#EP162 - The Scale Up Season: Building A Growth Mindset With Yasmine Khan - Business Psychologist

Welcome to episode 162 of the marketing freaks podcast and the next installment in the scale up season. 

In this episode, Jon is joined by Yasmine Khan, a business psychologist who specialises in working with founders and senior leadership teams in high-growth companies. 

Yasmine shares insight into the overlooked human and psychological aspects of scaling a business and how mindset is a key driver of growth alongside tactics and strategies. 

Key learnings from this episode:

• Fear is the biggest barrier in professional and personal growth. Understand how to recognise and confront these fears to move forward.
• Discover how adopting a growth mindset can be the key to unlocking business success and overcoming fear of failure.
• Gain insight into the power of self-awareness and self-regulation for founders and leaders, particularly in recognising stress and burnout during high-pressure growth phases.
• Learn how aligning leadership teams and fostering collaboration can prevent conflict and stress, creating a cohesive environment that drives sustainable growth.
• Discover how micro feedback and real-time coaching play a crucial role in reinforcing employees' significance and driving continuous learning, without relying solely on formal training sessions.
• Gain insight into how confronting common fears can propel both personal and business growth.

Transcript

0:10: Hello and welcome back to the marketing freaks podcast. 
 0:13: And in this week's episode, I'm talking to Yasmin Khan, business psychologist who specialises in working with founders and senior leadership teams in high growth companies. 
 0:24: So often, when we're talking about scale, we talk about the tactics and strategies you can deploy to help you achieve that. 
 0:31: But what about the people side of things? 
 0:33: And what about the mindset that's needed to genuinely drive growth in your business, or indeed, your career so really hope you find this episode interesting. 
 0:42: If you do, as always, please consider giving us a follow or a subscribe on your favourite podcast platform. 
 0:48: You can also watch the video version of this episode on YouTube and let's get started with the episode. 
 0:55: thank you very much for making the effort to come over and see us. 
 0:59: My pleasure. 
 0:59: I'm glad you invited me. 
 1:01: Thank you, John. 
 1:01: Well, I think this is a really important topic. 
 1:05: So for context, the series that we're running at the moment is all about business scale business growth. 
 1:13: And we're talking a lot about tactics, marketing tactics, performance marketing tactics. 
 1:19: We've spoken to brand specialists, pricing specialists, all sorts, But we haven't talked about mindset. 
 1:26: I'm glad you brought that up. 
 1:27: And that's what you're here today to talk about. 
 1:30: Yes. 
 1:31: So, , first off, like, just give give us an overview of who you are, What you do what you specialise in. 
 1:40: OK, so who I am? 
 1:42: , I'm a mother of two adults Now. 
 1:44: They give me great pride and joy. 
 1:47: Keep me grounded. 
 1:48: Keep me loving. 
 1:49: Keep me learning. 
 1:50: , and besides that, , I'm a business psychologist and coach. 
 1:55: I've been doing that for the last 20 years. 
 1:58: The initial spark really came from childhood. 
 2:01: , just how people were different yet the same and trying to work that out. 
 2:07: , and then I went on to study it. 
 2:10: I went to , Royal Holloway and then London School of Economics. 
 2:15: and what I've started to do is specialise in helping people get out of their own way. 
 2:23: , so anything that's limiting their performance, , and if that's what they want to do, if they want to achieve growth, which is sustainable, which gives them happiness and joy, , and to excel in life, , I'm there to support them. 
 2:41: What was it about business psychology that interested you and not, you know, other other kind of niches. 
 2:49: Like Why? 
 2:49: Why business was it about going into a business and understanding that aspect of it that really interests you? 
 2:58: I just think it's because the environment is constantly changing, just being at the cutting edge, having that competitive advantage. 
 3:05: I just think it's the real world that we live in, and that's what excited me the most. 
 3:11: , in fact, I did business studies rather than psychology to begin with. 
