Real Money, Real Experts

AFC + CFP: Complementary credentials for maximum impact

• AFCPE® • Season 1 • Episode 7

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This week co-hosts Rebecca Wiggins and Dr. Mary Bell Carlson talk with Justin Chidester, AFC® and CFP® about the art of private practice. In a time when virtual meetings have become essential, Justin has mastered how to manage remote clients with his practice spanning over 13 states and three countries. The episode dives into Justin's journey from non-profit to private practice and takes a look at what the path looks like from college to fee-only financial planning and helping clients achieve their financial goals.


*Show Notes*
00:52 About Justin
01:52 Starting Wealth Mode Financial Planning
02:50 Financial Adviser vs. Financial Planner
04:29 From non-profit to private practice
05:06 Fee-only financial planning
10:22 How to serve as both and AFC® and CFP®
17:17 Growing your client base 
21:35 AFCPE® Symposium Conference
27:28 Your Two Cents

Resource Links:
AFC® Certification: https://www.afcpe.org/certification/accredited-financial-counselor/
Wealth Mode Financial Planning: https://www.wealth-mode.com/
XY Planning Network: https://www.xyplanningnetwork.com/
AFCPE® Symposium: https://www.afcpe.org/symposium/

Want to get involved with AFCPE®?
Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!

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Intro:

Welcome to Real Money Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rebecca Wiggins, executive director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education®, or AFCPE®. And I'm your co-host, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson. I'm an Accredited Financial Counselor®or AFC®and the CEO of Chief Financial Mom. Every episode, we're taking a deep dive into the topics that personal finance professionals care about: helping clients, building community and your professional growth. Welcome everyone to Real Money, Real Experts, podcast. I'm Rebecca. And this is Mary.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Today on the show we're talking with Justin Chidester, Justin holds both the CFP®and AFC®credentials, and he's the founder of Wealth Mode, Financial Planning in Logan, Utah. He's driven by his mission to provide unbiased, transparent, and accessible financial advice on a flat fee basis. He specializes in financial planning for households with six-figure student loan debt working primarily through video conferencing. His clients span over 13 states and three countries. And outside the office, he hangs out with his wife and best friend Annelyse, watching movies, playing the piano or guitar and staying up late to work on their 40,000 piece jigsaw puzzle. That's pretty amazing. So we're excited to have you today.

Justin Chidester:

Thank you. It's good to be with you.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

And Justin. I'm excited to reconnect with you again. We met several years ago at an AFCPE®conference, and I feel like you were just getting off the ground with your business, and I'm amazed how quickly it's grown over the last few years. So tell us a little bit more about how you got started as a financial planner and counselor.

Justin Chidester:

So I'm on the younger edge of maybe this profession. I just turned 30 a couple of weeks ago. And so I'm cognizant that I'm kind of this leading edge of, of people who studied personal finance as their college major. So at Utah state University, about, nine years ago, I went into a major program that was an AFC®registered program and a minor that was a CFP®registered program. So they called that the family finance program for the AFC®side and the personal financial planning minor for the CFP side. And so I took those concurrently. And so from the very beginning, I had this intent at the university level to work in the field of personal finance. I didn't know back then exactly what that would look like, what that exposed me to was these two different sides of the personal finance industry that have some overlap, some distinct aspects that they bring to the professional money world and also how they viewed each other a little bit. So as I went through school, I was kind of hearing from both sides and trying to make this decision that felt like a very binary one at the time do become a financial counselor or do I become a financial advisor, financial planner. And, I remember going through, through that program and get near the end of my college experience and honestly being quite disillusioned with the job opportunities that I was seeing in the financial advising side of things, where I felt like my heart was, was in financial counseling and education. So I did go down that route. I was lucky enough to find an internship between my junior and senior year, just the way they say you're supposed to do it. And I was lucky for the opportunity to work at a local nonprofit agency. That's in the HUD housing counseling system and was exposed to some financial and housing counseling there that turned into a part time job during, my senior year and the stars aligned for a full-time job opportunity. By the time I got out of school, they were, they were getting an additional grant at that time to run a, a financial counseling slash coaching program-- however we want to do it. And we wrote up the grant for it. And so I was able to just kind of segue right into the field of financial counseling right after I got done with school.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

So tell us a little bit more, you got done with school and then you decided, Hey, I want to start my own business now. That's a big jump in between the two. So how did you start putting the pieces together? How did you start finding clients kind of give us that story of growing your business?

