Financial Empathy: What it Means and How to Show it

In this episode, cohosts, Rebecca Wiggins, and Dr. Mary Bell Carlson discuss the importance of financial empathy and today's current events. This week's guest, Dr. Michael Thomas is an AFC®, with a Ph.D. in Financial Planning from the University of Georgia, and is now a lecturer at the University of Georgia. He also has his own virtual Financial Counseling & Coaching business - Modom Solutions.

Dr. Thomas takes us through his experience with financial empathy, the power of listening, and how we can learn to incorporate these not only into our professional careers but also into the communities where we work at serve at such a needed time. We unpack a lot in this episode and are looking forward to your thoughts and insights. Share them with us at AFCPE.org and on social media using #realmoneyrealexperts.

*Show Notes*
02:04 About Dr. Michael Thomas
12:33 What is financial empathy
18:47 How to apply financial empathy in your practice
28:04 Current events discussion
35:27 How to get ignite change in your community
38:45 Your Two Cents
43:14 AFCPE® announcements

Resource Links:
Financial Empathy TEDTalk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hoM5ly2igk

Modom Solutions: https://www.modomsolutions.com/

The Things They Carried book: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/things-they-carried-tim-obrien/1100228685

When Helping Hurts book: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/when-helping-hurts-steve-corbett/1100394501


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Transcript

Intro: 0:03

Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rebecca Wiggins, executive director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education®, or AFCPE®. And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson. I'm an Accredited Financial Counselor®or AFC®and the CEO of Chief Financial Mom. Every episode, we're taking a deep dive into the topics that personal finance professionals care about: helping clients, building community and your professional growth.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 0:49

And this is Mary. Thank you for taking the time to join us today.

Rebecca Wiggins: 0:52

So today on the show, we're talking with Dr. Michael Thomas, I've really been looking forward to this interview because he is such a trailblazer in our field, and he always helps me think about things in a different way. Michael is an accredited financial counselor or AFC. He also has his PhD. In financial planning from the university of Georgia, and he's now a lecturer there. He also has his own virtual financial counseling and coaching business called Modem Solutions in his spare time. He says that he actually enjoys working time value of money equations. And Michael has a fantastic Ted Talk about financial empathy. I also have to say that the date, he's the only person in the history of AFCPE to receive a standing ovation for his keynote address at our symposium.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 1:35

Rebecca, Michael is one of the top thinkers in our field, and I am so excited to have him on the show today as well. I've had the privilege of working with Dr. Thomas at the University of Georgia as a colleague, but I would also say as a friend and I've really appreciated his perspective over the years and how he has been a peacemaker time and time again, and really bring some important issues to the forefront. So we're really looking forward to having you on the show today, Michael, thanks for joining us. Absolutely. Thank you. So Michael, tell us a little bit about yourself and your professional background. How did you get a start in this field?

