Helping Healthcare Scale
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Helping Healthcare Scale
Will MacInnis: Mastering DSO Development and Doctor Empowerment through Innovative Technology and Strategic Partnerships in Dental Specialties
Unlock the secrets of building a successful Dental Support Organization (DSO) with insights from our esteemed guest, Will MacInnis, founder and CEO of Cliffridge Specialty Partners. Will's fascinating journey from healthcare investment banking to the niche field of orthodontics and pediatric dentistry offers a rich tapestry of knowledge. This episode explores the divergent healthcare investment landscapes across the US and Europe, and how Will's experiences at TPG helped shape his innovative approach to physician practice management in dental specialties.
Discover how Will transitioned from private equity to an executive role, leveraging technology to enhance operational efficiency in clinical trials and founding a doctor-centric DSO. We unravel the strategic decisions that empower doctors by aligning clinical autonomy with economic interests. Through engaging discussions, we explore how marketing technology and automated HR solutions can combat challenges such as rising costs and capped reimbursement rates, all while maintaining the vital human touch in patient care.
As we navigate the complexities of building a sustainable DSO business, we emphasize the importance of mission alignment and cultivating a strong team culture. Will shares unexpected experiences and industry perceptions, providing valuable lessons on sustainable growth over rapid expansion. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for healthcare entrepreneurs and investors, highlighting the significance of focusing on fundamentals and establishing robust partnerships with specialists like orthodontists in a constantly evolving economic landscape.
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some people get lucky and it's like the I'll be gone, you'll be gone mentality. A lot of people get stuck holding the bag and I think the takeaway is there is no easy answer. There is no easy button. There's usually no shortcuts. It just takes hard work and focusing on good fundamentals.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and it takes us a couple extra years to get there. That's totally fine.
Speaker 3:The goal of this show is to help healthcare organizations scale by leveraging real estate strategies and interviewing high-level healthcare executives in order to pull out lessons learned along the way. If you'd like a free site selection analysis from our team, visit us at wwwreuniversityorg and drop us a line.
Speaker 1:Hello everybody, welcome back to Helping Healthcare Scale. I'm your host, austin Hare, and I'd like to welcome our guest today, will McInnis. He is the founder and CEO of Cliffridge Specialty Partners. It's a specialty DSO that's focused on orthodontics and pediatric industry. They started last year and they have four locations two in Washington, two in New York. Will, thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me on the show. I'm very glad to be here.
Speaker 1:I want to get right into your story. I know that you bounced around a lot, but in a relatively short time period, to arrive at where you are now, from banking to private equity to startup. So yeah, just lay it on me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'd say, out of college had a pretty standard kind of finance career, started in healthcare investment banking, moved into healthcare private equity after a few years and spent a good chunk of time at a fund called TPG which is super active in healthcare private equity. I started out in San Francisco doing US-based healthcare investing and then moved to London for a couple of years to do European healthcare investing as well.
Speaker 1:How is that different? How would you compare US healthcare investing to European? Because when I think European, I just think so much regulation. Is that accurate?
Speaker 2:I would say it depends on the industry. I would say yes and no. What's really interesting about European investing is just the difference in healthcare models that you get to see across countries. So in the US we obviously have federally, we have our national healthcare system, we have Medicare and Medicaid, and then at a state level you have different regulatory systems when it comes to Medicaid, and then you have commercial insurance that kind of spans across the country as well, Whereas in Europe you have Germany, which has a public option and a private option, or you have the UK, which has its own system. So it was really interesting to spend some time looking at different healthcare models in different countries and seeing what works and what doesn't on a very local level. So I would say broadly, what was really interesting about working over there was just the difference in models across countries.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because it's not really privatized at all. Right, it's all backed by the government and I'm sure there is private healthcare. So were you working in the private healthcare sector over there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's. In a lot of countries you have a private option and a public option, with Germany being a good example. So there and then I would say even within that, in a country like the UK, which is primarily public, there are still private companies operating in specific industries. So there's still opportunity for private equity to come in and make investments. It just depends on the subcategory. So when I was there, I spent a good amount of time in pharma, specifically generic pharma, and then also looked at a few services businesses. We looked at a couple lab companies which was particularly relevant, given I was there during COVID, and some other businesses. We looked at a couple lab companies, which was particularly relevant, given I was there during COVID and some other businesses. But yeah, there's definitely both public and private healthcare over there.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'd imagine that private healthcare is just a lot smaller, since the public healthcare is probably what most people opt for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and depending on the country and the sector, but I'd say broadly that's true. So you were over there?