Justin Chidester:

So you made that sound really short in reality, the transition from, from working as a financial counselor in the nonprofit space to becoming an entrepreneur in the private practice space, a lot had to happen there. It took a long time for me to accept that I don't, I still don't see myself as a 100% through and through entrepreneur, which I think surprises people sometimes when they see my business from the outside in, I very much see myself as a human services person at heart. I mean, I was considering marriage counseling or maybe the medical field healthcare back when I was trying to decide what to major in. I see an alternate reality where I definitely could have gone down a path like that. That's where my heart is, in a one-on-one human interaction and service. And around the time I had already decided I'm a financial counselor, that's my identity. That's, that's where my people are. I finally found out on my own about this, this community of the financial advisory space called fee only financial planning. And it sounds funny that I could go through a financial planning program at the university level and not quite know what that is, but it's a small program. It's run by one professor and he basically taught the curriculum, but, didn't have the capacity to provide much in the way of, career advice or, um, job exploration. And so I kind of found that on my own, the primary field in the financial planning organization, NAPFA was actually holding their national conference, the regional conference in salt Lake that year, which was just an hour and a half away from where I live. So I actually was lucky enough to apply and get a scholarship the exact same month I graduated and started a full-time job, financial counseling. I found out about this fee-only financial planning world. That that seemed to be the people in that space that, that really cared about providing competent high quality, fiduciary level service for people. And I just had not found that yet when I was exploring financial planning jobs during school. So all of a sudden when I thought I had chosen my path, all this, you know, I found this, this sub-community within the financial advisory space that really spoke to me. And so I actually started keeping my eye on. I wonder if there's a way for me to, eventually transition into financial planning. And so over the next three years, I basically worked at taking the AFC®exam to, to get that credential. I finished that and went, maybe took a two week break and then promptly went into my CFP®prep. And so I took those two exams only about five months apart. I think I was in the initial group of, AFC exam candidates who were taking the new consolidated exam. So that was back in June, 2015. I took the CFP®exam November, 2015 from there. I, I began to slowly but surely plot this transition into maybe starting my own practice. And the reason I decided for that, as opposed to going and switching and finding a job with financial planning was unfortunately, I was looking around me in my local area and could not find a financial planning jobs that I felt like I could do people right with. They involved, sales or approaches that, that I, that from my own personal study and going through, you know, to, to professional credentials of curriculum just didn't feel like made sense. And so I thought maybe the only way I can serve who I want to serve, which is not just the upper 20% of high income and high net worth. Maybe if I want to serve my peers or people in earlier stages of life, it seems like there's not really anything out there. So I guess I have to make it on my own. And, you know, luckily around the same time, there's this movement with an organization called the X Y Planning Network of financial advisors who were, at the time, most of them were sort of leaving the life insurance companies and the broker dealers and the large asset managers, and also trying to jump out on their own, because again, they had this similar reason as me is wanting to serve the people they wanted to serve. And so long, long story short to wrap that up, basically I never would have considered starting my own practice because of all the compliance regulations. And you have to all of a sudden think like a business owner and get into marketing and operations and, you know, all of that stuff, I never would have done it without a really good, business coaching platform. Like the XY planning network that was, they basically filled in the gaps that I felt like I lacked, without something like that in a community like that, I never would have tried to do this on my own. It's just a lot of work and it takes more courage than I have on my

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Well, and tell us a little bit more about the services you do offer. Is it more in the financial planning realm? Is it more on the financial counseling realm? What does it look like now?

Justin Chidester:

When I started my practice, I went back and forth on that a lot. Initially I thought maybe I would have my distinct financial counseling services since I was AFC®. And I knew what, what that credential had taught me and prepared me for. And I thought about having a separate list of these financial planning services, because, you know, if you look at the financial counseling world, the financial planning world, the, their curriculums are very distinct. In some ways they have a good level of overlap though. And, and maybe especially the, the biggest thing is they, they compliment each other really well when you put it all together. And so I knew the professional worlds looked at it that way. Here is what financial counseling is. Here's what financial planning is, but you look at those topics and they're, they really represent the full spectrum of financial choices and decisions that people have to make across their lifetime. And so in the end, I just decided to say, well, I know I'm sort of being registered in my state as a financial planner and investment advisory business. I know that I bring financial counseling skills and approaches to the table when I serve clients based on what they need and what they're dealing with. And so, I'm going to go down this path of just opening up shop as a financial planner, but, but really, you know, it's hard for me to really turn off the financial counselor brain. I have clients all the time who need their credit fixed, or they are not on the same page as a couple with the money. And if we don't get those things figured out the other parts of their financial plan, aren't going to happen. Either that home buyer goal that they have, or, you know, following the budget, they set that we set up for them. That'll take them to be, be ready for the longterm retirement goal. And so it's kind of baked into what I do and, you know, my clients, they don't know that, that they're receiving sometimes some services or some, some structured conversations that a lot of other advisors and planners probably wouldn't be able to hold with them. They don't know that, but they are getting it because they're working with someone who, a CFP®and an AFC®.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Justin, you've been talking a little bit about how, you know, you've got both designations kind of at the same time and how they're really integrated in your approach. Can you share a little story about, maybe a client story or something about your approach and sort of that value of bringing both approaches to the table and how that helps inform and enhance the services that you provide and the impact that you have on clients?