Dr. Michael Thomas: 2:09

Yeah, actually, well, I graduated from LaGrange College and went and served as an auditor for a couple of years and while as an auditor, I really felt as if I was lacking the type of connection that I thrive in and anybody who's ever done that type of work knows that when you show up people, don't, aren't celebrating that you're actually there. They, they put you in an office in a closet somewhere, and if we have questions they never answer or they're conveniently away. So I, I knew that that wasn't the space for me because I've always had this compelling drive to, to serve individuals who don't have access. I just felt like I was being pushed further and further away from really what my calling is. So from there I transitioned and worked as a admission counselor for a couple of years at LaGrange College, which is my Alma mater as well, and worked my way up from that role to ultimately being the, the Director of Financial Aid. I thought that I was finally in the space that was going to fulfill, that itch that I had for service. And it did up to a certain extent, because one of the things that I had to do as a, in my role in position is I would have to speak with families about their financial aid award packages and how they could go about covering the gap. And the most frustrating thing for me during those conversations, uh, was that I would tell families that, Hey, this might not be the best choice for you. And then those families would say, Hey, well, what if I, you know, took out a second mortgage, or what if I liquidated our 401k, what if I did this or that or the other. And then to my way of thinking, it struck me because like, well, by you doing those things, and sending your child here and them potentially taking on a considerable amount of debt to attend, if they didn't have the, the aid package, then you're putting yourself in a financially precarious situation. And then your child may be latent with significant amount of debt. Now we have a generational situation that's happening here. And that just didn't sit right with me. And I went and spoke to my VP and I said, Hey, you know, what can I do about this? So it was like, well, I'll tell you one thing. Like, I appreciate you letting him that family know that this might not be the best choice for them, but you don't tell the president that you turned away seven families this past week, especially at a small institution. So there was a conflict there in terms of really being able to be a fiduciary to the families that we're serving, even though LaGrange, had the highest ideals and things of that nature, but then there's also the business side of it and we need to get students here. So I figured that, Hey, maybe the next step for me is to do something, uh, and potentially personal finance, being a financial planner and already been reading a lot on psychology and psychology of money. So if you actually look at my LaGrange College library, track record, you will see nothing but money in psychology, money in psychology, money in psychology. So that was the, the impetus for me to pursue my degree at the University of Georgia and because of having that experience and working with amazing people like Mary, Rebecca, you all through AFCPE and the faculty and so on and so forth, I've had some amazing opportunities to create programs for children and adults, to serve the community, sit on boards, things of that nature, which is, I think is really transitioning me, in to being in a space where I really feel as if I can use my skill set, to both, to be intellectual, but to serve, and then also to have r elationship. So I think that this is a happy medium for me,

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 6:06

Michael, I've seen your skills and abilities to be able to teach and bring across a message to people in a way I've never seen before. You really have a gift of teaching. Tell us more about why you wanted to get into teaching and especially teaching financial planning.

Dr. Michael Thomas: 6:23

Absolutely. I think I struggled with teaching for a long time, especially as a male, because I didn't feel as if it was as respected as other professions. And honestly, with, with the pay discrepancy of teachers and individuals who were just public servants in general, and for the amount of work that they do, not just for teaching individuals, but also being mentors, also using their own resources to either buy food or to buy books or to buy clothing or whatever it may be for, for students in need. There's a significant impact that those individuals have that I felt that was undervalued and under-appreciated. Um, so I struggled with the idea of, of teaching for that fact, from her very long time, until I had a, a moment where I was speaking with my stepbrother about something, and my dad was, was there at the time. And he said something that really struck with me. He said, you know what? You have an uncanny ability of taking something complex and making it palatable for someone to receive that information and to get them to think about it. And, and that really struck me, because I had never really thought about it a whole lot up to that point. But it did stick with me and that kind of actually moved that needle for me to entertain the idea of, of educating, not just for the sole purpose of providing information, but, but for that information to stick in such a way that I like to what I do at my class, I told my class during the first day I am going to cause dissonance like that is my goal. Like when you leave class, I want you to leave wrestling with something. I don't want you to leave like thinking, Oh yeah, that was a cool class. I want you to leave feeling heavy sometimes about what you thought you knew and what I'm presenting to you and how you wrestle with that. Because what I've realized is that they're in, that's where the growth lies. So yeah, that kind of put me in a frame of mind that maybe teaching could be something that's for me. And teaching personal finance h as been important because for me money, isn't the main thing. It's a conduit to the main thing. U h, like I tell my students all the time, this is about family. This is about relationship. This is about community. Money helps facilitate those things. It's the connection to those things and not the main thing. So for me, teaching has been a beautiful blend of, again, my intellectual capacity, my intellectual curiosity, I'm always learning, I'm always reading. And in thinking about how then can we take this information and help people use it to connect it to whatever goals they have. and that's where I think that I thrive where other people don't, especially when it comes to teaching, because I don't make it about the knowledge I make it about how that knowledge is going to be relevant to you and what you want to achieve. And we make it about the person and not about me.

Rebecca Wiggins: 9:39

Yeah. That's so powerful. So I'm curious in your journey, how you got introduced to the AFC®designation and then how you would say it's impacted your career and your work with students and clients.

