Parenting During A Pandemic Featuring Dr. Anjali Roye

Parenting during a pandemic is hard, but right now we have no choice. In this episode, child psychologist Dr. Anjali Roye and I talk about the stresses children and parents are facing during the current Covid19/Coronavirus pandemic. We discuss common points of family tension and offer suggestions for how to deal with them. 

Dr. Anjali Roye is a clinical psychologist with expertise in the development and behavior of young children. After graduating with a doctorate from Pace University, she worked for Montefiore Medical Group and Albert Einstein College of Medicine, providing early childhood parent-child therapy, and integrated behavioral care within a pediatric setting. She currently runs her own solo practice focusing on providing psycho-educational evaluations and therapy to young children and their families. In her spare time, she loves working in her garden and knitting. You can learn more about her at www.amrpsyd.com.

Thanks so much for joining me today for A Therapist Takes Her Own Advice. If you have enjoyed what you’ve heard here, please subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. And tune in this Friday to our first guided meditation. If you have questions, comments or suggestions for future episodes go to my website, rebekahshackney.com and send a message through my contact page

To learn more about DBT group therapy with Rebekah Shackney LCSW, go to https://rebekahshackney.com/groups

Transcript

A Therapist Takes Her Own Advice, Season 1, Episode 2, Parenting During A Pandemic with Dr. Anjali Roye

Rebekah Shackney: 

Hi, I'm Rebekah Shackney. As a psychotherapist, I spend my days helping people manage their moods and meet their goals, but I often find it hard to practice what I preach. I tell my clients to pick their battles and be gentle with themselves and their children, but I'm no perfect mother. It's genuinely hard to keep a cool head in the heat of the moment when dealing with my own children, but like everyone else I'm trying to do better. This is a therapist takes her own advice.

Rebekah Shackney:

Of course normal parenting challenges are being intensely magnified by the stresses of Corona virus and sheltering in place today, child psychologist, Dr. Anjali, Roye, and I discuss parenting during a pandemic. Thank you for joining me, Dr. Roye.

Dr. Anjali Roye:

Oh, it's my pleasure. 

Rebekah Shackney: 

Tell me a little bit about yourself. 

Dr. Anjali Roye:

I am a child psychologist. I've been practicing for about 15 years. I spent most of my time in the Bronx at Montefiore medical center and Albert Einstein college of medicine, working with young children and their families, children with developmental disabilities, children that have been through foster care and training psychologists and pediatricians. And I now, as of last year, have my own practice close to home in Ossining where I work exclusively with preschool and elementary school children and their parents.

Rebekah Shackney:

What has quarantine been like at your house?

Dr. Anjali Roye:

Oh, very interesting. So I have two teenagers. I have a daughter who just turned 17. She's a junior and, I have a son who's 13, so they are home. In addition, my husband is also now running his architecture business out of our living room. It has been a lot of close family time. I definitely wish we had more space, but I think we're also fortunate that we've both been working through this. Our kids have been handling homeschooling pretty well. The one thing that, I mean with my daughter, I think she's a junior. And so this is the time where we're doing a lot of active college research and planning and, um, she's starting to write her essays, but we haven't really narrowed down the list of where she wants to apply cause we can't go and visit anywhere. 

Rebekah Shackney:

Right. 

Dr. Anjali Roye:

So when she was initially quite apprehensive of the whole process before the pandemic, um, and we actually engaged a college coach to help us through, um, as a typical teenager, she wasn't really open to what my husband and I were saying. So, um, having the coach through this has been incredibly helpful and she's really been taking it in stride. I think my, and I are much more worried about it then than she appears to be. And I, and I think it's going to work out, but that's been, that's been tough. My son is 13 and he's kind of down with this whole homeschooling thing. He sleeps in. He's very he's tech savvy. So he does like an hour or two of some stuff on the computer. And then he's like lounging around. The one  struggle I'm having with him now that things are starting to open up a little bit is that I think he's kind of gotten stuck in this kind of being home mentality. And I think there's some anxiety about kind of going out to see people. So, um, I mean he said to me the other day, I don't need to see my friends in person. I I've been texting them all along. I can just keep texting them. I'm like, okay. Right. So the whole idea of a face to face conversation, it's kind of like, we're old fashioned because we're talking about it and I'm shaking my head

