Susan Cousins and Dr Peter Blundell reconnect for one of the final #TherapistsConnect Podcast episodes

In this episode, Dr Peter Blundell welcomes Susan Cousins back to the #TherapistsConnect podcast as one of his final guests before the show ends. Susan — a long-time supporter of the Therapist Connect project and the most-listened-to guest in the podcast’s history — joins Peter for a reflective and deeply personal conversation.

They begin by catching up on life since their last interview in 2020, with Susan talking about the challenges she’s faced over the past couple of years, especially around family, routine, and how routines help ground her during difficult times. She shares how the pandemic altered her experience of social spaces and her sense of vulnerability returning to in-person interactions. Susan reflects on how this has shifted her relationship with community, public life, and her own sense of safety.

Both speakers explore how broader social issues — like rising tensions around immigration, race, and societal change — have affected them personally, including Peter recounting an incident of homophobic abuse on public transport, and their worries about a more hostile public climate. They discuss how constant media coverage of negative narratives affects well-being and their sense of security in everyday life.
Buzzsprout

The conversation shifts as they talk about creativity, personal reinvention and art — Susan shares how art and map-making have become a meaningful outlet for her, bringing connection to places she cares about and providing emotional comfort. Peter reflects on his own creative practice with collage, emphasizing the joy of experimentation and process over perfection.
Buzzsprout

Towards the end of the episode they begin discussing career transitions and identity shifts after moving out of traditional counselling roles, with Susan offering insights for listeners navigating changes later in their professional lives.

#TherapistsConnect is a platform for connecting therapists.
Website: www.Therapists-Connect.com
Twitter: @Therapists_C
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Facebook: @TherConnect

Origins of #TherapistsConnect

Transcript

Dr Peter Blundell 0:00

Hello and welcome to the penultimate episode as a Therapist Connect podcast. My name is Dr. Peter Blundell and this is, uh, one of the last few episodes that I'll be introducing. So. As I mentioned in the last, uh, short podcast episode, our podcast has been running for six years now and we've had some really special guests over the course of those years, and we did have some plans. For the last few episodes of the podcast. We had quite some grand plans of the things that we were gonna try and do. Um, unfortunately, life has got in the way. And I haven't been able to have the guests or the type of episodes that I wanted to have, um, as we kind of bring the podcast to the end of its life or the end of its season. Um, however, I have managed to record a very special episode. For this month this is with a very special guest who has been a support of the Therapist Connect Project from the very beginning. It is also someone who has had the episode of our podcast with the most listens. It's been the most popular. And so I thought it'd be lovely to have them back on, um, as a guest. And they are also a really, really good friend of mine. So I'm very happy to introduce this podcast episode where I chat to Susan Cousins about her life and work since we recorded our last episode in 2020. And we also talk a little bit about the future for her and the future of the profession. Hello Susan and welcome back to the Therapist Connect podcast. Um. Just before we kind of, uh, delve into it, I suppose, people will know by now will have said on the podcast that we're, we're bringing this podcast to an end. And, um, one of the reasons why I wanted to have you back on the podcast was one, we had such a great interview, uh, anyway last time, but it also was our highest listen to interview that we've ever had on the podcast. And clearly a lot of what you talked about resonated with people. So I thought it'd be great to have you back as a guest for our farewell. Um, so yeah, so welcome back and, um, yeah, I'm looking forward to chatting to you today.

Susan Cousins 2:13

Well, I'll tell you what, Peter that's made my day. People actually wanna listen to what I've got to say. Um, so that's great. But I mean, you know, you and I have been on a real journey together therapist connect. And of course with making sense of microaggressions. Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's been many, oh, we've been involved in so much, really haven't we?

Dr Peter Blundell 2:35

Have, I mean, we've been involved in quite a few different projects. Some of them have come to fruition, others haven't. We've kind of constantly had ideas, haven't we, around different things. And I think it's, I think it's nice to kind of be able to come back together and yeah, I suppose have a chat and catch up with you and see where you are at with everything really. And I know there's a few different things that we wanna talk about, but I suppose my first question is just around how, like, how are you at the moment? Like how, how is life for you?

