Real Money, Real Experts

Special Edition: John Sileo’s Key to Unlocking Cyber Security

February 02, 2021 AFCPE® Season 1 Episode 19
Real Money, Real Experts
Special Edition: John Sileo’s Key to Unlocking Cyber Security
Show Notes Transcript

Following up on last month's episode with Axton-Betz Hamilton, this special edition episode focuses on identity theft and cybersecurity. Cyber Security specialist John Sileo joins Real Money, Real Experts co-hosts Rebecca Wiggins and Dr. Mary Bell Carlson to talk about how he personally was a victim of identity theft and why he's so passionate about helping others.

John is a Harvard graduate, award-winning author, and a nationally renowned speaker who's appeared on Rachel Ray, Anderson Cooper, Dr. Oz, and Fox and friends. He is also a frequent contributor to USA Today, The Washington Post, and Kiplinger. John is now the CEO of the Sileo Group, which is a high tech think tank.  

Show Notes:
00:52 Intro John Sileo
02:17 John's path to cybersecurity
04:43 Cybersecurity crimes in John's personal life
15:06 Cybertheft effects on personal relationships
17:10 Top tips to protect against identity theft
20:53 Identify theft and the pandemic
23:25 Identity theft insurance
25:54 Tips for financial counselors and coaches
27:59 Your Two Cents 

Show Note Links:

Connect with John:

Sileo.com
Facebook
LinkedIn
Youtube

Password Manager Options:
https://1password.com/
https://www.dashlane.com/
Credit Freeze with all 3 credit bureaus:
 
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0497-credit-freeze-faqs

  1. Turn on two-factor authentication for anything online if possible: financial, investment, email, etc.: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/twofactor-authentication-2fa.asp
  2. Use Password Managers:https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-password-managers Recommend: https://www.dashlane.com, https://1password.com/ 

Credit Monitoring: https://www.annualcreditreport.com
Identity Theft Insurance: Can buy through your homeowner’s insurance
https://www.ftc.gov/coronavirus/scams-consumer-advice 


AFCPE Membership:
 https://www.afcpe.org/membership/
Find an AFC professional:
https://www.afcpe.org/find-an-afcpe-certified-professional/


Intro:

Welcome to Real Money, Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rebecca Wiggins, executive director of the association for financial counseling and planning education or AFCPE. And I'm your cohost, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson. I'm an Accredited Financial Counselor or AFC® and the CEO of Chief Financial Mom. Every episode, we're taking a deep dive into the topics that personal finance professionals care about helping clients, building community and your professional growth.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Welcome everyone to the Real Money, Real Experts podcast. I'm Rebecca.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

And this is Mary. Thanks for taking the time to join us today!

Rebecca Wiggins:

So Mary, last month we interviewed AFCPE member Axton Betz-Hamilton about her personal story of identity theft and how it's affected her life. Today,We're going to do a special episode, continuing the topic of identity theft with cybersecurity expert, John Sileo. John is a Harvard graduate award-winning author and a nationally renowned speaker. He's appeared on Rachel Ray Anderson Cooper, Dr. Oz and Fox and Friends. He is also a frequent contributor to USA Today, The Washington post and Kiplinger. John is now the CEO of the Sileo group, which is a high tech think tank. We are so excited to have you on welcome, John.

John Sileo:

It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

So for you listeners out there, I met John several years ago when he was one of our keynote speakers at Department of Defense events that we hosted across the nation. John is an incredible speaker, and we are glad to have him in his stories that he's going to tell us and really the information he is bringing to us on identity theft is cutting edge. So we're excited to have you listen, John , you've been a speaker for many leading firms and government agencies. You've spoken at the federal trade commission, of course, DOD FDIC, or federal deposit insurance corporation and department of Homeland security. So we're truly glad to have you today. You've got a fascinating story. Please tell us how you became a cybersecurity expert.