Speaker 1:how many years did you say?
Speaker 2:I was over there for a couple of years and then, so what I was going to say, just in terms of how my background led me to where we are today, is, through my time working at TPG, I was exposed to many different business models across healthcare, spent a lot of time in an industry that I would broadly call physician practice management, which in the US has a very specific meaning, and it is essentially setting up companies that are built to help doctors with back office functions.
Speaker 2:So this is everything from HR to revenue cycle management to marketing, basically all those kind of business functions that doctors have to manage when they own their own business, in addition to doing the kind of day-to-day clinical care, and so these businesses have proliferated over the past 30 to 40 years in basically every major specialty in healthcare, and so during my time in private equity, I spent time working with a behavioral practice management company doing autism services. On the primary care side, we set up a business in that industry as well, and also on the behavioral side, tpg owned, or still owns, the largest outpatient behavioral health business in the US called LifeStance. So there is a lot of different exposure to different models, and I think that helped push me in the direction which we ended up going, which is setting up our own practice management business in dental specifically, especially dental orthodontics and pediatric dentistry. But yeah, it was spending time in that industry and getting to know it and figuring out what works and what doesn't is really what drove us to launch Clifford Specialty Partners. Specialty partners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, while you're over there, what was like the most unexpected thing that you learned? Or maybe said a different way, what do you think was like your biggest failure that led to your biggest learning experience?
Speaker 2:uh sorry, you're saying in when you're in europe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh.
Speaker 2:Oh, when I was in Europe. You're saying what was the most challenging thing over there, what was?
Speaker 1:it yeah, the biggest challenging thing that caused you to learn the most.
Speaker 2:I would say, basically just being dropped into a whole new region starting from scratch.
Speaker 2:One of the things that's really nuanced about Europe is maybe this isn't that nuanced, but everyone over there is bi or trilingual, and I think that what was really interesting is seeing that a lot of success in investing came from building local relationships and actually having people locally. So it'd be like if you really wanted to invest heavily in Italy, it helped to have an Italian partner and an Italian office and someone who spoke Italian and just learning all the local market dynamics, because culturally each country was different as well. So the biggest learning for me, I think, was in the U S, a lot of private equity firms and investing companies operate as a one size fits all hey, we're this big fund and this is how we invest and we have partners and we're going out and meeting people and making investments Whereas the way that you interact with management teams, the way that management teams have and manage their businesses and the power dynamics between management teams and boards is very different between countries in Europe. So I think that was probably the biggest, the biggest learning for me.
Speaker 1:You think that translates over? I know a lot of private equity groups are nationwide and we do. We are real estate developers nationwide. But it does seem like the more hyperlocal you get, the more of a relationship you can form and, specifically when it comes to investors, people would are much more comfortable investing in their own backyard. Have you noticed that similarity? A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I think I would say that is definitely true. When you move down the if we're looking at size based on equity check, like as you move down that scale to smaller deals and more, I'd say, mid to lower market, private equity definitely I think is more regionally driven. So you'll have a fund in Minneapolis that primarily does Minneapolis investments and my exposure is more in healthcare. But I would say that's definitely true in some small or kind of regionally focused healthcare companies. As you move up the ladder to larger equity checks, larger funds, I would say that's less the case because you have a limited pool of large companies and where the funds are set up is more a function of taking advantage of tax or maybe this is where the partners are all living. It's just less a function of where the assets might be and more a function of some other drivers. But I would say definitely on the mid to lower market, that regional investing is definitely, I would say, a thing.
Speaker 1:You were doing these clinical trials for DERM and then that's what spurred you to start your own DSO. Can you bridge that gap?
