Getting to the heart of it: Understanding our clients’ values and money behaviors with Sarah Li-Cain

 On this episode of Real Money, Real Experts, co-hosts Rebecca Wiggins and Dr. Mary Bell Carlson talk with Sarah Li-Cain, finance writer, podcast producer, and host of Beyond the Dollar.

As a journalist, Sarah speaks to an incredible variety of people, listening to how money intersects with their physical, mental, and spiritual health. In this episode, Sarah discusses how money affects the human condition and how, as financial counselors, we must work to understand the heart of our clients’ money behaviors. 

Remember, if you missed this year’s Symposium, you can still register for the on-demand recordings and access more than 50 hours of professional development content. Thank you to everyone who joined us!

 Show Notes:

00:52 Sarah’s Introduction
01:36 Sarah’s Journey into the Field
03:36 Finding the AFC®
07:58 “Money itself is only as important as what's going on in someone's life”
10:20 Beyond the Money
19:18 Values Based Spending & What is Enough for You
22:40 Sarah’s Two Cents

 
 Show Note links:

Connect with Sarah!
 Twitter: @sarahlicain
Instagram: @beyondthedollar
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahlicain
http://beyondthedollar.co
https://beyondthedollar.co/enough/
https://beyondthedollar.co/spending/

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Transcript

Intro (00:02):

Welcome to Real Money, Real Experts, a podcast where leading financial counseling and coaching experts share their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rebecca Wiggins, Executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education® or AFCPE®. And I'm your cohost, Dr. Mary Bell Carlson. I'm an Accredited Financial Counselor®, or AFC®, and the CEO of Chief Financial Mom. Every episode, we're taking a deep dive into the topics that the personal finance professionals care about: helping clients, building community and your professional growth.

Rebecca Wiggins (00:45):

Welcome everyone to the real money, real experts podcast. I'm Rebecca.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (00:49):

And this is Mary. Thanks for taking the time to join us today.

Rebecca Wiggins (00:52):

Today on the show we are talking with Sarah Li-Cain. Sarah is a finance writer and a podcast producer whose work has appeared in places like Bankrate, Business Insider, CNBC, Redbook, Yahoo! Finance, Forbes, Financial Planning Association, and NextAdvisor (which is in partnership with Time). She's also the host of Beyond The Dollar, where she and her guests have honest conversations about how money affects our well-being. Her work blends practical tips and mindset strategies so that those trying to change their financial life can see themselves in the starring role. She also integrates physical, spiritual and mental wellness so that money becomes a tool to enhance people’s lives. So excited to talk with you today Sarah, thanks for being here with us.

Sarah Li-Cain (01:35):

Thanks For having me on.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (01:36):

Tell us more about your background and your career journey.

Sarah Li-Cain (01:39):

Oh wow. It's a long story - no [laughter]. So is everybody's. So I'll start with what really motivated me to go into finance. So my background is actually as an elementary school teacher, I was teaching elementary school for about 10-ish years. And that led me to meeting my husband. So I'm originally Canadian, met my husband in the US and then we decided let's have a go at living in the US for a while and see how we like it. And so I assumed that as a Canadian moving to the US would be a lot simpler in terms of the finances. I thought, oh, I can transfer my money over here. I can figure out the retirement accounts. Healthcare might be a bit wonky. It's a little bit different. And what I found was I was really struggling to learn a lot of the basics in terms of like, what's an IRA? How do I figure out, credit? Things that I, I was really, taking for granted, I guess you could say. And so that, what, what happened then was I was freelance writing on the side. And so when I was transitioning to the US and trying to figure out what I wanted to do, whether I wanted to get my teaching license, what they call equivalated in the US. I thought, okay, let me just do some writing. And I lucked into a finance writing gig. I thought, okay, great. I get paid to learn about money because I'm, I need to learn about money. And so that really led me to a trajectory of writing more for companies. I pitched them on the basis that I am a complete beginner. And if you're looking for someone to explain complicated jargon or topics in a beginner friendly way, I'm the person to do it. And so that's really what led me to where I am today.

Rebecca Wiggins (03:29):

Awesome. And I know you've completed the Money Management Essential course, right? And you're pursuing your AFC® designation now, which we're really excited about. So just tell us a little bit more about why that was important to you. Maybe even how you came upon the AFC and what you plan to do once you get the full certification.

