me and I should have done it even if I started in America? Like that's a very complicated question, which is why I have an issue with it, because I think it's very hard to make that type of blanket statement, but at the same time, I do think that it is really hard being, it can be difficult transitioning as a Korean international student to American universities, I mean even how people dress, like how college is structured, and so I think that I push back a lot more on them and were more hard on them when I was in certain things. Because, at the end of the day, like I am who I am because of how I was raised and what generation Korean American I am, and you, could say the same thing.
Speaker 1:For that, let me put up an example of a Korean cultural tradition and ask you how to resolve this, because this is actually something that's been going on in our family and I've actually talked to it with some of my friends who are not Korean and they have very mixed views, like they've given me opinions about resolution of this, and it's been very different. And this is the genealogy book which we've talked about. So in the Korean tradition, your genealogy is written in this tome or textbook or whatever it is, this public book and basically all of your ancestors, as far back as you can remember, is written in it and it's shared and then it's passed down from generation to generation and it has basically your family tree listed in it. We were talking about as a family and my mother said that this has to be passed on to Nick. So my father's the oldest son, I'm the oldest son of our generation and so it would come to me, but then, when it came to me after me, it would go to Nick, because he is the son the son, not the daughter who you are, even though you are the oldest child.
Speaker 1:So to resolve this, what would be the solution? Should it go to Nick and respect the Korean cultural tradition, or should it go to you, because this is the way the tradition should actually be upheld, is going to is to change you, you know, because not all traditions have to be the same. Traditions change over time. Should it go just to the oldest child regard, regardless of gender?
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously as the oldest child in this situation, like I'm biased. I think I cared a lot more when I was younger. I'm honestly kind of over it. I don't really care about getting the book anymore because, at the end of the day, like the book is gonna die with our generation why, why not? Whatever, like it's not going to like have the same value necessarily.
Speaker 1:I think like we could keep it the same value like keeping it, but I mean I mean it'd be written in english yeah, like, for instance, like that like, so what?
Speaker 2:things like that, where I feel like it, like, at least for nick it won't, like he won't care as much about it as, let's say, like Grandpa did and like or they'll care about it in very different ways. Like for Grandpa, it's like this is like, this is ingrained, this is going to affect my children's names, and that's true For Nick. You know our generation. It's more like oh, this is like a cool thing from like our family and like, I think, for what we want to do with it.
Speaker 2:And so what would your suggestion be in terms of how should we interpret this? I mean, obviously, like for me, in terms of like, breaking tradition, like I think there are some traditions that need to be broken. I mean, look at the world today. Tradition is not necessarily forever set in stone. I mean, the tradition 50 years ago was that women were not really in investment banking, and the tradition 50 years ago was that women were not really in investment banking.
Speaker 2:And I am now a woman going into investment banking. Now we see women, female CEOs. I mean look at the CEO of Citibank, for instance. She's a woman. So it's like things like that. I think it's obviously for me I'm going to be like we should just break the tradition, like I should get it, like whatever. I mean I'm over it in the sense that I don't feel like fighting on it, like you know, per se, like I also think that there is the tension of, well, you also respect your grandparents wishes, but if we're being honest, I speak to grandma and grandpa with like, not that much respect in like my tone.
Speaker 1:I feel like sometimes and you mean, just because you don't have the language capabilities, it's English like you're not speaking grandpa in English.
Speaker 2:It's not like I'm necessarily like the most respectful tone per se like he. You know him, and I have had pun English. It's not like I'm necessarily like the most respectful tone per se Like he. You know him and I have had. Yes, but Dicks and whatever.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So, like I think that there is that too, but because of the way I was raised as a Korean American, like you said, like you and I argue a lot differently than like you and like grandma argued per se, like grandma argued per se, and so I think that I've gotten beaten a lot, yeah, and so I think I'm okay, necessarily, I think I'm okay with like breaking the tradition because, like, the type of culture that frames that book and why it's passed down through men is not necessarily something that has fully permeated my life and the way that it fully permeated, like grandpa's life I don't want to call it breaking.