Susan Cousins 3:00

Um, life for me is, it's been a really tough couple of years actually. It's, um, family stuff, which I probably won't talk about, but, you know, really tough. And I think that for me, and I dunno if it's helpful to other people routine is something really important. It, it, it kind of grounds me, holds me. And if that slips, like I sort of thought, you know, when you, when you are, you are not going into work. You are working, working from home, you know, I, I always make myself get up, have a shower, get dressed as if I was going to work. To me, those kind of things are really important. And I'm not saying they're important for other people, but they're really important to me. And those, like, those, those kind of routines and are just, you know, fundamental to my life, really. They always have been. And it may be that things I cling onto. So eventually, you know, in a couple of years when maybe my working life might change, um, I'm sort of hoping to let go of a bit of that, let go of a bit of routine and see where I, it's a bit like taking water with what those wings off that you're swimming with.

Dr Peter Blundell 4:04

Maybe take or or stabilize us off a bike.

Susan Cousins 4:06

Yeah. That's great. Take the stabilizers off the bike and see where I am. I think. Yeah. So, 'cause I, I sort of have, I cling to that a bit, so yeah, tough year, tough couple of years. Really tough family wise. You learn a lot don't you, going through those things and you learn a lot about other people who's there to support you and actually who isn't there to support you. Yeah. Um, which is also useful information. Um, yeah,

Dr Peter Blundell 4:30

It's interesting I was thinking then when you were talking about routine and we met during the pandemic, um, and recorded our last interview during the pandemic and I'm just thinking about how much routines were turned upside down during that time. And yeah, I dunno about you, but it's taken me quite a while to maybe not to return to the same routines but kind of. Go back to some kind of regularity, I think. 'Cause there was quite a few li years I wasn't going into the office and I kind of, um, didn't have those routines that I'm used to.

Susan Cousins 5:04

No. Uh, and I, I found I'm mean, I'm a, I'm, I think I, I've, I'm a learned extrovert, so I'm actually quite an introvert and I've learned to be extrovert. And I think that I was one of the people that really benefited from lockdown and I mm-hmm. I absolutely loved it. I didn't realize I would I didn't really know that and about myself at that point, but I suppose I really quite enjoyed not being around people and I didn't know that about myself. And I loved being in the park. Um, but I, and I found it really, really difficult to, go back into work. I found that hard going back into working in person, even though I absolutely, you know, I mean, I, I enjoy going back into work. I enjoy being with, with the people I work with. A wonderful team. I feel very lucky. Cardiff University is a beautiful place. You know, it's where you walk into work through the park while I do, sorry. I walk into work through the park, these beautiful buildings, and I always think, gosh, I'm so lucky to work in a place like this. Um, but I, I became, I think I felt quite vulnerable when it all opened up again. I felt vulnerable in town. I felt vulnerable. Suddenly there weren't so many people in the park. I felt less protected. I don't use the park as much now. Um, so yeah I, I think, um, I definitely feel more vulnerable now in public spaces. And I, I think. I think that's to do with, um, the whole climate of society at the moment about immigration and race and it's, it's there all the time, but I'm going off on one now, so just stick to your question.

Dr Peter Blundell 6:36

Well, no, I mean, I suppose all these things are interconnected. I suppose I felt like not, maybe not everyone's experienced this, but I felt like there was a, a great sense of community during the pandemic. I, I mean, I felt that online with Therapist Connect, but also in my local community. I mean, we had kind of neighbors doing fitness classes in the streets. There was like 90 year olds and the five year olds kind of there doing it, you know, people were saying hello to each other, um, mixing and, and while socially distancing, but you know, kind of saying hi to each other. And I think people, not a lot of people, I know lots of people were still going into work, but a lot of people kind of working from home. Yeah, I think people were around more so, yeah, when I'd hadn't really thought about that. But when you're saying there's less people in the park and things like that, yeah, I suppose. Yeah, people about, for that nine to five in the office not kind of out and about getting their exercise and stuff that they were doing in, in the pandemic maybe. Yeah.