Sarah Li-Cain (03:46):

I started the AFC, partly because I had friends who were doing the CFP®, so the certified financial planner designation. And I wasn't necessarily interested in going through that. I not interested in becoming a financial planner, but I thought maybe I need some education to really help me inform what I'm doing as a writer. And I was doing coaching kind of informally on the side. People were coming to me and asking me questions, and I didn't feel very equipped to answer it in a, in a way that was helpful to them. I didn't want to be prescriptive in the types of advice or suggestions I wanted to give. And so what happened was there, a lot of my CFP friends were like, oh, have you considered the AFC? And I hadn't. And I believe it was a few weeks later, I went to a conference and there was a booth there. And I was talking to a few people there. I was talking to them, I met a few AFCs and they were talking about their experience. And that really led me to go, oh, actually, maybe this would be interesting. And of course I'm a procrastinator that took me months later to, to actually go, oh, maybe I should sign up for this reading everything. It, it was really helpful to, when I started digging into the material was like, I'm like, oh, this, this really confirmed my decision to pursue this because there were, things that I thought I knew that I didn't, and it was just really helpful to open my eyes to some of these, concepts that, yeah. That were helpful.

Rebecca Wiggins (05:11):

Awesome. And do you plan to use that certification then to just continue on with focusing on writing? Or is it helping you work with clients? Has that become more of an established part of your business?

Sarah Li-Cain (05:22):

So, probably mostly for writing. But I've gotten so many requests for coaching and counseling that I probably will do it because I can't ignore any of these emails anymore. But, but I'm finding that I really enjoy it. Having conversations with people about their lives and how money plays into it is for me, just one of the most fascinating parts of what I do.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (05:47):

Yeah, you've got such a breadth of experience. I love that you can talk as a journalist and I, let me tell you now how much I appreciate you taking the certification and understanding it from a journalist perspective. But also I love that you can offer that direct to the base, to the roots, and that is consumers, you know, who are really looking for it. It really allows for a lot of opportunity. The other thing I love about it is the fact that you've dealt with cross border issues. And, you know, there's a lot. I come from kind of the military and government community where even ex-patriates living in a different culture, they struggle with knowing what to do and how to go. What would you recommend to those that are looking at these types of issues, cross-boarder issues.

Sarah Li-Cain (06:29):

What I found too, and this is not something I know people will do on purpose, but when you read a book or you listen to people talking about money, just in the US for example, is many people grew up knowing what a bank account is or grew up with these different financial systems or terms. But when you come from a different country and move over here, for instance, I'm thinking about China, for example. Let's say, let's say you're from China and you understand some of the banking things, but you've never owned a credit card or deal primarily in cash. When you come over here where it's mostly a cashless society, especially now with the pandemic, it can feel very overwhelming. Ah, the concept of taxes is, a major thing. Like I had to figure that out. I had, I mean, luckily I have an accountant now, but back when I was trying to figure all that out, it was, it was a very overwhelming process to go through. And couple with the shame that really comes with money, the overwhelming, that shame, really leads people to not want to reach out to people. Especially I would say, I'm going to air quote this, like experts who they feel are going to talk down to them and things like that. And so coming from that experience, I would go, I want to be able to use my work to make money definitely a lot more accessible to more people out there.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (07:47):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I love that you can speak to all of those things. So tell us a little bit more about Beyond The Dollar. What common things do you hear in your discussions with people about money?

Sarah Li-Cain (07:58):

So the more I talk about money, or the more I vet people to interview things like that, I realized that money itself is only as important as what's going on in someone's life. And so take life insurance. For example, there are people that don't want to think about life insurance, because they don't wanna think about their mortality or, you know, maybe their loved ones, dying, things like that, but it becomes important when let's say your loved one passes away and you don't have the money to say, to bury them or to pay for bills or, or pay off your mortgage, for example. And so then, okay, money really, really becomes important. And so when I realized this, I really wanted to approach the show in a way where I highlight some of these stories and how money becomes important in certain situations so that people listening, could feel seen and heard. And hopefully that will help them think about money in a way that's really applicable to their lives.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (08:56):

And why do you think money is still such a taboo topic in our culture?

