Real Money, Real Experts

Preparing to Pivot: Career Lessons with Jacquie Carroll, AFC®

• AFCPE® • Season 6 • Episode 132

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On this episode of Real Money, Real Experts, Rachael DeLeon and Dr. Brandy Baxter sit down with Dr. Jacquie Carroll—educator, researcher, speaker, and Accredited Financial Counselor®—to talk about the power of the pivot.

Jacquie shares her non-linear career journey, from higher education and HR to financial counseling and now launching her own legacy project, GameKraft, a financial education game designed to help people learn in engaging, accessible ways.

Together, they explore:

  1. Why pivots—both planned and unexpected—are essential to personal and professional growth.
  2. How AFCs can prepare clients for an ever-changing workforce.
  3. The importance of leaning into community, mentorship, and side hustles.
  4. Why success isn’t about a straight path, but about being ready when preparation meets opportunity.

Whether you’re considering a career change, supporting clients through transitions, or just need inspiration to embrace the unexpected, this conversation is full of wisdom, encouragement, and practical takeaways.

Show Notes: 

2:15 Jacquie’s Early Career

6:40 Discovering Financial Counseling 

12:05 Embracing Career Pivots 

18:20 Building Community & Connection 

24:45 The Birth of GameKraft 

32:10 Legacy & Impact 

38:00 Jacquie's 2 Cents

Show Note Links:

Learn more about Jacquie's journey!

Connect with Jacquie on Linkedin!

Learn about GameKraft!

Jacquie's favorite resources!

Want to get involved with AFCPE®?
Here are a few places to start: Become a Member, Sign up for an Essentials Course, or Get AFC Certified today!

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Rachael:

Welcome to Real Money, Real Experts, where we bring you interviews with leading financial professionals, sharing their stories, their challenges, and their advice for helping people manage money in the real world. I'm your host, Rachel DeLeon, Executive Director of the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education, or AFCPE.

Brandy:

And I'm your co-host, Dr. Brandy Baxter, Accredited Financial Counselor, AFCPE member, and your 2025 AFCPE Board President. On every episode, we take a deep dive into the topics and stories that you care about the most, helping clients, building community, and growing in your work and your career.

Rachael:

Jacquie Carroll is an accredited financial counselor with a doctorate in higher education leadership and a master's in multicultural and bilingual education. She is a sought-after national speaker and was in instrumental in the research and development of an award-winning financial education program. Her research on instructional design and learner outcomes has been featured in the Merlot Journal of Online Learning and Teaching, the Consortium for Student Data Retention Exchange, and Magna Publications, the Teaching Professor and the Online Classroom. As a researcher, educator, speaker, and financial coach, she has found the perfect fit to her research with practical applications as she currently serves on AFCPE's Research to Practice Task Force. Welcome, Jacquie.

Jacquie:

Thank you, Rachael. How are you?

Rachael:

Fantastic, and so glad to have you on. Thank you so much.

Rachael:

Hey, Jacquie. Okay, so let's

Brandy:

Hey, Jacquie. Okay, so let's get right to your fun fact. I see here that you are fluent in German and English. How did that come about, and do you often find yourself using multiple languages in your travels?

Jacquie:

You know, what's funny is I So I was born in Germany. And so German is actually my first language. And then English was my second language. And then Spanish was kind of my third language. And I actually learned Spanish in Germany while I was visiting my grandmother. And she told me, she said, you know, Jackie, if you learn Spanish, I'll take you to Spain. And then what happened was, so I'm busy learning Spanish. Then we went to Greece and I'm like, okay. So that's kind of how that works out. But anyways, I do enjoy different languages and I do like to travel. And so, you know, German, English and Spanish gets you really across the planet quite good. And it's because I like to eat and try local hotspots, you know, as far as foodie things. Again, it comes in very handy. That's awesome.

Brandy:

You know, Jacquie, serving with you on the board for the past three years has truly been a pleasure, but I have to admit, I have not heard this tale before about the travel to Greece while trying to learn Spanish living in Germany. Thank you so much for sharing that. Y

Jacquie:

You know, it's just, I kind of, I think it's going to start our session out really well because life is just like that, right? I mean, you plan for one thing and something else happens and being able to pivot, I think is the key.