Justin Chidester:

This was actually just a couple months ago. I had a couple reach out from Virginia. So the other side of the country, they had found my website and making the big decision. They were about a financial professional to work with. They were interviewing a few different people and they mentioned that. And so we were talking about my services and what they needed and using my maybe financial counseling ears and the listening skills that are very deliberately taught in that career curriculum. I picked up, I picked up some tension, I guess you could say in, you know, when I had asked each of them about what are you looking for in working with a professional and reading between the lines I was able to discern that something that they weren't quite saying was, they had tried to get advice before, but there were disagreements in the marriage that were, prohibiting them from being able to follow through consistently or be on the same page. So I gently, I can't remember exactly what I asked, but I gently prodded them with a follow up question. And they said, okay. So to be honest, you know, we really see money differently. It's been really hard for us when we get advice to, to follow it, because it seems like at least one of us doesn't like something about the recommendation we got, we can't decide on a way to run our money management system or a budget in a way that we both, like, it just doesn't seem like people want to advise us on that either. And so I said, well, lucky for you. I'm actually, you know, that I'm a CFP®and that's something you already asked me cause you're searching for a financial planner, but I'm actually an Accredited Financial Counselor too, you know, and I give them a basic introduction to what that is. And, you know, I was on the phone with them, but again, you can still kind of almost see the potential dissipate a little bit. And there was this feeling of, Oh my gosh, there's finally this person, who's not afraid to talk about this stuff. He understands that it's hard, you know, and you can be really smart and be an expert in what you do. And this guy works for the federal government near DC. And she was a very competent person to her field as well as a exercise physiologist. And they felt like, you know, we're smart, sharp people. Like why, why is, are some of these things so hard for us and having someone who could just understand them in that way, the behavioral side of personal finances is willing to listen to them. It basically made it a, you know, from a business perspective, it's, it's part of how I have won clients before. It's part of how I'd set myself apart. But as far as how, you know, as we transitioned into to helping them, instead of jumping straight into all of the, the nuanced technical long-term stuff that financial planners can easily fall into, I was able to start our first meeting as a, you know, in our formal engagement, talking more about their story and why it's been hard for them to get on the same page with money in their relationship. And that set a foundation that made everything else so much more seamless and smooth as we built the rest of their financial investment.

Rebecca Wiggins:

So is that kind of the main distinction you would make then between financial counseling and planning is kind of that human services approach, you know, the human element to the financial planning side of it, or how would you just make that distinction?

Justin Chidester:

I would say that's one of the major two, because the, you know, the CFP curriculum is completely exempt from communication skills or maybe they added a little bit in, in the last few years, maybe I saw something like that, but the CFP curriculum seems largely devoid of, of any of those soft skills, those communication skills, how you interact with the client listening, psychology, the behavioral side of money. So I think they, the AFC®definitely compliments it well on that side, I know many financial planners are able to fill that gap just with the long years of experience, if they are intentional about how they have conversations with people in thinking about that. But, um, I think it takes them longer. And when you don't have a structure to learn and practice those kinds of principles, it again, it just takes a lot longer. And maybe during that time, there was a lot of opportunities missed to help people more than you did instead of them being your, your guinea pigs for learning how to listen. Well, maybe you could have gotten that training upfront and been a little bit more deliberate, and effective in helping clients who needed some of that. I would say the one other gap. And again, this is something that some planners pick up if they're interested in advising their clients on this stuff is the end of the personal finance spectrum t hat, that covers things like budgeting and money management system or teaching the basics, the very basics of tax o r managing your credit score, managing debt, consumer protection, actually a lot of planners don't know a ton about mortgage finance a nd, and, you know, b y g oing t hrough that process of buying a home, they know whatever, you know, they've learned from buying a home on their own, working with a realtor, that stuff is super important and almost everybody deals with that stuff, regardless of where you're at on the income and wealth spectrum. And so y ou could, can you pick that up? Yes. But i t's, it's all sort of haphazardly or on your own rather than having a structured system that consolidates it very nicely.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

That's awesome. And it looks like you've got quite a diverse amount of clients as well. I'm looking at your website and see that you've got clients all over the U.S. But you also have clients that are international. How did you find your clients?