Speaker 1:It's a modifying, because it's not like you're burning the book Exactly, you're maintaining it. Maybe it's in English, so again, modifying the tradition, it's not going to be in the old Chinese characters that I think traditionally are used in there. So but the issue is, as you said, would my parents even give me the book if they knew that I was not going to give it to Nick? They might be like we're I don't know out there.
Speaker 2:It's supposedly in the house. We don't actually know where it is.
Speaker 1:It is Well. I mean, they're older so they can't keep track of all that stuff, but I'm pretty sure I know where in the basement it's being hidden. But anyway, you know, we could do one of those national treasure type scavenger hunts. But I'm just saying there is precedent that they could cut meat out and then give it to rich. Who's the next son in line, who of course has only sons, so he couldn't none of them speak korean, by the way?
Speaker 1:so none, so they. So I think the funny thing is is that you are the most korean like um forward person in your generation, of the kids who are grown up, and yet you're the one who and this is why I'm talking about it benefits the least on many levels from being the most Korean. If you were the oldest son and you you know of the oldest son, there'd be so many advantages that you would have Like, literally everyone would have to be like bowing to you, using the honorifics all the time and all that. But since you're the oldest quote, daughter like the Korean tradition, like. That's why I ask because it benefits you the least. And yet you are the most knowledgeable about the Korean culture, the Korean language you know and you lean into it more than anyone else does.
Speaker 1:And yet, so that tension, as you said, is what amazes me sometimes. That, listen, I love the fact that you are proud for being Korean. I am very proud of the fact that you know as much Korean as you do. I'm very proud of the fact that you are really good about the Korean culture, better than anyone else that I know in my close circle, and yet there's tension for me because I personally rejected it because there was so much of it that when I was growing up I didn't find helpful for me. If anything, it was more of a hindrance, because then I would have to listen to my parents more, I'd have to follow what they wanted, I would have to do what they wanted to do, and most of a lot of what my life was was about pushing all of that away.
Speaker 2:I mean it's about context. You can even look at like transnational and transracial adoptees. South Korea I just read an article in the New York Times had like the most like and it also was like a totally messed up system of like adoption, you know, and like sending oh.
Speaker 1:Korean yeah, yeah, well, they got rid of all their baby, their girl babies.
Speaker 2:There's also a history of female infanticide in like China, for instance. Like, obviously, like. There is also that nuance and like it's. I feel like it's even more complicated for people you know Korean adoptees and white families of like who are you Korean and whatever.
Speaker 2:Yes, very, very complicated it's all about the context of which you live in and which you were born in, and, like, partially, that's why, like I at this point do not really care about if they give me the book or not, because I know that they know that if they give the book to like my cousins or Nick, there's a much higher chance that, like, the appreciation and the cultural awareness of the book's roots is going to be a lot less. And I know that they know that and I don't really. That's why, like, I'm like whatever, because, at the end of the day, like I'm not gonna like force them to give me a book. That's like not like a fight that I really care about or want to have.
Speaker 2:And I think that for me, being the only girl born on like your very male dominated side of the family, I'm I've done everything that I want to do and I've know, for instance, that, like I go to a great university and that I am, like you know, on the higher side of like smartness, on that, like whatever and things like that, like I think that me knowing that and being secure in that, I know that they know and I know that they've watched me grow up, I know that they've seen everything that I've done and so for me it's like a if you want to give it to them, like that's fine, like that's something that you would have, like that you can do and you can live, and you know, with that conscious decision and that's fine. Like I know that they know all this.
Speaker 1:I will this. I've never lived my life in accordance to what my parents wanted, because if they did, if I did, if that meant anything to me, the disappointment I know they felt that I went to Duke and I didn't go to Harvard or Princeton or Yale or one of the Ivies I could tell, because the minute I got into Columbia Med School that's all my father was speaking about was like that was redemptive, like OK, he went to Duke but he went to Columbia Med School. So I know how they feel. I will tell you this. I don't care what they think about the book, so I'll. I'm getting the book and I'm giving it to you, like there's no reason for me not to, because, but with the caveat that you have to maintain the tradition as modified. You have to continue the genealogy, you have to write it in English, you have to keep track of everybody's births, their names, their documents.