Susan Cousins 7:31

Yeah. And, and I found it quite, I think for people, um, I dunno if I'm using the right language here, but homeless people I, I sort of felt they sort of suddenly returned into, into, into the, on, onto the streets. And that was a really, for me, felt like a really sad time, um, that people were suddenly, they were being housed and suddenly they weren't being housed. And that felt awful to me. And they seemed to be lost in a way that, I mean, they'd lost their routine, hadn't they? They were sort of in hotels and being looked after to a certain extent by society, and suddenly they were flung out there. It's a fend for themselves. And I thought that was quite shocking. And, and also quite if people are ill and misusing substances and that kind of thing, and they become quite threatening at times. And I found that quite, I felt vulnerable and you never know what people are gonna say. And I, I don't mind people shouting at me, but I don't want people to be racist to me because mm-hmm. You know, because they're upset and they're unhappy. So yeah, I felt it was all, ah, it felt like going onto to a movie set of some sort of awful movie is, I dunno what it felt like for you, you know, going into town for the first time.

Dr Peter Blundell 8:46

Time. Um, uh, yeah, it's, it's quite hard to remember going back to that point. But I think one of the things I remembered was teaching students online and then. Coming back in and sometimes actually meeting people in the room, in person for the first time and how just having a different experience of people, as I'm sure they had a different experience of me. And it did take me quite a while. Probably quite a good few weeks, maybe months, to kind of re uh, get back into what it actually felt like to be in a room with people and kind of teach a class of students, you know, versus see some faces on screen, some cameras off, some, chat boxes. All of those different types of things had just become the norm. And I and I didn't, I think I didn't do a class in person for about two years. I think it was, maybe it was like 18 months or something like that. So it felt like relearning a whole skill again which was very strange.

Susan Cousins 9:43

Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of adaption, wasn't it, that we needed to go through. Yeah. And, and it was quite shocking really, wasn't it? I think. Well, I mean, of course there are, there are people that, I mean, there were terrible things that happened to people under lockdown. I, I, I felt extremely privileged, really for many, many reasons. And I, you know, the struggling that people must have had, and I mean, I, it's endless, isn't it? Aside from the fact that people lost their lives. Um, I was people in difficult relationships and not being able to, yeah. I mean, all that kind of stuff, and,

Dr Peter Blundell 10:15

and, and that not being able to socialize. And I know I had quite a few friends who live on their own. And that kind of feeling so isolated and maybe not having a you know, a park to go to where they can see other people or whatever, you know, and, and actually just spending months and months on your own without, without, I mean, yes, being able to call people maybe, but again, not having that physical interaction. Yeah. Really, really played havoc for people, I think.

Susan Cousins 10:39

Yeah. Anyway, we're back to some kind of normality now, aren't we? I dunno. Well,

Dr Peter Blundell 10:46

I mean, you've touched on some of it there. What's going on in the world at the moment? It's the if this is normal, I'm not sure I want this either,

Susan Cousins 10:53

no, uh, it's really difficult and I, I dunno, I don't know about you, Peter, but I am, I, I really enjoy listening to the news I have done for years, and I listen to it a lot and particularly, you know, politics and, and what's going on. And I, I've just, you know, I never thought I'd get to a point where I think, well, actually, now you've gotta stop. Every morning they go on about asylum seekers and immigration and all these things, and, and it's just constant. I mean, I, I. I mean, it was really bad in the sixties. I mean, it was, it was fifties, sixties, I mean, it was seventies. It was much, it was more unsafe in the streets that people could felt they could do anything, say anything to you, be violent towards you and all those kind of things. But now it's just like this bombardment of, of, um, you know, anti anything really, yeah. And it feel, it feels like the media has kind of got caught up in something that's quite you know, giving a certain message for a certain reason. And without getting too political about it, I think it's, it's really frightening. I'm sure a lot of people feel like that.

Dr Peter Blundell 12:03

I think it's really scary and I think for me, what I've witnessed. Is, and I know these things were there already, but it has emboldened people to become more vocal. And it affects lots of different areas. So me and my partner have powered homophobic abuse, getting off the verbal abuse, getting off the train in our local area. Recently, I haven't experienced something like that since I was probably, uh, a lot younger decades ago. That kind of, you know, in the middle of the day kind of being shouted at by people as, as we're coming off the train. And I've had lots of black brown students who have talked about that they lived in Liverpool for. 20 years and have felt safe in the day on the streets shopping and stuff. And now all of a sudden they're, they're having comments made at them and, and shouted at them in the street. And so, yeah, I do think there's a lot on social media. There's a lot online and there's a lot in the news, but I also think that it is escalating in people's day-to-day lives as well. Which is scary. It's very scary.

