Anxiety Knitting with Rachael Joyce

It’s an anxious time for everyone right now and there’s no one-size-fits- way for dealing with it. In this episode of A Therapist Takes Her Own Advice, my friend, Rachael Joyce, came by to talk about what she does to manage her stress: Knitting. Sometimes we don't even realize how therapeutic every day activities can be.

Rachael Joyce is a TV news producer, a mom, a wife and an avid knitter.

Thanks so much for joining me today for A Therapist Takes Her Own Advice. If you have enjoyed what you’ve heard here, please subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. And tune in this Friday to our first guided meditation. If you have questions, comments or suggestions for future episodes go to my website, rebekahshackney.com and send a message through my contact page

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Transcript

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Rebekah Shackney (00:07):

Hi, I'm Rebekah Shackney. Anxiety is something that plagues us all...especially now. I teach my clients to set up simple routines to get them through, but finding time for selfcare is hard, even for me, but I'm trying to do better. This is a therapist takes her own advice.

Rebekah Shackney (00:33):

In the last few weeks, because I've been talking to a lot of friends and family across the country. I've noticed so many people are really suffering with anxiety, and it's no wonder with all that's going on right now. Then a local friend told me what she does when she's feeling stressed. She knits it's not as unusual as it sounds. Research shows that working with your hands and doing something you enjoy can be helpful at reducing stress and anxiety today. Today my friend, Rachel Joyce, talks to me about anxiety knitting. Thank you so much for being here today. Rachel

Rachael Joyce (01:07):

Anytime, it's nice to be in your basement. You're the first human I've seen other than my family and quite a while. 

Rebekah Shackney (01:13):
 Wow. I'm honored. Tell me about your anxiety. 

 Rachael Joyce (01:16):
 Well, being anxious runs in my family. I've had anxiety since I was a kid, probably ebbs and flows with what's going on, but, uh, you know, sometimes I'm okay at dealing with it. And sometimes I'm not. I think currently as, at this weird time in our world and in my life, I'm actually much better at it than when I was younger. And I mean, some of that just comes with age, but, um, I think I'm able to take a better perspective on what is worthy of anxiety and what is not and what I can control and what I can't. And so, when you were talking about this podcast and I jokingly said, Oh, you should interview me about, uh, anxiety knitting.  Um, I really said it like a joke, and you were like, Oh no, I want to know about that. I'm like, all right. So then, uh, I mean being a news producer, I have to be prepared for stuff. And that's just, I mean, maybe that's just me also, but like I have to do, I have to do some back research and kind of figure out like, okay, well, am I crazy to think that these things are related? That the fact that I love to knit when I'm upset? So I kinda just started doing some research and I was like, Oh, maybe it's not crazy. There is, it seems like there's some, some reasoning behind, you know, how much I knit and when I'm upset and, and all that stuff. 

Rebekah Shackney (02:33):
 So tell me, how does the anxiety manifest for you? Just like, for me, for you.

Rachael Joyce (02:37):
So like, for me, I'm someone who just kinda overthinks things, and likes to be in control. And when I feel out of control, whether out of control of the world or my own life or something, you know, just, just that I can't, uh, I can't fix, I start to like loop my thoughts that I just can't get out of. Uh, I just can't get out of, worrying, like I can't, I either go over the thought over and over, or, you know, it re leads me down a rabbit hole that I just go down, I'll start thinking like, well, what's the worst thing that could happen in this situation. And then as though, well, if I figured out the solution to that, it would be okay, would be fine, but it's not, and it's not going to happen. So, um, I mean, that's kind of me and like, I think for me, like, it really took a long time to kind of just acknowledge that like, yeah, it's, it's okay to need help.

Rebekah Shackney (03:27):
You know, it's interesting. We do a lot of thinking when we're feeling something and we try to think our way out of a problem or out of an emotion. And you can't think your way out of an emotion, you have to feel your way out of an emotion, but it feels like you're doing something, you're getting something done. If you're, if your mind is racing and thinking and okay. If I figure this out, it'll be okay. And really what happens is that just begets more and more anxiety. It's like, we've tricked ourselves into thinking we're doing something good, but it doesn't really help.

