#EP167 - Turning Nova Twins into a Brit Award Nominated Artist, with Marshall Records

Welcome to the final episode of The Scale Up Season! 

In episode 167, Jon is joined by Steve Tannett, Director of Music Platforms at Marshall to discuss what it takes to turn an artist like Nova Twins into a Brit Award Nominee. 

Tune as Steve shares his experience and the transition from being the artist to being behind the record label, discovering artists and discover how the Marshall brand evolved from Amps to Albums.

Marketers and music enthusiasts alike will gain valuable takeaways from this conversation on building brands and nurturing talent.

Key Takeaways:

• Learn how Marshall has expanded beyond its iconic amplifiers to launch a record label.
• Gain insight into the financial realities of supporting emerging artists, particularly the long-term investment required for successful touring and fan base growth.
• Understand how digital platforms have democratised the music industry, allowing artists to distribute music independently, bypassing traditional gatekeepers.
• Explore the success story of Nova Twins, a band that signed with Marshall Records, leading to critically acclaimed success and major award nominations.
• Discover the value of staying true to your creative vision and product, with advice on marketing both music and other creative ventures.

Transcript

0:00: All right, Steve. 
 0:00: So, look, welcome to the podcast. 
 0:03: Thank you. 
 0:04: And thank you so much for hosting. 
 0:05: This is, like, properly amazing. 
 0:08: I'm glad you like our little home here in Bletchley. 
 0:11: We're proud of it. 
 0:12: We think, , something unique about Marshall. 
 0:15: And, , you're in a room that's got one of the most beautiful recording consoles that you can have, I suppose, you know, and, , a wonderful room to record. 
 0:25: So we do all kinds of great things here. 
 0:27: There's so much history. 
 0:29: That's certainly true. 
 0:30: Yes. 
 0:30: Yeah. 
 0:31: There. 
 0:31: There's,  there's over 60 years of history, as you know, 62 plus now, and, , , we are very proud of the heritage, but we're also proud of where the brand is right now, where the company is going in the future. 
 0:44: It's,  it's a very exciting time. 
 0:46: It's absolutely fantastic to be here. 
 0:48: And this is gonna be a really interesting one for the podcast, because we talk to so many different brands doing lots of different things in different sectors. 
 0:57: So, like last week, I was talking to the London Stock Exchange Group this week at Marshall. 
 1:03: Slight difference. 
 1:04: So it's quite different. 
 1:06: We're going to be talking about how you take an artist from a to B. 
 1:09: We'll talk a bit about your career. 
 1:11: We'll talk about Marshall and we'll talk about Marshall's record label. 
 1:15: Yeah, for sure. 
 1:16: , before we go into that, do you want to give us an overview of who you are? 
 1:19: What you've done, , because you've worked with some phenomenal around for some 45 years now in the industry. 
 1:28: , I was,   I left school at 15 to pursue my dream as a as a guitar player, which meant that I had to work to get money to buy guitar and which I did. 
 1:41: And, of course, the first professional lamp I ever bought was a marshal of 50 Watt, actually. 
 1:46: And, , there's a book recently that was written about my band Menace. 
 1:51: I was in a band called Menace in 1977 but prior to that, we were, you know, schoolboy band and playing covers and travelling around Europe and so on. 
 2:00: And the Marshall amp. 
 2:02: Is in one of my early biographies, and, , I was very happy to see that, because it,  I think it was written in 76 or something. 
 2:09: So, , Marshall has always been a part of my life as a guitar player. 
 2:13: And,  So in a in brief, , in 1977 I was signed, , in the punk boom, , I had a band called Menace. 
 2:24: , and Menace was signed to a label called Illegal Records, which was started by Miles Copeland. 
 2:32: So I was privileged enough to be on a record label alongside the police, which included, of course, Sting and Stewart and,  from that relationship, which no hits, I'm afraid, but, , couple of reasonable punk tunes. 
 2:47: , I formed a relationship with Miles Copeland and he asked me to come and work with him in 1979. 
 2:54: Just you know, really, I think he felt sorry for me because I was driving a forklift truck but still played in a band. 
 3:00: And he came and saw us at the Railway hotel up in West Hampstead, the Moonlight Club. 