Susan Cousins 13:10

Well, I mean, I'm really sorry that happened to you. And it's, it's kind of shocking, isn't it? And it, it's, I mean, it's deeply upsetting. You know, and then you have to kind of get through the day and think it's kind of like, you know, it's there, you know, it could happen and then it happens to you and it's kind of unbelievable, isn't it? I mean, I dunno how you actually felt when that happened to you, but I always feel like in a state of shock, really, for my initial feeling,

Dr Peter Blundell 13:32

it, it is definitely a state of shock. I think that. What is this situation? Is this somebody shouting something they're gonna walk on? Is this, could this turn into a violent situation? How would I react? How would I respond? Did everybody hear that or is it just, is it just me? And then moving through that, and then I suppose like that feeling of, I wish I'd said something. Why didn't I stand up for myself? Um, you know, I was there with my partner. Why didn't we talk about it and decide what we were gonna do? But I suppose in that moment you're in a state of shock. And fear really in terms of what, what is this situation and what's, what's gonna happen here? Um, I think as well, I think because it happened in our area where we live, so it wasn't like we were visiting somewhere and didn't know, the area and what it was like. It was, yeah, it was very local to us. So, yeah, it's, um. It was, yeah. Not a nice experience.

Susan Cousins 14:33

No, and there's definitely is that sense in them. And I feel far more vulnerable than I've done for a very, very long time. You know, I go into shops and I, you know, and I will go and have a coffee or somewhere and I, and there might be a black or brown person serving somebody, and you can just see it. They don't wanna be served by this person, and you can just see it in their faces. And then for, for the majority of people are really polite and lovely regardless of their views and what their views are. Um, the majority of people, it's like, I know 20% of the population or something, and, but that 20% can be quite dangerous. And it can, it can make you feel very vulnerable. And when you see, oh, I don't know you see when you see it happening to somebody else. I find that kind of worse when it happens to me. And it happens to my brothers or my sisters. I've always felt that more, yeah, so it's pretty awful at the moment. And I, I dunno about how you find ways of managing it.

Dr Peter Blundell 15:29

Well it's, it is, it is d it is difficult. I think I like when you were saying like kind of not watching the news, I feel, I feel like, um, in some ways it's, it with the news on as well as hearing about people's lived experience of it, it just constantly feels like there's no escape from it. It's just there constantly all the time. And I suppose I try and find solace in those groups and communities where I feel like people are, are trying to push change and, and make a difference. Yeah. But sometimes that doesn't feel like it's enough. It feels like a not enough's happening. Yeah, it's hard.

Susan Cousins 16:04

Yeah. And in some ways, I don't know, it feels a little bit like we've gone back in time around the whole

Dr Peter Blundell 16:10

Yeah.

Susan Cousins 16:10

Quality, diversity and equity stuff. I, I. I don't know that's the feeling I get. And also, you know, you and I are both working in kind of inversive commas and I feel I'm still in the caring profession, even though I'm not. Yeah. Not directly, not like counseling and stuff.

Dr Peter Blundell 16:25

Yeah.

Susan Cousins 16:26

But it still feels like looking after people and looking after community. The community which is the university and the people within it, and keeping everybody's reasonably safe. So yeah, I don't know. I dunno. I, I, I, art for me is a, something that really, I don't think I could do without.

Dr Peter Blundell 16:47

Um, well, it, yeah, I think it's interesting 'cause I know we're both, I picked up art, at similar times, didn't we? And so, although we do different kinds of things and it's interesting when I tell people that I kind of do, so I do like collage art now, but when I tell people about it, people like, oh, did you pick it up in the pandemic? And I said, oh no. Interestingly I said it was after, not, yeah, after the lockdowns and all of that kind of stuff. You think I would've needed it during, but it was kind of after all of that. And I think I'd spent so much time on a screen that I needed something physically and tactile to do rather than something else online. You know, I feel like reading, watching, listen, it feels like it's also a device. I've kind of picked up collage as a way to kind of disconnect from all of that online stuff.