Rachael Joyce (04:01):
Right. And it, I mean, you absolutely have that feeling of like, well, I'm going to fix it and I'm going to, I'm going to make this better. And kind of all that extra brain energy, like for me, it feels like it's physical energy that I should be working off, but I'm, I'm doing it mentally. And that's horrible. Just makes it worse. I should get up and jog or something, but,

Rebekah Shackney (04:25):
Well, so that's an interesting point. There you can deal with anxiety, um, in two different ways you can lean into it or you can back away from it. So the leaning into it would be the getting up in jogging, going for a walk, cleaning the kitchen. My kitchen is never so clean is when I'm really anxious or really agitated. Um, doesn't happen very often. Um, so, so you can lean into it and really utilize that energy, that emotional, physical energy, or you can back away from it going from the fight or flight anxiety place to the rest and digest

Rachael Joyce (05:05):
Is that like the meditation side of is that like dealing with it through meditation,

Rebekah Shackney (05:09):
It can be, I mean, it can be dealing with it through meditation, through deep breathing, through guided muscle relaxation. Yeah.

Rachael Joyce (05:19):
Which we do every single night at bedtime. I love that we have our shared meditation that we do in bed as we're going to fall asleep. And we, we say we're like, okay, is it time for the lady as though she's going to join us in bed? And we pull her up on Alex's phone and she, that's how we fall asleep. 

Rebekah Shackney (05:39):
That's fantastic. And you know, it really does get you into that relaxed state. And the thing is that the more you practice it, the more your mind is used to it. It's reshaping your mind too. Okay. Now we're relaxing. We're falling asleep. So tell me about knitting.

Rachael Joyce (05:57):
So, I mean, I learned to knit when I was, uh, I guess in college or so, um, you know, taught by a close family friend and I liked it. I thought it was fun and it was something to do. Um, so like I knitted on it, but you know, I knit on and off from college and through my twenties. And then I stopped when I had a baby and I ended up having my carpal tunnel and couldn't, and then I had surgery and I started and, and the surgeon told me like, ah, you're not going to go back to that. You're going to make it worse, give up. You're not going to knit again. Wow. And I, you know, at the time I was like, Oh, that's really disappointing. It's something I enjoy. And then two years ago, or so I had this like big traumatic thing in my life.

Rachael Joyce (06:44):
And I was walking in a store. I was walking in a Walmart randomly enough and I passed the yard and section. And it was like, I just like zombie walked over and bought cheap needles and really cheap yarn. And within a day had like retaught myself, how to knit. And I was in this kind of haze of, you know, a life moment and I couldn't process what was going on, but I could do this thing and I could, I could pick up this, you know, cheap ass yarn and these annoying needles. And like, you know, in some sort of trance I could kind of, I realized that I could calm my brain down. Wow. And, uh, so I started again and that's it. And for some reason it felt completely different. So like I had, I, it took a little while to remember the motions, but for me, I was doing it for a very different reason. I wasn't like 22 knitting, you know, my boss, a pair of baby booties, or I wasn't making a friend a hat. It was, um, it was like purely for me. And it was purely like, I'm going to do this, this thing to calm my brain, but that's just me. Like, I know that that's not, you know, that

Rebekah Shackney (07:58):
You mean you're not solving the whole world's problem. Not no,

Rachael Joyce (08:02):
For me, I have not figured out the world's problems. I wish I had.

Rebekah Shackney (08:05):
Wow. You know, it's interesting. You say that almost as if you're apologizing for like having found my own cure or, I mean your own thing, your own thing, the thing, see, there's no cure for anxiety, no cure. It is something we have to have. If we don't have anxiety, we would all just sit and lay on the couch and watch Netflix all day long. We would never pay our bills or go to work or do our, you know, do the schoolwork that our children need to do. Um, we would not do those things that we need to get done. So we need some anxiety. It's motivating us. What we don't need is that level of anxiety that paralyzes us. 

Rachael Joyce (08:48):
Exactly. That's sort of that, that feeling of being, completely frozen from making any sort of action at all,

Rebekah Shackney (08:55):
You have to learn how to have it in your life and have it not take over your life. So I think it's really important that you have found something.