Rebekah Shackney (03:54):

Yesterday. We had a social distance play date for my nine year old and it was so much fun and he enjoyed biking with his friends, but then he came home and he was so upset and angry. And then when I asked him if he wanted to talk, he burst into tears. After all of that was over, I asked him, you know, what was going on? And he said that it was so sad for him to have this moment of normalcy and then go back to the stress of social distancing. I think it was also just the built up stress and anxiety from so many months of being in quarantine. But I think it's so important for us to when our kids do have those bursts of emotion to not fight back and to freak out, but to hold them and comfort them and validate the way they're feeling because it's so understandable. And he gave me permission to tell that story and I hope that he hopes that other kids and other parents can benefit from it. Um, but it also, it was, it was helpful for him to have that emotional release and he feels better today. So, and we're going to have more social distance play dates.

Dr. Anjali Roye (05:07):

Yeah. Hopefully I'm glad he's feeling better and hopefully they'll start to feel more normal.

Rebekah Shackney (05:13):

And what kinds of challenges have you had with your own clients or what have you seen there?

Dr. Anjali Roye (05:19):

It's been hard. And I think particularly because I work with kids, my youngest, like five year olds up to like age 10, I've switched to doing tele-health exclusively and had to close my office. I mainly do play therapy and art therapy, but it's hard to do those things over an online platform. So there's much more talking and young kids don't always want to talk. Um, I've had kids flat out and like end the call, shut the computer down, like mute themselves. Um, but I've had, and I've had kids that were kind of running around the room and couldn't kind of settle to end focus in order to, you know, engage. I'm kind of a Luddite. So I'm not, you know, it took me a while to feel comfortable with the technology. And then I did find some ways to play like chess and checkers together or Madlibs and you know, 20 questions.

Dr. Anjali Roye (06:18):

And I think those things have made it feel a little bit more comfortable, but I have some kids that are really struggling right now. I mean, I think the academic piece is hard for a lot for young kids in general, but kids that have any kind of a learning challenge and then also like missing your friends, missing your teachers, you know, not getting and for younger kids, texting and FaceTiming, don't quite cut it. So there's that. And then sibling rivalry is also an issue, right? Like if you're home, the only playmate you have is your older brother and you have like a conflictual relationship with them. It's like a recipe for disaster. I mean, I think there are some kids who whole I've seen benefit from kind of removing from some of the stresses of day to day school, you know, not having to wake up so early. Um, having more flexibility in terms of what, when you get your work done, you know, getting to go outside and run around for like an hour or two in the middle of the day, if that's what your body needs, which you know, is like better than the 15 minutes of recess that some kids are getting, you don't have to eat your lunch at 10 o'clock in the morning. So there are some silver linings, but in general, it's not been an easy time

Rebekah Shackney (07:34):

Sure. So what do you worry about everybody is anxious right now? What is normal anxiety and what should we be worried about with our kids?

Dr. Anjali Roye (07:43):

I think that's a good point. Cause there's actually an amount of anxiety that helps kids learn coping skills. Um, but then there's a point to which the anxiety starts to become detrimental. So I worry when you see major changes in like your child's sleeping habits or eating habits, especially kids that are afraid to fall asleep or waking up in the middle of the night or having nightmares kids that are either losing their appetite or overeating, um, kids that start to complain of stomach aches or headaches. I think the other thing I've been seeing is things that would normally be the source of a minor point of tension. So for example, bedtime bath time, you know, there may use typically be a little bit of back and forth, but it used to be manageable and now it becomes a trigger for a major battle and a meltdown and crying. And so that small trigger becomes kind of a spark for a much bigger explosion. Um, that's concerning, that's another kind of red flag I would say to look, look out for.

Rebekah Shackney (08:54):

And if we are seeing those types of red flags, what would you recommend?