John Sileo:

Yeah, it was not the easy way. I'll tell you that. You know, for context, your listeners need to know kind of three things about my past life to make sense of what I've been through with cybercrime number one. I , long ago married my older sister's best friend, Mary, who I had had a crush on since I was kind of the overly eager bat boy on their sixth grade softball team When Mary and I gave birth to our girls, our daughters, I became this blubbering dad who tears up even at the mention of my girls' names , which are Sophie and McKayla , or my fireflies as I call them. And so much so that when the girls were little, I took Tuesdays off of work just to spend some time with them. And then number three, since kind of the day that I started my very first lawnmowing business, I wanted the freedom in life of being an entrepreneur, like my dad and my mom as well. So I left corporate America and I took over the family computer business that my parents had started out of their garage in 1964. Well, at that time it was struggling because of these big box stores come into town. So I created an internet software division of the company with my best friend and my rock climbing partner, Doug. Doug is this , he's like the Tasmanian devil, all five foot, two of h im, he rarely sleeps. The guy barely stops working and he is a software coding genius. So that by the time McKayla , my youngest was born, Doug and I had built this $2 million treasure chest that just gave us such an amazing life. And that of course is when it first happened to me. In my case, an organized cyber crime ring stole my social security number out of some unshredded trash that I had put out on the curb. Now , in my particular case, a woman, Rosemary Serrano, if you can believe it, a woman bought my identity on the dark web and used my credit to buy herself an oceanfront home in Boca, Raton, Florida. Rosemary. Yeah, it was unbelievable. She drained her life savings . She defaulted on the loan and then she declared bankruptcy in my name. And the way that I found this all out was when security guards physically escorted me out of my bank for crimes that Rosemary , had committed as me. And that's kind of when I learned that, listen, this, this information, you know, our personally identifying information as we call it in the business is kind of the master key to our most important , crown jewels of v olatility, to the value that we have in bank accounts and credit and savings and so forth. And that was, that's k ind o f the first level of theft that I had. And I can, I can tell you about the second level. If you're interested,. The girls were still little it's, it's a Tuesday it's August 12th, quite a few years ago. And when the doorbell rang on that morning, I was just sitting down for a, u h, a tea party with Sophie and McKayla, which is something I did with them all the time. Sophie's little stuffed dog scrappy was at t he, the fourth place setting. And they're standing on my doorstep that morning was special agent BradWimera square s houldered and, unshaven Brad Weimer from the economic crimes unit of the district attorney's office. Now I was pretty convinced he was there to tell me that they had captured Rosemary, that they'd, you know, recovered our money, wiped out my bankruptcy, that I no longer have to fear , being charged with all of these crimes that Rosemary was off committing in Boca, Raton, Florida in name. And that's the moment at which , agent Weimer handed me a subpoena. And then in this, this voice, so calm that it was, you know, it was menacing. He explained that I was about to be charged for electronically embezzling for hacking $298,000 from my very own software customers. He explained that the DA's office had enough digital DNA to put me in jail for a decade. And then he literally left me there, shaking in front of my girls with still, you know, a tea cup in my hand. Well, fast forward through my two-year criminal trial fighting like hell every day to keep myself out of jail for Rosemary's crimes. My $2 million software company, the family business are gone. Tuesday's for Sophia and McKayla are gone. You know , all of this taken by a cyber criminal ID thief who had actually had nothing in this case, nothing to do with Rosemary Serrano or that first case of, of ID theft. This time , the criminal head had tunneled their way and had socially engineered their way inside of my, my business. You can guess Doug, my best friend, my business partner, man, I loved like a , frankly like a brother he stole and used my banking login credentials to digitally embezzle from our clients to fund some incredibly sick habits and to cover his crimes using my identity. And then he kind of let go of the rope and let me take the fall. So it all kind of came to a head a two years, you know, two years into my criminal trial. And just before the girls bedtime, Sophie, who she was five at this point, she peeked into my home office. She's in her pajamas in one arm, she's carrying scrappy , her, her stuffed dog and the other, her favorite bedtime book Daddies are for Catching Fireflies while I'm distracted by my work. And Sophie can tell I'm annoyed. So she's whispering daddy it's story time . Daddy read me a book, Papa Sophia . And I'm, you know, I'm frustrated Sophia, not now. This is, this is so very important. And she said to me there, when you're done, daddy, can I be so very important? And it was just, you know, it was one of those moments as a parent, as a person, like everything that, that I was had been well , I had been hacked. I had lost the trust of my customers, that reputation of my business, my personal wealth. And that's, that's how, how far I had to be driven to recognize that this is not just about the data, right? It's about our lives. It's about everything that it connects to. And, and that's why I care so deeply about this topic. And I'm so pleased that you're, you know, you're letting your advisors and your, your members know about it.