Dr. Michael Thomas: 9:52

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a wonderful question. Dr. Joe Goetz at the University of Georgia through our counseling and communications class a had introduced me initially to the AFC®designation. And for me it was a no brainer because the AFC®confirmed that designation confirmed everything that I thought about client engagement anyway. So it was actually a perfect marriage between my values that I'd already had. So AFC®, already espoused values that I had presently had held, but didn't have anything to tether those things to. There's just an emotional response, my interactions with individuals and human behavior and things of that nature. Uh, so when Dr. Geotz had presented that to me, for me, it was like, I'm absolutely doing the AFC®, and I'm going to be honest with you, Rebecca, during that time when I was pursuing the AFC®, and again, I'm going to be very transparent here. A lot of my peers didn't see why I wanted to do it. And that was precisely the reason why I did it was because I wanted to represent that there's this, there's this behavioral relational element that goes with the process of even if you're a financial planner, just simply sitting down with someone and saying, and speaking in jargon and showing how smart you are, whatever it may be. Isn't always the most effective way to create relationship and rapport and trust with the client. So that they've then, will execute on, you know, the six step financial planning process and the recommendation, and then the tracking of that. So on and so forth, that there are other elements to this dynamic that we have to be keenly aware of so that people not only start something, but we actually create interventions that help them finish the thing, as well. And I felt like the AFC®represented that element or layer that was lacking in the industry. And I'll be honest with you, AFCPE has been around for awhile. But now you're starting to hear a lot of these, these values that you all have espoused for years now becoming mainstream media. And you all will have always been on the front line of this conversation. So for me, it was a values thing and I didn't get the AFC®designation as a, to be a part of alphabet soup for me, or to signal anything other than a AFC®represents my value system. And that was the reason why I did it.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 12:33

Michael, I think that's, what's so unique about you is you've always led with your heart and your values and you are unwilling to change those. And I really admire that. You've talked quite a bit about financial empathy. So we want to know, where does this idea of financial empathy come from and why do you think financial empathy in practice matters?