Rachael:

Absolutely. Jacquie, before we kind of talk about your pivot into your latest chapter in your career. I'm curious if you kind of take us back to the beginning. One of the questions we have for a lot of AFCs, because people come to this profession from so many different areas and background, what was it that drew you into financial education and what led you to the AFC?

Jacquie:

Oh, thank you so much. Here's the thing is my journey to an AFC was kind of like my trip to Greece and Spain. Yeah. I'm going to talk about the practical applications, and I'm hoping that that will be practical for our listeners. But definitely, my journey to the AFC was not a straight line. My first love is teaching and learning, and that itself had included a lot of pivots. But when I think about it, really everything I did in my career related back to helping people learn and access information and knowledge that they want. And what is kind of funny, as I reflected throughout my career, I noticed that the one thing people really want to know about all the time was money. And so it's one of those things. When I started out learning styles and best teaching practices, I was a study skills tutor and I learned different ways people learned. And that really, really opened up my idea of thinking because I always liked learning and it seemed to come pretty easy for me. But I also knew individuals that kind of struggled with things, whether that was a topic or I anything like that. And so learning that people learn in different ways was really a huge asset as I moved forward. That one kind of supported the way into going into training and development. I went into HR and in HR, it allowed me to leverage that knowledge to help people better understand their employee benefits, the retirement, disabilities, things like that. I had even conferences for where a lot of the women said, I just don't know anything about finances. And we had a women conference at the college and things like that. The other thing I was always good at was money. And so each one of these pivots from HR, for example, brought me into financial aid and veterans benefits at another university because I was good with money, you know, good with the employee benefit program and the retirement and all those type of things. And that brought me into financial aid. And that's where I started really, again, I was like in that love of learning and teaching, which I was able to work with students and with professors and and with faculty and with staff. And I love that. From there, then I kind of shifted into nonprofits. And so, for example, you know, even though I started out working with one nonprofit where I was providing training all across the United States to financial aid administrators who are trying to work with students and really help those students, a lot of times first generation students, access financial support and all the resources that they need to successfully complete their education, their college education and things like that. So up to that point, really, a lot of my work had been in large group sessions, you know, day long training events and things like that. And the funny thing is, I really didn't see myself as a counselor, so to speak. That shift didn't happen until there was a major shift in higher education. And that was a shift to that included like many nonprofits was like around 2008. the great recession where there was a shift and people started going, wait a minute, financial education, financial knowledge, financial wellness, financial literacy, those are important. So I pivoted and started working with these nonprofits to help support financial success, right? And it's at that point I was required to have an AFC for those positions. And so I got the AFC and I have to tell you, ever since I've been involved with AFCP. I just love it. It's such a great organization. So anybody out there listening right now and going, you know, I don't know if I see myself as a counselor or I don't know if, you know, don't worry about that. Lean into the organization, get to know everybody. And if it's you, you're going to fall. It's going to follow suit. But I also learned that people and other professionals really value the AFC. When I was talking with students and we were trying to create new programs and things like that, we say, hey, what's important to you? They wanted an AFC. They want somebody. They want credible information. I think it goes back to the fact that right now everything is so online and you have AI giving you help with financial education. I don't know what they're all called, but I know they don't have an AFC. I know they're not certified. I think really my journey is not unique. I know I've listened to a lot of the podcasters you had on, but I think it can be relevant to existing AFCs and then also for individuals who are considering becoming an AFC. So for example, for existing AFCs, I think it could be important to really start thinking about how they can support their clients in their financial decision-making because one of the things that's happening now even more than ever is the workplace and employment trends are constantly changing. The Department of Labor says, hey, 30% of the labor force is going to change actual careers, not jobs, and that's every year. That's not like, you know, five, that's every year. That's a lot, right? And so it reminded me actually of a great presentation I saw at the AFC symposium. I can't remember the presenter, but Rachel, you probably were there. But the gist of the presentation was an opening session and it was about how different generations approach employment. And I remember they noted like baby boomers, they approach it like a marriage and Gen X, it's more like a short-term relationship. And then millennials, they're just dating their employers, you know, and And so I thought as an AFC, you know, that's something to recognize as we support those individuals, whoever our clients are, we need to help them to be prepared to pivot, right? Being prepared to have that idea. And then really the other thing was, is just, I think for individuals who are considering becoming an AFC as their next pivot, the career changes that come from everywhere and you might have experience and background that will lend itself to that. And so I think if you're listening to this podcast and thinking, maybe I should get into this field. It sounds really like a great field. I'm a helper. I'm passionate about this. So really, that's what I wanted to do with this podcast is kind of showcase both the changes are coming, but really helping people be prepared to pivot and helping AFCs be prepared to serve their clients.