Rebecca Wiggins:

John, I'm really interested to know how long from when you found out that there was an issue. Did you discover that it was Doug or did you kind of have a sinking feeling right away?

John Sileo:

So that's a really good question. And one that I don't talk about very often. So my wife and my father, both who are very intuitive, had a sense that something was wrong, you know, months in, because we were doing so well. And this Doug was so good to us and so kind showered gifts upon us. And they were suspicious about that. I was off, we were off legitimately making so much money that I wasn't paying attention to that. So I got a call , so on August 12th, t he DA showed up. And that night I was on the phone with my dad, who w as my business partner, and Doug and we were talking about the case. And at this point we had no idea that it was Doug and on that phone call. So we're now, you know, this has been going on for years on the phone call. Doug said, listen, I've got a spreadsheet that proves that they had authorized all of these automatic transfers. It was ACH fraud using my identity to do it. And I said, great, send it across. We're still on the phone. I look at the file because of the work that I had done in consulting and with the Pentagon and so forth, even back then , you know, years and years ago, I knew about metadata. I right, clicked on the file. I looked at the date that this supposedly four year old document was created and it had been created the night before. And in that moment, I knew that Doug was the one that, who had stolen from our clients that he had used my identity, but that didn't matter to the DA's office. That didn't matter to the 20 plus customers who came after us. All they cared about was that they had digital proof that I had done done all of this forensic proof. And they came after me for those next two years.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

They came after you and Doug, or was it just you primarily at the beginning, John,

John Sileo:

Primarily me and the business and, you know, by association Doug, but you got to understand when you put your digital footprint on something, when you log in and somebody , you know, a criminal like Doug logs in with your identity , the bank thinks it's you, the courts think it's you, it's you. I mean, that is your authentication. And that's why we got to take this stuff so seriously, when we, you know, use cloud services bank online, so forth,

Rebecca Wiggins:

How were you able to prove then that it was Doug in the end

John Sileo:

That we proved it in the end was , rather simple. And that is that his wife left a voicemail on my , uh, cell phone admitting confessing to what he had done, not knowing that that would change the course of it all. And that when I handed that to the DA , they started to understand, okay, there's more going on here. And this was early enough in the, in the cycle, you know, this was in 2003 that the DA's office didn't really know what ID theft was at that point, or they certainly didn't have the, resources to deal with it. So it was kind of an education for them as well. But in the meantime, until we had that proof , it was, it was all John Sileo committing these crimes.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Wow. So John, I've got two questions for you. One is, you've told us two stories, we've got Rosemary's salon going on and we have Doug your business partner. Can you kind of back us up and give us a timeframe, are the two related? Are they two complete separate stories?

John Sileo:

You know, that's another really fun question because they are related in that I was in the midst of fighting Rosemary. And in that case US bank, which is who Rosemary had bought a home through using my identity, and there had to be a title company that was involved in this in some way , uh, you know, in a nefarious way. So I was super distracted and I think that, and the idea of it that Doug watched, because he was there as I was going through this first case, I think maybe it, it gave him that, that incentive and that way to commit fraud against me in our business while I was taking my eye off the ball. So they're related tangentially, but I think in a really important way. Wow .

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Wow . So it affected you personally and professionally and find a question for me. Did you ever serve any jail time because of this?

John Sileo:

No, absolutely not. Doug did serve jail time. I was , as soon as the DA's office, I kind of switched from the lead suspect to the lead witness when I was able to produce that voicemail from his wife. So I never , never faced anything. It , it came out in the papers. What had happened. I actually refuse to share his name in the, in the newspapers. But the paper did their research and figured out who it was. He went to jail for for 18 days. It was a 54 day sentence commuted to 18 days. This was for more than $900,000 worth of, of theft. And it just shows you how little white collar crime is often prosecuted and how overwhelmed the system is with these types of crimes.

Rebecca Wiggins:

And what happened to Rosemary? I'm curious.