Dr. Michael Thomas: 12:53

So initially, there was a call to do a TEDx UGA talk, and my wife had nudged me for several weeks to do it. And I was like, I'm not going to do it because I just, I don't like just being a talking head. So if I, if I speak, I want to provide something novel. And she was like, well, you know, you talk about shame and all these other different things, because that's what I was experiencing work with clients. A lot of shame that they were bringing into those sessions. Well, why don't you do a talk about financial shame? So that was the premise initially, but what we did and my hat goes off to Lauren Sloan, who now, does a lot of writing and things that nature would CNN, who was a UGA student at the time. She worked with me through this process and we're thinking what incentive working on the shame element, maybe let's focus on the solution element to the shame. So I think that's a very important piece of the context here. This conversation was supposed to be about financial shame and how we shame people. And when we shame people, we force people to go into hiding. And if people go into hiding, that means that they won't reach out and ask for help for the fear of being shamed. So how do we get people out of hiding so that we can get them to proactively start to think about, Hey, you know, what's done is done. We're looking about we're looking at potentially what we can do moving forward, and to help you to experience the life that you hope for. So that's where this idea of financial empathy came from, which is basically this idea of understanding and feeling what another person is experiencing within their context within their frame. And within their bounded systems in which that individual currently exists. There was a quote I came by from a gentlemen, his name is Johannes Gottlieb. He is a 19th century philosopher. And he basically said that you can only appreciate an object, when you and an object become one. And I thought that was incredibly powerful. So I just kind of flipped it a little bit. Right. I remixed it. So it was so you serve the client best when you can understand and feel what that client is feeling within the context of their situation and, and that's what that was born out of. And what I've learned through a lot of trial and error with clients is that when, when I'm being empathetic within a client engagement or working with an individual, that means that I am in a greater position to listen and not just listen for objective truth, right. But to listen for story truth as well, and a story truth of client provides all the elements that we need, right. It provides the emotion, there's a level of intimacy. It gives you a frame of, of context. It lets you know, how they're feeling. And then what I started doing was I was like, all right, I'm getting all this information. And just simply listening. I started saying to myself, if I was in that person's situation, without my privilege, without my intellect, without my this or that eight other degrees or whatever it may be, how would I work out of that situation? And then I would start to say, all right, with what I know and who I know now, how can I start adding resources to the situation? How can I be a conduit to access for a particular individual to help them achieve whatever their financial goal is beyond just simply, uh, some of the standard practices or standard recommendations that we would make. And what I found was that in doing that, when I would create a recommendation for a client, the recommendation resonate with the client, because they would see that I've actually taken into consideration their feelings, their context, their relational situation, and have thought about, well, I know that we're trying to get here, but then how are we addressing these other things as well? So that those things don't become barriers as you're working towards the goal. And I think what a lot of us fail to realize, especially when people are dealing with financial shock and all these other different things that may be happening in their lives is that the goal is one thing. But for every goal, there are at least five or six micro goals or micro barriers, that need to be addressed as well. And it's very hard to think about the context, if we're not being empathetic and listening, for something more than information that would suggest well all that you need to do is to get your budget together. Yeah, that's a piece of it, but that doesn't take into consideration the context of why that budget isn't together and other barriers that may exist. And then you have, and then that puts you in a position to really have to get into trenches with that client to help them see themselves out of it. Otherwise, if I'm just reaching my hand into a hole where obviously I have a vantage point in a position of seeing very clearly with light and I'm in a very strong position it's very different. My experience of this situation is very different than a person who is in the hole, who doesn't have the perspective who's reaching up and who is grabbing my hand and is trusting that I won't fail them. Maybe like somebody else has failed them in the past. And those are things that we need to tease out. So I'm just, I'm a little bit more in tune, with those types of things, when, when working with clients and I try to address those things as well when creating solutions, u h, but I was only able to do that when I started embracing a more empathetic mindset, with working with clients and, actually has been very, very helpful, f or me. An d, and I would, and I would say that a lot of my clients ha ve b een appreciative of that as well.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 18:47

I think anybody that's ever had a conversation with you would agree how empathetic you are just in everyday conversation of how well you listen, how well you reflect, how well you try to understand the other person's point of view. I know I have felt that many times and just having simple discussions with you, Michael, you have a lot of experience and thoughts with financial empathy. Many of us don't have that much knowledge or education or attraction in that area. What are some key steps you would advocate for other practitioners to implement these ideas and practice?