Sarah Li-Cain (08:59):

For many reasons, I think one of them is because money is such a huge part of our lives, it represents so many different aspects. And so I was actually just talking to a podcast listener about that she's being really vulnerable and talking about her marriage and how her husband didn't really reveal certain things. He was married two times previously to this marriage. And so in that case, it represented his and her relationship coming together. She was really nervous about how the marriage would work given all of his kind of past baggage, I guess you can say. And so it really wasn't about money in that sense. It was about a relationship and wanting to come across as having a great marriage, right. Or if let's say someone is a breadwinner and all of a sudden lost all their life savings, it isn't about the money that he lost. It becomes this question of how do I deal with talking about my family about this, or how do I deal with the fact that maybe I'm terrible with money and therefore I'm just a terrible person. So it represents all of these different things. And, and because of that, there's so much shame and guilt and sadness and excitement, all those different emotions that it's really hard for people to be vulnerable in those situations.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (10:11):

Absolutely. And there is so much shame around money. Why is that?

Sarah Li-Cain (10:14):

That's a great question. I'd love to answer that one day [laughter].

Rebecca Wiggins (10:20):

So Sarah, I love how you described yourself as a writer, obsessed with how money affects the human condition. I feel like that speaks so much to what our AFCs are passionate about, but you really give it a different spin and depth, I think on beyond the dollar podcast and the things that you're talking about with people, you focus a lot on like the toll that financial distress takes on mental and physical health. And even in the beginning, we were talking about, you know, this intersection of physical, spiritual, mental health. So I'm just wondering if you can share some more stories, maybe about some of those conversations. And as you're talking about how it's, you know, it makes the point that money is not necessarily what it's really about. It's that factor that is much deeper in people's lives and that intersection of money and emotions. Can you share a little bit more about what you've learned, how that's impacted you and your writing, and maybe some stories for our professionals to really drive that point home?

Sarah Li-Cain (11:14):

One of the first stories that has really come up is, I decided to do an episode on alcohol consumption and money. So I had initially pegged it as, oh, how much do people spend on alcohol, especially now with back when there were more strict lockdowns and people were handling the stress in different ways. And it turned into more of a story about how we use money to spend on our vices and as a coping mechanism. And so alcohol was one of the many ways that people use to cope, right? It could be shopping, it could be gambling, it could be buying too much fitness equipment and never using it, whatever it may be. And it was really interesting because the more I interview people for that particular episode, there were four stories in total. The more it was really about, oh my gosh, I'm using alcohol as this tool to, I think one of the guests was talking about being more cool in social situations. This was another one was talking about. It was a way to show off my wealth. It was a way to not have me smoking pot all the time. Like things like that. And then it became, when I asked her in the aspect of money, then it was like, oh yeah, yeah, it did affect my money. But why I'm really obsessed with the human condition was because the questions end up being more than just about money. Like it was almost secondary for many of my guests. Another story that I'm thinking about is one of my guests was talking about inheritance stuff. So her late father was worth about, I think, 5.5 million. And she was embroiled in this lawsuit for, I believe years with her stepmother over this inheritance. And so it became a question of how do I properly grieve my father when I am fighting with my stepmother. It wasn't at the end of the day, even she said it like, it wasn't actually about the money. It was what the money represented. And so for me, in, in that case, the human condition was more about relationships right, and the alcohol was about vices. How do we cope? And so I'm really just really, really interested in these kinds of questions because that, I, for me, what I've seen anyways is that it becomes a, I don't wanna say easy way, a more approachable way to talk about money with somebody who may not even want to start that conversation with themselves.

Rebecca Wiggins (13:30):

Yeah. It kind of reminds me a little bit as you're talking about the importance of, or, or even maybe what is the role of our professionals as financial counselors to understand what is the underpinning of some of these money behaviors that don't align with our values. And I'm thinking even specifically, like if you know me, you know, I'm obsessed with the Enneagram as like a self-awareness tool. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but there's a lot of those kinds of, you know, the DISC or Enneagram, or like Myers-Briggs any of those kinds of, for lack of a better term personality assessments, there's a ton of them, but really like, what is the role of helping our clients understand where some of that past trauma or insecurities or self doubt come into play so that they understand and have more self-awareness around this intersection again, of money and emotions and the behaviors of that. Does that make sense?

Sarah Li-Cain (14:26):

Yeah. Yeah. And when you were saying that, I was thinking about a conversation I had very recently with a friend of mine and we were talking about, she's also a money writer, and we're talking about how we write things about like, oh, here's what you do. So these are steps to take. And what we both realized was money or lack of it, or having a lot of it is really a series of decisions that you make. And so on the surface seems really simple like, oh yeah, spend less than you make, invest the difference. Right. Those really kind of simple steps. But like you said, there's all of these, emotions, situations, you know, systemic issues, for instance, that really cloud our decision-making. And so on the surface, money's like, yeah, yeah. Make some of these decisions. But really during the day when you were talking to, let's say clients, if you're a financial counselor, like what are these things are driving those decisions. And if you can figure that out, that would help maybe not simplify, but make it easier for them to understand how to make it better for themselves.