Justin Chidester:

You know, it's funny, I I'm half Japanese. My mother is from Japan and I served a two year mission for my church in South Korea. And I've had clients from both those countries, but neither of them had anything to do with my connections there. They actually just found my website to be honest, and they're both associated with the military. So that's what took them over there. And so they're living on bases, which makes some of the complex, the potential complexity, not, not so bad. It's not like they're living as citizens in those countries. So they're Americans, in the military living on base and they, they just really liked my approach and what I did so that that's it. I wish it was a funnier story than that, but

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Well actually included something really important. Most of your clients, it sounds like then have found you through your website and your website's pretty impressive. What would you say to other financial counselors and coaches that are looking to gain their client base?

Justin Chidester:

I thinkpPeople will tell you a lot about the should and should nots of how to present yourself in your marketing, your branding. And, and of course your website, I say, go out and learn what all of those things are. There's definitely some, some right and wrongs that, that the marketing world has got down to a path, but then try to delineate which of those principles really is subjective because with the rest of the stuff, I think the number one most important thing you can do is just to show your true self, present yourself really authentically. Don't try to look up here like anything you're not. And what you'll do is you'll attract the people who want to work with someone like that. You know, I don't wear a suit and tie to work every day. That's not me, you know, I, I have my business formal to business casual sort of stuff, but never quite that high. And if a consumer is looking for someone like that, and that's like a subconscious or conscious must have, we're just probably not a good fit anyway. And so instead of risking something, that's not going to be a great fit longterm. The more you, you present your genuine self on your website, I think you're going to have a great experience in the people that contact you are already likely to be a good fit,

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Who you really are. That's a great point. Just be authentic to who you are, and that'll speak to clients that are like you too. You know, you've also registered as a RIA, I believe with X Y planning. Tell us a little bit more about why you chose to do that. And if you were only doing financial counseling services, would you still choose to be registered or not?

Justin Chidester:

Yeah great question. Really, if you're holding yourself out to the public with the business and that you help people with personal finance, you've got to be very cognizant of when you might be crossing the line into breaking the law or not. And honestly, a lot of people just don't know this. I know there's a lot of people out there who are, they're just trying to fill a need and do people, right. They, they probably have some good education skills to actually help people with financial counseling or financial coaching. But over in the financial advisory side of things, we are all very cognizant of a law passed way back in 1940, investment advisors act. And basically what it amounts to is it's a federal law that if you give any sort of advice, remotely related to an investment decision, and that can even include the surprise, a lot of people from, and I'm not a compliance expert, but from talking with a lot of people. And from what I was told, as I had to go through this process, if you tell someone to put their money in a money market account, as opposed to just a generic savings account, that's actually crossing into what the federal law calls investment advice. And the second you are holding yourself out to the public as a finance professional or investment professional of any kind. Even if you don't say I'm an investment advisor, you say I'm a financial, anything you take payment for services, and any of your advice or recommendations has to do with investments, you actually need to be registered. And so, you know, is there probably a fair amount of unregistered business in this realm going on? Yeah, I think 99% of the people don't know that, and they're not, they're not knowingly or trying to, you know, skirt the law, but it is problematic if this grows. And it's the issue I think, is gaining some awareness with each of the state regulators that are supposed to watch over the investment advisors, their areas. And I think it could be problematic as this movement grows

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Yeah, really great point, Justin. And one thing I want to clarify too, is it's not how you defined your investment advice or the advice you give. It really is going to be open to interpretation of how that state regulator defines that advice. And it's going to be up to their interpretation of it, which we've seen already is kind of all over the map in terms of how they define when you cross the line and when you not. So I would, I would encourage us, like you said, others that are looking to start their own business to reach out to compliance professionals and just ask these questions to make sure that you're in the right lanes and that you're doing the right things, whether as a financial planner, financial coach or finance or accounts.