 3:17: So I think marrying the two was very exciting. 
 3:21: Yeah, that's that's really cool. 
 3:23: So in the context of a growing business and, like we were talking before, how intense that can be sometimes. 
 3:31: Why is psychology or business psychology so important? 
 3:38: , it's so important simply because it's just made up of people. 
 3:43: So if there's any growth in the business, then it has to come from those people that are working within it. 
 3:50: And that is down to leadership, down to the decisions that you make, the relationships that are involved. 
 3:56: The teamwork, the dynamics, the culture, the change. 
 3:59: These are fundamental to the running of the business. 
 4:03: And if those are not running well, then that's going to create problems for the business problems, for profitability, problems in competitive advantage in a time where you need to be. 
 4:15: I don't know how many steps ahead these days. 
 4:18: You cannot lag behind. 
 4:20: Yeah, that's a very, very good point. 
 4:23: And I think, do you think it's something that gets overlooked? 
 4:26: So I know as an owner of a business that most most owners of most businesses want to grow their business like most do. 
 4:37: I'm not saying everyone does, but most do, and most business owners in that situation will budget forecast. 
 4:46: Look at what marketing tactics they need to deploy. 
 4:49: You do all of that, but actually not. 
 4:53: Well, this is an assumption. 
 4:55: But how many people actually really think? 
 4:57: About what? 
 4:58: About how I'm addressing this. 
 5:00: And what have I got? 
 5:02: The right mindset. 
 5:03: Am I ready? 
 5:04: Do I need to consider anything within myself? 
 5:08: Like, is it overlooked? 
 5:10: , I I think the seasoned Founders C CEO s. 
 5:15: They're very good at being self reflective. 
 5:19: , but it can go by the wayside. 
 5:22: , you brought up mindset. 
 5:25: , and I think it's Carol. 
 5:28: She coined the term growth mindset. 
 5:31: There's two kinds of mindset. 
 5:32: There's the fixed mindset which, , shows limitations. 
 5:37: And there's the growth mindset which is constantly learning curious reading, wanting to expand, and that goes for their teams as well. 
 5:47: So they thrive on learning from failures, whereas the fixed mindset might not even come out of their comfort zone because they are scared of failing. 
 5:58: So there are many people who do reflect, But then again, when it gets tough, people forget. 
 6:05: It's almost like going to a yoga class or doing meditation. 
 6:09: You're great at it when you're in class, but when it gets tough, you forget all the fundamentals, and that's exactly the time that you need them. 
 6:18: Yeah. 
 6:19: Do you think it's particularly evident with founders or people who are very entrepreneurial in their, , spirit, I guess, on that mindset Because, yeah, I think to do well. 
 6:33: And this this would be really interesting to get your take on it, actually, but in my experience founders that are very successful. 
 6:39: They're so obsessed, so focused, so kind of one track minded in terms of what they're doing. 
 6:47: There's almost no space for anything else. 
 6:50: So do you think the Do you think the nature of that entrepreneurial spirit conflicts directly with someone who's a bit more considered, particularly in the early stages? 
 7:02: I don't I don't know. 
 7:03: That's just a thought. 
 7:05: That's an interesting thought. 
 7:06: I think in the beginning, when you're like a start up, you need exactly that energy when you're single minded. 
 7:13: , sportsmen, sports women have the same sort of attitude, very single minded about what they need to achieve and all the great that we know be it Beethoven, Einstein, whoever very single minded about what they wanted to achieve. 
 7:27: And things do go by the wayside. 
 7:28: We are only human. 
 7:29: There's only certain amount of hours in the day it becomes an issue, and it's an issue when things start falling apart, and that's when we need to address them. 
 7:38: But we don't want to wait until that happens, right? 
 7:42: We want to do it beforehand. 
 7:44: So people like myself, psychologists and coaches. 
 7:47: That's when we come in handy to address these issues before they become issues. 
 7:51: But you're quite right. 