Rachael Joyce (09:06):
Yeah. I mean, for me it feels, I certainly doesn't take away all the anxiety, but it feels like it's just taking off the top edge. Like, it's that, you know, it's that feeling of like that, having a drink that first cocktail where like just takes the edge off and you're, you're good. You're, you know, I think about like that awkward first date where you're like, I'm just going to have a drink and I'm just going to, I'm just going to feel a little better for me. It's sort of like, it takes the edge off and I can do other things like I can, it's something to do with my hands that keeps it's enough thought that it's taking the top level of worry away for me.

Rebekah Shackney (09:43):
Excellent. That's fantastic. That's really fantastic that you have that. And you know, what's funny is that a lot of therapists use things like that to, um, help their patients get deeper or, or help them just tolerate being in the room with their emotions. So I have Play-doh and fidgets and all kinds of things for, especially my younger clients to play with. But even older clients, even adults, you know, it gives you something to do. And it just takes a little of the intensity away so that you can get to that place and, and utilize the time more effectively, tolerate the moment better. So tell me about how do you deal with mistakes?

Rachael Joyce (10:30):
So, okay. So I know that there are different, um, there are different ways of thinking about mistakes. I have read that, um, back in Victorian times, people would like knit mistakes intentionally into their work because it would either let the, let the soul out, or it would, some people thought it showed that they weren't prideful. I completely see that. And I've still read things today where people are like, Oh, you, you have to embrace the mistakes. That if you, you know, if you slip a stitch and something happens, you have to embrace it. Cause there are mistakes in life and it teaches us to accept them and move on. And I think that is beautiful. And I hate it so much. So like for me, if I'm knitting along and I realized that two or three rows ago, something up and I'm like, ah, I will rip it out.

Rachael Joyce (11:21):
And it makes me super happy to do that because I mean, I it's. So it's, it's so clear to see what it means in my own life that like, you can't go back and fix the mistakes of your youth, but I can fix my knitting and I can rip out three rows and, or I can rip out a whole project and it doesn't make me feel bad that like, Ugh, what about that? You know, Oh, I know it's awesome. It's like, I can actually go back and feel like I made a you know, I repaired something, or I like made a concrete change for the better.

Rebekah Shackney (11:51):
Wow. Wow.

Rachael Joyce (11:53):
And like, my husband will often comment. He'd be like, why he'll look at me and be like, Oh gosh, he'll see me just like ripping it something. Cause like, that's how it feels when you it's really satisfying to pull out knitting. Cause it pops as you go along and he'll look at me and he's like, you worked on that all week. I'm like, yeah, it was a mistake. It's all right. I'm like, especially now during quarantine, what else do I have to do? I don't care. 

Rebekah Shackney (12:18):
You know, you're right, right. No, but you know, I'm a knitter too. And that, that dropped stitch. Oh, you just look at it. It's not just that it's a mistake that, so the whole thing is imperfect. It's a mistake that can ruin everything else because it can continue to unravel

Rachael Joyce (12:35):
Exactly that like, and isn't that, um, a metaphor for life that like that one thing you could like, just dwell on how that one mistake maybe impacted your entire career, your whole life, every miss anyways. So that's, for me, there's something really great about like a tangible way to fix something and move on. And um, it just makes me feel better.

Rebekah Shackney (12:59):
Um, and I love the idea that this is about the process. And so there's an impermanence to it that it's not about here. I have made you this thing or, you know, whatever. It's I have been able to quell my anxiety and tolerate quarantine or whatever's happening in your life better because I have been knitting,

Rachael Joyce (13:22):
I'm doing this thing. And right now, like I'm not really knitting for anyone specifically. And maybe that, yeah. I don't know how that fits in. I'm sure it does right now. They're like, I'm knitting for me really. I'm picking out colors that I like, not that I want to keep anything that I'm knitting, but I I'm picking out things that like, make me feel good. Like everything I picking out right now is all rainbows. And I don't know if that's because it's pride month or because it's just rainbows make me happy right now, but I am, I'm getting like really ugly stuff and I love it. Um, and so then I'm, I'm not really picturing who I'm going to give stuff to. I'm just thinking about the action and there, isn't the pressure of like, Oh, this has to be done. This has to, you know, I'm making 18 bags and if somebody wants one, I'll pass it off into the world.

