In this weeks episode Marcia Sloman, a professional organizer, talks to me about how she helps transform spaces from out of control to under control and how she improves lives in the process.
Marcia Sloman formed her business Under Control and started organizing professionally in 1992. Her first career of 17 years was in computer programming and managing other software developers. Armed with an MBA in Finance and career tests demonstrating excellence in organizing, Under Control was the perfect segue to a profession of helping individuals organize their lives.
ATTHOA Episode 5, Marcia Sloman on Organizing
Rebekah Shackney (00:09):
I'm Rebekah Shackney. As a psychotherapist, I spend my days talking to people about the value of creating a comfortably organized space. Meanwhile, I struggle with keeping my own house in order, but like everyone else I'm trying to do better. This is a therapist takes her own advice.
Rebekah Shackney (00:31):
Today, I am speaking with Marcia Sloman, a professional organizer whose kind nonjudgmental nature could make anyone feel good about getting organized. Welcome Marcia Sloman. Thank you so much for being here today.
Marcia Sloman (00:31):
Thank you for inviting me.
Rebekah Shackney (00:09):
My pleasure. So why don't you tell me about yourself and what you do?
Um, let's see. As a professional organizer, I do a lot of things, but of course they all come under the category of organizing. So I help people organize their stuff in their homes, in their offices, in their businesses, um, their, their, their personal stuff. Sometimes it's simply a closet. Sometimes it's might not sound so simple, but a kitchen, a kitchen is kind of like the main hub of the house, um, in offices. Uh, there are a lot of even today, paper files, digital files. Um, I have, um, a technology background, so digital files don't are not fearful for me to dive into. So I organize a lot of different things for different people.
Rebekah Shackney (00:09):
Interesting. I like that. So do you do, now that we are on, uh, we are doing things virtually, are you organizing virtually?
Yes, I am working with people over the phone, over Skype, over zoom. Um, those are sessions together where I'm more guiding them and maybe motivating them, their clients that I've worked with for years. So we have a rapport, I know what their stuff looks like. I know what their rooms look like. Um, I, I have a very visual memory, so, uh, I know where their things are.
Rebekah Shackney (00:09):
I know these aren't new people who you're going in to see these are people who you have a relationship with.
Yes, yes. During, during this pandemic. Yes. I have worked with strangers, um, over the internet or by phone, by email, by text, helping them that usually involves helping them plan, uh, organize their spaces and involves pictures. So organizing takes so many different forms and can be virtual as well as in place.
Rebekah Shackney (00:09):
Interesting. So let's take a step back and tell me how you start with someone. What do you do? What's the process? What is your philosophy? What is the process?
Marcia Sloman (03:02):
Uh, my process is to ask a lot of questions. Um, because I came from a technology background, we designed computer systems way back then, sorry, in the seventies, I'm dating myself. Um, but we, we designed computer systems by asking the people who were going to use the computer systems, the clients, uh, what they needed, what they're comfortable with, what kind of information did they use on a regular basis? Those are the same questions that I ask my clients, helping them organize. So when it's a space or, or paper file or digital file, I ask a lot of questions about how they use the stuff, whatever the stuff is, whatever it is, um, how they use it, how they need to access it, how important it is, how, how much is there, what's the mass, whether they're looking to downsize it, um, or just organize what they have. So there's a lot of questions involved before we actually touch anything.
Rebekah Shackney (04:08):
Interesting. Interesting. I like that. So you're planning out the process before you even get started with anything. Um, so when, when you actually get in there, do you get pushback? You know, so the person said, I want to do this. I want to, um, organize my kitchen or whatever. And Jacob pushback from them once they've created the plan,
Marcia Sloman (04:30):
It's funny that you use the word pushback. I don't, I don't see pushback. Um, my, my focus is on the person wanting, organizing. I work with a lot of organized people. They know what they want. They, they know actually what they need. I don't push any particular philosophy on them. I don't push any particular order. Nobody's going to order their home or their office, the way I order mine. I can suggest those things that I find helpful. But part of the questioning that I do when I work with my clients initially and ongoing is how they like things. I look at the space that they have and I get to know their personality and their needs by seeing what they have. Sometimes they want to change that. Um, but often times they need to be able to find their things after I leave.
Rebekah Shackney (00:09):
Sure. So that absolutely.