 7:53: There are people who are hyper focused on success and what needs to be done, and they manage it very well. 
 8:00: Others don't do as well, and that's the fundamental difference in who we are. 
 8:04: As human beings, we have our own thresholds. 
 8:07: There is a certain level of self awareness that needs to be involved. 
 8:12: Unfortunately, that isn't what we're taught, and even at this age. 
 8:18: We aren't so self aware and I think that would be a great starting point to be self aware of what's going on in our minds and our bodies. 
 8:26: What changes, how we're reacting to the environment and also self regulation. 
 8:32: Are we getting angry? 
 8:34: Are we getting stressed? 
 8:35: Are we burning out those sort of stuff that those are important as well? 
 8:40: It's really interesting. 
 8:41: , so you work with founders, But you also work with senior leadership teams, , and various different levels in a business. 
 8:51: So having worked with many, many different businesses, what's what's your view on? 
 8:59: Might not even be a question that can be answered in such a simple way. 
 9:03: But what does good look like when it comes to a senior leadership team that is properly ready for growth? 
 9:12: Yeah, what the characteristics that that That's a great question. 
 9:17: I think in my experience, it's about the S L t sting that ship together. 
 9:27: performing and transforming that agency. 
 9:33: That company, that firm and they all have to be aligned. 
 9:39: And when there's misalignment, it's very obvious. 
 9:42: , there is conflict. 
 9:45: There is aggression and people pretty much working individually those those. 
 9:52: companies are very stressful to work with him for myself, so trying to align everybody on that ship. 
 9:59: So it's steered in the same direction. 
 10:02: That's when you get super success. 
 10:04: , and how do you do? 
 10:05: It would be the next question, that question, Because there's I think it's easier said than done when you got lots of big characters in the room, which is quite typical of a fast growing business and the senior leadership team. 
 10:17: There's big characters. 
 10:18: There's opinions. 
 10:19: Everyone wants to push it. 
 10:21: How do when you start and no one go? 
 10:24: No one starts off going like wanting a fractured set of relationships. 
 10:30: But they just over time sometimes cracks appear, don't they? 
 10:34: So when you start to see those cracks, or you start to push ahead and it doesn't quite gel, easier said than done when it comes to aligning everyone on the same path, right? 
 10:46: Yes. 
 10:46: Yeah, good point. 
 10:48: , I mean, if if if we took it a few steps back where you would start from is what are the key capabilities that your firm company needs for rapid success? 
 11:01: Scale up change, , transformation. 
 11:04: That's where you would start then you're hiring the hire, those people with those capabilities, right? 
 11:10: But that's like building your house from scratch. 
 11:14: what you're really saying is, Well, I've got all these people, but they're not working well together. 
 11:19: How am I going to align them? 
 11:21: Well, sometimes it might be a case of getting 23 people working together on a project. 
 11:28: that they were previously in conflict with us, so they have to come to a solution amongst themselves. 
 11:33: There's no other way of forcing change and Cooper operation until they're forced to work together. 
 11:39: There's renewed energy. 
 11:40: There's renewed respect. 
 11:42: Of course there's going to be conflict, but they are then headed towards the same objective. 
 11:48: I think what also really works well is when you go on these away days and you're given time to explore, , understand each other. 
 12:00: But one of the best ones I've had is where the owner has said. 
 12:05: Do you actually want to be here? 
 12:08: Or do you want me to pay you to leave? 
 12:10: I thought it was brilliant. 
 12:13: And so that was him addressing a senior leadership team that it just wasn't working. 
 12:19: And do you actually want to be here? 
 12:21: Exactly? 
 12:21: It was a brilliant question. 
 12:23: Straight to the point. 
 12:24: Do you want to be here and why do you want to be here? 
 12:28: Because he wanted to know if they were aligned to the success of the company and where it needs to be. 
 12:32: It's one thing to perform your duties on a day to day answering those emails. 
 12:37: Hundreds of meetings. 