Dr. Anjali Roye (08:59):

What I would suggest? And what I try to do at home is to be honest with my kids about that, this is a stressful time for everybody and it's understandable and it's okay for them to feel stressed, um, or to feel sad that they're missing their school friends. I have kids that are worried about going outside. That all makes sense right now and it's okay to have those feelings. And then I would also talk to kids about, here are some things that, you know, as a parent, you do when you're feeling stressed, right? So I at home like to do a lot of arts and crafts and things like that. And I've tried to get my children involved in doing those kinds of projects with me, or, you know, digging a hole in the backyard. And I think kind of one of the great things about, you know, there is a great thing, like a silver lining is that we all have a lot more family time together and doing family things together can help kids distract from upset moods. There, we can talk more about that a little bit later. Cause I know that also comes with a lot of fighting and, and all that.

Rebekah Shackney (10:02):

Right. And, and you just saw my children, uh, sparring in the front yard, getting their aggression out, which is maybe not a bad thing. They were practicing karate and they were sparring with each other and maybe being a little more aggressive than they should have been safely with supervision. But, um,

Dr. Anjali Roye (10:20):

But it's a good outlet for those feelings, right? Like, like we've been playing trivial pursuit and we have major arguments over whether the answers are right or wrong or the cards are incorrect. Like, but it's like, I feel like it's a healthy way to deal, you know, like deal with your anger and your stress and all those feelings and kind of get it out.

Rebekah Shackney (10:45):

Right? No, I, I like that. I am always hearing people ask about skills. I need skills, teach them, what do I do? How do I cope? Um, so what are skills that we can give parents? What are skills we can give kids?

Dr. Anjali Roye (10:58):

I think the number one skill is learning to take a break when you need one. So like sometimes parents, when something's going on and you feel like your kids are fighting or your child doesn't want to go take a bath and you feel your blood start to boil. The best thing that you can do in that moment is just step out for a second. Yeah. It doesn't really matter in the long term, if your kid takes a bath now or 10 minutes from now, but you will have a much better time and your relationship will be much better if you just take a breather. 

Rebekah Shackney (11:33):

And I know that in my house, sometimes we do the tag team parenting or a year out I'm in, you go take a break, but it's so hard to take a break. It's so hard to step out of the situation. It's really hard to do that without feeling shame and judged. And Oh God, I did cross that line.

Dr. Anjali Roye (11:50):

Well, I think too, also parents feel like and myself as a parent, right? You feel a little bit like if I step out and take a break, they're winning this battle and they, you know, I need to be in charge. They can't win. Um, so what I try to think about is like, first of all, they're not winning altogether. Cause you're going to come back when you're calm. Right. And you'll be much more effective, right? Their behavior. Like if your kids are all having a meltdown, they will respond much more to you when you meet them and you're calm, you can be calming to them.

Rebekah Shackney (12:25):

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Anjali Roye (12:27):

And the final thing is, think longterm goals, right? Even if you don't win this battle, you're going to win the war.

Rebekah Shackney (12:34):

Right. And you know what, I, one of the things that I like to keep in my mind and it's not always there, um, I do get frustrated, but I like to keep in mind that this is about building a relationship, not about, I am the one in control and you are my minions who will obey me, but these are people who I hope, you know, I'm going to know you all your life. I want to build a relationship with them. And of course, there's, I'm not saying I'm my kid's best friend. We do have to set boundaries and there are rules. But ultimately, and especially when we're in that emotional place, it's about trying to do what's most effective to maintain the relationship.

Dr. Anjali Roye (13:13):

You know what that actually makes me think about, which I think is something really important related to COVID and children homeschooling. 

Rebekah Shackney:

 Gosh. Oh boy. 

Dr. Anjali Roye: 

It is not easy. Um, I mean, first of all, most of the younger children that I have in my practice and elementary school are finding it very difficult to learn through a screen. Right. So, so the way that we're teaching has changed and, but not necessarily in a way that's working from them. Right. And so I've seen where there's a lot of pushback and, and then what happens is I've seen parents, then they start to get frustrated and angry and are really focused on the bottom line of we have to get X, Y, and Z done. And how do I make my kid get that done?