Speaker 2:For sure. So when I left investing, I was thinking about doing a few different things. I ended up having a great opportunity to work at a company called Bile, which is a software and services business, building clinical trial infrastructure and technology for dermatology and ophthalmology clinical trials, and I think they've probably expanded out since then. I think having looked at the company website recently and chatting with some folks that are still there, I think they're now even getting into end-to-end biotech development. It was a great opportunity to step up from a hierarchic mid-level role at a large private equity company and step into an executive level role, which I found to be incredibly good for my own personal and professional development. So I was basically the CFO of that company and I worked very closely with the CEO and the founder and then also formed a very strong relationship with the COO, who is now my co-founder of Cliff Ridge.
Speaker 2:We spent about a year and a half two years at that company, ultimately decided that we wanted to go out and start our own thing, so left beginning of last year. But yeah, that was the. I think that was. It's somewhat the business model over there is somewhat similar to what we're doing now, but I think we spent a lot of time, myself and my co-founder, doing ideation for our thesis and focused on, maybe dug into maybe 15 or 20 different things. So it was a great experience, but ultimately decided to leave and do our own thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what is the thesis? And let's talk about that. What do you think is it that is like your, I don't know, special sauce or the most compelling factor of why you switched over?
Speaker 2:A hundred percent, I'd say look, there's a lot of DSOs out there. It's nothing. What we're doing at a very high level is nothing new. We're building infrastructure to be able to go and support doctors, help them manage their back office functions, help them over the longer term transition into retirement, specifically the ones that are selling. Where we are differentiated is in, I would say, a couple of primary ways. One is obviously our specialty focus. So we're focused on orthodontists and pediatric dentists Specifically. You have a lot of companies out there that are doing general dentistry. You have a lot of specialty DSOs out there today doing a variety of specialties and various combinations of specialties. But that would be probably the main at a very high level differentiator.
Speaker 2:And then the way that we're positioning ourselves in the market, I'd say, is there's two things that we focus on when we're chatting with doctors and as we think about building our business.
Speaker 2:One is building a DSO that is built for doctors. So this is everything from allowing doctors to continue using their existing practice management software, giving doctors full clinical autonomy which every DSO says they do not, many follow through on it, setting up equity incentives and structuring our deals in a way that promotes full alignment with the doctors. So basically tying in the doctors, bringing them along for the ride economically, clinically, and really letting them drive the and share in the success of the business which we're all obviously collectively building together. And the second bucket would be leveraging technology to drive success. We being myself and my co-founder come from Silicon Valley. We've spent time at startups building technology and looking to build and inject technology at various stages throughout the process that we are now the processes that we're looking at in orthodontics and pediatric dentistry, which we think is something that is still in its nascency in the industry in terms of how technology has been leveraged across the board.
Speaker 1:Is that something that you can get into more detail on?
Speaker 2:The technology piece, I'll be totally honest with you, is more in the realm of what my co-founder is good at. So, when it comes to the specific names of the tools that we're developing and or leveraging, I should say that's definitely more his realm, but it's everything from marketing and SEO, digital ads having really good partners and really good technology for that to automating revenue cycle management, but at every single step, automated HR. There's a lot of the different tools that we're now leveraging to help drive success through technology.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting because I heard that PDS no longer refers to themselves as a DSO. They refer to themselves as a technology company, because, when you think about it, that's the only area left for some sort of arbitrage. So we've got multiples that are extremely high, we've got doctors that are extremely expensive. It's becoming a very sophisticated game, right, like you have to really go big if you want to create some like significant returns in terms of doing a roll-up or an acquisition-based DSO. And so, really, when it comes to the fact that we have inflation and the fact that reimbursement rates are capped at whatever the insurance pays or whatever the government decides for Medicare and Medicaid, like in general, like there is a cap to what you can charge and bill, but the costs are rising, and so the only thing left is technology, is automation, is utilizing as much AI as you can, because otherwise there's just not a lot of juice left to squeeze.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would agree with that to an extent.
Speaker 2:I definitely feel like I've heard of or seen instances where you can overcorrect in that regard or maybe not deploy technology in the right way.