John Sileo:

You know, we still don't know. I still will have, I mean, I have probably the most secure credit of anybody, but I still have her trying to do a payday loan scams, take out money online in our bank from her. So it's, they never go after him . I mean, you gotta, you gotta understand that . Even back then, I was like 6,500 on the list of what they then call , check fraud. It wasn't, but that's the only term they had for it in their system. They cannot in any way process, all of these cases of, of ID theft and fraud, which is why it's so important to prevent upfront.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

And John, with that, you've been fighting Rosemary. It sounds like over two decades, and you're still dealing with that today.

John Sileo:

In spite of the fact that I have personal connections inside of the three credit bureaus, in spite of the fact that, you know, I'm a semi celebrity on it. It doesn't matter when they've got your numbers. They, you know, they control your destiny to some degree.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Okay. So I'm , I'm curious about something else. You know, we , we mentioned at the beginning of the episode, that last month we did a session with one of our members who had a personal story and it turned out it was her mother. And so I'm kind of trying to figure out, do we know, or do you have data on, does it happen more often with people? You know, I mean, you have an example here of someone you don't know, seemingly I'm assuming you don't, you didn't know Rosemary and then your business partner, but is there any kind of correlation with the damage that can be done depending on the relationship to the individual or anything like that?

John Sileo:

Yeah, so the data is inaccurate and here's the reason most of the, most of the time that ID theft or cyber crime happens nowadays it's because a corporate database was breached. So there's millions and millions of people who, you know, say Target or Marriott or chase millions, who've had their data stolen and misused. And so it's , it's really hard to say that, gosh, you know, that the one person who had it, that was an insider compared to the 2 million who were part of a breach, those numbers just don't compare. What I will say is the most serious cases and the ones that I get calls about every week, especially if I'm doing a wellness event for a financial planner, I guarantee you, I have, you know, in 150 people sitting in the room, I have five people come up afterwards who talk to me about their, you know, relative who was on drugs, recent divorce, those types of things. So it is common. It does not, it's not well-represented however, in the statistics,

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Wow, John, we have a lot of members and a lot of our audience who actually work for the government or have been a part of the OPM breach have also through the Experian breach. There's so many ways that people have been exposed to identity theft and potentially could be victims of identity theft. Can you give us your top tips of what we can do today to protect ourselves against identity theft?

John Sileo:

You know, some of these are are old school, and yet they still work for us as individuals because people haven't implemented them. So you've got to , you kind of start with the foundation and move outwards to the more technological side. Number one, I'm sure they've heard this before, but a credit freeze, not, not a fraud alert, but an actual credit freeze with Experian, Equifax, and TransUnion to lock down your credit with a password, just like you'd lock your, your smartphone. That's like a no brainer that everybody needs to do right away. Second, I would say turning on for all of your really important accounts, financial, medical, investment, really for anything, that's it that's at all critical. Even your email turning on two-step logins or two factor authentication is as we call it in the technical world where you get either a text message to your phone, or even better, you have an app that generates a number. What that does is if, because all of our data has been stolen in so many ways, right? It was, you know, it's been hacked. Every American has been had their data hacked multiple times. That means your username and your password is out there. If the criminal has that, but they don't have your phone at the same time. And they can't get that additional second factor of authentication. That, that second code, they can't get into the account. And that's why two factor is so incredibly critical.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Great. Anything else?

John Sileo:

You bet. I would say along with that password managers, they do a couple of things. They force you to no longer, you know, use your kids' names, your dog named birth dates, those types of things, simple passwords that we use over and over. And that, of course, once criminals get ahold of one, they use on, you know, they go out with a computer program and they test every bank in the, in the world with those passwords. When you use a password manager and examples are one password or dash lane or last pass, none of which I, you know, represent or receive money from, those are all just good packages. It lets you set up 20, 30 character alphanumeric passwords. You don't have to remember them. They go encrypted between your devices so that you've always got them with you. That really is the, probably the number one way to keep people out of your online accounts. Is that a manager like that, that makes it easy. The backside of it is they also let you know when there has been a breach. So for example, the Marriott breach that happened not so long ago when I opened my password manager, it came up and said, listen, this database has been breached. The Marriott database, you need to immediately change your password. It's at risk and just little alerts like that, almost like your credit card account alerts. Like did I spend that money? And you know it and stop it right away. Those are really critical.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Do you have a password manager that you recommend?