Rebekah Shackney (14:08):

Right. Right. So what do we do? I mean, I feel like that, I feel like, Oh my God, my kid's brain is going to turn to mush. And, and to be honest, my kid is in kindergarten when I know that he's going to go to first grade, but then I think this is prime learning time. He should be soaking things up and you know, all of that. And so what, what do I do

Dr. Anjali Roye (14:30):

First of all, yes, this is prime learning time. And there's so much that kids can learn just through day to day life. And you know, like you're baking and you're cooking and you're measuring and counting and you're going outside. And you know, as you're walking, you might like notice kind of all the nature that's around us. And, you know, kids, I think are also self-driven learner. So, you know, they'll go through phases where they're really into dinosaurs and you might read a hundred books about dinosaurs or birds, or there's a lot the kids can learn and it doesn't have to be a packet that's coming from school.

Rebekah Shackney (15:12):

I'm just wondering, you know, at what point do we let it go?

Dr. Anjali Roye (15:16):

Yeah. I think, and that's when, when you started talking about, it's more about the relationship, I think you let it go when it starts to get to the point where it feels like it's damaging your relationship, right? Like if you're having constant fighting, like arguments and fights over schoolwork and kids are in tears, maybe it's time to say, you know what, like let's step back a little bit. Um, you can still certainly get them to try it. I recommend sometimes setting like a time limit. Like let's work on this for 15 minutes and see what you're able to complete. And then if there's frustration, we take a break or we say, you know what we're done for the day. But certainly the most important thing is that kids are happy. They're playing, they're engaged in, you know, like interactions. We'll have plenty of time, you know, if there are temporary lags and I'm not even sure there will be temporary lags in terms of those academic skills, we will have plenty of time to make them up.

Rebekah Shackney (16:20):

That actually helps a lot because that's something that I know a lot of parents are nervous about and really, you know, it's, it's causing additional stress. Um, I've also talked to a lot of parents who just feel like they're not doing a good job, that they're just failing their, their kids. And I think, and especially single parents who don't have that person to bounce things off of, um, just feel like they're, you know, they're literally living in a vacuum and just seeing their kids fighting and refusing and not doing any chores. And it's just, I mean, what would you say to somebody who's struggling with that?

Dr. Anjali Roye (16:56):

I would say we're all just trying to deal with the best we can and it's not easy at all. And the most important thing to do is to, to be kind to yourself and, um, you know, this is a temporary situation and it's gonna pass. And the other thing I think too, is that, you know, it's the same advice. You give a mom with a newborn that it's impossible to take care of a newborn and keep a perfectly clean house and be on top of the laundry and cook healthy dinners. Something's got to give. And I think this is another one of those times. And especially if you're a single parent, who's trying to work from home and you have your kids, there's just too many balls in the air and there's not enough hours in the day. So something's got to give, but the most important thing is taking care of yourself first.

Rebekah Shackney (17:47):

You put your own mask on first.

Dr. Anjali Roye (17:48):

Yes. Yes. Everything. Else will sort itself out. And in six months or a year from now, knock on wood. Things will start to feel a little bit more normal, but hopefully let's not beat ourselves up in a process.

Rebekah Shackney (18:01):

So along those lines, I'm also thinking about screen time. And I don't want to know, but I know my kids do it way too much, you know? And I'm, I'm a working mom. I know you're a working mom and I know that, um, my husband's down in the basement doing his thing and I am in my office seeing clients and then I'll come out and, you know, and I'll see three people on screens and I'm, ah, I just makes me feel like, again, like I am failing, I suck at this. So, um…

Dr. Anjali Roye (18:37):

I mean, I would say, I mean, I have two teenagers, so all they're learning is on screens. And then as soon as they're done with their learning, they pick up another screen and they were playing video games or they're, I dunno, watching YouTube videos about Broadway theater.

Rebekah Shackney (18:54):

The YouTube videos. Oh my goodness.