Speaker 2:There is still a very strong benefit to having a human touch. Parents want to hear from a human front office staff member. They want to meet with the doctor in person. There's all these new models coming out that are shifting from a fully in-center model, meaning you come in for every single visit when you get your braces on, to a hybrid model where you maybe stay at home and take pictures and I think, deployed in the right way, that's super attractive and can really free up doctors' time to increase their caseload and ultimately drive performance at the business level. But making sure that you're doing it in the right way making parents feel good, making patients feel good, making sure that quality doesn't take a hit which often it does when you're just throwing a bunch of technology at a problem so making sure that you're deploying it in the right way but I do think that you're right in that technology is going to be a big driver of success in the next five to 10 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to totally replace the human test right.
Speaker 1:Like we're still obviously a long way from that, but like just doing as much as you possibly can, like a good example is just they raised minimum wage in California and then McDonald's automates all of their ordering processes and gets so. It's like just those types of things that you have to, I feel like, constantly be on the cutting edge of in order to really grow and scale. But on that note, I'd like to talk macro. You guys sounds like you had a broad view of what you're looking to get into. So why ortho compared to other industries?
Speaker 2:Yeah, ortho is a very attractive industry. It's a very large industry, one of the we. Basically we spend a lot of time looking at different areas of healthcare. We spend a lot of time looking at different areas of specialty dental. Part of the reason that we liked orthodontics was the organic growth profile of the industry is a little bit higher, or it has been historically. That may have come down a little bit and I can get into why that is, but if you look over the past five to 10 years, ortho has grown above where general dentistry has grown and a lot of that has been driven by the proliferation of new technologies, in particular clear aligners.
Speaker 2:Invisalign is the leader in that category, but there was a massive I would almost call it like a market acceptance of this product and maybe it was technologically driven. I think Invisalign had gone through different models and had maybe finally found one that the market was willing to accept. Part of it was driven by COVID and people being on Zoom and looking at their teeth and finally seeing what they look like. They call it the Zoom effect. It's also partially driven by Gen Z TikToks. You're spending a lot more time looking at people's faces and basically all of that combined has driven a significant growth in the clear liner category over the past five to 10 years.
Speaker 2:That has tempered a little bit as the economy has softened in the last year or two and I do think that category in general is a little bit more cyclical than the core bracket and wire braces that you have most children still getting. But on a macro level, organic growth. We found to be very exciting in the industry the level of consolidation which obviously since we did our fundraise in one or two years ago, has shifted very early stages of consolidation, particularly when you look at where general dentistry is today, and so that got us very excited. There's a tremendous number of unaffiliated dentists across the US who are looking to affiliate with a DSO and I'd say there are some other factors on the macro side, but those are the two that got us very excited about working with orthodontists.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so did you guys take on private equity funding?
Speaker 2:We did so. We have a distributed cap table. It's composed of a number of institutions and individuals. I would describe it as a combination of mid-market private equity capital, search fund capital and family office capital.
Speaker 1:Okay, and do you have a mandate in terms of like certain locations per year?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't describe it as a mandate. I think as a company and as a board, we're focused on price discipline, organic growth, integration, so making sure we get those things right is, I think, more important. Obviously, we want to get deals done, we want to grow, we want to expand, we want to build a thriving, successful network of locations and doctors, but making sure we're doing it in a sustainable way to drive long-term value creation, I think, is the name of the game. There's been a number of competitors in the industry that have stumbled recently that have I would describe it as grow at all costs mentality and not focused on the organic growth and not focused on the integration, and so avoiding those pitfalls I think is really critical at this point for us. We don't have a specific mandate. We evaluate businesses as we come across them and as we reach out to them, but definitely trying to temper our growth against integration and organic growth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's smart. I think that's a smart way to do it, and so are you. In terms of regulatory constraints or whatever. How do you guys approach that?
Speaker 2:So are you in terms of like regulatory constraints or whatever? How do you guys approach that? It's a great question, I would say broadly. I would characterize the regulatory challenges that we face, or the regulatory regime in which we operate, in a couple of different ways. On the one hand, you have the corporateate Practice of Medicine, which is a federal statute that governs the way in which companies can operate with their doctor partners. So this in many ways limits the relationship. So, as an example, we can't tell a doctor how to treat a patient, and so we take that statute incredibly seriously and we've made sure to set up a very strong compliance function. There's been a couple competitors over the past 20 years who have been dinged in this regard. So, making sure that we're setting things up the right way, setting the partnerships up the right way, the lines of communication with the doctor, with the onsite staff, the compensation models, everything has to be within this regulatory framework that's been set up. That's bucket one.