Rachael:

I love that perspective. And the pivot, you know, there's so many different kinds. Some pivots are really intentional pivots where, you know, it's time to shift or make a change and other pivots we don't see coming. And so how do we prepare to go into that in a way that where we feel maybe not always prepared, but ready for that new chapter? I

Jacquie:

I think all of us have been the recipient of both prepared and unprepared. Again, that's life, right? So that makes it exciting. You know, if it was always predictable, we wouldn't have any fun at all.

Rachael:

Oh, I love that perspective. The other thing you said that I think is really important is you entered this career not thinking of yourself as a counselor. And honestly, in your bio, it's funny, Jackie, I feel like you wear every hat. You're a researcher, you're a counselor, you're an educator. But I do think that's really important in this space. I think a lot of us wear a lot of different hats. And when you think of AFCPE, that counseling is that center word. But the community is so rich with all different types of professionals. So no matter what hat you wear, if you're passionate about personal finance, this is really a home for you. And I think that's a really important distinction to make. And I'm glad you see that too.

Jacquie:

I think Rachael, you bring up an excellent point because I think when you look at overall, my passion and purpose was helping people get the information and the knowledge that they want so they can make a change in their lives. Whether that is to a group of hundreds of people or one-on-ones. I didn't see it myself, but it ended up being applicable. So I think that's a great thing to point out because that's going to be applicable to many people. Until you make that pivot, you're going to go, oh, how come I didn't see that sooner?

Brandy:

You know, I want to go back a little bit, Jacquie, to when you were sharing your story of how you became an AOC. And I want to just let our audience know that we did not pay Jacquie to say such beautiful words about her experience as an and especially when she talked about how valuable she finds the symposium. But I'm glad you said that because I think sometimes when our listeners are tuning in, we do hear great stories about how people become AFCs, but it is part of a pivot. And so maybe you're listening and you know someone who's looking at a career change, consider sharing with them about how becoming an AFC could be a good position for them to move into. But Jacquie, you talk a little bit about pivoting. And I've been chomping at the bit ever since Rachael read your bio. And I want to dig into this thing that you're doing now, this new pivot of yours, GameCraft. Tell us a little bit more about that. Well,

Jacquie:

Well, it was one of those pivots I didn't see coming, right? Because I'll tell you a little bit, you know, I've had in the past, you know, I always have had side hustles, right? Like, for example, my first side hustle was teaching. I taught for 20 years because that's my passion. When I began teaching, again, early on in the classroom, I heard people struggle with money, students struggle with money. Those were discussions in the classroom. As soon as they start struggling with money, they would drop. And so I really knew that this really impacts everybody all the time. But one of the things that I really realized is that when I started teaching more about personal finance and money management and things like that, that there really was that whole idea of math anxiety. And this math anxiety permeated everywhere, right? So, you know, going back to my passion for helping individuals learn and understanding different learning styles, I realized that Get9 and other games could be a powerful tool for learning because they're interactive, engaging, they involve problem solving. And really when used effectively, games can help individuals overcome overcome their fear of math and develop a positive attitude towards learning. And so I had the opportunity to say, well, what do I want to do with this project? And so that's why I kind of decided, you know what, actually, I want to do this as a legacy project, something I can leave behind, something that my children maybe take over or my grandchildren or something like that. And that's kind of how I ended up here.

Rachael:

That's fantastic. Now, Jacquie, do you have background in building games?