 12:38: But it's another thing where you want to see transformation change, scaling up success that requires a different beast. 
 12:48: And that's what he was aiming for. 
 12:50: How hungry are you? 
 12:51: I mean, if you don't want to be here and you're not that motivated, then do you know what? 
 12:55: Let's shake hands, No harm done. 
 12:57: Off you go and I'll get someone who does want to be here. 
 13:00: That yeah, very good point. 
 13:02: And that comes back to that. 
 13:04: One of the next questions I was going to ask is, let's say you're, , progressing up the ranks. 
 13:11: You want to get to a senior level? 
 13:13: , you know what? 
 13:16: What should you be thinking about in terms of, like, what should What's the attitude of of that person that I or that level that I want to be at, like, what is it? 
 13:26: And I think your point around. 
 13:28: I think the most important thing is you actually have to want to be doing what you're doing, because if you don't and you're not 100% in and you're not enjoying it fulfilled by it actually wanting to do it, then it's only ever gonna get so far because that's I think what carries you through, Yeah, when it gets a little tough or when you get knocked back or when you. 
 13:52: lose a pitch or when you like. 
 13:54: Stuff like that happens because it's always going to happen. 
 13:57: If you're not 100% wanting to do what you're doing and believing in what you're doing, then, yeah, Is that correct? 
 14:05: Or is that me? 
 14:05: I guess I'm a You've You've touched on a few points, OK, if you're going to promote someone, then set them up for success, right? 
 14:15: , and so everything has to be in place for them to succeed. 
 14:21: If you're asking the question, do they actually want to do the job that they're being promoted for then very clear communication about about that. 
 14:30: Is this what you want? 
 14:32: Do you think you can be successful? 
 14:34: What does success look like for you? 
 14:36: So it's very basic human psychology there. 
 14:39: Are they motivated, right? 
 14:41: Is that what they want? 
 14:43: Does it tick their boxes as well as yours? 
 14:45: And this goes back to alignment? 
 14:47: Do you, as a firm, have the same values as the person that you're promoting? 
 14:54: So these are very good questions that you can get direct answers from that person, and I think that's an area that's lacking for a lot of people who are busy scaling, working all the hours. 
 15:10: These are the things that get forgotten, those simple conversations and even simple things, like acknowledging that a good job was done and people feel the unfairness of it. 
 15:21: They work so hard, and leaders forget to acknowledge them. 
 15:27: And it's only a couple of words. 
 15:29: And I think it's very important to let your people know your team know what a great job they're doing. 
 15:36: Feedback, micro feedback as well or micro coaching on the job? 
 15:40: Very important. 
 15:42: People need to know where they're at. 
 15:44: It really does help in terms of their performance by micro coaching, do you mean? 
 15:51:  jumping on things in the moment and not like big bits of formal feedback, but going OK, well, have a little think about what happened in that meeting. 
 16:01: How could we possibly have gone into that better or like in the moment, quote unquote live. 
 16:10: That's exactly what I mean. 
 16:11: I think a lot of it's got lost since Covid people are working from home coming into the office, especially the youngsters who need that nurturing. 
 16:20: You know, I have an example of where someone was on the phone to a client. 
 16:26: They had come into the office, they were on the phone to a client and,  was saying, OK, yes, I'll do my very best to to do what you required. 
 16:35: I'm quite busy. 
 16:36: I've got a lot of other clients, but I will get back that now. 
 16:39: Luckily, the manager was hovering and said, What do you think you conveyed to the client? 
 16:46: She said that I'm busy, but I'm going to do the best for them to make them feel important. 
 16:50: He said, No, you just made them feel unimportant, saying that you've got loads of clients going to shove you in there somewhere. 
 16:58: So I loved that because within one minute not only was he able to catch that moment but was able to transform that moment with micro feedback and micro coaching that that young person was reminded that how important that client is, , so that's basically That's really interesting. 
 17:21: Yeah, I love that. 
 17:22: I love that. 