Susan Cousins 17:37

Yeah. And, and there's something, same for me when I sort of kick myself and that I think, well, why wasn't I doing that in the pandemic? Yeah, but I agree. I think I, I thought, why is this happening after the pandemic? I mean, I very, very occasionally I might sell a painting or, um, I, I kind of, I give away quite a lot of my art. But, in a couple of years time when I might not be working, um, I probably will start selling prints 'cause I know that people are beginning to want to buy my stuff and, uh, that gives me a huge amount of pleasure. But it, it is that, it's the, it's a, it's, I mean, collages, well it's, it's a very physical thing, isn't it? Yeah. You're connected to, also, you are connected to your body, to your hands. You kind of, yeah, you are moving a lot more. You're, I dunno, making choices. Your brain's being used in a very, very different way. And I think that it's like learning a whole new language and learning a language is supposed to be very good for you. And art is a whole new language, isn't it?

Dr Peter Blundell 18:35

It absolutely is. And I think I, it's been interesting to see your journey. 'cause I know your style's kind of shifted and changed in terms of your painting, hasn't it, over the time. Um, and you did some, I mean, you've had like your artwork on the front of book covers and cards and kind of all kinds of things, haven't you?

Susan Cousins 18:53

I've got my cards out there and that's great. Do you know, it's, it's just like, um, to me it's just about the process. You know, I put, I put things out online in my ass and I think actually that's rubbish. But I didn't really mind because in the back of my, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, um, I don't have to think about this. I'm putting it online. It's not very good. But people can see that sometimes my stuff's good. Sometimes it's not good, sometimes it's rubbish. That's okay. But that might help other people think well. I can do both. I can get some cards published and they, they sell all over the country and some, and they sell in New York and amazing. You know, and then you can do some rubbish stuff. And I am, I think if, if I'd gone to art school, I would've been trained to stick to one way of doing something. I am, you know, I get enthusiastic about stuff. So at the moment I'm doing, I dunno if you've seen my stuff. I'm doing maps. So maps are everything to me. I'm reading about maps, looking at books about maps, thinking how I can make better maps. And then I go so enthusiastic about it and then, um, everybody goes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Peter Blundell 19:57

That really frustrates me. So I've not done a lot of art training, but I've been on some different workshops and things like that. And the message constantly is, if you want success, pick a style, stick to it focus on it, build up a reputation around it. And I kind of like. Gosh, the thought of it just sucks out any enthusiasm I have over, over art of just doing the same thing over and over again, but slight variations of it. I mean, the whole point of it for me and particularly collage, is that I can draw images from practically anywhere and combine them in a, in a gazillion million different ways to create something completely different. And sometimes with my collage, I don't even stick the items down, so I just put them together, take a photograph, then rearrange them in a completely different way and take a photograph so that I've got, you know, 10 different versions of the same pieces. So, yeah. I also, I think for me, a lot of the workshops that I've been on art-wise are very focused on technique, which I understand 'cause a lot of people are, you know, very focused on the type of art they wanna create. But again, I get quite frustrated because a. For me of the process is about like how I feel during it. So the outcome, yes. Sometimes it's aesthetically pleasing and I'm happy with that and other times it's not particularly, but it still means something to me. Even if people look at it and think, well, I don't like that, but I don't really care what other people think about my own art,

Susan Cousins 21:22

Because I think you know, I have cared so much about to, to counseling and, and look, caring for the people and looking after other people and still in that role at the, at the university and, um, try my best. And it's a sense of freedom and, and there's, okay, if, if you wanna be successful, do this or, you know, pick style, stick to it, keep drawing the same old peach 500 times or something, right. That doesn't really throw me as I sit there, drawing a peach 500 times is not really gonna make my day. And, uh, but the other, the other assumption is that you want to be successful,

Dr Peter Blundell 22:01

uh, yes. Or, or earn, uh, money from it or something like that. Yeah, yeah.

Susan Cousins 22:05

I do loads of little courses. Well, I've gotta stop that, because the messages that they're giving all the time, the message that you are getting is like, you've gotta do it this way.

Dr Peter Blundell 22:18

Yeah, yeah.

Susan Cousins 22:19

And you don't then find your own way, do you?

Dr Peter Blundell 22:21

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, for me, that's with collage especially like that experimentation is really important. So I'll try something completely new. Um, and it's that process that I then find interesting. And then almost when I've, it's almost when I've got nearly good, that's when I kind of go, okay, I'm gonna try something now I kind of, I kind of never get to the stage of perfecting it. 'Cause I'm like, oh, okay. I've, I've enjoyed that, learning that technique. Now I'm gonna go and try something else.