Dr. Anjali Roye (18:58):

Yeah. I, I mean, this is a battle. I think our culture has been fighting for a long time and it's kind of coming to a head. I know there's like the technical rules about screen time that the American Academy of Pediatrics puts out. I think it's really gotta be an individual thing, you know, it's I think, I think you got to look at number one. How does screen time affect your child? Right. If you have a child that can do a little bit of screen time and then, you know, might get off a screen and go and play with some toys or go run around, outside, or read a book and there's, and they're getting their, their schoolwork and I'm doing air quotes done. That's okay. If you have someone who wants to stay on for six hours a day and is edgy all the time when they're not on it and is not doing other kinds of activities, that's someone who needs some more kind of, we need to reign in the amount of time they're using screens. Um, well, and then on the parents too, it's like sometimes, especially when you have little kids, you got to take a shower, right? You have to cook some dinner and it's okay to, to have them on a screen. If it helps you take care of yourself a little bit more

Rebekah Shackney (20:14):

Good. No, that's really good. That's very helpful. It's helpful because I know that if a, if a mom or a dad is stressed out, because they aren't even getting that second to themselves, or can't just focus on work without worrying about what their kids are doing, then they are going to transmit that anxiety to the rest of the family. And so I think whatever you can do to reduce the overall stress level in the household and be gentle with ourselves, we so have to be gentle with ourselves. It's hard. It's hard right now because there's so much stress and so much judgment, especially at the beginning of this, there was all of that. Um, we're going to have a schedule and we're going to be up at this time and Oh my gosh. And boom, and we're going to do crafts and we're going to learn a language and write a book and whatever. And I don't know, and I'm sitting here thinking I, I finished that, uh, Netflix show. Does that count for anything? I'm not sure. I don't know. Um, but yeah, no, it's, it's really hard to, to just get through a day, let alone get through the day, doing something spectacular.

Dr. Anjali Roye (21:23):

Yeah. Yeah. I'm chuckling because there's no way I could ever try to implement a schedule in my house. Like they would all do it. Even if I try to make a list, I get a whole lot of backtalk about mom and her lists. She's so she's such a nerd. She's trying to be so organized.

Rebekah Shackney (21:42):

So, I mean, I think we talked about with, with the little kids, where should we draw the line? Where should we be concerned? But with the older kids, where should we draw the line? When do we worry?

Dr. Anjali Roye (21:53):

I mean, you probably are better to answer this one than I am, but I think with the older kids, um, I'm always concerned when kids are in middle school and high school and they're really struggling to complete their schoolwork and the kids who are kind of in danger of failing classes or going to summer school and things like that. Or they're kind of totally become turned off to anything related to school. Now it's understandable right now with all this online school that, you know, there's a lot of kids who kind of do the bare minimum and then that's that definitely something to just keep an eye on how that is going. And then I would also say kids for social isolating or kids who, you know, kids won't talk to you, it's normal for kids to not, you know, they may not necessarily want to open up and tell you everything about their lives, but you should be able to have a reasonable conversation with your child. You know, if it's kind of attitude left and right. All day long, then, you know, you might want to kind of probe a little bit further. I dunno. What do you think?

Rebekah Shackney (22:55):

I think you're right. I think the thing to be really concerned about is any major change. If you notice a change in their sleep habit and their appetite in their just general behavior, are they suddenly hanging out with different people? Are they suddenly hanging out with no one, are they suddenly lying, stealing, not having the same motivation that they used to have? Did they, are they doing the things they are? Are they still doing the things that they like to do?

Dr. Anjali Roye (23:21):

Yeah. That's a big one. Like, are they still playing the guitar? You know?

Rebekah Shackney (23:24):

Yeah. And I don't think it hurts to reach out if you're concerned, you know, you can always call your pediatrician, call a therapist. If you need to, it doesn't hurt to ask these questions. And sometimes it is the parent's anxiety that needs to be addressed. And not the child's not, maybe the child is fine and the parent is worried or

Dr. Anjali Roye (23:45):

Yes, I think we can kind of consider at least in New York that, you know, the past two months that we've been home as a pretty stressful experience for everybody. And so, you know, we're all reacting in different ways. You know, I think the important thing that I'd like to stress is that, you know, therapists are here to support children and their parents through stressful times. Right? Often there's a stigma, right? That if you go to talk to one of us, that there must be something wrong with you and it doesn't have to be that way. We're all just trying to cope the best that we can. And sometimes, you know, we have different tricks or trades or it's just another person to listen to, or talk to this, not your teenager in your house.