Dr. Michael Thomas: 19:20

Yeah, that's, that's, that's a great question. I think one of the first things that individuals have to be aware of is self awareness is incredibly important and understanding their motivation for helping people. And it, I can be honest with you. It is very difficult because there is a power dynamic that's at play. And sometimes we have to check our power dynamic because if we're in a position where it's a, I have the power you don't, and I'm the expert, you're not, and you need to listen to me and I'm going to guide you through the state. And maybe in some situations that works. But if that power dynamic is too extreme, it's very difficult to listen. You don't want to know all the contexts. You don't want to know all the information. In fact, you probably feel as if you have all the answers and you're just waiting for one person to, to say something so that you can, you know, hit a check mark on something. And just like, Oh, well, I'll just give them this. And that should be enough. Or that should be sufficient in some situations, sometimes it is that cut and dry, but anybody who's ever sat down and done a presentation in a group full of individuals about money and access and all of these different things knows that afterwards, you're going to get a line of people who are going to come up to me and say, Oh, that was great. But I have this situation. How does this work in this context? And then after that person, the next person that comes up, that was great and all but I have this situation. How does this work in that context? And, when, when you do this long enough, you start to realize that you have to be fluid in the way that you work with individuals. You have to even be fluid in the way that you think about yourself and knowing that you don't have all the answers. And I think that's the first place to start is to, to kind of check our own privilege, check our own power, check our own, de-Greekness sort of speak, uh, so that we can level the playing field and then enter into a situation where there's a, an organic relationship where there's an ebb and flow of power. Not just it being, concentrated in one area within a relationship once individuals have, have checked themselves into and have done that, and have identified that's a thing, I would say that the next best thing to do is to schedule a meeting with a local organization that is serving the community that you want to provide financial services to and in doing so, what I would encourage individuals to do is to say, Hey, I just want to go, I have a list of questions and I just want to spend the entire hour or hour and a half listening. That's it. Not providing any solutions and, and not just listening, but listening to understand, listening for context, listening for, for feelings and emotion, like just really immersing yourself in that situation, taking notes, and maybe doing that for maybe two or three organizations, because I think that we're so compelled to go out and to stand on a mountain top and say, listen to me. Well, we see that in social media, like everybody wants to have a voice and there's nothing wrong with having a voice. I would argue that right now is a perfect time to step back and just listen. Because every solution that I've been able to create with a client has, has born out of me simply listening to a client and ideating on some of the things that they had told me. And in thinking about in our area, in our municipality, with things that are going on in our state and state laws and regulations, things of that nature to think about how do we effectively address this issue based on the contextual factors as it relates to a particular scenario. Does that mean that it's me providing financial advice, or is it financial advice and also advocating? So if I know that a bill is coming down or that there's something being proposed and I have a voice and I have a seat at the table, it's not enough for me to effectively help this client just part providing a recommendation. I also need to be showing up at city council meetings. I also need to be speaking to the mayor. Also, maybe thinking about state legislation, things of that nature as well, because once you really immerse yourself in this space, you start to realize that the issues and the problems are so much bigger than just a spreadsheet that somebody needs to fill out. And I think that that's when you truly become not just a, financial counselor or coach, I think that you become a financial advocate. And that's what I kind of refer to myself as is like, I provide services one-on-one, but I'm also engaged in the community. I'm also in the mayor's ear. I'm also thinking about legislation like this is going to be a lifetime passion of mine. So once somebody has sat down and just listen, listen, to understand, to ask, follow up questions for clarification, to understand the details of the situation. Then what I would say is this, after you've done that to then take two weeks, go through that information, think about the context, right? And then start thinking about, Hey, with my privilege, with my social capital, with my resources, with my know- how, how do I address this situation? How do I address this situation? How do I address this situation? Right? And then what's happening is, is that now you're actually creating actual solutions that are relevant to the people in the community that you serve. Because what happens is, is that now when you go and present, you don't just present the information you present the contextual barriers, and then what are the solutions you've found to overcome those. So at the very end of that, people come up to you and say, you did us, you hear us, you know, our situation, you know, what's going on and I appreciate you. And that's, that's, that's the gap. That's and that's the, that's the only reason why maybe my presentations are a little bit different. My explanation things are a little bit different because I just don't rely on understanding when interest rates go down, bond prices go up. We're talking about the contextual factors here, right? Because if I'm a business owner and I want to borrow money, do I want to borrow money, cheaply or expensively? I want to borrow it cheaply, right? So I want to, you know, extend a lot of these IOUs to get very cheap money. I want you to understand contextually and how that works from a business and economic perspective, a psychological and emotional perspective. It's just not, when you see this, you see this, but why does it happen? What should driving the behavior? And I spend a lot of time in that. So I, so when you hear me talk, I'm touching on the financial piece, but then I'm digging into the details that are relevant to that community. And the reason why I know that they're relevant because I listened to them verse, and I, and I did the work because I have the capacity because maybe I'm not financially constrained. And what we know within the literature is that when individuals financial shock and financial constraints, it actually has an impact on their capacity to make optimal financial decisions. Right? So if I'm in a position where I can take that burden off of individuals who don't have the capacity, because they're worried on dealing with things on a week to week basis, and I can address some of these larger areas because I have the capacity. And in fact, that's what I'm paid to do to do that. For me, that's a win, win situation. I did to get paid, to serve the community and potentially to produce research that then shows that this might be a more effective way to do it. So that would be my strategy is to check the power dynamic because clients know it, as soon as they walk in the door, the way our body language, the words that we use, how we look at people, our gestures and mannerisms even though, we might not say it verbally, our mannerisms will suggest some type of power dynamic, how we structure our office, right. And then from there, it's once you've addressed that and listen, and then once you've listened and you'd gathered information, start thinking about the context situational factors and how do we address this situation comprehensively. And not just saying that if I give you financial knowledge, you're going to do wonderful things, because sometimes it's just not that simple.