 3:06: I think it was the week before you two made their debut there, and, , he said, it's not going that great, is it? 
 3:12: Steve And I said, Well, you know, we're still trying and he said, Well, you come and work for me and, you know, And I said, Well, doing what he said, Well, you know, packing records, taking them around, selling them to rough trade, you know, doing yeah, just stuff. 
 3:25: And I said, All right, I'll give it a go. 
 3:27: So I turned up there, and I stayed with him for 26 years, and we had some notable successes along the way. 
 3:36: An incredible journey and, , a lot of fun. 
 3:39: What? 
 3:39: What was it that made you fall in love with, , like, the business side of it? 
 3:44: So going from a player into the business aspect, So what What appealed to you about that? 
 3:50: I think what really appealed to me, , aside from the fact that I was driving a forklift truck and Miles Copeland said, You want a job? 
 3:58: , which anything at that point sounded more glamorous than, , driving a forklift. 
 4:03: It was the opportunity, actually, to work with bands because, you know, once once you're bitten by the bug, there's only one way to that's it. 
 4:14: I couldn't really envisage doing anything else, So,  miles' attitude to the music business was very disruptive. 
 4:25: You know, he believed that, , it didn't all have to be about money. 
 4:30: It could be just a spark of an idea, which is how the police really happened in the first place and when he allowed me after about two or three years of working, selling records and understanding how that worked, he allowed me to make a signing. 
 4:52: I, of course, was really eager to sign a band. 
 4:55: And he says his words to me were, Well, if it's cheap, you can do it. 
 4:59: And I was off to see a band, , supporting the Boomtown Rats actually called the alarm, and I sort of was quite taken with them. 
 5:09: They weren't Obviously this is post punk, So But they had, you know, spiky hair. 
 5:14: And they held up their acoustic guitars and and they were really, really, really good. 
 5:19: And I thought, My God, I I you know, I want to sign that band So he said, All right, go ahead, keep it cheap. 
 5:24: And I actually went in the studio with them actually in,  , in London. 
 5:30: They were from Wales and they'd sort of moved down into a squat in bay. 
 5:34: And we made their first single, and we, you know, that went quite well and Miles was happy. 
 5:41: And so I said, Well, look, can we do an album? 
 5:43: And he said Yes. 
 5:44: And then 69 months later, we were on top of the pops. 
 5:48: So all of a sudden, not only had I signed my first band, I actually had a hit record. 
 5:53: So So which was quite unusual, really? 
 5:56: So that that kind of really kind of lit the fire in me that, you know, OK, maybe I can do this. 
 6:04: So with Marshall. 
 6:06: I know Marshall from the perspective and very fondly. 
 6:11: , many people now know Marshall as a brand with headphones. 
 6:16: You can see those speakers. 
 6:17: Yeah, by the way. 
 6:19: , but also, there's the record label. 
 6:23: So why the record label? 
 6:25: And what is all of that about? 
 6:28: Well, it's actually a good question, because when I decided to start working with Marshall, the idea was that,  they wanted to help support young musicians. 
 6:42: And this is before this place that you're sitting here was built, actually, And, , I was eager to I'd been sort of for a couple of years just managing people and doing some projects and so on. 
 6:57: And,  when when they said, Oh, we really want to help young artists that excited me because it was like, Oh, OK, this is a brand that's clearly, you know, substantial with, you know, a good history. 
 7:11: And if they really do want to help artists, that's actually the embodiment of what I believe in. 
 7:16: So the idea was always to be about grassroots and nurturing talent rather than just trying to go for market share or any of those things. 
 7:25: And so they were very, , happy to let me kind of set it up, set up the distribution and and because they didn't really understand any of it so but they had a nice chequebook. 
 7:37: And,  so we sort of got cracking on that, , so that was really it. 
 7:42: Really. 
 7:42: It was. 
 7:42: It was Marshall's commitment to the future of music in terms of, you know, no guitar players. 
 7:50: Then how does anyone buy amps? 
 7:52: So this is, , really what was at the heart of it, you know, trying to encourage young players. 
 7:57: Really? 
 7:58: And how was that? 
 7:59: I guess translated into a a commercial business with the label. 
 8:05: Because you look at the set up here. 
 8:07: And you You gave me kind enough to give me a really good tour before this. 