Speaker 2:Bucket two is in the past couple of years there's been some changes on the regulatory front when it comes to, I'd say, a lot of. It's driven by the FTC and by local legislatures in, I would say, more left-leaning democratic states in, I would say, more left-leaning democratic states. So two examples would be one in California. You've had a law that's been passed where any healthcare transaction of any size is now subject to government approval and there's an indefinite period of time which the government has to approve that transaction, which in many ways makes it more challenging for healthcare private equity companies to operate in that state. Just in many ways makes it more challenging for healthcare private equity companies to operate in that state, just given the incremental burden and the incremental risk of doing business in that state. And you are seeing other measures put up in legislatures across other blue states that are similar. So there's some changes happening at the local level.
Speaker 2:And then at the federal level you have the FTC, headed up by Lena Kahn, pushing real step function changes to non-compete law. There was a I don't even know what to call it, but a rule that was sent out a few months ago that essentially banned the use of non-competes blanket across the US. I believe I saw an article earlier this week or maybe end of last week that a federal judge had struck down that law. So I'm not sure what the future of that provision, where that will shake out, whether it gets pared back or fully not implemented or what but? But beyond all of that and where that lands, I think we try and set up our business in a way that promotes alignment with the doctors, not through non-competes and enforcement of legal contracts, but through incentivization, equity, alignment and just making sure that we're all in this for the greater good and for the outcome that we're all trying to collectively create. Not, hey, you signed a five-year contract. You're coming to work every day because you're locked in because of your legal contract.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that's a skill that's universal, regardless of what industry you're in. I was reading this book. It's called 10X is easier than 2X and it's just a big. Seriously. The fundamental concept is like if you're gonna 2X, there's a million ways to do it and so you have decision fatigue. Everybody's competing for that same incremental growth. If you go to 10X, there's a lot less people competing in that space and it really narrows the amount of decisions or options you have, because things that'll get you 2X will not get you 10X, and so it actually makes it a little bit easier.
Speaker 1:But part of that is your team and getting them on board with the mission. You can't micromanage them, which is hard because so many people are not good players. So many people they take advantage of the system and they need somebody to micromanage them if they're going to be, if you're going to get any productivity out of them. But it's about having getting people, the right people, on board in the right seats, giving them autonomy, getting them on board and bought in with the mission and kind of letting them Like run with it. And it's what you're saying is, at the end of the day, we can have contracts, but if you're not culturally aligned, and if they're not excited about the mission, then it's just A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I think the way I like to think about it is the agreements that we put in place when we do these deals is asset acquisition, meaning we're buying the non-clinical assets of these sites, but in reality, what you're doing is you're signing a long-term partnership with the human being, with the doctor, and if the doctors aren't happy, if you aren't able to sustain a good relationship and make sure that they're feeling good about coming to work every morning and seeing patients, then you don't have a business. That is at its very core. Physician practice management is a people business. We care deeply about our doctors. We care deeply about making sure that we have full alignment with them and making sure that they feel good coming to work every day. So that's yeah, I would say. We have our central team, that we want to make sure they're on board with the mission, but even more importantly is making sure that our doctors are on board with the mission and what we're building.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's a commonly held belief in your industry that you disagree with?
Speaker 2:Looking at some of our competitors and how they have operated and built their businesses over the past five years, it would appear that a commonly held belief is the best way to get to scale and build a great business is to buy as many assets as you can as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2:I think I stated this earlier as well. I would definitely disagree with that. There's a number of DSOs out there that have tried to sell, have had challenges selling. There's a few in the market right now that are actually in the hands of lenders, and my opinion on why some of those platforms haven't done as well or have completely gone sideways is not focusing on organic growth, not focusing on the integration of the different clinics across the network, whether that's things as simple as payroll, 401k finance. All of these things need to be integrated, marketing and not creating a culture across the network that doctors can buy into. I'd say that seems to be, over the past five to 10 years, the way that people primarily, predominantly were operating, and we're excited to be building our business in a different way and, hopefully, in a more sustainable way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's like the operators versus the consolidators and the consolidators were. It was working when we had zero interest rates and everybody looked like a genius. But then the tag went out and we saw who was swimming naked and yeah, you got to focus on the fundamentals. Always is the takeaway. Some people get lucky and it's like the I'll be gone, you'll be gone mentality. A lot of people get stuck holding the bag and I think the takeaway is there is no easy answer.