Susan Cousins 22:50

Yeah. Why not? I mean, it's a bit like people do gardening and nobody says to them, oh, you know, you've gotta like plant the same trees or the same plants every year. Yeah. Or you do this and you've gotta do that and if you do, you'll get a really brilliant garden. It's like, no. Yeah. So it, to me, it's um, a way of life and I am, you know, I mean, somebody came around the other night and bought load prints off me and I was so chuffed and they said, they said to me, do you realize that you are really good at art, don't you? And you could do this, and you could do that. And you know, I, I was like thank you very much. It's lovely for you to say that. And then when they left, I, I got quite stressed out. Oh no, I should be doing this and I should be selling them to that shop down the road because, and I thought, no, no I'm really happy to have almost given these waiver, a couple of quid. They went off really happy 'cause it was a map of where they live. I don't need to.

Dr Peter Blundell 23:48

Yeah it really, that resonates with me. So, I don't really show off a lot of my collage work, but one of my friends found out that I was doing it and asked to commission something which was so flattering, you know? Yeah. They, they, they've got a place in the house where they wanted to put it and things like that. So after my initial joy at kind of excitement of that, I then went through the same process that you just described there. I was so stressed because I work quite intuitively, so it I don't really have a plan and it kind of whatever comes out the other side comes out the other side. Um, but someone was asking for something, not very specific as in the details of it, but, but the. Colors the feeling that she wanted from it. And so I then had to really, I had to try about four to five different ways because I was happy with kind of what I'd got. Whereas that's not normally I'd, how I'd, how I'd work. So yeah, if I imagine if it was a career or something I was doing all the time, those shoulds should not do it this way, do it that way. What about this, what about that would just come into it? And it would probably take out not all of the joy, but it's definitely some of the joy from it for me, I think. Yeah.

Susan Cousins 24:58

Well we've both got a passion, haven't we? So, you know. Yeah. You like moving bits of paper around and the colors and textures and everything you can do. And I like, well the moment I'm, I kind of like felt tip pens, you know, geo brush pens and I love pastels and stuff. And and in fact this weekend, you know, I'm just about to do another course and I, and then, so I'm gonna try and hold onto maps. 'cause I love doing maps because there are places that I love. So I feel very connected to these little maps I'm doing.

Dr Peter Blundell 25:24

Mm-hmm. And, um.

Susan Cousins 25:26

So right by where I live, they're building a little wine bar place. It's really cute in the park. And I thought, I'm looking mad. And I'm thinking, oh, I can see that. I can see that. And certain birds are going there and there's, they've built a pizza oven thing and, and it's right by loads of amazing trees. So I think that map thing might last because when I'm walking around, I'm, I'm sort of, walking to work and I'm thinking, oh, I really like that building.

Dr Peter Blundell 25:51

But that, I think that's the great thing, isn't it? Is that you can explore and experiment. And I suppose there's, I mean, all those themes we've talked about there could be quite similar themes that happen in therapy. Uh, you know, creating shifting, changing, moving away from people's expectations of you. Yeah. And kind of finding new ways to inspire yourself in life, you've mentioned, well, yeah. So you've mentioned there actually a couple of times this idea of, you know, this, this kind of stage of your career really. And maybe, yeah, what might happen in the next kind of 2, 3, 4, 5 years or whatever. Um, and I suppose I'm wondering, um, I suppose if you've got any tips for anybody who are, who's entering that stage of their career, and then what kind of that might look like for you in the next few years?

Susan Cousins 26:40

One of the things I really was to say, teachers when I left counseling which was probably about eight years ago, you know, as a, as a, as a role, within the university that was a huge shock. I mean, it was, it was, it was like I moved from a language that I knew all about. And I'd worked really hard. And I felt comfortable in what I was doing, but what I didn't realize was how hard it was. And I. So I would, I really kind of lost my respect really for the reg, well, I don't want to call regulators, but the BACP and the UK A whatever. They all, I can't remember things now, but anyway.