 8:12: And you've fair to say, gone for it, right? 
 8:16: Is this There's no half measures here. 
 8:19: So how has that? 
 8:20: I guess that ambition to help new artists, you know, really properly doing this translated into a commercial venture. 
 8:29: Yeah, well, I mean, firstly, you'd have to look overall at the brand of Marshall. 
 8:35: You know, it's a global brand, you know, it is, , very successful in consumer electronics. 
 8:41: These headphones you're wearing, for instance, Bluetooth speakers. 
 8:45: , obviously the iconic amplifiers that we see as the heart of our business, you know? 
 8:52: No amps. 
 8:53: Our chairman is very very, , you know, he's absolutely married to the concept of keeping this Marshall factory alive here, making these amps with people who've been on those benches, some of them for 30 years, making you know these are hand wired, high quality products. 
 9:12: So that part of it is, , really what allows us to do these things? 
 9:19: Because, you know, it all ties into one overall global concept, which is, , you know, Marshall as a music brand. 
 9:28: So that's why we're allowed to do this. 
 9:31: Like I I love that. 
 9:32: I love how this but really really backs up the fund like the foundations of the brand and and who you are as a brand, I think it's it's brilliant. 
 9:44: So if we go to an artist level, I mean, first off, I think more than many industries music, music, industry seen so much commercial change over the last Well, let's say 2030 years, right? 
 9:59: The the business model just completely turned upside down. 
 10:04: So first off, like how? 
 10:06: How? 
 10:06: How has that had an influence on new artists coming into the market? 
 10:11: And how has that changed the process for the better or for the worse? 
 10:15: Well, I think it's changed it for the better. 
 10:18: I think that, , you know, when if you look back to sixties, the seventies, even the eighties. 
 10:27: You know, there were the disruptors, the Miles Copelands, the Jeff Traviss, the Martin Mills of the world. 
 10:34: You know who, you know, wanted to really just do music that they wanted to do without any, You know, commercial gatekeepers, you know, so and there's always been that sort of maverick spirit in British music. 
 10:47: But the, , there was always a a barrier to entry. 
 10:51: Recording is very expensive. 
 10:53: You know, Recording studios are by nature. 
 10:56: You can look at this place. 
 10:58: You know, you would imagine it's not cheap to put something like this together, but the releasing of music became sort of much more democratised with,  digital. 
 11:11: So, you know, you could, for instance, make your own record and, you know, go to one of the distribution services, you know, , AWOL or DISTRO kid Or, you know, one of those those sorts of, you know, solutions for releasing music to the streaming platforms. 
 11:30: And all of a sudden it's like, Well, actually, I can get my music to the same place as Warner's or Sony or E M I or whatever. 
 11:38: So that was exciting. 
 11:40: And that really was an important part of how and why people like us exist is that we didn't have to wait for somebody to say, Yeah, we'll distribute your music. 
 11:53: We just decided we were gonna have a record label And we just, you know, went to someone and said, Well, you do you want to distribute it? 
 12:00: And they said, Yes, because what's the downside for them? 
 12:04: And so that's an exciting part of, you know. 
 12:07: What is going on right now and has been for years, is that you know the barrier to entry. 
 12:13: The gatekeepers have sort of been dismantled which for the artist is a very positive thing. 
 12:20: It really is because the other side of the coin is that when you look at the revenue splits, you know, when we created this record label, you know, we we did not need to live from the share of revenue from the artist. 
 12:35: We were selling our products. 
 12:37: So, you know, if you signed to Sony or Warner Brothers or or or a major, they want to live off their share of your revenue. 
 12:46: Whereas we're happy to give most of the revenue back to the artist because we're in a partnership, that is I. 
 12:52: If we can support the artists, they will support our brand and hopefully, along the way they can make a career for themselves. 
 13:02: Our our main objectives is for the artists that come through our label that at some point during the journey they become self sufficient so they can keep the money that they're making which is a really nice goal to have as a label right. 
 13:17: It really is quite unique, and, yeah, and it's, you know, it's not. 
 13:20: It's not the easiest journey in the world to be in a band and, you know, release music and try to have a career as a musician. 
 13:27: It's a really long, hard road. 
 13:30: And most of the people who work at Marshall, actually, and certainly on this side of it, that they've all been in bands. 