Justin Chidester:

Yeah, that's an extremely, extremely well said. It's a really good point to make

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

So Justin. We met several years ago at the AFCPE®conference. When you were first thinking of starting, it you've come a long way since then, but I feel like there's something of value of conferences. We would probably have never connected. Had we not met at that conference? What have you gleaned from attending many years at AFCPE®s annual symposium?

Justin Chidester:

I would say the number one thing about, you know, making the sacrifice of time and money to go out to a conference is whatever the next step is that you want to take in your professional and career development. There is someone there who has made that transition at a conference, and if you're willing to, to network and put yourself out there and try to talk with people, you're going to have quality conversations that will move you toward what you really want to do. Whatever that next step is. Maybe you are really happy with where you're at and that's great, but in that case, you'll find somebody who is doing what you do as well. And we'll help you to evolve into an even better professional to serve the clients that you love and the way that you want to do. Um, you really can't replace those interactions that you have. It's, it's too bad that we're living in a world where these, symposiums and conferences that we've been used to going to is maybe a little bit at risk. And we're going to have to significantly modify the way we do it. But the, the, the experience I've had at conferences and to the AFCPE®symposium is irreplaceable. And, you know, for me, it was finding more people who were both CFPs and AFCs, I, I was really hard to find out where find where they were. I, I remember searching online for a couple of years. They're like, where are the other people who have both of these credentials? And I can network with them, talk to them, couldn't find them. I went there at AFCPE®Symposium. It was San Diego. Was that 2017, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So the 2017 San Diego symposium and met a handful of them and it was awesome. Never, never could have been, become connected with them in any other way,

Rebecca Wiggins:

Being part of AFCPE®, but also some of the other organizations and networks, like you mentioned, XYPN, what would you say are some key lessons you've been able to glean just through your interactions with other professionals and kind of the, the value of mentorship or just, you know, gaining best practices and learning about other people and what they do in the field. Do you have any sort of key, key things that stuck with you or helped you along the way?

Justin Chidester:

One really valuable benefit of being part of, you know, official professional communities, associations, or networks that I didn't anticipate when I started my practice is is that when you are just like a solo, professional, running a private practice, whether you're a, an individual financial planner or financial counselor, you know, one thing that consumers are wondering, even if they're not asking to you directly is how can you be this one person and kind of know everything, because maybe they're comparing you to, well, there's this financial advisory down in the street, and they seem to have this, this big team of people. And aren't eight, minds better than one. And I've realized that, you know, how I'm able to respond as, Hey, I'm an individual solo practitioner, but you know, the, the knowledge that you'll get from me, isn't mine alone. I closely associate with several different professional communities and organizations. And if I feel like I need to access that broader network of professionals to help serve you, to find an answer, to find a strategy or an idea that could be pertinent to you, I go and access all of that. And it's not, I'm not paying lip service to that. It's a real thing. I have a forum in the, for the AFCPE world that I can go to and ask a question or gather thoughts that goes for XYPN or NAPFA. And I have found that to be an extremely useful resource. I thought it would be much more like, Oh, whenever I want to, maybe I'll peruse what people are talking about, but I've actually been able to find definitive and very helpful answers on behalf of my clients, which is what this is all about in the end, right? And even though we all approach the personal finance space from a slightly different angle or a different background, um, in the end of the thing that we do all share, hopefully is wanting to serve our clients the best that we can.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Justin you make a great point that even though you're a solo practitioner, you're not alone in this. And it really important to surround yourself with competent other likeminded people, or sometimes even a little bit different that maybe push you a little further, but really important to reach out through associations, through groups, through connections and find help along the way. So that you're not an Island, you're not out doing this on your own, but you're really connected and plugged in with others.

Justin Chidester:

Absolutely. And actually to tack onto what I said, these conferences, I think if you approach them, right, or any of these associations, you try to make within these networks and getting membership is if you do things right, I think you'll find a very smaller sub community that you can be a part of. And, you know, sometimes people call these networking groups or mastermind groups, but it has been extremely helpful through the duration duration of my practice from the very beginning to have at least a couple of different groups that I jump on a zoom call with, maybe, you know, one group is once a month. Another one is every other week. And it's exactly what I've done. Uh, what you said, Mary I one group is, is a bunch of people that are very similar to me. We all have the same focus. Uh, as far as, you know, we work with high student loan debt professionals, right? But there's another one that I'm on a group, uh, on a group call with five other solo practitioners. And we all have completely different focuses in what we do and come from totally different backgrounds. And we range from age 30 with me to, you know, age 60 with, with one of the other professionals. And you learn so much from those similar to you, but you learn maybe just as much, if not more from those that have something different to offer.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Okay. So Justin, at the end of each interview, we like to ask the guest for your 2 cents or your biggest takeaways. So if you had one piece of advice to offer other financial professionals and especially those exploring a career in private practice, what would it be?

