Well...Basically
Well...Basically
169:Unlocking the Paradoxes of Male Identity
Have you ever been stopped in your tracks by the complexities of gender roles and questioned what it truly means to be masculine? Unpack these pressing topics with us in a rollercoaster of an episode that travels from the safe spaces of a Tasmanian gallery to the depths of sleep paralysis nightmares. We start with a stirring conversation on the need for women-exclusive environments, spurred by a recent controversial encounter, and how these spaces collide with the pervasive issue of toxic masculinity. Then, brace yourself for a spine-tingling exchange on our personal encounters with sleep paralysis, and how these nocturnal experiences might just offer a window into our subconscious minds.
Turn the volume up as we confront modern masculinity head-on, from the seductive allure of programs that claim to mold 'real men' to the cultural impact of figures like Andrew Tate. Peek behind the curtain of the music industry's scandalous reputation through the lens of the Puff Daddy controversies, and join us in pondering a healthier version of masculinity for future generations. The episode doesn't shy away from the hard questions: Are expensive boot camps the answer to manhood, or is there a place for vulnerability and emotional strength in the male identity?
Round out the discussion with a critical look at the virtual realms where young minds are often molded. We dissect the role of online communities, such as 4chan and Reddit, in shaping the ideologies of the youth, especially teenage boys. It's a no-holds-barred examination of the digital echo chambers that can foster toxic masculinity, with a generous side of humor and personal anecdotes. So, buckle up for a ride through the challenging yet essential discourse on gender, masculinity, and the forces that shape them in today's world. Don't worry; we left the toxic masculinity at the door—but for the right price, who knows?
this is well, basically with your host, mike de silva, and sam weeks on today's episode.
Speaker 2:We talked about the gender mostly women and toxic masculinity. There's a gallery in tasmania. A guy went. It was for women, he's a d**k and then we moved on to talking about Men's only spaces. There's a place where you can pay a lot of money To go and be treated like d**k To become a real man, if you like the sound of that and you want to find out more. Stay tuned. We hope you enjoy today's episode. This is Well, basically more. Stay tuned, we hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Speaker 2:This is well basically I'm talking so much before the show, please repent peasant such good chat as well, and I'll remember none of it, of course. Please stop talking before the show we're not going to have anything to talk about. And then people will stop listening. We should never speak to each other.
Speaker 3:Do you know what? We run a risk every I do a PT session with Sam just before the show, every time, and I'm always coming into the PT session.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can't talk. It's very meditative. Yeah, yeah, Really, he just points at machinery. I gesture yeah.
Speaker 3:But I come into the workout like, oh, I'm so excited to talk about this on the show and this on the show. I've got all this energy. And then I finish the workout and I just spent the last hour just lying on the couch being like my brain is turning off.
Speaker 1:My body is turning off. Oh yeah, See, my brain does the opposite.
Speaker 3:Oh, you get energized after a workout.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the only time. Really time really otherwise I'm like branded. I'm ready to sleep usually I mean, I love sleeping all the time for a long time.
Speaker 2:At that point, like after the workout, I'm like, oh yeah, I've done, I've done a day's work yeah, this is like my reward at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had an eight minute nap before I came for a workout did you think it showed?
Speaker 2:how do you know you didn't sleep for that long?
Speaker 3:yeah, well, I put my head down for for minutes. I probably slept for like three.
Speaker 2:You actually fell asleep, did you feel weird? When you woke up, were you like, oh, I can't, that's dangerous.
Speaker 3:But you don't go so far in that you have to worry about like the REM or anything. You're just kind of unconscious for a second.
Speaker 2:It's usually me asking. Seriously every time I nap, I get them, so it's like always. If I don't sleep for longer than an hour, it's guaranteed sleep paralysis.
Speaker 3:Do you have a common demon?
Speaker 2:Nah.
Speaker 3:Nah, I don't, it's always different.
Speaker 2:Anything. Usually it's just a person walking weirdly in the room. Who?
Speaker 3:I don't know. Is it a recognisable person or just like a shadow?