Rebekah Shackney (24:28):

Right. And you know, one of the things I found is that sometimes, you know, kids won't want to listen to what their parents say. Yeah. But if we say it, it's just coming from somebody different and it's easier to hear. Yeah. And that's okay. And it's normal and it doesn't mean you're failing as a parent. I really actually, I think it's important for every kid to have a grownup that they can talk to. Who's not their parent. So whether it's a close family member or friend, um, or a therapist, I think it's really important. It helps so much because there are going to be those moments when you're in an argument with your parents and you feel like nobody gets you and nobody cares about you. And if you have somebody you can reach out to, in those moments, it makes all the difference.

Dr. Anjali Roye (25:14):

You know, it reminds me of something else too. I think we can't underestimate because teachers, you know, in school personnel are also those, those people, they see our kids every day and they're really important in our kids' lives. And, and our kids are not seeing them in the same way right now. You know, we had, uh, that parade recently, the teachers kind of drove around the neighborhood and you got to wave and it was kind of emotional.

Rebekah Shackney (25:42):

I mean, and that's the thing, that's the most important thing right now, we are all trying to negotiate the balance between our physical safety and our mental safety. My older son recently had a birthday and we decided to have a social distance birthday party in the front yard and

Dr. Anjali Roye (26:01):

Love that

Rebekah Shackney (26:03):

Well, and, and you know, it was a little nerve wracking. I was really scared, but it worked out fine and they were really compliant with what they needed to do. For mental health, it was one of the best things they could have done. One of the kids had been particularly anxious about going outside and doing things. And he hadn't been particularly interested in doing online socializing. And so this was really the first time he had been connecting with his friends in a long time. His mother said he, she hasn't seen him smile like that in months.

Dr. Anjali Roye (26:37):

Oh…

Rebekah Shackney (26:37):

So it really made a difference. We have to figure out the balance that works for us. You know, as these restrictions become lifted, what's safe and comfortable for us. And what's reasonable. While we also work to preserve our mental health.

Dr. Anjali Roye (26:53):

I was thinking too, like for those college graduations, for some kids, they may not have wanted a huge ceremony and a big party and things like that. They might be fine with a small, socially distance driveway gets together, right? Like this actually gives us an opportunity to be more flexible to where kids are.

Rebekah Shackney (27:14):

I love that silver lining. What are some other silver linings you've had in your life for and your practice?

Dr. Anjali Roye (27:21):

You know, I feel like we, in a lot of ways, you know, we've been hanging out a lot more. We don't have a big house. So we do end up spending a lot of family time together, particularly in the evenings. Um, and as much as there are squabbles, there also are like some there's some good debates. Um, and then there's some, like, you know, we've been playing games together and just having like nice kind of family time. 

Rebekah Shackney (27:46):

That's great. 

Dr. Anjali Roye (27:47):

Which you don't often get with a 17 year old and a 13 year old. 

Rebekah Shackney (27:50): 

No, you don't. 

Dr. Anjali Roye (27:52):

It's been interesting. I've actually been able to get my son into doing arts and crafts with me. Cause I think he's just like looking for something to do. And, but I'm like seizing the moment, you know, like whatever I can do to hang on before, you know, they, they fly the nest one day.

Rebekah Shackney (28:09):

Thank you so much, dr. Anjali Roy for coming in and talking to me today. 

Dr. Anjali Roye (28:20):

Happy to do it. 

Rebekah Shackney’s Outro (28:21):

And thank you for listening today to a therapist takes her own advice. Please hit the subscribe button so you won't miss an episode. Future episodes include more interviews and stories about parenting, managing mental health, selfcare and a monthly guided meditation. If you have questions or topics you're interested in, please let me know.  Go to my website: Rebekahshackney.com and send me a message through my contact page.