Speaker 2:There is no easy answer. There is no easy button. There's usually no shortcuts. It just takes hard work and focusing on good fundamentals Absolutely, and if it takes us a couple extra years to get there, that's totally fine. I'd rather build this in a way, or focus on building a business in a way that is, you know, creating some real value over the long term for ourselves and for our doctor partners, and so we want to make sure we get it right.
Speaker 1:What do you think has been the most unexpected thing about starting a DSO?
Speaker 2:Most unexpected thing about starting a DSO? That's a good question, I would say. What's one thing that's been really interesting? This is a funny point, but there's a company in Canada that's called Dental Corp which is the largest operator of it's, the largest consolidator of dental clinics across Canada. They have a very large business. It's interesting.
Speaker 2:When we launched our platform, I spoke to them and said hey, I spoke to someone who is an executive there and I said hey, how come you guys have never gotten into specialties, specifically orthodontics? And they said it sounded like the the guy spoke to, or maybe the management team had a personal vendetta against maybe a specific orthodontist they'd met in the past. But they said oh, we just don't work with orthodontists. These guys are arrogant and they're top of their class, they're the smartest of the bunch and they're super hard to work with. And I've spent a lot of time and we actually heard that from a couple of people in the U S as well as hey, if you're going to do orthodontics, just get ready to deal with some real people that have are used to being the smartest in the room.
Speaker 2:Having come from a world, I've worked with dermatologists, I've worked with ophthalmologists, I've worked with primary care physicians, clinicians, across the spectrum. So I hope I felt like I was coming from a position of experience but still was stealing myself for. Okay, we'll see how it is navigating this environment. The biggest surprise for me has been we've actually found the industry to be an orthodontist that we've met with to be incredibly easy to work with and maybe we're just getting lucky in the folks that we're chatting with and the folks that have chosen to join up with us, but it's been very nice waking up every day and spending most of my time on the phone with orthodontists, so I feel grateful that we've picked an industry where we can get along well with our current and hopefully future partners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, you have one bad experience, then all of a sudden, the whole lot is bad. So for sure, yeah, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get a chance to talk about?
Speaker 2:No, I think we covered most of what keeps me up day to day and most of the stuff that I'm working on. Yeah, nothing comes to mind.
Speaker 1:Okay, man, that's good. I really enjoyed this talk and it's nice to see coming at it from a private equity background, but trying to do it the right way, and so if people are interested in learning more, what's a good resource for that? Reach out to us.
Speaker 2:We have a website cliffersespeciallypartnerscom. Send us an email if you want to learn more. I think we have another interview out there. We have another podcast that's coming out soon. There's a ton of really good resources out there on DSOs in general. Ton of podcasts. There's probably some books out there too. Do you have any?
Speaker 1:favorite podcasts that you recommend. Maybe related to DSO, maybe just in general, like life life?
Speaker 2:Good question. I was listening to one recently that I thought was really good. That's in the search fund industry. I'm actually I want to see if I can find it. I can't find the specific one, but I spent a lot of time in the search fund industry and there's some really sharp guys that talk a lot about business in much the same way that we think about it. There's Graham Weaver, kent Weaver unrelated, but you just some really good podcasts by those guys that I recommend people listen to.
Speaker 1:And so those are specifically about their business guys or their Small business guys their builders.
Speaker 2:I Specifically about their business guys or their small business guys, their builders. I would describe them as investors. Jim Sharp is another one. He has a really good blog where he does posts on small business building and I think where we're at now I'd put us in that bucket. Hopefully in the next couple of years we get to a scale where we're at a different level, but those podcasts and those resources have been super helpful for us.
Speaker 1:Hey, this has been awesome and yeah, thanks very much. Looking forward to connecting again soon.
Speaker 2:Sounds great. Thanks so much, Austin.
Speaker 4:If you need help finding the perfect location for your practice or you're ready to invest in commercial real estate, email us podcast at leadersreecom R-E, as in realestatecom, or go to leadersreecom and fill out our form. See you next time.