Speaker 2:Nah, usually their face is like all blurry or there's something going on. That's really bizarre Any aliens? Well, it explains to me, like the number of times I've had the sleep paralysis is indicative, like tells me that aliens and ghosts can all be explained because it's always something at the end of the bed and there's always a motherfucker at the end of the bed, and there's always a motherfucker at the end of the bed. There's always a motherfucker at the end of bed in my sleep paralysis.
Speaker 1:There are aliens finger in pies, all about the place. Yeah, I know, not just at the end of the bed.
Speaker 2:I will let you know if I get sodomized by an alien and run to my sleep paralysis.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying there's some little guys out there fingering pies, that's what.
Speaker 3:I think. I think it is aliens visiting you, but only you. For some reason, I've never had a sleep paralysis.
Speaker 2:I'm an interesting person. What can I say I had?
Speaker 1:heaps. That involved a UFO outside my door, but nothing.
Speaker 2:Really no aliens in my room, the worst one. I'm sure I've told this story before, I don't know, I forget.
Speaker 3:Tell it again whatever.
Speaker 2:The worst one I've ever had was like I was quite young, I think, and there was a guy just like marching at the end of the bed, but it was dark in my room so it was just a shadow and I was like like I'd had a few of these at this point and I was like Twirling, a baton marching or army marching?
Speaker 2:No, just like swinging his arms excessively and like turning on the spot really fast. And like turning on spot really fast, like, and like just looking really bizarre, like it was scary, like you know this shit when you watch like a frightening movie and the stuff moves in a weird way.
Speaker 3:It was like doing that. Oh yeah, like the girl on the right yeah, sort of like that.
Speaker 2:And he's marching back and forth and I was like I tried to call out to him to like tell him fuck off whatever, and he just stopped and turned and then he like jumped and he literally just floated over my head and it was just his eyes over my eyes and just staring at me and I was like I really want to wake up now. We really like to wake up right this second.
Speaker 1:That would make me not want to go to sleep. I would have lost it by now.
Speaker 2:I get them all the time. It's fine, I know what they are.
Speaker 3:When you dream, can you guys talk in your dreams? I when you dream can you guys talk in your dreams? I talk, yeah, I do no, but not physically like your body as well as in like in your dreams. Can you talk with other people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do both. Wow. Usually when I talk, though, it's like vocalized externally in the real world.
Speaker 3:Chloe hates it. I can't All my dreams. When I go to talk, it comes out as oh, really, yeah, it's really frustrating.
Speaker 2:Really stressful. I told someone to go fuck themselves in my dream the other night.
Speaker 1:And Chloe was like why did you tell?
Speaker 2:me to go fuck myself. Sorry, it's the dream, someone was being a real dick. I never remember what happens in my dreams, but I remember the last moment before I wake up and that was the last moment and I remember someone was being a real jerk you should dream journal? I should, but I still I feel like it's gone. But like when I wake up it's usually the middle of the night and I'm like I'm not going to get set up and write a journal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's probably fair.
Speaker 2:I don't think um Chloe would appreciate it either. I'm just turning the light on, do you mind?
Speaker 3:Excuse me, I'm just going to get out my mechanical keyboard and type this out.
Speaker 1:I actually couldn't.
Speaker 2:I'm going to journal and get out my astrology cards I couldn't even answer as to why. She's like why are you doing that? I'm like Andrew told me to do it.
Speaker 3:Apparently it can help you lucid dream better. When I was young I wanted to lucid dream and I never was able to like activity to try I've, just like in a dream, just suddenly been aware that I was dreaming and I was like oh, I can fly yeah I've done that a few times.
Speaker 1:It's pretty sick doesn't do what you want when you, when you dream yeah, like you're, you're conscious of dreaming no, I never have that they're gonna release something that'll let you do that all the time.
Speaker 2:Anyway, it's a neural link yeah, there you go dream good old evil.