So the systems that I put together in place for them, the organizing systems I put in place for them are, are, uh, legacies for them. It's, it's, it's, it's they have to live with it. So, um, I don't see it as pushback. I ask questions as an organizer, they ask me questions also.
So how do you work with families, couples, Um, where they have different needs and different philosophies?
Marcia Sloman (06:04):
Um, I find that a lot, um, different personalities compliment each other. You can have a very left brain person married to a very right brain person. And one of the things that you kinda like have to figure out is what the boundaries are in their spaces. What are their shared spaces? When I work with, um, a family, for instance, that shares a kitchen and shares cooking activities in the kitchen, the family has to participate in the activities because everybody needs to know where things are. And typically when we're done, we leave everything labeled so that everybody knows where to put things back when they're done with the kitchen. So, you know, we kind of, let's say a kitchen, we organize, um, everything has a category, so there's the snacks category. And it might be, you may have a cabinet for salty snacks versus a cabinet for first sweet snacks. So the personalities that are going to be using the kitchen, I'm just using the kitchen as an example of any particular room in the house where a shared space everybody's thoughts have to be taken into consideration because everyone has to own it.
Rebekah Shackney (07:22):
Hmm. Yeah. That's actually, I, that's a conflict that we have in our house a lot. I will, we have a teenager who empties the dishwasher and then my husband David will go to cook and he can't find a certain utensil that he needs to do something. And, and that it creates tension and irritation.
Marcia Sloman (07:44):
Yes. That's why you, you know, having a little powwow, um, to talk about priorities and needs is really important, especially in a shared space. So for instance, utensils have a place and your husband should be able to find the utensils. If he's going to be cooking or whoever's cooking, should be able to find the utensils, which is why I mentioned labeling. Um, oftentimes if we make a change or if we decide this goes here, we actually labeled the space so that everybody kind of has to get used to it. And sometimes in an individual space, you know, where there's a boundary, and this is your space sometimes to get used to that, you need, that label does say, Oh yeah, this is where it goes at the end of the day. So if there's a utensil drawer, I like to put the label in a place where it's not necessarily visible to the public. So sometimes I put it in the inner lip of the drawer. That way all you need to do is pull out the door a little bit and you say, Oh, these are barbecue utensils. Or these are baking utensils. Um, the, it depends upon the size of the kitchen also. Sure. As sometimes there's too many utensils for the space to fit into. So you kinda like have to figure out those priorities. Do I have to let go of it or store, you know, the, the infrequently used utensils in another place. So these are more questions to ask that powwow of shared P people in a shared space.
Rebekah Shackney (09:20):
And what do you do when there's a disagreement? When one person thinks there are too many things and we need to get rid of some things and the other person says they need this stuff.
Marcia Sloman (09:30):
Well, I'm not a mediator.
Rebekah Shackney (09:34):
And that's when you call me yes, a couples therapist, individual.
Marcia Sloman (09:39):
But, um, but usually if you have this discussion about priorities, then there there's, I don't know, you know, for 27 years I've been doing this and, and I've, I've not, I actually haven't experienced battles.
Rebekah Shackney (09:56):
That's good to know. That's, I'm glad that that's, you know, put that on your website. Um, so I want to tell you for me, I get overwhelmed by other people's stuff. I don't know if other people feel this way, but especially my kids’ stuff. And they have so many toys and so many stuffed animals and, and there's all they, and they're constantly wanting more and more and more, and it makes me crazy. I think I become so dysregulated when I even just look at my kids' rooms, that I can't even begin to do anything with it. And I wonder what, where would you start there?
Uh, my youngest customer several years ago, he's now in his thirties. Um, but my youngest customer was a seven year old. And, uh, how he became my customer was I was working with his mom, organizing her office papers, and he came into the room and he said, mommy, what are you doing? And, and he and I, and she said, um, uh, Marcia is helping me organize my office. And he thinks, he thinks he thinks he thinks, and he says, can Marcia help me organize my room?
I love that.
And what an invitation, what an honor. So when we were done, we went up to his room. And as you say, there were dinosaurs all over there and connects. I don't even know if they sell, connects anymore. These building, building toys, um, splattered over there and balls and everything was on the floor that was homework pie, homework, or papers piled on the desk. He did have a desk area and it was piled on the desk. And there was there wasn't order that I could see.
sounds like one of my children's rooms.