Rebecca Wiggins: 28:04

Wow. There's so much there to unpack. And I feel like, you know, as you were talking about the power of listening and sort of the timing of when to know when to step forward and when to step back, it's, you know, I'd be remissed I guess if I didn't point out that we are talking today on blackout Tuesday. As we record, there are protests going on around the country, after the deaths of George Floyd, Ahmad Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and many others. And, you know, last week you joined us on AFCPEs webinar where we, we focused on the COVID-19 pandemic and specifically the disparate impacts on black and brown communities and women. And so, you know, I'm interested from what's going on all around us, through all of the pain and outrage. I will say, the thing that I'm finding hope in right now is that people are really seeking ways to understand, and to be more inclusive, can you share wisdom for what you're just talking about, sort of from the client perspective for where we are today and you know, how we can continue to work to break down those barriers, address our bias, but more importantly, move forward together in a really positive way, because we're clearly at a point where change is being called for and demanded for. And so we really have to figure out what are these solutions going to be moving forward and how do we rebuild and recreate something that, that serves all people moving forward?

Dr. Michael Thomas: 29:35

Honestly, I want to be very candid here is that I don't have a solution. I don't, I don't think that there is one solution.I think that, and again, this is just my personal perspective, uh, and in the words of the late Nipsey Hussle, but the marathon continues. And I think if nothing else I just need for people to understand that the real world does not operate like the internet. And I think that sometimes there's a disconnect. I think that our expectations about how the world moves and how swiftly just justice or change occurs, happens at a, at a click of a button like instantaneously. It does not. And if, if nothing else, I would just, I would really strongly encourage individuals. If you were, if you were legitimately taking up this calls of, of social justice, then this is a life time worth of work. And my question to you is if this really means something to you, are you willing to devote your life to seeing a little bit of change? Because if we look at historical context, and you know, people, great people who've who've existed, and all the amazing things that they've done, it moved the needle slightly. Right? And I think that we have to have appropriate expectations, uh, for, for the systems that, that currently exist. I think that we need to educate ourselves on systems on barriers and to start strategically thinking about from a systemic perspective, from a barrier perspective, what potentially are possible solutions to addressing these things and to not give up hope in the event that one strategy doesn't work or another strategy doesn't work, that we just have to keep persevering and pressing in the work. And I'm not going to say that I'm not discrediting protesters. Cause I feel like protesting is a part of their work. It's one element voting as a part of the work. It's one element showing up to city council meetings as a part of the work is one element sitting on boards is one part of the process is one element. But for individuals to know that if you are going to engage in these things, you have to engage in the process of this thing, because we don't know whether the outcome is going to be seen within our generation or a lifetime or in our children's generation or their lifetime or their children's children's generation or lifetime. But it's just important that if, if we're going to do this, if we're going to commit to it that this just doesn't become a narrative that was, you know, prevalent all over the place. And then three, three months from now, it, it dies down. Nobody is in an uproar. Things get back to normal. People are working Christmas and the holidays are coming up and then we slowly forget, but there are people who have constantly and have been working prior to any of these situations happening and the'll be working and driving these things well, after this, these things have occurred. My hope is that individuals who, who want to see change really commit to the fact that this is going to be a lifetime worth of work. We're not going to find the immense, the answers immediately. I think that's the inappropriate expectation and that we take pride in continuing to pivot, continuing to learn, continuing to educate others on what we've learned, what has worked, what hasn't worked and continuously share information continue to, to, to work together, collectively, whether it be the black community or, uh, blacks and other minorities, black and white allies or whatever it may be to continue to put pressure on the systems that are in place that ultimately create these unfortunate injustices or perpetuate these unfortunate injustices that we continue to see. And quite honestly, for generation from generation, from decade to decade, from century to century, I mean, this is not a new story. And the only thing that that really changes is that whether or not you're going to have people who are really committed to fighting for this cause, and knowing that their advocacy can't be for three months or six months, it's going to be for 20 years or 30 years. And that's something that people have to legitimately wrestle with because if we set unrealistic expectations and I see this often times with clients, but what happens is if we don't hit the expectations, it feels like a loss. And if I go to prospect theory, economy and diversity here, and we talk about loss aversion and things of that nature, and what happens when we feel a loss is that we feel a loss two times more than we feel a gain, right? And if I'm feeling a loss at a greater magnitude than I feel a gain, then that means that even if I have small gains, those small gains feel inferior to these losses that I've had because I had inappropriate expectations to begin with. And if you continue to face that over and over again, it's easy to give up hope. So I just really want to challenge people to think about their expectations, to look at historical context of any and everybody who we consider currently right now to be great or deem great in history books and how much time, what was the commitment? What was the effort? What was the mobilization? What was the sacrifice that they made to do the little that they were able to do? So that would be my big point there,