Rebekah Shackney (14:09):
Right. And that's an interesting point because if there is pressure right behind what you have to do, it changes the whole mindset. It's a different thing when it's a meditative repetitive action. Um, it's, uh, it affects your mind and body differently than if it's something you've got to do and you've got to get it done, you know?

Rachael Joyce (14:31):
Yeah. I mean, my current state, my, my, my natural, um, w what would you call it? My habitat currently is sitting in this glider, swing outside, looking at the bird, feeder, knitting. And I mean, the world just goes on around me. Um, my kid plays my husband putters in the yard, and I just sit there like, uh, in a trance, knitting, looking at the birds, listening to a podcast and like, it's how I'm coping. 

Rebekah Shackney (15:05):
So, I want to talk a little bit more about what physiologically the, the knitting does for you.

Rachael Joyce (15:12):
Yeah. So like, I'll tell you, and then I'm really curious to hear kind of like what it means. It's like a feels like meditating to me that like, when I knit, if you're not a knitter, there are different stitches you do. And some are easy and some are hard. And like, I will choose what I want to work on, depending on what I feel like I'm like, I can do something really simple and it, my, you know, I can hear the needles clink and I can, you know, my hands kind of know what to do. And I, in the very, very back of my mind, I'm counting stitches. So I'm kind of, it's just numbing everything just a little bit. And it's, it just feels kind of soothing. Like I've always joked with my friends that I was like, no, that's, it's like anxiety knitting. That's what I'm, I'm doing this to fix myself. I really hadn't looked into if that was true. It was just my own theory.

Rebekah Shackney (16:06):
Yeah. I, so I want to just correct something. You said, you felt like you were numbing out. You're not numbing out. It's a way for your mind and body to process that anxiety. So when we push anxiety to the back burner, when we numb out, when we, um, you know,  anxiety shop or do whatever those sort of maladaptive behaviors are, that is just kind of pushing it down so that we're going to have to revisit it on another, at another time. So what you're actually doing is allowing your body you're quelling it just enough so that you can process it. And that's what meditation does for us. It gives you something to focus on, and then you notice that your mind drifts away, and then you bring yourself back to the breath, to the knitting, to the rosary beads, and then your mind drifts away again. And when your mind drifts away, that's your mind and body processing that anxiety and letting it go. So it's much different than numbing. Interesting. Yeah.

Rachael Joyce (17:17):
Yeah. It's not. So it's not like having that cocktail. It really is.

Rebekah Shackney (17:22):
No, I mean, it definitely triggers the sympathetic nervous system in a similar way, but it's not like having a cocktail because when you have a cocktail that doesn't get rid of the anxiety, it just puts it off for another time.

Rachael Joyce (17:38):
That's very interesting. Yeah. And if I take an hour and I knit and I sit and I let my brain kind of just, I mean, I'm still thinking about what's going on, but it doesn't feel as bad, but if I take an hour and I, it's also taking an hour just for me. Yeah. Um, I feel better. Yeah.

Rebekah Shackney (17:58):
See, and that's the thing when you have, when you take a Xanax or take a cocktail often when it wears off, you get more anxious. So, and then you need a little more the next time and a little more the next time. And that's why those are not sustainable ways of, of, um, managing your anxiety. I'm not saying, you know, you can never have a glass of wine or you certainly, if you're prescribed medications, take them as per your doctor's orders. But I'm saying those are, those are simply to get you from one moment to the next. They're not really reducing your overall anxiety.