Marcia Sloman (10:43
So I asked him about how he'd like, um, he didn't, he obviously invited me because he didn't like what he had. And I asked him, how would he like these things? And he said, I want to get to my dinosaurs when I want to get to my dinosaurs. And I don't want to, I don't want it mixed up with my connects, my building blocks. Okay. He knew exactly what he needed and my personal experience with seven year olds or 97 year olds and everything in between every one, sorry, in between is they really know and pointing to my gut, I, that they know, really know exactly what they have needs. They know what their needs are. And all I had to do was ask, and his mom stood at the doorway like, Oh, wow. And this is a bright, this is a bright boy. He's now a bright man. Um, so as you can see, I do keeping cut whether I'm working with them or not. I do keep in contact with my customers for decades. I love them because we have a way, you know, we formed a bond, we have a relationship. So, so it, sometimes it's just, as we started talking earlier, it's just about asking the questions and thinking it's a thought process, and everybody's got that in their head.
So I'll tell you when I first met you, I don't even know how many years, I guess it was like five and a half years ago when my now six year old was a little baby. Um, I wanted to hire you. I wanted to hire you. So I came to my husband, David, uh, my producer and I, I said, David, I want to, I met this woman. Her name is Marcia. She's an organizer. I want her services. I want to hire her. And he said, no, he said, we don't need it. We don't need it. We, I tried to organize this house when we first moved in here. I don't remember. Do you want to speak for yourself, David? I don't know.
David Shackney (14:15):
Well, I mean, she's already said that she's not a mediator, so I don't want to open up a can of worms that, that she's not prepared for. But, um, I will say that, uh, one person in a family of five wanting to be organized is not enough. You know, everybody needs to kind of commit to be on board for the whole thing. And that's, that's where I think we've kind of lost where I've lost interest in even really trying, because I had set up the kitchen the way I liked it. I have a lot of utensils. I have basically for places where they will go, there's the, you know, the, a list which go in the drawer, right? To my, to the right of the stove, where everything is, is at my fingertips. There's the, even more like the wooden spoons and stuff that sit in a, a jar on the countertop for the things that I need to have available immediately. I have the barbecue tools and the kind of B list tools on another drawer. And then there's like the deep storage for things that we only use once in a while. And I can, I feel like that's a great system. However, no one else either doesn't know what's an, a list or what's a B list. That's part of it. Uh, he, my son will empty the dishwasher and just throw anything anywhere, especially if he's mad at us. He'll just, just put anything whenever he wants. Uh, and so sorry. So I wind up while, you know, I'm trying to cook something and there's a pancake that's burning on the stove and I want, and the special that I'm using, isn't doing the job. And I want my fish turner specifically. I want that spatula. And I go to where it's supposed to be, and it's not there. And I go to the B list and it's not there. And it's to go to the gr and it's not there. And now I'm like, okay, is it in the dishwasher? Is it now? There's just too many possibilities of where it can be. And, uh, so this is where the frustration is, is, is that we all kind of have to be on the same page for it to work. And, you know, if we're going to hire somebody to do it, we gotta make sure that everyone's committed to the solution.
Marcia Sloman (16:21):
So, so maybe in your case, in your kitchen, you do label the a A you put an a on the tools. That's, you know, that's not invasive. It's, it's not, uh, disruptive. It's not visually unappealing. You can either with a Sharpie, but I, I, my experience is even Sharpies wash off with a plastic label maker. You could put an A or a, B or a D for deep storage on each of your utensils, because in your family, utensils are a critical instrument. So in every family is different, as I mentioned. So you asked me, do you actually label the utensils in your case? Maybe yes, because you have different levels of utensils.
Rebekah Shackney (17:23):
but I think that, and what I will say about that is, I mean, yes, maybe when we first moved in here, David organized things and had them the way he wanted them. I was busy during that time. I had a baby who was still nursing, and I was not participating so much. I did participate, but I wasn't, he was the lead in the unpacking and putting things in places. And thank God. I mean, I'm happy. I was happy about that. Um, but now I keep mentioning, I want to do this. I want to hire you. I want to do this. And he keeps giving me the pushback of it's going to just go right back to the way it was. I don't want to pay for something that's just gonna un become undone so quickly.