John Sileo:

I personally like one password it's made by agile bits, which is based in Canada. I like it because Canada has a little bit more stringent privacy regulations than American companies do. And I would also say dash lane, it's kind of a more corporatized version. You have what , with all of these, you can set up your whole family or your business. So for your , your average advisor, if they've got five or 10 people in the business, you could set up a password management software for them, where you would have access to all of the passwords or, you know, to most of them, they would have access to certain passwords. That way you can really monitor, listen, these people are using, you know, five character there . Their password is past one, two, three, four, and you can actually manage it a little bit better for anything that's corporate related.

Rebecca Wiggins:

John, I'm interested to know if you've seen any changes to personal security and privacy related to the pandemic.

John Sileo:

Oh my God. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a, yes. It's almost mind numbing. So the primary way is of course through those emails that we, you know, we get that our exstortion scams, meaning, Hey, we videotaped you , uh , at your computer doing something embarrassing, send money here or click on this link for whatever reason. Well, now what it is is, listen, you've been approved to receive the vaccine, click here, to sign up, or you've come into contact with somebody who has COVID , call this phone number or you get a call on your phone saying that, or you get a text on your phone. These are all just phishing or social engineering scams, but they prey upon the latest headlines. They prey upon our fears about COVID about, you know, the political stuff going on. And they use it against us to get us to react without slowing down and thinking through it.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

So, John, there's been a lot of fear about contact tracing surrounding COVID and during the pandemic, can you tell us a little bit more about the security of that?

John Sileo:

Yeah. Contact tracing is a difficult one because it was developed. So contact tracing is when your phone gets near another phone of somebody who has COVID it lets you know, you've been exposed for example, or when somebody has confirmed to have COVID it gives you a text and says, Hey, you have been near this person. It's all great in theory, the problem is these apps were developed in a matter of months, not years, they haven't been tested in the wild as we call it. They haven't, you know, actually had criminal hackers trying to get through them. So if you think about back to the election in Iowa, to that app that they use to tally the votes and what a mess that was. Well, they had years to develop that app and it still failed. So the idea of contact tracing, it makes me a little nervous from a privacy perspective. I like it from, you know, from a health perspective, but I would say that's something that we need to do. We need to have legislation on. We need to have lot of testing and technical resource put towards it and we have it for the next pandemic. It is not good enough yet for this one. Now one aside on that is Apple and Google have worked very hard to, to keep it very private. And I, you know, I want to believe them at face value, but I never take any company at face value until I've seen it actually work for six months or a year and, you know, show that they're safe.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

Great. That's really helpful. Something else that resonates with me from your story is the amount of hours and time. And literally you lost years of your following up and trying to rid your name of these crimes that have been committed against you. I know that now we've got this thing called identity theft insurance, and I'd love your stance on if it's worth the cost. If so, which one do you choose? Just give us your insights on that.

John Sileo:

I'm not a huge fan of the different, there's kind of two different things. There's identity theft insurance, which also comes with the other, which is an identity theft monitoring service. So the good part of those is that if somebody touches your credit, you get an alert. If your name is or social is out there on the open dark web or the regular internet, they , they give you a text or an email. The problem is none of that prevents the theft. It only lets you know that you've been a victim of it, which does let you recover. Now, the insurance is fairly limited in what it will do for me having lost hundreds of thousands of dollars a business, it would've done nothing. It might've paid for $10,000 of my legal fees, which would have been, you know , well worth it at that point, the insurance, which you can get simply by adding it to your homeowners policy. As a, as a writer, generally costs about a 10th as much. It's about $25 a year. It gives you the same insurance. It doesn't give you the monitoring, the monitoring itself. Heck if you go to annual credit report.com and look up your , your credit profile a couple of times a year and watch your accounts, you know, you're have account alerts set up for your investments and so forth. You're doing almost as much as paying 250 or $300 a year to have identity monitoring. Again, there's, there's always an exception. And the exceptions that I recommend are if you have been a victim of ID theft and need help, recovering I'd sign up for a service. And if you've been part of a breach and they give you free credit monitoring or free identity theft monitoring, I'd take them up on it. See if you like it, see if it adds some value and then re up if, if you're interested,

Rebecca Wiggins:

John, I'm curious too , if you could give some tips to our financial counselors and coaches that are listening about any red flags or things they should be aware of when they're working with their clients who may have been victims of identity theft.