 13:37: Adam, our studio manager, is a live sound guy you know was in a band, you know, mix live sound for bands. 
 13:43: He's an amazing engineer. 
 13:45: Ollie, his assistant is a young musician. 
 13:47: You know who's actually playing in one of our bands. 
 13:50: Kid bookie right now has just been on tour with kid bookie. 
 13:53: , Steph Carter, our culture director, was a gallows. 
 13:57: You know, it goes on. 
 13:58: There's just so many musicians in our company, so we have a I think we have more of a feel for it than a lot of record labels. 
 14:06: Quote unquote. 
 14:07: I love that. 
 14:08: So when you sign a new artist like what? 
 14:12: What are the first steps in terms of getting the artist to a point where, in your words, they're self sufficient and they're bringing enough revenue to pay for what they're doing and that, you know, they they've got to a certain point. 
 14:25: I mean, it's probably a massive question, but really kind of at a high level. 
 14:30: What does that process look like? 
 14:32: Well, first and foremost, , an artist, Really? 
 14:38: In this day and age to come into our world, for instance, , they have to play live, you know, because without going out and playing live, it's always gonna be difficult to compete in that marketplace because those companies that can develop singer songwriters and, you know, dance artists and pop records they're they're they have a different business model. 
 15:03: Our first job is to help that band get on the road, so we will help them with back line. 
 15:09: You know, we will help connect them to the parts of the business that we have relationships already. 
 15:14: You know, whether it be management companies or booking agencies. 
 15:18: And that journey really to to get a band from scratch to a million streams on Spotify and some albums and some fans to sell vinyl and C DS to. 
 15:33: That is where we really are. 
 15:36: That's what we're here for, to help them on that journey. 
 15:39: So getting them out live is a really key thing. 
 15:42: What other? 
 15:43: I guess like marketing activities traditionally fall into the mix for you because you've got it's like PR. 
 15:48: You know what else? 
 15:50: What does that mix look like? 
 15:52: Yeah, for us. 
 15:53: It's,  if if we like to look at a band as a as a self starting business, as I said, So we've got an in house PR team. 
 16:04: We've got a European PR team. 
 16:06: We have, , in house label team That will help organise the marketing and advise the artists what kind of content and how frequent they need that content. 
 16:21: But most artists these days are producing so much content that the label really doesn't have to ask for it. 
 16:28: You know, they are. 
 16:29: They're all actually smart enough now to understand that you know, what the label will really do is help pull it all together. 
 16:38: PR is a cost. 
 16:39: We we tend to say to them, Look, you don't need to spend money on an independent PR we have in house PR team specialist people all experience and those people can really help, you know, build that relationship with the media. 
 16:55: , but essentially it's about shows. 
 16:57: It's about content, and it's about our ability to help them put it all together, Get the timing right and make sure music is where it needs to be when they need it. 
 17:08: Interesting. 
 17:09: Can we talk a bit about Nova twins? 
 17:12: Yes, of course. 
 17:13: Because that's a really successful example for you guys, right? 
 17:17: So how how was their journey from that kind of starting point to where they are now? 
 17:23: Well, that's interesting, because, , when Nova twins got onto my radar personally, , they had had already released something of their own. 
 17:35: It was a It was an album, their first album, but that had never really properly commercially been released. 
 17:41: And I don't think, for instance, I don't think they'd released it on vinyl or anything like that. 
 17:45: And then the pandemic happened. 
 17:47: The delightful pandemic, which made everybody rethink. 
 17:52: And I must say to Marshall's credit, even at that point, the label was in its early years, the,  I I thought this might be the end of it, right, you know, because no one knew, you know, with the business shutting down and what we were gonna do. 
 18:08: But, you know, fortunately, the build was ongoing with this place, and,  Nova twins, , started having conversations with us, and I was just super blown away by just what they were about. 
 18:25: Really? 
 18:26: You know, they they they really had something to say. 
 18:28: They really were powerful in how they wanted to do it. 
 18:32: You know, And the,  As soon as the doors opened here, we were able to get Nova twins into this studio. 
 18:42: They were the first recordings to be made here, and that formed then the basis of what we then, , which became supernova, which was the Mercury Prize nominated two Brit Award nominated endless front cover album cycle. 