David Shackney (18:00):
And, and, and here's, here's the other problem that I think that we've had in the house is that we have a lot of junk drawers. You know, we have a lot of catch, all catch, all spots that drive me bananas. And they weren't like that when we first moved in. But of course, within six months, uh, you know, there's things out on the counter and people are coming over. So people just grab stuff. And when I say people, I mean, Rebekah, uh, grabs stuff and shoves it in a drawer. And so after about three or four of those, that drawer organization just shot. And, you know, we can have a fight about it. We can say, I can say, hey, that's, that drawer was meant to be for cloth napkins. And now it's got Sharpies and magic markers and scissors, and somebody watch, why is that? And then she gets upset that I'm attacking her. And then it becomes a whole thing. And it's like, you know, what, why even bother why even try it? Where it kind of came down to,
Rebekah Shackney (19:00):
I think that the most important thing is that we both want the same things. I'm sorry, did you?
David Shackney (19:04):
No, no, that's fine. Yeah. We both gave up,
Marcia Sloman (19:07):
Well, you know, honestly, I think most people like rules. I do think most people like rules. So, uh, as an example, you have multiple junk chores. That's fabulous that you have the space to have multiple junctures, but you can identify what type of junk goes into each particular drawer. So, okay, one drawer was really made for napkins. Did napkins move to a closet? Did napkins move to a cabinet napkins? Must've gone someplace.
David Shackney (19:37):
That's a whole other issue.
Rebekah Shackney (19:39):
So, so, so, so you can define your water. So to speak junk. If, uh, one drawer is catchall, you know, the clear the counter drawer, you know, somebody is coming over and you do a one fell swoop. Everything goes into that junk chore to be sorted out another time. One of those is sufficient. And then maybe once a month, once a quarter, or once every two months or whatever that junk drawer gets cleaned out. And it's a project. And if it's multiple families items, belonging to multiple people, um, then everybody has to participate with, oh, I've been looking for that is in the junk drawer. Right. So everybody has to participate in the one fell swoop, junk drawer. Whereas there's other junk, like in the kitchen, a scotch tape. Yeah. Um, so there's an adhesives category. So maybe one drawer gets dedicated to adhesives, glues, scotch tape, staples, staplers, things that bond things together. So if you think of the category, you can have CA you know, category junk of like things together many, many, many years ago before your time Sesame street had this fabulous song. Um, so many great things learned on Sesame street and the song went, one of these things is not like the other. Okay. So you know that, so we do know that song. So you can do the same thing in your drawers and have categories for each drawer.
Rebekah Shackney (21:12):
No, I mean, and the thing is ultimately we both want those things. And the reason that it's become so frustrating is we're busy. And we don't think about ne you know, wanting to organize until we can't find the thing we need to use in that moment. And then, and it's, and it, it, for me, it's overwhelming. It is overwhelming. And David will talk about having organized everything. And if I knew where things went, I would put them there, but I do not. I don't remember. Um, and so I'm happy to do it again. I want to do it again.
Marcia Sloman (21:50):
So everybody has different skill sets. Everybody's good at something. Um, your wonderful therapists, you you're, you've got DBT down. You're, you're, you're embracing you, you, you, you work with your clients. David's a fabulous producer. He has a skillset. You don't have, you have skillsets. He doesn't have your boys have different skill sets that as they're growing up, they may surprise you. Um, and they're still learning. You're still learning. I, I, you know, my 90 year old clients still learning, so we're all learning at different stages. Uh, but we also have to acknowledge that we're good at certain things. And somebody else may not be so good at that. So when I, uh, work with my clients where a spouse or a significant other, or a child doesn't want to do it, the, uh, the most important thing is their empathetical to the other family members who needs that service. Um, for instance, one of my clients, uh, it was a comical conversation. Um, but she wants to be able to convince her spouse and this isn't you, she, she wanted to be able to convince her spouse that, uh, they needed my services. And, um, the mother in the house said to the dad in the house, you hire people to do the things that you're not good at. I'm not good at organizing. I want to work with Marcia for a session to learn how to do this, uh, project. And it's like, all of a sudden the light bulb went off and, and he said, Oh, is that all it is? It's like, he was thinking that I was going to be a crutch. Um, I was, um, uh, I wasn't going to be helpful. You know, I I've, I've heard some horror stories about, you know, other services where somebody comes in, they have their own agenda and poof, they walk out and that's not what you wanted. It could be in any,
Rebekah Shackney (24:19):
You can never find the scissors again.
Marcia Sloman (24:11):Yes, yes.
Rebekah Shackney (24:19):
There's somewhere. But we have no idea where
Marcia Sloman (
Yes, but we ha I mean, we all acknowledge that we're really good at some things, and others are better.