Rachael Joyce (18:39):
Interesting. Yeah, no, I mean, it makes total sense. Um,

Rebekah Shackney (18:45):
So what happens is, um, I think it's the sound, it's the physically doing something with your hands and even the counting in the back of your head, that's triggering your sympathetic nervous system, which is the opposite of the fight or flight impulse that we have with anxiety. So when that is triggered for you, that sends the message to your body, to your mind that whatever you're anxious about is not really dangerous. You know, it's like your logical self is saying it's okay. You're going to be okay, this isn't, you're not in danger. So that's why we, one of the reasons we have anxiety when we have severe anxiety, you know, it's the, it's the, there's a tiger coming at us and do we freeze? Do we run

Rachael Joyce (19:37):
Right? You get that adrenaline. Cause you've got to do something like you've got to have a physical response

Rebekah Shackney (19:42):
Indeed. And what actually happens is your breath goes into your chest. It becomes shallow. And your adrenaline starts pumping and your digestive system shuts down. You know, the blood goes to your extremities and you are ready to either fight or run and what you're telling your mind and body, when you start to knit and you hear that sound is it's okay, I'm not in danger. I got this. And over time it re it reduces your overall anxiety, but certainly in the moment you feel better.

Rachael Joyce (20:19):
That's really interesting. Yeah. I, I mean, some of it does feel like a little bit of is the physicality of, you know, the adrenaline coming out that like, okay, well, I've got this, I've got to work off something that like, I've got a little bit of that extra hand energy. Um, and so, okay, well, it starts with that and that's how I kind of get into it. And then the adrenaline comes and like, I'm able to quickly turn to something that's not destructive and work off a little bit of that energy. And then it does feel like, I don't know, the hypnotist, you know, counting back from 10. Yes. And then I'm okay. 

Rebekah Shackney (21.02):
Yes, that's fantastic. And you've been doing it so long that you don't even have to think about it. Your mind just goes there. So, and it's, you know, another thing to do, you know, the deep breathing and I know that's so cliché and every, Oh, take some deep breaths. 

Rachel Joyce (21.20): 
I know, but it matters. It does. 

Rebekah Shackney (21.22):
It really does. That you can take with you. So where you, you may not have your knitting needles all the time. You can just focus on your breath, deepen your breath, and your you're basically telling your body again. It's okay. You're not in danger. And you notice that as you keep doing it, you feel better.

And I'll tell you, I, I was at a, I saw a physical therapist a few months ago and she taught me some breathing exercises that I had never done. And, and, you know, it's funny is I teach these all the time, but I don't do them. And so I was doing these, these breathing exercises with her and they worked, it works, the stuff we tell you, the stuff you're doing. It, it works. 

Rachel Joyce (22.15): 
Yeah. But I mean, it's, I don't know that makes normal people feel so good to hear that, like, you know, it works and you don't always do it. Right. That's sort of that, like, we all have to be reminded of like, Hey, you have the skills to help yourself. Yes. Because I, you know, I'm, I know that not every behavior is healthy. Um, but that sort of, I dunno, that feeling of like, you actually do have the tools. Yes. You just have to remember to use them.

Rebekah Shackney (22:45):
Right. Yes. And that's the thing we forget. We totally forget. And I forget you forget, we all forget to use and do the things that we know we should be doing…the things that work. Um, and that's why I'm here because, and that's why you go to therapy to be reminded. I don't go to you. Don't go to therapy to, to have somebody tell you what to do. You know, what to do? You have some, you go to therapy to be reminded and to, to hopefully, I mean, another thing that helps is talking and getting it out, and all of those thoughts that are swirling around in your head are a lot worse when they're in your head. And if you can get them out and talk about them, you know, you're going to feel better. 

Rachael Joyce (23:35):
It's, it's so true that like, having, having that buddy that like, if you, I do have a therapist, but like, if you don't have a therapist, like having that buddy that you say like, here's, I'm feeling, is that crazy? And of course, the person's going to say no I feel the same way. And it just helps.

Rebekah Shackney (23:50):
It helps. It helps. It helps. And you know what? The other thing is, again, there's a physiological thing that happens when you talk, you are releasing dopamine and oxytocin and it feels good.

Rachael Joyce (24:04):
And what are we doing right now? We are isolating away from everyone. We know, and we don't have our friends. We don't, you know, we're not getting together. We're not meeting at a coffee shop. And it just feels like this is so much harder because we all feel alone. Right.