Speaker 2:Obviously we joke that I'm the one who's going to host all the cousin reunions.
Speaker 1:No, I understand that, obviously we joke that I'm the one who's going to host all the cousin reunions. No, I understand that, but but that would be my mandate to you. Is that that, like that tradition would have to be continued?
Speaker 2:The only difference is is that it doesn't and it shouldn't matter which gender it is who gets it, and and maintain that. I mean times change, you know. I mean like this is also a whole thing of time. As time passes, people change, like Duke itself has also changed as a school, you know, and it's prestige and it's now better than half the Ivies according, you know, according to a lot of rankings. And then you have, like Nick, who just got in and grandpa calls all really excited, really happy, really proud. He calls me every time. You, you know, Duke is playing in a basketball game and did you see the game? And oh my god, they're so good and I'm so proud that, like, two of my grandkids go to Duke.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, I mean like at times, where did he tell you to uh to apply at?
Speaker 2:times he like told me to re to Harvard. But I don't necessarily think that that means like the disappointment he felt when you went is he doesn't feel. I don't think he feels any disappointment that necessarily that we didn't go no, absolutely not.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just talking about me. Yeah, I know the disappointment with me, but that's why times change.
Speaker 2:Like there was disappointment when you went to duke, but then, when nick and I both got into duke, it was like oh my god yes and so I think, like times changing, people change and that's why, like I don't really care what they think per se, because I've, like they have to live with the facts, like they had grandpa had to live with the fact that Duke became a really awesome you know great school and he learned and whatever, and like that's just something that like I'm not gonna like necessarily fight against or wait for, because I just don't care enough so in the future, what is it?
Speaker 1:how do you find that balance as your fourth generation kids go forth? Is there anything that you're going to be telling them about how you grew up in terms of, like, what to do, what not to do?
Speaker 2:well, yeah, I think it's very important one to like have a close and like transparent relationship with your kids. Like I plan on being on as transparent with them as possible about like what my relationship with their grandparents. Like I plan on being on as transparent with them as possible about like what my relationship with their grandparents aka you guys are like like why some things annoy me, why some things don't. Like what heavy burdens or you know do I carry from my past and why is it like whatever? Like I plan on being very transparent about my kids because I think, being a kid, you understand like how irritating it can be sometimes to not know things or not hear that, and so that's obviously important to me, I mean have I not been transparent?
Speaker 2:no, I think you have and I think that's like why, like, I want to follow that in the sense, whereas when I see like you with, like your parents, like obviously, like it's very obvious that there was not as much conversation or transparency between you guys, yeah, and so what would you do different?
Speaker 1:like what would you tell them this is what my parents did for me that I'm not going to do for you? Like I want this to be different between us.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think that's a lot of more like that's not really cultural.
Speaker 2:I think that's more like personal oh okay, yeah like I mean, like I think, in terms of like the culture, I wouldn't necessarily do anything different, but it also again depends on who I marry. Like I feel like if you didn't marry mom, I don't really know, like you know, hypothetically I wouldn't be me anymore, but I don't really know, like if you would have sent your kids to korean school, because that was something that, like mom's mom, for you know, was a really big perpetuator of, like she was the one that enrolled me in korean school I would have wanted you to go to Korean school regardless, but most of the cultural tradition.
Speaker 2:That surprises me actually.
Speaker 1:Really why.
Speaker 2:I feel like you would not want to. I feel like you don't really care if we went to Korean school or not.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, I got benefit out of going to Korean Listen. Language acquisition of any form.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it helps develop a child.
Speaker 1:Right, and it's the same with music lessons, I think sports which we did all of those, yeah, so I would have leaned into all of that.