Rebecca Wiggins (15:24):

Yeah. Make those connections between their behaviors and their emotions or where that's coming from. Absolutely.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (15:29):

You really talk about some heavy stuff and pretty deep stuff as well with being able to connect with clients. I would say too, that especially when we get into the addictive behaviors or even deep emotional or trauma behaviors, that it's really important to have referral connections of marriage and family therapist or of a psychologist. And quite honestly, sounds like even social workers with alcohol or other drug type addictions, to be able to make sure that we as financial counselors, aren't stepping in and trying to heal those, but working in tandem with other experts in their field. What are your thoughts around that?

Sarah Li-Cain (16:09):

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. I think when I approach certain topics on this show, I'd like to think I'm humble enough to know that, like, I don't know everything. I'm not going to admit to knowing that. And especially as, as someone who is also a writer and will be doing more financial counseling, I want to know that my interests are to help my clients. Right. That's it. And if I can't do it, then clearly there's someone else who can, or at least I can provide the resources to that for that person to go find their own help. Right. And so, yeah, partnering up with even nutritionists. Like sometimes I think that might help if they feel like health is a prohibitive cost, that that could be really helpful. And then there's tons of community resources out there that I'm always looking out for. If I ever need to suggest something to somebody,

Rebecca Wiggins (16:57):

Great point, Mary. And I think Sarah, the beauty of what you're doing too, is starting the conversations. And as Mary said earlier, having a conversation that really resonates with people and meeting them where they are in their authentic experience in life and their struggles and the messiness of life. Right. And so then what you're saying is, that's great, That's a starting point to bring people in. And when it gets to that point, I think it is important as professionals that we understand who to refer to and that we're building those relationships as well. So we can really help people on that journey.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (17:26):

And that's actually one reason that I really like the AFC, is because it educates those who are becoming counselors to know what those lines are, because if you don't know what they are, you can naively do it and mean no harm, but it can actually cause harm. But on the other end of the scope, I also love how it trains those of us, and I'll put myself in that category, that like the technical, that like the numbers that really like more the CFP side or investments, right. And I've had financial planners come to me and say, oh, I had a client cry in my office. And I'm thinking, that happens like every session with me. Right. That because you're talking about deeper things. And so at both ends of the spectrum, I really feel like the AFC can help further someone along that path and, and give you the resources you need to know when you needed to refer out or when you should keep talking and let them cry and work through whatever is going on with them at that time.

Sarah Li-Cain (18:27):

What I really enjoyed about the financial counseling book, and in that section in the study guide, was talking about checking in with your biases, like, because you do, everybody has their own biases. And it's really a matter of understanding, okay, like where you coming from in terms of your decision-making, your financial situation, what informed it and being really aware of it so that it doesn't really affect how you help your client. And I really liked that because I don't ever want to get to that point where I'm feeling prescriptive or trying to nudge someone in a direction that they're not comfortable with, or that's really not the best for them, even though my intention is I really, really want to help you. And so that's something that I definitely took away from studying the AFC so far. Is that, okay, like, I don't want to be paranoid about it, but I, I should be aware of it so that it can help me with my clients.

Rebecca Wiggins (19:18):

Okay. So Sarah, I'm really curious about something. You have resources on your website for the Enough Number guide and the Values-Based Spending Guide. What are those resources? How'd you come up with them and how are you encouraging people to use those?

Sarah Li-Cain (19:33):

So the Enough Number Guide actually came about because of the Values-Based Spending Guide and the Values-Based Spending Guide came about because a number of people were like, I don't know what I should spend my money on. You know, what should I do? And I hate the word should when it comes to any type of advice. And, and so my answer was always like, well, what is it that you really value or place importance on? And I talk about values in terms of not things, but actually, it's a, it's a concept or a feeling or an idea. And so even within that, it could look different for someone. So for example, my, one of my big values is autonomy. And autonomy for me, looks like self-employment right now, because I can mostly dictate my schedule and the projects that I work on. For someone else, autonomy could be, I want to be able to have access to different kinds of supermarkets and be able to buy healthy food that may cost more or less. And so, because of the way we see our values, then we can budget in a way that helps us spend money in those ways that aligns with it. Because, once you do, you tend to regret spending money less on certain things. You tend to buy things less impulsively. Of course nobody's perfect. And, and that can happen. And how that came about with the Enough Number was then the next question people were asking, we were like, well, how much is good for me? Like how much should I make? Like, what is, what is a good amount I should aim for with groceries? And there's tons of articles about here's what you should spend according to this percentage. And again, my answer was like, it really depends because it can, it can get really messy and complicated, pending your family situation, where you live, what your lifestyle is. And so that guide really walks through what your values are. What are some of the things that you want to spend on that aligns with it? And then we talk about dollar amounts. Like for me, my philosophy has always been, let's look at your life, let's look at what you truly want, how you want to build this life. And then money becomes almost secondary after you figure all that stuff out.