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 35:27

Michael, I really admire your dedication and your passion, honestly, for helping to see that change and make change. I think there are so many out there want to see the change, but maybe feel a little bit overwhelmed, or they're not able to see what role they can play in this very macro level discussion, because it is a worldwide, nationwide systemic issue that many are grappling with. You mentioned earlier that a lot of it comes from listening and understanding, and the solutions also often come internally. So you don't have the solution for everyone, but maybe internally people can find their own solutions or hear others and gain knowledge to help identify their personal solution. What are some recommendations you have for people who maybe can't change the world or don't feel like they can, but want to see a small incremental change in their own family, their own life or their own community?

Dr. Michael Thomas: 36:32

Absolutely. I think one of the, I tell my boys says all the time, it's like, I don't expect my boys to change the world. I do expect them though, if they're going to be, if they decide to get married, to be, good husbands, to be good fathers, if they decide to, to live in a community, to be advocates f or, for the community in which they live to s ew themselves into the work of, you know, making t he community better. So f or individuals, again, there's this expectation piece because if we make the expectation that we want to save the world, u h, we can fall flat. And I know I f all flat o n a t several times, I've had to recalibrate a little bit. U h, so for individuals who are, who are in that space, like y ou're s aying M ary's small, small wins matter. And I think that those small wins have to be within a comfort zone and an expertise of, of that particular individual. If that's writing, local legislators, to, to address the issue, then that's that. If it's to go out and to, to, to protests with, with others who are fighting, you're rallying for calls in that sense, if it's something as simple as during a family dinner, and somebody brings up something that is incredibly racially insensitive, to call it out and not just to call it out, but to have a family conversation about who we are and what we represent and how that's incredibly hurtful and how we're not going to continue this narrative that has persisted for so long. And this is the thing: we live in a space where if you don't show it on social media, it doesn't exist. And that's incredibly unfair because I believe that there are a lot of people who are doing a lot of amazing things that are never going to be posted on social media, but it doesn't mean that they aren't advocates. It doesn't mean that they aren't doing something extraordinary. So what I want to say to those individuals is to take heart, keep doing what you were doing, and your legacy is gonna live far beyond a quick social media post, or a blackout Tuesday, where that's the extent of what some people are going to do.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 38:45

Well and I think when it's a selfie moment, as you mentioned, it really makes it more about you and the conversation being about us and how we worked together. And I think that's what I'm hearing the theme throughout your conversation, whether you're a practitioner, whether you're an individual, whether you're a member of society, it's taking that limelight off of ourselves and really sharing that light with all of those around us and being able to say, how can we work together? How can we make an impact? And a lot of times it means we're not talking, we're listening because that's how we make a difference in the long run. So, Michael, at the end of each interview, we like to get the guests two cents or biggest takeaways for our listeners. You've been a leader in the profession and have impacted hundreds of students and families. If you had just one piece of advice to offer other financial professionals, what would it be?