Speaker 1:um, I was totally okay with you guys dropping it, because you had to pick and choose your battles, and the battle to get you guys to go weekly to korean school on fridays or whenever it was friday nights was just like it was brutal and, like you said, the skill acquisition was not good, not because you guys weren't smart, but because the way they were teaching at these schools was not appropriate for you guys. They assumed that there was a certain level of Korean fluency in the household, which there usually was, because these were all, like you said, second generation kids whose parents had just come from Korea, so they were surrounded by Korean. But for you and Nick to come home and for us not to be speaking Korean around you guys like this, development of your language skills, like an hour a day a week at, or two hours a week at, language school, is just not going to be enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's why, like, for me, like Korean schools aren't off the table. I would very much. But I would also want to take from my experience and make it like a little bit more like efficient, if I'm being honest. Like, whether it's like instead getting like a tutor who like, understands like my kids' level, or that they're starting with of chinese immigrants they're a third generation chinese like just because if I don't marry a korean, they are not just korean and I think that is something else.
Speaker 2:Like if I married like someone from spain, they'd be a first you know, I mean like a first generation hispanic or whatever in america, like, and so I think I don't know what the right term is yeah, but like I think that's like a very different, and so it's like hard for me to say, because obviously, like, some things are not, are non-negotiable for me in the sense like, well, we need to, like it's not like we're never gonna eat Korean food, you know. Or like I would like them to have like a first birthday, like a tour, for instance, and whatever, but it's not necessarily like, oh, they're definitely going to be fluent in korean or they're definitely going to learn the language, or that's just something that I feel like is harder to plan, so it's just not as much of a priority for me I think for me, for you guys growing up, the touch, the cultural touch points, like first birthday, the was it?
Speaker 2:what is it Years?
Speaker 1:The 90-day one, where 100-day the 100-day one. Sorry, 100-day. So the 100-day one is where you throw the different things out onto the mat.
Speaker 2:No, that's the first birthday. Oh, is that the first birthday? 100-day birthday is just like, wow, like, because children used to die back then in Korea. Oh my God, it lived 100 days. Yeah, infant mortality was incredibly high for everyone back then in the day.
Speaker 1:So, at the year, throwing the different things out like the noodles and the money and the pencil, and having the baby reach for it to sort of tell you what their future fortune is going to be, I'm into all that.
Speaker 1:I'm into the New Year's Day know day celebration and we love Korean food yeah, I mean I think Korean, like yeah, that that should be another discussion at some point. Like culture, korean food I am, I love Korean food. I am not someone who has to eat Korean food every day, I think mom and I are yeah, who has to eat Korean food every day?
Speaker 1:I think mom and I are, yeah, korean stuff more than inside Korean stuff. But I can. I can navigate well enough, but I am the super whitey person and for all of my peers pretty much that's just the way it is. I mean me too. I feel like you navigate both worlds pretty well, things considered, um, I think you have to prove yourself.
Speaker 1:Like a lot of my duke friends, their first impression for me is very different than how we are now because once they get to know how much you actually know, then they're sort of like that adds another aspect of their knowledge yeah, my like one of my friends always is like I cannot believe you know that word she's like how do you know that word she's like how do you know that word Like, like things like that.
Speaker 2:And for me it's just words that they were never advanced words. It's just words that I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the first time he told me about seomeok I was like, oh yeah, that's not a word that I knew.
Speaker 2:Yeah, seomeok, there's like.
Speaker 1:What's seomeok Seomeok in Korea? I mean, there's also things like chimaek chicken and makju, which is like a very popular combination of chicken and beer in Korea. See, that's the thing I had had, chicken and beer, when I was growing up in med school, like we would go to.
Speaker 1:Fort Lee, but we never called it chimaek, like you guys are the ones who are making it cool with the language. Well, sash, I really appreciate the time that you spent. I think this is a very interesting topic, just because there's no right answer for any of it, and my perspective has been so colored by the way, I grew up probably in a bunch of negative ways, which actually slants me sort of anti-Korean in a lot of ways, but your perspective has been very positive and you've been able to sort of navigate itKorean in a lot of ways, but your perspective has been very, you know, positive and you've been able to sort of navigate it in a better way.
Speaker 2:Which is a testament, I think, to you and mom.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think mom is definitely way more Korean. Mom has been, yeah, very influential, I think, and I think without her influence you would never have gotten half sort of the positive influence about Korean culture.