Jacquie:

Great question, Rachael. I know nothing about game development or anything, what that community brings along or anything like that. I started, I went to a conference about a year and a half ago, and it was in Germany. And it's the largest game conference put on by Gamma. It was called Essenspiel. And I was not even prepared for what hit me there. There was like 250,000 people from all over the world came to this conference center, and it was all just tabletop games. No digital games, just stuff you play on tables, you know, board games, dice, cards, and the energy. I just loved it, right? I'm like, oh, I love this. And what I did there is, you know, I brought my prototype and I started talking to everybody. You know me, I will have no problem asking questions, making connections. And so I leaned into that skill set and I made some connections and I used those connections to kind of then continue on to get the game printed, developed. I found a logistics company, shipped. Now I'm setting it up on Amazon. I'm working to go to a game conference and do a presentation myself there and demonstrate the game. But I have to say the same thing that I would say for people considering to become an AFC. Lean into your communities. That's really a very effective way to prepare, to pivot, whether that's professionally emotionally, financially, whatever people I find are always willing to help, you know, and I learned that when I entered the AFC PE community, and I was just figuring out trying to figure out who I am. There was a lot of mentors, a lot of peers, a lot of people who are like, yay, let's help you find who you are. And the same is true in this community. So I've had a lot of support. Because I am constantly learning, you know, creating the game, really, Brandy was the easy part. That's like, Two other games. I have two other games that I'm working on that I'm going to pilot test here in about a month or so with some college students. But that's the easy part. The hard part is navigating the tariffs, the shipments, understanding the new acronyms, you know. So there's so much. But I find that really leaning into the community that you're going into or that you're in does help. I mean, there's mentors, there's peers, and they have resources, everything in those communities always want you to be successful. Same with us at AFCP.

Rachael:

So you talked to us a little bit about leaning into community. And I don't know, in terms of how you got to this pivot, if you felt stuck or you were kind of learning and leaning in at the right time. But for a lot of us that are coming to a crossroads, especially if you're towards the end of a career, you're just in a career that isn't serving you, what advice would you give to someone who's feeling stuck? T

Jacquie:

That's a great question. I'm not sure if I have the answer for that one because that's like, you know, it's very deep. But I'll tell you what I did. And so for me, it's always been I like project-based stuff. I'm good for three to five years. You know, if I'm doing something, developing something, working on something, I like to get in there. I'm creative. I'm innovative. I can conceptualize. But then when it's all done and it's ready, I'm like, okay, I'm going to do it. then I'm kind of moving on to the next thing. So I know that about myself. So based on that knowledge, so you can look at my LinkedIn and you can see, oh, she's changed jobs every five to seven years or something like that. You know what I mean? Or maybe, and so, but I know that about myself. And so based on what I know about myself, that is when I leveraged my side hustles, you know, whether that was teaching or consulting in order to stimulate those things in myself, that I needed to have stimulated that I might not have gotten, for example, at a place of work where it's very more structured. These are the things we want you to do, et cetera, et cetera. So again, when I'm thinking about preparing for pivots, again, I think personally, we can lay that foundation and that can be financially, whether that's saving some money to be ready to pivot, whether that is for some people, it might be retirement. Barbara O'Neill wrote that great book about flipping the switch. I read that and she had some great things in there about how she said, well, people told me I need to retire, but I'm not going to. And I'm like, good for you. I love that. And I just saw that on, I think, maybe LinkedIn or something like that, that a lot of people that are getting closer to their end of their careers are actually now starting to do things that they really enjoy, that they're passionate about, right? And so, of course, you know, coming from a place of privilege that did take some financial planning, but it also is that personal and emotional experience. stimulation that you need to feed within yourself. And so again, those side hustles, what I find is that you make contacts that are personal and that are emotional so that when you make the transition from one place to another, you're not left hanging without any of those community connections. You have already started to connect to a new community and you can leverage that. So I find that that kind of helps. And so I want to say I have to give you another shout out because it's all about the symposium. Last year, when I was thinking about my side hustle and thinking, oh, am I just going to sell this game? And I said, no, I want to create a legacy project, right? I ended up doing, I think, a network session. I mean, a network chat on teens to tots, supporting financial literacy for kids. But the networking chat before that was about how to support AFCs in their business. And so I attended that one. And that was just a great resource. And one of the suggestions that came out of that discussion was just a reminder to connect with like your local small business administration, because they provide a lot of free support and resources. And there I thought, you know what, I think I'm going to make this a legacy project. I do have other resources, you know. So I think it's all about the resources, recognizing what's available to you, finding it, not having the fear, of asking for help and And then just kind of going from there. I kind of hope I answered that, Rachael.