 17:23: I don't think it's,  I don't think training is a thing that I think there's a big misconception with training and that it's a big workshop every six weeks and or whatever it is, it should be like constant, , one other point that you made you mentioned things like away days, and I was wondering whether a good piece of advice is or there is any advice around things. 
 17:50: You've mentioned it as well, like things get busy, you spend your day doing emails, you loads of meetings and suddenly it's six months down the line, and actually nothing's really happened. 
 18:00: Is a massive risk, I think. 
 18:03: or things get fractured. 
 18:05: Do you think stepping away from the day to day changes seen different circumstances? 
 18:10: Just stepping back is a really good way of addressing certain things. 
 18:16: Yeah, I think we can get lost in the detail. 
 18:18: You're quite right that when you do step back, you see the bigger picture. 
 18:22: But it just gives you some downtime as well. 
 18:27: , you can have the conversations that you didn't have. 
 18:30: So when you get stuck in the detail, what you're not doing is transforming. 
 18:35: You're not making those big changes that are going to lead you to success. 
 18:38: You might be processing things. 
 18:40: So when you go on away days, you get to reconnect. 
 18:44: It's like it's almost like being on a holiday. 
 18:49: or a boot camp right where you're working towards your goal. 
 18:53: But you get to step away from all that detail. 
 18:57: What's have you had, , away days and experienced any of that yourself? 
 19:02: , I've been I've gone and worked in other places before. 
 19:07: Just change the scene. 
 19:08: Go and work in a different building to get some planning done. 
 19:12: , I mean, a friend used to do it. 
 19:15: , we should do it again, and we kind of just go somewhere, and we we show each other our plans and share ideas, and it was massively, massively productive, because I think,  when you're in the day to day now and particularly working remote, you've got email slack. 
 19:34: , your phone's buzzing with WhatsApp. 
 19:36: You've got probably got a smartphone that's going I haven't got one because I refuse. 
 19:40: I don't want any more notifications in my life, but this everything's at you at once, right? 
 19:45: And actually closing all that down and going somewhere else is really key. 
 19:49: We've done it with a few people here on the team where I don't know. 
 19:52: You gotta write a big presentation or you gotta There's a There's a thing that you actually need some headspace for. 
 19:58: So go somewhere else and do it. 
 20:00: And actually that can be really, really effective. 
 20:02: Yeah, yeah, I I I like those examples, and I'm glad you benefited it. 
 20:06: But it's such a simple, simple change that can break bring great productivity. 
 20:13: Different, different four walls different. 
 20:15: It's just a change of environment. 
 20:17: You feel differently. 
 20:19: You know, a lot of the,  creatives that I work with. 
 20:22: They find that when they have their away days, they're able to focus on OK, well, what are the goals that we're aiming for? 
 20:28: Where are we at who's been working on the transformative goals and who's been working on the process goal, and I think it's a great initiative and , more of it, the better. 
 20:41: So what holds people back so You know, we talked a lot about the mindset needed for growth and what a good team looks like and what people should be focusing on. 
 20:52: But what in your experience is the big thing that holds people back from growing their business or growing their own careers or growing in whatever way they need to grow? 
 21:04: Yeah. 
 21:06: people can label it in different ways. 
 21:08: But I think in one word it's fear. 
 21:10: People are scared, and that could be They are scared of failure. 
 21:17: They have imposter syndrome. 
 21:19: They might not have the finances. 
 21:21: They're worried about rejection. 
 21:23: It basically boils down to that one word. 
 21:27: And in my experience and my research, that pretty much stems from their childhood where they've experienced something and then they've buried it deep within themselves. 
 21:39: And it becomes a self limiting belief, whether it's conscious, they are aware of it, subconscious or unconscious, , and it's getting in touch with that, knowing why it's there and working on removing it. 
 21:55: The easiest way to do it is to know what it is. 
 21:58: And then you can work on ways to remove it. 
 22:00: But it is in one word. 