Justin Chidester:

I think hands down, it's find your community and stay engaged with it. I think there's this phrase that we use in the private practice side of things, um, that as a business owner, or as an entrepreneur, you go through the highest highs and the lowest of lows sometimes all in the same day. And, it's a personally and professionally challenging decision to make. But I think a lot of us are drawn to it for, for many great reasons. Maybe we think it would offer us the work life balance that we want on our own terms. But again, I think more often than not, when I talk with people who want to become private practitioners, it's simply because they feel like it will enable them to number one, serve the people that they feel most passionate about serving and two do it in the way they feel like is best that utilizes their strengths, their skills, their advantages, the unique perspective that they bring as a person and as a professional to this spectrum of trying to advance ourselves financially. And it is, you will not, I honestly believe it's a cliche, but some people say you never make it in business on your own, but it's 1000% true. Without the one on one interactions that I've had within my professional networks and communities, and I never would've made it this far and I still feel like I've made it. I don't know if I ever wil'm constantly trying to evolve and figure out how I can improve, how I can make things better for, for my clients. And the answer seems to always come from, from somebody else. And, and that's why I would just say it's easy to sort of shrink and feel like you're on your own. And maybe some of us feel a little bit like we thrive off of that. It's me against the world sort of attitude, but, you know, I can promise you that, if you involve yourself and try to find other professionals, either trying to do what you're trying to do or already doing what you're trying to do, you can make it. I just, I know that I'm a living example of it because again, I think Justin, Justin Chidester on his own in 2016, he decided to start a business was very ill prepared when I look back, no matter how much I thought I'd put in the research and was ready. You're just not on your own. You need the skills and the knowledge and the, the interactions of other people. And if I could just add to that, people are more willing to help you than you think.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Well, thank you, Justin so much for taking the time to be with us today. You've given us so much insight, especially to those looking, to get into private practice and wanting to start their own business. I think there's a lot of questions and unknowns out there, and you've really kind of clarified not only your path, but given us some ideas to think about. So thank you for taking the time to be with us.

Justin Chidester:

Thank you guys for the opportunity. It's been a pleasure.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Justin is one of my favorite business practitioners to talk to he's so open. He's so willing to share his background where he came from it and really how he's doing it very early in life and serving lots of people, making a big difference. One of the things that are really stuck out to me is he doesn't even see himself as a financial planner or a counselor, all these names that we kind of give ourselves, but he really serves people with a human services focus, and he's really interested in helping them wherever they're at, regardless of what you call him. He also really wants to serve people early on in their life as well as his life. And I think that's kind of been an interesting take in, in the world of financial planning and counseling is sometimes we wait until we're well into almost retirement or even retirement to reach out, to get professional financial help. And yet he's able to set up a business model that allows him to help people very early on in life. Well, before they retire or need to retire. And so I think that's a great way to start is helping people earlier on instead of waiting till everything's a crisis.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Yeah. I'm so impressed with him. I didn't realize he, he was only 30. But he's really been so thoughtful in how he's built his business. And I love the integrated approach of course, with his dual credential. And I think he gave some really valuable advice about starting your own business and, you know, looking into the getting registered and things like that. So it was, it was very informative as well. And he's just always a pleasure to learn from and talk to. I loved also his, he talked a lot about the value of the network, right. And you know, the, the value of coming to the conference, but also engaging on the forums and things like that. So I think that's a great reminder to get involved in the AFCP®E connected community and also to stay engaged with each year at the conference. So this year, of course, we're moving to the virtual event due to the pandemic and just to keep everybody as safe as possible, but we are going to have an exceptional week long experience. So you can find out all about that on the AFCPE®website, we're going to make sure that it is just as informative with cutting edge research sessions and opportunities to still network with one another. It'll be informative, inspirational, interactive, and we'll keep that element of fun as well. We have lots of really great things planned. So please save the date for November 16th through 20th, we have a lot of scholarship opportunities and we can't wait to experience AFCPE 2020 with you this year.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

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