Rebekah Shackney (24:18):
Right. And you're not alone. We're not alone. We're actually all here in this together. And if you're struggling, please reach out for therapy. We are here and we will help you. And it really can make a difference. I know a lot of people are like, how can talking about this help. It does. It really, really does. Totally. So totally. You mentioned earlier that, um, you and Alex do the meditation before you go to sleep. I just want to talk about that for a second and how people can use that at home to really, because that's something that you can just do.

Rachael Joyce (25:00):
Yeah. Uh, I, you know, and I it's, I really never meditated until this till we all stuck got stuck at home. So, um, I, I, uh, use a workout app and they happen to have some meditation stuff on there. 

Rebekah Shackney (25:16):
How long did it take before you started to feel a difference?

Rachael Joyce (25:21):
I would say like the first three or four times I did it, I felt dumb. Okay. I liked it. I was like, okay, well that was calming. I was fine. Yeah. But, you know, you kind of get over the cheesiness of it. Um, but then I realized that I was like, okay, well, you know, even if it feels cheesy, it's working. Yeah. So what's the difference. Like there's no one around judging me for oming or, or breathing like this. And it's funny I had been doing it and I know my husband had seen me doing this before bed, as he would brush his teeth. And I would like have my little meditation tape playing. And for me, like having, listening to something, I use a guided meditation. I actually have to, I don't think I can get in that state. Maybe not yet.

Rachael Joyce (26:14):
At least without someone walking me through it. And, um, you know, he was cool with it. And then his therapist recommended he started. And so then I was like, alright, well, we're going to do this together. And so it became our weird nighttime routine. And I think the fact that, like we don't judge each other, we both fall asleep really well. It's great. And I'm somewhat, I have a lot of sleep issues and, um, I really like doing this more than I like taking a pill. I like more than I, I, it, for me it works and it, for an, I like having the same guided meditation every night. Cause I don't like to think about what's coming next. It's like, I know it it's comforting. It's like having the same movie on. Wow. I don't know. But that's just me. I don't know how

Rebekah Shackney (27:02):
No, I think that's fantastic. Um, I actually have had clients, I had one client a few years ago who had to have half a bottle of wine to fall asleep every night. And then she started meditating and was able to fall asleep without any wine. And it was so great. Um, and then you wake up refreshed and not that hungover groggy thing that happens because you don't get good sleep when you've been drinking. But what I like about what you said is that you did it the first time and it was weird. You did it the second time, the third time. And then you were like it works.

Rachael Joyce (27:42):
Do you like, who cares? If it's weird? Just it's great. Actually, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, I actually, I did one and it was fine, but I, I really started doing it with my son because he was anxious about everything that was going on. And I was like, you know what, we're going to do this together. And I, I was doing it for him, but I was the one getting the benefit. I think, I don't think he did like it. And he, we will still do it together. But, um, I think maybe that's just as a parent, you're always trying to help someone else. And I was like, Oh, we're going to do this for him. And in the end I was like, Oh, I kinda, I really like this. This is good.

Rebekah Shackney (28:23):
Great. And so, one of the things that I'm doing with this podcast is creating guided meditations and uh, the first one comes out on Friday.

Rachael Joyce (28:35. 
Is that the one that I did? I liked it a lot. 

Rebekah Shackney (28:40):
Yes. We're going to take an imaginary vacation. So please tune in for that. 

Rachael Joyce (29:45):
That's great. 

Rebekah Shackney (28:47):
So, thank you so much for that. Joining me today, Rachel Joyce.

Rachael Joyce (29:50):
Anytime, thank you so much for having me.

Rebekah Shackney (28:50):
Knitting isn't the only thing that can help drawing, cooking, gardening, puzzles, any activity that occupies your mind and your hands can give you a similar meditative effect. Of course, none of this is a replacement for therapy. If you're really struggling, please reach out to a licensed professional. We're here to help. Call your doctor, your insurance company or contact me at Rebekahshackney.com.

Thanks, so much for joining me today for A Therapist Takes Her Own Advice. If you have enjoyed what you’ve heard here, please subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. And tune in this Friday to our first guided meditation. If you have questions, comments or suggestions for future episodes Go to my website, rebekahshackney.com and send a message through my contact page.