 22:02: I mean, do you have one? 
 22:05: a fair, a fair. 
 22:08: now. 
 22:09: Am I being analysed? 
 22:10: You're not being analysed. 
 22:11: Just being asked a question. 
 22:14: , yeah. 
 22:15: Like there's if if you're running a business, there's loads of scary stuff. 
 22:19: Do you invest money in this, or do you don't Or do you do you put it away and save it? 
 22:23: I think I'm probably more cautious than what would you call it? 
 22:28: Risk averse, maybe. 
 22:30: , you know, you you put money away for a rainy day, save you save up that money is just sitting there not doing anything, actually. 
 22:38: And like, is that holding you back? 
 22:39: The fear of investing? 
 22:41: , I don't know everyone. 
 22:44: I think most people are scared of perception what people think of them and you see all the time with them. 
 22:53: , there's loads of stuff out there about building a personal brand. 
 22:57: And, you know, that's one small, I think, practical example of where fear holds people back. 
 23:03: I don't want to post anything on LinkedIn because what? 
 23:05: What people can think of me? 
 23:07: Yeah. 
 23:07: Fear of being cancelled. 
 23:09: Yeah, Yeah. 
 23:10: Not getting enough likes. 
 23:12: Yeah, exactly. 
 23:13: Like what if I put it out and no one likes it? 
 23:15: Yeah. 
 23:16: No one's going to see it. 
 23:17: Yeah, and there are those who would pick it put it out there and not care for that, not care for whether they get likes or not. 
 23:25: , and I think that's an interesting mindset as well. 
 23:31: , the difference between what people will and will not do. 
 23:35: , definitely. 
 23:36: Are there any other practical examples? 
 23:38: Because I can. 
 23:39: I can think of loads, really, or loads of examples where fear or fear of perception or fear of something might hold you back from doing an activity that's gonna help you grow your business. 
 23:51: So, , getting on the phone So many people are scared of getting on the phone. 
 23:56: It's like, Well, if you don't phone up that person and ask them if they'd be interested in doing this thing, then it's never gonna happen. 
 24:07: You're quite right. 
 24:08: The worst that say no. 
 24:10: Exactly. 
 24:10: So what is the worst and that might that worst to you and I just to know. 
 24:17: But that to them, is an abject rejection, and that would go to the core of their psyche. 
 24:27: , and it's very disturbing. 
 24:28: So you know, you can work on that and a public performance. 
 24:32: Public speaking, , these are quite simple changes, but they terrify some people to stand up, or even what we're doing right now to speak into a microphone, which is very alien thing to do but to be comfortable to do it. 
 24:47: , is impossible for for some people. 
 24:52: Yeah, and these are very common fears. 
 24:53: Right? 
 24:54: Getting on the phone. 
 24:57: posting something on social. 
 24:59: , presenting in a room with your peers like these are all real, really, really common things that people get scared of quite understandably, but actually can really hold your development back because you can't stand up in a room and present. 
 25:18: Yeah, you're only well in certain paths is going to limit you, right? 
 25:23: Yeah, absolutely. 
 25:25: If you Because at the at the end of the day, it's about getting your point across. 
 25:30: So it's yes, one is public speaking or asking for something. 
 25:37: I think some people have difficulty, especially people who suffer from anxiety or social anxiety. 
 25:44: They suffer quite a bit from making requests or even being assertive and saying no, they struggle with. 
 25:53: loads of people are scared of saying no. 
 25:55: And then they suffer with increased workload. 
 25:57: Big time. 
 25:58: Yeah, that's a big one. 
 25:59: That's a big one. 
 26:00: It was funny, though. 
 26:01: When, , I talk to people about this podcast and we got some. 
 26:06: We got some great guests on, right and yourself included. 
 26:10: And people, How do you get all these people? 
 26:13: Just ask them. 
 26:15: Brilliant. 
 26:17: Yeah, just like, you know. 