Rebecca Wiggins (21:41):

I love that too. Cause I think sometimes people it's sort of like back ends into, what do you need to make to live the life that aligns with your values? And I think sometimes we, as a society, of course we have this like, well more is better. So just try to always make more money, but there is kind of this balance of what is enough for you to live the life and have the freedom that is important to you. And as you're saying, those values change depending on who it is, but having that number in mind might actually be lower than most of us think. And, you know, because you do start to realize what do you actually need and want, and it could be different than what your neighbor needs and wants. And that's kind of interesting too. So I love that you've created those guides, where can people access them?

Sarah Li-Cain (22:26):

So if you go to beyondthedollar.co, you can find either of those guides more specifically beyondthedollar.co/spending is a values-based spending guide. And then beyondthedollar.co/enough is the enough number guide.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (22:40):

Sarah, at the end of each interview we like to get the guests two cents or biggest takeaways for our listeners. If you had one piece of advice to offer our financial professionals, what would it be?

Sarah Li-Cain (22:49):

Oh, wow. I would say in general, find ways to have your client trust in their abilities to figure out what's best for their situation, because ultimately they are the ones who are going to execute on the plans, using the resources and really figuring out whether or not what they're going to do is going to help them with their lives. And so if there's any way that you can help them with instill that sense of trust and ultimately confidence in their money, that would be wonderful.

Rebecca Wiggins (23:21):

Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us on the show today. Will you just tell our listeners where they can connect with you?

Sarah Li-Cain (23:27):

Sure. So you can definitely connect with me on beyondthedollar.co. If you want to find any articles I've written on them, kind of all over the place. I can just search for Sarah Li-Cain and you'll see a bunch of bylines popping up with my name.

Rebecca Wiggins (23:39):

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Sarah Li-Cain (23:42):

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Mary Bell Carlson (23:43):

Rebecca. I really enjoyed talking to Sarah, probably because this is really my lane as well. I love getting into the deeper conversations and not just answering the technical questions, but she really pulls into some very heavy discussions, right? Heavy materials that people aren't necessarily comfortable talking with. But when you start to open up and communicate about these things, it's a healing process for people as well. And like you mentioned earlier, like what do you do to heal those traumas? And she's talking about it, she's making it acceptable to the public, through her podcast, through writing about it. And I just really admire her for that. I also admire her for actually taking the AFC exam. I think that is so important for people, not just coaches and counselors that are directly helping individuals, but also those that are serving the industry in one form or fashion, no matter what you're doing, I feel like it just enhances your education. And also helps, you know, like we talked about earlier, who are the service providers that I need to be connected with? Who, what other resources are out there? If anything, sitting for the exam and, and being a part of a community, broadens your scope and broadens your horizons and helps you realize you're not the only one out there and you're not in a small niche. That it's really important to connect with others. And that's what AFCPE is all about.

Rebecca Wiggins (25:07):

Yeah. I loved this conversation. It reminds me just how cool our professionals are. Like everybody has such a different area or, you know, the fact that she's a writer and how she's using the AFC and, and then using that expertise in those conversations that she's having. And I would encourage people to check out her podcast because some of these conversations are just very enlightening and so real, as you said. So I, I love talking with her and I really loved the idea of the Enough Number and how sometimes we think we just have to keep accumulating to be successful, but there's almost no end to that. And so to actually find out that there could be a number that you can have some freedom or relief in aligning with your values. I think that's a cool way to look at it.

Outro (25:50):

If you enjoyed the show today, please give us a rating and review and be sure to share it with a friend. Real Money, Real Experts is available wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you want to continue the conversation, consider joining the AFCPE membership community. As an AFCPE member, you gain access to resources, networking opportunities, and professional development that supports your work and your career. Learn more at our website, afcpe.org.