Dr Peter Blundell 27:21

Yeah,

Susan Cousins 27:21

because they impose a sort of structure on counseling, which is absolutely ruthless. It's ruthless and expect people to see five people, five clients a day, to have 10 minutes to write notes about somebody. So you see somebody at 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock, you've got somebody else walking into your room. In between that time you, you see somebody for 50 minutes and 10 minutes, you've got to do a call form or something or whatever, and you've got to write notes about somebody who might be a really complex case, and then you're moving on to the next person and you are doing that all day. I mean, I have never worked as hard as when I worked in counseling, and I think it's really, really bad for people. To work that hard. And I don't know anybody unless they get paid huge amounts of money. He goes from meeting, to meeting, to meeting, to meeting, to meeting five days a week and has no break and hardly gets in. To the loo barely has a lunch unless they get thousands and thousands of pounds. I don't see it.

Dr Peter Blundell 28:27

But that, I wonder whether that might be why A lot of, I think I've probably get the statistic wrong, I think it's like 70 or 80% of members of the BACP in private practice. And I wonder whether. And part of it is that reason that you are stating there is that in an organization, the pressure to kind of see so many clients is immense. And actually people try and value that, that free freedom to kind of reg manage their own day. Obviously that's then difficult to, depending on what you charge and, and how many clients you need to see and stuff like that. But yeah.

Susan Cousins 28:59

Yeah. And, but I also see know, people, counselors are doing that to them sort of imposing that on themselves and understand that too, you know, I understand that. And I don't, I, I personally don't think that the, the BACP and the other organizations have addressed that enough in terms of what it actually does to people. Well, it's quite, um, I don't know. It doesn't seem to me to be a healthy way of working. And I, I have always used, we should at least have 20 minutes in between seeing the next person, shouldn't we? I mean, we're talking, you know, I. You and I will probably be seeing the most vulnerable people because at the time when I was working, I was right at the top of my, level. I was a senior accredited supervisor and whatever. Um, and I was seeing the, the more serious cases. And anyway, so what I'm saying is I didn't realize the impact that was having on me. And I, I, I might have said this in the previous interview, but my son said to me a week after I learned left that job, he said, mum, you can just tell physically in your whole body and the way you are now that you've not, you're not doing that job anymore.

Dr Peter Blundell 30:00

And, and I suppose sometimes maybe people don't even realize that is happening to them until they leave and then they have that sense of Yeah. Oh gosh. Or like a weight being lifted, I suppose. Yeah.

Susan Cousins 30:11

Yeah. And I think I do miss it. So I miss the clients. I miss I miss that process of seeing somebody through something really difficult. Or being alongside somebody through something really difficult. I do really miss it and I miss the students. Um, I miss that connection with them and the staff. And I used to do staff counseling but I wouldn't go back to it now.

Dr Peter Blundell 30:31

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Susan Cousins 30:32

Um, and as for the, my future, the tips that I would give people What I see happening around me is a kind of denial. And I'm not saying that I don't do it myself, but a denial of one's owns experiences. So, I mean, this morning I was really irritated with my brother and I, and I started to tell myself, oh, don't be irritated. You know, there's blah, blah, blah, and there's this, this, that. And then I thought to myself, no, be really irritated. 'cause that was irritating. And like I see that. A sense of denial, particularly around being expressive, being angry, being really joyous about something and being accepting that climate change is a, is a threat to our lives. That racism is a threat to our lives. The way we the fact that we're, sorry, this is a bit depressing this time I'm talking about now, but the way that we are not producing our own food in this country is a threat to our livelihoods and the kind of ignoring of things that are happening in the world and switching off. And I understand it. I totally understand it. And when I say I'm not watching the news, I mean, I'm not what, I'm not listening to the news for eight hours a day, so I think to me, and I see it happening all over the place, it's kind of almost like. Switching off in a denial. And, and also it's very easy, isn't it, to go into social media and or whatever you've got on your phone. Podcasts and things like that, and can switch off from, from reality. And I think that it's not very healthy. So I, so I suppose if I was going to give advice to people, is try not to switch off.

Dr Peter Blundell 32:16

Is that different? I think you're talking about between managing the amount of stuff that you're exposed to, uh, which might make you feel overwhelmed versus completely avoiding, uh, the world and kind of the big issues that we're facing. And there's like some maybe middle ground in between there I think. Yeah.

Susan Cousins 32:36

Yeah. There's a middle ground in between. And I suppose what I, when, when I see people kind of. Slightly in denial, or I'm not saying I don't do it myself 'cause I do, or switching off from things, then what? They're switching off other parts of themselves at the same time. You can't, you can't do that. You can't say, well no, climate change isn't happening. It's not gonna happen to me. It's not happening. And if you use that amount of denial around it, then you're also switch switching off a part of your, well, you know, this, you know, you switch off parts yourself by doing that.