Dr. Michael Thomas: 39:53

I think, so again, in terms of this, let's, let's keep this onto sort of point that you just made Mary and make it about us instead of making it about me, make it about we, instead of making it about. And I think that if we are able to do that, we will see the needle move. Because again, if I amass a lot of wealth, but there is no justice, I still don't have peace of mind. I stilI don't have peace of heart, but if I have justice and I don't have a whole lot of wealth, I still feel as if I'm operating within a system that is going to be looking out for me and that I have every opportunity to thrive and succeed to potentially accumulate wealth. So I really feel as if to the point that you were making to the spirit of, of this interview is that for other people who are out there really step outside of self, and, and try to make it about us, try to make it about we, and, and figure out how you can just be a part of the process. Like, I'll be honest with you, Mary, right now. I don't want to be a chief. If I need to be a chief, I can step up and be a chief right now. I just want to be a person that falls back and says, Hey, if there are other people who are leading and are doing amazing things or organized or structured, they have a clear vision. How can I be a part of that? How can I support it? I don't need to be the person up front. I don't need to, because I know that having a lot of people up front, meaning that there's a lot of different agendas and then it becomes about power and it has nothing to do with actually creating change. So I think that if we really want to create change, that the leaders now are going to be the individuals who are going to say that, you know what, I'll fall back and I will drive the initiatives. I will drive the vision and I don't need to be the front person to do that. I just want to see change,

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 41:47

Michael, thanks so much for joining us today. You've given us so much to think about and to consider and really implement in our lives so that we see change in ourselves and our families and our communities. Thanks for joining us today.

Dr. Michael Thomas: 41:59

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Rebecca Wiggins: 42:01

Wow. What a powerful episode today with Michael, he just really embodies the spirit of the AFC®and our profession. He's such a great leader, and I love his ability to grapple with the hard issues. He said today, the wrestling is where the growth lies. And it reminded me that oftentimes that is when we sit back and listen, and we listen to other voices and their experiences and learn, especially during this time, it seems like the right thing to do. What were some things that jumped out at you? I have just like a whole list, but I'm curious what your thoughts were.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 42:35

You know, his passion. You can tell that that man has so much passion, not just for beliefs and causes, but especially for people. And I have seen that at the individual level where he takes hours and hours of his day and his time. Well beyond the expectation that is required of the university to help tutor individuals, not just students as a whole, he teaches hundreds and sometimes thousands of students every semester. And yet he spends so much time with each individual. He just really offers his heart and soul to others.

Rebecca Wiggins: 43:14

Yeah. And I think that's, that's the key here, right? The key takeaway is about relationship building. And, you know, he talked about finding the story truth of clients first, and then figuring out what resources we can provide to help them understanding the systems, but also the micro challenges as he talked about that sort of prevent people from doing the thing that they want to do most. And so it's just, it was such a powerful hour for me to just sit back and listen to him and to be reminded that it is about the relationship building in, in our work and in our world around us. So, wow. This is just such a great episode, I'm so thankful that he spent the hour with us. And I think I'll be thinking about this one for a while to come. I also want to, before we go, I just want to remind everyone to check out the membership forum, the AFCPE connected community. There's going to be lots of announcements and things that you'll want to be connected to there. So don't forget to check out that forum, engage with us there, and we'll see you next time.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson: 44:13

Thanks so much for listening today. Please make sure you subscribe to our biweekly podcast available on many of the channels. You get your podcasts from including Google play, Apple podcast and iTunes. We always want to hear your perspective. And if you want to share with us, go to the AFCPE to tell us more about your thoughts. And I did, you can also follow us at AFCPE on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to join in the conversation. Tell us what you think using hashtag real money, real experts. We can't wait to hear from you.