John Sileo:

What I see from these financial planners that I work with because they are a trusted advisor already, right? And they kind of already have that. Buy-in from their clients. They're a great resource for people on these topics. And I think that's why I spend so much time in the world of financial advisors because when they help their people protect themselves and their wealth, not only are they, you know, protecting the wealth, they're also creating a ton of value outside of their normal offerings. They're , you know, expanding that value chain. And that creates a great amount of loyalty amongst customers. And like when I think of my advisor, Bob, you know, he had all of us at a dinner and had me teaching, you know, here's how to lock down your smartphone. Here's what your, your Amazon echo is doing, listening to you. Here's what Siri is doing. Here's what your Facebook account is revealing. Those types of things. Don't just protect the end user, the clients. They also build great loyalty and trust between the two. So I think number one, you know, be , be a resource for your people, whether it's a newsletter or a video, or you do a, a wellness event for your people. That's number one. Number two is you gotta protect your own data. I can't tell you the number of planners that I have seen inside of that are not doing what they need from a cybersecurity perspective, whether it's their cloud offering, whether it's the way that they send, you know, social or financial information back and forth via email rather than a secure portal that has been tested. Those are critical to keeping your members in business. And I , I can't emphasize enough that they have to think through their security as well as their clients security.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

At the end of each interview, we'd like to gather the guests 2 cents or biggest takeaways for our listeners. If you had a single piece of advice you could offer other financial professionals, what would that be?

John Sileo:

The number one thing that I would recommend to them as businesses is to not get caught up in all of the fear. Fear is a great motivator at the very start. It does not keep people doing what they need to do. It does not get their clients to make the changes that they need to make. What I think works really well is a small bite sized entertaining clips that, that tell them one thing at a time that tell them, listen, turn on your two factor authentication on your Schwab account, or start using a password manager, turn on account alerts so that, you know, when somebody is shifting money inside or outside of your accounts, using those little bite-size pieces is probably the best use of this information to kind of further that relationship with the client on the personal side, I would say, you know, stop listening to this podcast when it's over. And I would go, and I would turn on two factor authentication for every financial and medical account that I have got. That is absolutely one of the greatest things along with kind of locking down your smartphone.

Rebecca Wiggins:

Well, John, thank you so much. We're just so glad that you were able to join us on the show today. And we are going to link to a lot of what you talked about in the show notes. Would you just tell our listeners where they can get more information from you on how they can protect themselves their businesses and their clients?

John Sileo:

Probably the easiest way is through my website, which is sileo.com S I L E o.com. There's a blog on there. A ton of resources I've been writing on it for gosh, 15 years. Most of the posts are still very relevant. Of course, I'm on Facebook and less so on Twitter, but Facebook and LinkedIn as well. If you link in with me there, I tend to write about the latest current issues, like the latest hacking of the U S government and so forth.

Rebecca Wiggins:

We're so glad you've joined us today. Thanks so much for helping us understand how we can protect ourselves and our clients. We're glad to have you

John Sileo:

Always my pleasure. Thanks so much, Rebecca.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson:

I love listening to John and I will tell you now, this is just the tip of the iceberg for him. He can talk for hours with stories and information to arm our listeners with so much information. I would encourage you to follow up with him on his YouTube channel, as well as on his website and arm yourself with information for both yourself, as well as your clients. There's just so many ways that this growing white collar crime is continuing to be on the rise. And you've got to watch out for yourself and your clients. And as he said, even if you take all the precautions necessary, you can still become a victim. So it's really important to know to how to handle it quickly, if something does happen and make sure those changes and fixes take place immediately and not let it continue. If you enjoyed the show today, please give us a rating and review and be sure to share it with a friend real money. Real experts is available wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you want to continue the conversation, consider joining the AFCPE membership community as an AFCPE member, you gain access to resources, networking opportunities, and professional development that supports your work and your career. Learn more at our website, AFC pe.org.