Rebekah Shackney (24:25):
I am not good at organizing. I am horrible at it yet. You there's so much to learn and I want to learn so badly, but I honestly, for me, I get overwhelmed and I don't know where to start. And then I start, and then there's the other person's stuff, or I'm going to get to this later. And then it just, I get overwhelmed.
Marcia Sloman (24:50):
Uh, organizing is also about setting boundaries. I had one client. She was like, Oh my God, why didn't I think of that? Well, you didn't. And I made a suggestion. Her teenage son just had clothes strewn all over the, all over the room, never went beyond his doorway. I had clothes strewn all over the room. And I just said, are they clean? Or are they dirty? And she said, I, I think they're dirty. I said, then get him a laundry basket. And so she did no time investment in this. It was one simple question. And, uh, uh, a month later she called me and, uh, we did no other projects together, by the way, this was a phone conversation. And, uh, about a month later, she said it worked. I said, what, what worked? You know, I talked to a lot of people, well, what worked? She said the laundry basket. I said, he's putting his dirty clothes in the laundry basket. She said, yes, there's no more lather of clothes all over the room.
Rebekah Shackney (26:00):
Oh, wow. And you know, what's really funny about that is that I, I have a lot, I work with a lot of parents and I will hear, you know, all this list of things that they're worried about with their kid or that bother them about their teenager. And then they always say, and their room's a mess. So now I'm going to ask them that question. I'm going to say, so, so there's clothes all over the floor. Yes. Are they clean or dirty? And then I'm going to, you know, then I'm going to send them to you when you deal with the rest of them. No, but it's so funny. I mean, because it is normal for a teenager's room to be messy, and it's not pathological, and it's not indicative of how you raised them or your failings as a parent, which I find that. And I think that goes to a lot of the stuff we're talking about. It feels as if we're feeling we're failing, we’re unorganized, we don't know where things are. I get I'm, I'm embarrassed. I don't know my, my kid asked me where the tape is and I'm like, I know we have tape. I don't know where it is. Yeah,
Marcia Sloman (27:09):
No. So the answer is, if it was put away, it's in the right.
Rebekah Shackney (27:13):
I want to know where that place is. I want to find out where that place is.
Marcia Sloman (27:18):
Yeah. So the question is, where would you put it? Some of my customers are, are very funny. They, um, uh, I like to, you know, give you solutions and set you free. Um, so after we've worked together for a session or a project or whatever, um, I get a lot of feedback from my customers and, and they say, um, whenever I wonder where to put stuff, I say, what would Marsha do?
I love that.
And it's such a compliment. I mean, I do love it. Um, so I, I just try to impress upon people, the questions to ask yourself, where would you look for it?
Rebekah Shackney (28:02):
Okay. No, I mean, for me right now, just hearing these questions in general, it's, it's very overwhelming, but as, I mean, you are so easy to talk to. And so nonjudgmental that I feel like people would have an easy time getting to those places where they can figure out where things go and tell me, what do they get? I mean, I know that it's important to know where your stuff is, but tell me about other, how does organizing transform people?
Marcia Sloman (28:32):
Well, I think after we've finished a project together, um, everyone feels a sense of freedom. First of all, you know, freedom from anxiety, freedom from mess, and, you know, um, mess by the way, it doesn't necessarily convert into neat. Everybody's different. I've worked with a lot of artists who their spaces are organized after we have completed organizing their studio, it's organized, but a stranger coming in and go, Oh my God, what a mess. This is not to them. So, you know, there's that fine line between how you want your things to be and how you want it to be projected. But I think they feel a sense of freedom. Um, and they, uh, have a sense of control, which is why I named my company in 1992 under control. I was fishing around for a name and I didn't want to name my company, Marcia Sloman. It just wasn't me. I wanted a name. And I said to a friend of mine, how would you feel after you've worked with me?
I love that.
Marcia Sloman (29:48):
And they said, under control, I said, that's it! The name of my company under control. And it stuck for me. That was nice.
Rebekah Shackney (30:00):
Nice. That's beautiful. You know, it's funny. I, I like what you said about how someone's, um, organization looks different than someone else's where, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean neat. And when I was growing up, my mother had hired a, a person to come and help clean our house. And I, as a kid kept my books alphabetized, but every Wednesday I would come home from school and all my books would be lined up by size. So my order alphabetizing my books, um, looked messy to her and she needed to put them in what looked neat to her. Yes. Um, but it was organized to me. Yes. And so I think that's very interesting. So it's very personal.