Speaker 1:And it's her and her mom and her and her mother, uh, and. But I've always been the one who sort of and her too grounded in like, listen, we're Americans, we live in America, we live in America. Success is built on being an American, not like living in some sort of like idealized, like bubble where you have to, you know, and there's so many immigrant communities, just like that, whether you go to Newark, you know, with the Portuguese or Brazilian community, or in you know a Polish community or Korean or Chinese community, like there's way more that we have to do in terms of being successful than just sort of leaning into that.
Speaker 2:It's like code switching Like. I know we're wrapping up with this totally other topic, but it's like code switching Like you know how.
Speaker 1:What's code switching?
Speaker 2:Code switching is, like some people see it as a negative concept. A lot of immigrants and people of color see it as just like a way it's supposed to be. Like I'm kind of paraphrasing, but it basically is like when you switch how you speak and who you're with and obviously like I think that's why, for instance, like the Korea Finance Society has been really helpful because obviously, like being in, like you know the workplace, which is predominantly like white, for instance, whereas like being like with my Korean friends, you know at Duke, like I'm speaking very differently, like with the words I'm throwing around All right.
Speaker 1:Well, sure, yeah, and like that's kind of an example of code switching, I think that's also something that is another part of this.
Speaker 1:I think. To me it's more about being empathic. So, yeah, when I'm with working with someone or I'm interacting with someone, it really doesn't matter what, who I am or what where I've come from. I really want to feel or understand where that person's coming from. So someone looking at that might call it code switching, if what I'm doing, but what I'm really trying to do is just develop a connection and a bond to that person. And if that person happens to be someone who is super Italian or super Irish, like I know enough about these cultures and I try to learn enough that I can sort of connect on some level, like um, so I know what their background was like, how they might have grown up, like what might have been important to them, or their family growing up, yeah, and so I'm not like trying to be them, but I'm trying to connect with them that's why people like me, for instance, like immigrants, people of color, don't see it as a bad thing.
Speaker 2:They see it as like wanting to under eating and like building that connection because, like I said, like I have non, like I have non-korean friends, and like my relationships with them are just as strong because we bond. You know, we connected over something different whereas, like some of my korean friends, just as strong of a relationship too but that's probably, you know, some of the basis is like the cultural understanding and like that's just like you said, like being like valuing where people are from and their backgrounds. And that's why people some people say that like co-switching is not a bad thing.
Speaker 1:I mean it's funny because my best friends, if you had to ask me, would be the guys that I trained with in residency. One is Italian, italian American, one's Indian and one's Indian American, one's Chinese American, and all of us have our own cultural backgrounds. All of us have explored our own cultural heritages, gone back, visited our own different countries. We all have our own depths. All of them have a lot of depth to their character and their nature.
Speaker 1:I've seen them talk about post, discuss their ancestry and where they're from, but when we get together, none of that is in play. It's what our shared experiences were, our trial by fire, how we survived, what shaped our outlook. And so the depth that we have for our cultural heritage does inform us and make us more resilient in a lot of ways. But when we meet and connect with others, that's not necessarily something that people have to bring to the forefront, because that's not what's necessarily going to connect you with somebody else. And so I mean maybe I've done that to an extreme, some might say but on the other hand, I have felt like learning more about others and not necessarily putting my own self out in front has helped me more than hurt me, I guess.
Speaker 2:That's why I think everyone listening, whether you're like a parent or a child, or like a potential future parent, like I think it's very important to be transparent and let your kids know about, like, what has shaped you to be the way you are today, whether it's cultural and or, like you know, environmental, social, political, whatever, like I think that's why I place value on, like the, the generation, like I don't neglect, I'm like proud that I'm third generation Korean American and I think that's because I have a lot of appreciation and I'm very grateful for what you and mom both endured and also experienced. But I think if I didn't know that, like, my relationship with being like Korean American would be very, very different.
Speaker 1:Agreed, sasha. Thank you so much. That was an awesome conversation. I appreciate it and good luck this summer in Chicago. Thank you, I'm going to try to visit you as many times as I can. Yay, thank you.