 18:59: So, , so for us, Nova twins, I it was the right time, for sure. 
 19:04: And because of the press and the way that, you know, the buzz was going even though they couldn't work through the pandemic, the appetite was so there for them that as soon as the pandemic ended, they went on tour would bring me the horizon, and that just set everything off. 
 19:24: And that was the start of that whole incredible journey. 
 19:27: So the pandemic, you know, it was a terrible time, but it gave us the chance to form the relationship with the Nova twins, and, , here we are. 
 19:36: I think I saw them support skunk and yes, yes. 
 19:41: So, as I guess, from A from coming into the studio recording the album. 
 19:47: Obviously, getting them out on the road, as you've said, is a really big thing. 
 19:51: what, like was there a tipping point where things really started to pick up momentum? 
 19:57: Because you could get,  Well, from this is an assumption, right? 
 20:01: But you could get a good artist in the studio, a good artist out on the road. 
 20:06: But it it might never pick up pace enough to get it to the point that you've just described. 
 20:12: So was there a tipping point with them where you're like, OK, now this is starting to pick up momentum. 
 20:18: This is starting to pick up press and And what was that? 
 20:21: I You know, I I would love to sit here and tell you that it was something to do with us, but actually, it wasn't. 
 20:28: It was the group. 
 20:29: The group had an energy about them that you could just It was palpable, you know, every every time they played a show everywhere they went, you know, the excitement within our you know, we had a distribution deal that we just started with, , a company called Fuga and Fuga had a pretty much all female marketing team. 
 20:51: And just the excitement that people had for to work with Nova twins was incredible. 
 20:57: So It was almost like everything was in the right place at the right time. 
 21:02: They made a great record here with Jim Abbes. 
 21:04: Who's Jim Abbess is a, you know, a very established record producer, you know, Arctic monkeys. 
 21:09: And, you know, Adele, all kinds of people. 
 21:12: And he he he just the energy in the room here, the energy around them at media,  I can't say it was us. 
 21:22: But I think we added perhaps the special sauce. 
 21:26: Yeah, it's your job, then to I guess spot that because I'm I'm assuming you got a sense of that when you signed them, and that's the reason you signed them because you're like, right, there's something really, really cool here. 
 21:37: There's an energy about this, this artist, right? 
 21:42: your job is then to throw the the match on the fire, the fuel on the fire, Right, And put put what it needs behind it to make that happen. 
 21:51: Yeah, , I think that's absolutely right. 
 21:54: Actually, the You know, I guess you could talk to any A and R person or label person about, you know, Why did you sign that band or why did you sign that guy or whatever? 
 22:06: There's always something special about Yeah, You want every artist that you're involved in to succeed. 
 22:12: So, you know, we all enter the room, hopefully with the same objectives. 
 22:16: But sometimes you just meet a band, and you just think, Well, if it isn't us, it will be someone else. 
 22:23: I mean, they they they were always going to get off the starting grid. 
 22:28: Right. 
 22:28: , I think fueling the fire is is is a good, , analogy or whatever you call that because, , we were ready with money at the right time. 
 22:42: So when certain tour support opportunities came up, a band a band needs money. 
 22:50: I mean, there is no question, you know that this journey of,   for for any band when they, you know, enter a record label with whatever label it is, whether it's us or one or the other competing, you know, independents or or the majors. 
 23:05: You know, nine times out of 10, the opportunities are there. 
 23:08: But who's going to pay for it? 
 23:09: So, you know, we we did support the band, and we have continued to support the band economically in in mainly in touring, actually, because I mean, they, you know, their sales are, are, are are good and, you know, and the income that we receive is is flowing through nicely. 
 23:26: So, , it's worked. 
 23:29: But there, there, Yeah, there have been a couple of deep breath conversations about how much do we need to do that to, you know, But, , now, of course, it's turning around and and the curve, you know, works the right way. 
 23:42: So I don't know if you talk about numbers, but, like, let's say, , a tour support opportunity comes up. 
 23:51: What sort of numbers are you talking about? 
 23:53: To get a band on the road for support tour? 
 23:55: , you are talking. 
 24:02: if it's a if it's arenas, you know, because obviously there's tour sports and clubs. 