Marcia Sloman (30:47):
It's always personal. And, and maybe when you were growing up, you might have had the thought, or if you had had the thought of maybe putting a little label on your bookshelf, a to C and then the next shelf D to G and then the next time she might've gotten it,
Rebekah Shackney (31:05):
Maybe. And I just put them back every week and she would put them back every week. It was, it didn't work out very well. Um, but it's okay. It's all right. Is there anything that I didn't touch on that you think is important to talk about?
Marcia Sloman (31:18):
A lot of people call me because they think they have a clutter situation, or because they're moving to a smaller space. And so they're downsizing, um, or I'll call it right-sizing for their stage in life or for the next step in life. They may be changing jobs. And so, um, when you're in the thick of things, kind of like now COVID-19, we're all in the thick of things. We kind of like, can't stay difficult to make decisions. It's difficult to see what, what your needs are. Um, so, and that's why when we first began speaking, it's all about asking yourself a lot of questions, whether I'm there or not, what would Marcia do or not? Um, it's, it's really important when we're organizing to just kinda like take a step back, look at the details in your life. Um, one of my favorite poets when I was growing up was Emily Dickinson and I can't quote the exact quote, but she said something like, um, uh, if you take care of the smaller things in life, the big things kind of like put themselves together. So whether it's decluttering or rightsizing or downsizing, um, it's just important to think about the little things. And what's important to you. Sometimes all I discuss with people are their priorities. I never touch a thing when I'm working with phone clients or Skype, I can't touch anything. Right. So we'd discuss priorities, time management. That's a big thing when organizing, because there's a time investment in organizing. So organizing, isn't always about the stuff it's about your priorities and about kind of managing the time to do the things that you have, the priorities that you, where are your priorities fit in a Stephen Covey and in his, in his book, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. He stresses in his book that it's not about. I always get this one confused, prioritizing your schedule or scheduling your priorities. It's not about prioritizing your schedule. You know, everybody looks at their calendar and they try to prioritize their schedule. It's about scheduling your priorities, taking a step back, looking at what your priorities are, and then figuring out how they fit into your day, into your week, into your month, into your year.
Rebekah Shackney (34:04):
And, you know, it's funny, I do that with my clients. I’m with my DBT clients and talking to them about what their values are and helping them get back in touch with whatever their values are and are they living a life that is reflective of those values. And I think it's so important to review that. And I like that what you do also coincides so nicely. So I guess, I guess what I'm wondering is, for instance, when I meant, I've talked to a lot of people about this podcast, and I mentioned I was going to be speaking to you. And every person that I told said, Oh, I want to, I can't wait for that one. I really need to organize myself. And I wonder what that is, what, what, what is that need that we all feel like we need to be organizing? And so many of us feel we're failing it.
Marcia Sloman (34:57):
A couple of months ago when the weather, uh, pandemic started, um, someone wrote an article in the Huffington post about cleaning and organizing and how many people are diving into cleaning and organizing, um, to, to kinda like help themselves ground cleaning and organizing two very different activities. Um, our, our grounding, again, there's that sense of control, um, cleaning, you know, you, you know, a clean space may be an inspiring space, a neat space, maybe inspiring space, but then again for the artist, a messy place might be a little bit more inspiring. Um, so I think the organizing aspect, especially during times of stress, kind of gives us a little bit of grounding.
Rebekah Shackney (35:59):
So if someone wanted to get in touch with you, how would they do that?
Marcia Sloman (36:02):
Uh, I have a website, um, Undercontrolorganizing.com that has my phone number, my email on it. Um, my, my, um, um, very accessible, um, I give my cell phone. I want people to be able to reach me whether they are hiring me or not. I want, I want to be reachable. Um, and sometimes I converse in an email with someone and then they don't need to hire me because I could just pass along some information. Um, I, I'm definitely accessible.
Rebekah Shackney (36:37):
Thank you so much Marcia Sloman for coming in today. I really appreciate it.
Marcia Sloman (36:42):
Thank you so much for having me, Rebekah.
And thank you for listening today to a therapist takes her own advice. If you have enjoyed what you've heard here, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Future episodes include more interviews and stories about parenting managing mental health, selfcare, and a monthly guided meditation. If you have questions or topics you're interested in, please let me know, go to my website, rebekahshackney.com and send me a message through my contact page.