 26:22: what's the worst they can say? 
 26:24: Yes. 
 26:25: Seven out of 10 people won't get back to you. 
 26:26: 11 person will say that sounds great. 
 26:29: But I'm busy. 
 26:29: And two people say yes, right? 
 26:31: Happy days. 
 26:32: Happy days. 
 26:33: But you've got to ask 10. 
 26:34: Don't get what you don't ask. 
 26:36: You don't get You're quite right and you've got to ask not the two that are going to agree but the 10. 
 26:42: So you get used to it. 
 26:44: You get used to it. 
 26:46: Do you think there's a I mean, there's so many things within that, but,  like, I mean, overcoming fear, but like just trying things. 
 26:56: And again it's like the reality is that the worst that's going to happen in many, many situations is people are going to say no. 
 27:05: , a presentation might go a bit badly. 
 27:09: you know, you're quite right. 
 27:11: I think I'm reminded of a study they did in America with some school Children. 
 27:15: And some of the kids didn't quite make the grade. 
 27:18: So rather than writing a fail or a poor grade, they wrote, Not yet. 
 27:24: Ah, very cool. 
 27:26: I thought Brilliant. 
 27:27: Not yet. 
 27:28: As in they're not quite ripe. 
 27:30: They're working their way towards being ready, So no means not yet. 
 27:37: Maybe I'll come on the podcast when I'm ready. 
 27:40: And that might be six months or a year's time. 
 27:42: Yeah. 
 27:42: So Yeah, I quite I quite like Not yet. 
 27:46: Yeah, that's I like that a lot. 
 27:48: , to wrap up, what would your I don't know. 
 27:52: One big, biggest piece of advice be for a founder, someone on a CD and leadership team, someone wanting to be on a senior team or progress in their career. 
 28:02: And they're just not quite getting there. 
 28:04: And they think they might need to just work on themselves a little bit within that. 
 28:08: What's your biggest key piece of advice to get to plug myself obviously no. 
 28:19: Get Get yourself a mentor. 
 28:21: Speak to pair. 
 28:23: There are You'd be surprised. 
 28:25: Just like, , John, you've said just ask. 
 28:29: Ask for help. 
 28:30: The people who ask Go the furthest. 
 28:32: You know, there is a wealth of resource available to you whether you google something, whether you phone up and speak to someone, whether it's an old lecturer, whether it's the CEO, you will be surprised how many people are willing to support you and guide you. 
 28:51: So, , do that. 
 28:53: That would be your key. 
 28:54: , that those sort of resources are available. 
 28:58: But also, if you find that you have a need beyond that that you would want a coach to help you and again speak to your CEO s salty, salty, they will provide that. 
 29:12: Because at the end of the day, that means if you succeed, they succeed. 
 29:17: The firm succeeds everybody. 
 29:20: Everybody wins. 
 29:21: Yes. 
 29:22: Excellent. 
 29:23: , and give yourself a plug. 
 29:25: Where can people find you? 
 29:27: I want to reach out. 
 29:27: I'm at w y k dot com. 
 29:31: That's Yasmin Khan. 
 29:33: Thank you. 
 29:34: Thank you so much for joining. 
 29:35: That was a really insightful episode. 
 29:38: Thank you. 
 29:38: And thank you for inviting me. 
 29:40: Maybe we'll meet again. 
 29:41: Very welcome. 
 29:42: And yes. 
 29:42: And if anyone has questions And if you want us to do another one of these and you have interesting questions that we can answer happy to return and answer them for you. 
 29:50: Absolutely. 
 29:51: All right. 
 29:51: Thanks, Yasmine. 
 29:52: Thank you. 
 29:53: Cheers. 
 29:53: Thank you, John. 
 29:55: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. 
 29:57: I very much hope you found this useful. 
 30:00: , please do come and subscribe in all the usual podcast places. 
 30:03: Come and check us out on YouTube for more video content. 
 30:06: I very much hope to see you on the next episode.