 24:08: You know, sometimes you have to support a band to go and open for somebody in the horn in, You know, Saint Albans, you know, which holds 100 and 40 people or something, right? 
 24:19: Still, that there's no fee for the support band, is there? 
 24:23: You know, the support band gets a fiver. 
 24:25: So how much does it cost to get in the band where you have a van? 
 24:27: You've got to get to the gig you've got. 
 24:29: You know, there's a there's a cost. 
 24:31: Someone has to underwrite that. 
 24:33: I think tour support is the biggest number on a page. 
 24:38: What used to be the really big number on a page was the marketing. 
 24:42: You know, videos used to be, you know, I remember, you know, back in the day, sort of call it the nineties. 
 24:48: You know, a video 50,000 pounds for a video is everyone, you know. 
 24:55: Oh, well, it's only 50. 
 24:56: 0, maybe we should spend more 6070. 
 24:58: And that's because the numbers were different, you know? 
 25:01: And if you did get the breakthrough, you know, the the the volume of physical goods that record companies were selling generate lots of dollars, right? 
 25:11: So But we're now in a slightly different world. 
 25:14: So, , the numbers if you if you're gonna ask me, say, what would a tour cost? 
 25:21: , you know, I think you're talking in the sort of 20,000. 
 25:29: , you know, tens to twenties are not uncommon, and they're big numbers, right? 
 25:37: And you you have to take a deep breath and go. 
 25:41: and you have to have a conversation because at that point I guess you gotta get a band, the crew, all the costs that go with that out on the road for a support tour in an in an arena environment, Let's say, but as you're then looking at that clearly as a let's say, it's 20 grand, you know? 
 26:00: How does that how How do you look at that coming back? 
 26:04: And you know, clearly you're getting lots of exposure. 
 26:07: There's lot, lots of new eyeballs building a fan base. 
 26:10: It's all really good, but you have to commercially trust that that comes back at some point you do, and we would see that. 
 26:20: When you When? 
 26:21: When you're budgeting a tour like that, you're looking at it. 
 26:26: in the short and long term. 
 26:29: So if in the short term you were getting somewhere close through vinyl sales, for instance, right, you know, OK, so, you know, are the band able to sell vinyl copies or C DS? 
 26:43: Right? 
 26:44: Because, you know, that's a you know, in venue sales can be very lucrative and bring pennies back in. 
 26:51: , you're not gonna look at trying to get that money back fast, because it it just doesn't come like that. 
 26:59: But you are looking at it as a building block to I mean every a band without any form of tour support. 
 27:08: they do exist, but it is really, really hard when you're trying to fund everything else, so the numbers that you're looking at, you know, 20 grand, 30 grand or whatever it might be. 
 27:25: You are not looking at getting those those costs back in any short order. 
 27:30: You are looking at it over a period of, say, 18 months. 
 27:33: Two years? 
 27:34: Definitely. 
 27:35: And that I guess that's that's any marketing investment, though. 
 27:40: Yeah, you know, the And this is all coming from a place Marshall of genuinely wanting to support new artists, right? 
 27:49: And there's definitely a vibe of genuinely wanting to do that. 
 27:55: What's the difference between a label like yours and a major? 
 27:59: Because I imagine the commercial pressure being a major say, Sony, you know, would be far, far greater right for sure. 
 28:12: And I mean, there are some incredibly visionary A and R people at the respective major labels around the world. 
 28:21: And clearly, you know, an artist say, like Ed Sheeran, you know, he he didn't He didn't arrive at a stadium level, you know, he was walking around with his acoustic guitar sleeping on people's floors. 
 28:34: You know, someone had the vision to, you know, believe that. 
 28:38: Actually, I think it was Elton actually and and the rocket team who spotted him first. 
 28:42: But that is a kind of artist that was determined to get there. 
 28:46: And and people are dragged along by the energy, you know, and I think Yeah, I I I just think you You you have to go on a on A on A on a journey of belief. 
 28:59: Sorry. 
 28:59: The question I missed, I think I might have slightly gone off topic there. 
 29:05: It was really interesting. 
 29:06: We were talking about how you know, when you're putting tour support and big, big numbers behind an artist, you're doing it from a position of your Marshall and you genuinely sorry. 
 29:21: I'll go back on track. 