Dr Peter Blundell 33:05

Yeah.

Susan Cousins 33:05

Yeah. And I think, so I suppose my advice to people is to try and stay within a sense of reality without overwhelming yourself.

Dr Peter Blundell 33:14

Mm-hmm. I've got, we're coming to the end, but I've got, I wanted to get these both of these questions in. So I'm gonna, is there I, last time you were on the podcast, we talked about that, your work and the things that you've done, but I wanted to know whether there was anything from your career that you're particularly proud of that maybe we haven't heard about before? We don't necessarily, or people the audience might not know about. 'Cause I know that you've done a lot that isn't always publicly known about. So, so any particular points for you that you've, you've really, you're really proud of?

Susan Cousins 33:46

Well, I think I'm proud of switching my career just like that and going into something completely different. And now I'm even doing something even more completely different. Um, and being and actually being able to do it, you know, kind of on like, on a sort of intellectual level. But I mean, it was really, really difficult. So I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud of switching. And I'm also re, I am really proud of, because my mother used to say to me when I was younger, I used to paint a lot. And she used to say to me, you need, oh, you need to go off to, to India or something and go around and paint India. And my mother was white, you know, she would spend a lot of time in India. And um, and she used to tell me I was brilliant at art and I didn't believe her. And, um, I never believed what she said about it. I just thought it was rubbish really. But anyway so I suppose I am really proud of that. So I'm proud of switching careers. I'm proud of the fact that I actually did it overnight. Almost. Somebody came to me and said, I want you to do this job. And it been three or four weeks. I was doing a completely different career. So I'm proud of that. I love it when people, I met somebody the other day and they said they'd read what, a couple of my books or whatever, and that it made a real difference to their lives. So they'd, they felt. More at ease with their lives, more at ease with themselves and less caught up in, anxiety, tension, feeling they've got to be this or that way. So feel proud of the, actually I come, I come to think of it, feel proud of quite a lot. But I suppose the biggest thing is that it is my family and my children. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, and I'm proud of all loads of stuff. Actually.

Dr Peter Blundell 35:27

Well, but yeah, but there is loads and loads of things and I, I just know there's, there's loads of other things that you've done in your career, not everybody that knows about as well, which, um, yeah. Um, and all of that deserves celebrating. 'cause you have done a lot. No, I think, well, gosh, we could, I think I could spend another hour chatting and, um, talk about all these different topics. Um, but I suppose just to finish off then, is there anything, yeah, I suppose the only thing we haven't talked about that you had wanted to mention, because I know we'd had a couple of questions that we, we prepared and stuff. Was there anything we'd, we hadn't covered that you wanted to talk about?

Susan Cousins 35:58

No, I just want to say thank you really, Peter. 'cause we've been on a, on a journey together and I really, yeah, I mean one of the things I really did enjoy was therapist connect. I mean, that's the thing, you know, when I did that online day when we were sort of typing out answers to people or something.

Dr Peter Blundell 36:12

Yeah. Yeah. And again,

Susan Cousins 36:13

that was around use of technology in a very different way. Yeah. And I absolutely, I mean, I remember that day and I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the process of typing things out to people and not actually talking to people.

Dr Peter Blundell 36:25

Yeah, it was on it just so for people, listen, it was on Twitter and you'd spent an hour kind of answering questions on a specific topic and there were students and therapists. And at that point, you know, we had, hundreds of people kind of getting involved in that, in, in that lunchtime kind of question and answer session. Um, and it was great. It was really positive. And I think, you know, not many of the therapists that were on therapists connect to using kind of Twitter or x whatever you wanna call it now. But yeah, there was some, um, you did loads of stuff for us. Like you did a book event you did the podcast, you did the Twitter stuff. So, um, you were, you were thoroughly involved in all of us stuff, but, uh, during the pandemic. So thank you for, for all your contributions and I'm glad that we'd be able to have you back on the podcast as a part of the farewell to the podcast.

Susan Cousins 37:07

Farewell to the podcast. And thank you so much for everything, Peter.

Dr Peter Blundell 37:11

Thanks Susan. And I'll um, chat to you soon.