Rachael:

No, you definitely did. And I would say in five to seven years when you have this legacy project all built, I feel like your next pivot might be career coach.

Jacquie:

Thank you. It's funny that you said that because I was thinking this morning, oh, this will be, you know, this is my last pivot. I'm like, actually, I have no idea if this is my last pivot. So we'll see what happens, you know. That's what makes life exciting.

Rachael:

It really does.

Brandy:

You know, Jacquie, it has been a delight chatting with you. And I appreciate that you have just been so candid with our audience about the reality of pivoting and leaning into it. I think that is a great, great takeaway for us. So here at the show, Rachael and I have started a new tradition where we like to ask our guests to share their two cents. We're building a knowledge bank here, and we'd love for you to contribute to that. What would be your two cents?

Jacquie:

Being prepared to pivot, I think, is just something that's part of the new norm, right? We're no longer, you know, secure in any jobs and any positions. AI is moving things around, you know, automation. I mean, things are changing. So being prepared to pivot, I think, is very important as the world of employment continues to change. And I think it's important for AFCs to help our clients be prepared to pivot, whether that's professionally and personally and all that stuff. But I saw a great thing on LinkedIn and it was something like about a journey, a career journey. It says, oh, you start at 21 and you fail at 25 and then you start over at 26 and then you struggle and then you get better and then you'll be different than everyone else. You get in the wrong career and then you find your lane and then you find the right career. So the key is really whether you start over at 30, 35 or even 45, there is still success available and you can still succeed. I think That's one of the biggest things. And it always reminded me of life is full of pivots and luck. Sometimes people go, oh, you're so lucky. But luck really is what happens when preparation and opportunity meets. And that was not me. That's like a Roman philosopher that said that. I think maybe Seneca or something like that. But I think that's the thing, is do the best you can, lean into your communities, and go for it. You don't ever know what the future is going to bring.

Rachael:

Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing this with us. For those who are listening, how can people connect with you or learn more about this current pivot that you're in?

Jacquie:

First of all, thanks for inviting me to the podcast and to everybody listening. And first of all, I hope to see you in November at the symposium. So if you want to talk more about pivoting, just pull me to the side and we will chat. If you don't attend symposium, you can go on my LinkedIn or you can visit GameCraft. And it's spelled G-A-M-E-K-R-A-F-T dot U-S. And the craft is referring to the German word strength. So game strength, you know, strength through playing things. I should have started with that, right? But anyway, so connect with me on LinkedIn. And I'm always happy to share. I love being able to get people the knowledge that they want. That's my mission in life and help them Understand that anybody can learn. We all can

Rachael:

We can all learn. And not only is it applicable to our work in financial counseling, coaching and education, but our lives as professionals and human beings. And there were so many great tidbits that we can take away today to apply in our own lives.

Brandy:

GameKraft, oh my goodness, guys, please stay tuned and pay attention. So when she lets us know that that's available, check it out. I definitely see that as a resource for our community, for our clients, for personal use. Super excited that she shared that. And I'm probably a little biased having Jackie on the board was such a treat today, getting to know more about her outside of the work that we have done together at AOCPE. So I totally echo yourself sentiments, Rachel. This was yet another great episode for our audience.

Rachael:

The opinions of our podcast guests are their own, which means that their stories, views, or lived experiences may differ from yours or mine. However, the one thing you will always find on this show is a common thread. Our guests are passionate about helping people with their money to improve their lives, and they believe in upholding high standards for the clients and the communities that they serve. We encourage you to tune in to Real Money, Real Experts with Open Curiosity. Why? Because it's often times and the conversations where viewpoints or stories differ from our own that we learn the most.