 29:23: The difference is, I think, with the majors. 
 29:26: Like I said, there's a lot of visionary people there, but they have a a different view of the value of those recordings to their brand. 
 29:36: Say right. 
 29:37: So each release that Sony or Warner's or any label you know that's living on their share of the revenue, they have to look at it on a a mathematical basis, right? 
 29:52: They have to go right, OK, well, we're gonna spend, you know, Big R and D. 
 29:56: Right? 
 29:56: Let's say they're gonna spend 200 grand, right? 
 29:58: So what do we need to do that, , how how long is it gonna take to get that back? 
 30:02: They are not really thinking about the long term of getting that money back. 
 30:09: They want a big return on that investment in a period of time or it's not really been worth their investment. 
 30:18: They so So their curve is so different to ours, right? 
 30:22: Because we are because we're not essentially doing it for a profit on that music. 
 30:30: We want the profit because we want the band to have the profit. 
 30:33: We want the band to have an ongoing business. 
 30:35: But as long as they're part of what we're doing and what we are trying to do and helping supporting artists and having that feeling of, , community and family, that's when for us it makes sense. 
 30:53: Whereas for the majors it it's all numbers. 
 30:56: It has to be because they have to keep filling up that, you know, column with superstars. 
 31:02: So development for them is much. 
 31:05: They have a much shorter view. 
 31:08: If it doesn't happen in a period of time, probably not gonna go on right. 
 31:12: There's a kind of a tipping point, whereas our tipping point comes much later. 
 31:17: So arguably you get a much more natural organic development of an artist with A with a label like yours. 
 31:28: That's the theory behind it, because I think, , you know, we've got some pretty out there artists on this label, and, you know, one of the things we want to do is, you know, the things that we want to do. 
 31:42: So you know, it's like, Yeah, I'm signing a young band at the moment called the Molotovs. 
 31:47: You know they're a London band. 
 31:49: They've done 100 and 20 gigs. 
 31:50: The The lead singer is 16 years old. 
 31:53: His sister is 18. 
 31:55: They just supported the Sex Pistols over the weekend, And I was just so taken by the fact that they're already out there generating all of this energy for themselves. 
 32:06: All of this content for themselves. 
 32:09: It just felt like that's an artist that we can bring into our world. 
 32:14: You know, they are on their mission. 
 32:17: We can We can actually really help that journey. 
 32:22: You know, they don't exist because of us. 
 32:24: They exist because they're a band. 
 32:27: And most of the bands are like that on this label and and looking for short gains on artists is just not really our our reason to be here. 
 32:38: I love it. 
 32:38: I absolutely love it. 
 32:40: So to wrap up Steve, like, what would your advice be for anyone, I guess looking to push or, , market music or market anything creative? 
 32:52: What would your like one piece of advice be? 
 32:56: Yeah, I guess the advice would be,  stick to your guns, you know, I mean, if you believe that your product is worthy of its position, then believe in it and go for it. 
 33:12: You know, no one's you know, it's it's it's no point someone saying, Well, I I really like what you're doing, But can you please change it? 
 33:21: That's not going to be the way forward, is it? 
 33:23: You know? 
 33:24: So when I see a band or we see a band here and we get excited about a band, we've got a nice internal, you know, kind of panel of people with great taste and so on. 
 33:33: If we you know, the last thing we're gonna do is go right. 
 33:36: Well, let's get that band in. 
 33:38: and let's change everything about the band. 
 33:41: That's not gonna go, is it? 
 33:43: So it's the same with guitarists. 
 33:45: You know, if if if a guitarist comes in and and and has always had the ambition to play Marshall, but they're playing some strange, weird music. 
 33:56: We're happy that they're playing Marshall. 
 33:58: We're not going to say, Hey, you know, you really shouldn't play like that. 
 34:00: You should play like that. 
 34:01: So if you if you stick to your guns, that's that's the thing, you know? 
 34:05: Yes, of course, you know, you may be wrong, and that's the life risk of all of us. 
 34:11: It happens. 
 34:12: It does. 
 34:13: But look, Steve, thank you so much. 
 34:15: That was absolutely fascinating. 
 34:16: And thank you to everyone for listening in. 
 34:18: Cheers. 
 34:19: Thank you.