Speaker 3:And then you'll get a boy electro shock to death in your yeah, they're starting human trials on that now. Vibe, I'm I'm probably not even going to be like like beyond the human trial when you pay for it and they're like it's actually safe now I'm not even going to do that Like for the, for the what. The neural link, the like. I don't know even what it is.
Speaker 2:It's Talk about a bunch of people who will be first adopters today aren't we those people who love Eon? He's so cool oh my God, he's so smart, he's come up with so much.
Speaker 1:I mean we're semi-merged with phones anyway. It's not going to be that much of a stretch.
Speaker 3:I want it in my arm, I think as far as I go, you know, like arm and hand, that kind of stuff. I don't know if I want it in my brain.
Speaker 1:It depends. Can it help me focus? Yeah, that's what it is. It just turns you into a robot. Can it just switch me on?
Speaker 3:It's like when people say oh, you know, people always talk about being possessed by a demon and how it's so awful, but wouldn't it be so nice to give control of this mess to someone else?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what could go wrong?
Speaker 3:Yeah, like honestly, they're going to run my life really well and become powerful.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, like the Terminator is not going to happen, right, surely, what do you mean? Alright, elon.
Speaker 2:Well, you know. It was a very ominous voice. Is this song good, or is it just relevant?
Speaker 1:It's good. It's a combination.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a good song I love this song.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, let's do it.
Speaker 1:Can we rate it out of five oh?
Speaker 2:yeah, perfect, mark them, mark them, mark them. Episode number 168 or 69?
Speaker 1:Sexy, hey, I can't remember, I don't think 69 is a very sexy at all, really, wow. I don't think 69's are very sexy at all really wow, I love it.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of logistics involved it's not that much, it's just, you talk upside down you might not even have to.
Speaker 1:Sometimes you just get to lie about it.
Speaker 2:I am here, mikey is here, andrew is here, and we're here to talk about some stuff and things some of it fitness related, some of it not, and I think that's how we like it and hopefully it's how you like it too. Shout out to first time listeners, second time listeners, third, fourth, fifth, and you guys who listen every week, we love you the most, it's true, oh yeah. I was like when is it going to say what it says?
Speaker 3:It's the only line.
Speaker 2:Is that all it does? Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about you and me. No, let's talk about gender, baby.
Speaker 3:Because that's what we're going to do today, but probably one gender in particular, because it's the one we can speak to, the problematic one the problem the worst one women, the gender agenda um, yeah, I uh there's a funny well, it's not funny, it's very sad, I'm sure, for a lot of people story that's been going on for a couple months, where this guy, um jason lau, was refused entry to a ladies lounge in mona, so they had like an exclusive art space for women only in mona. And jason lau said, oh, I bought a ticket for it and I was rejected at the door so they refused service to me because I'm a man and it's discrimination. So he went to the tasmanian anti-discrimination ombudsman, who then referred it on to the tribunal and the tribunal this week came back and said yes, jason was discriminated against you should be in that lounge, jason well you should be lounging it up it's at first glance, because he the
Speaker 3:point he made was like there's some beautiful pieces of art in there that I don't have access to, and I also got a ticket fair and square and I don't have access to it.
Speaker 2:How was he allowed to buy a ticket? Did he fake his name?
Speaker 3:No, no. So when I first saw this, this story's been going on for ages. Hold on, how did he even buy a ticket? Well, the ticket you buy online, right, and so you don't have to take a pic of your vagina to get the ticket and send it over to them.
Speaker 2:If he's seen that that is where the gallery is and what the event is called, he's fucking doing it on purpose.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, so, okay. So this story's been going on for ages and when it first came out I was like, oh, I wonder what this lady lounge is. How is it advertised? Is this guy an idiot? And you go on and it is obviously ladies lounge. There's huge signs on the website being like this is for women only. But also what I realized, this is like it was like a 200 or $250 per person, like morning tea Basically. You got given like finger sandwiches while you sat in this. It's the tiniest room.
Speaker 1:You can get finger sandwiches anywhere. You can get finger sandwiched anywhere, if you, you can get finger sandwiched anywhere, if you want to.
Speaker 3:It's like the size of a public bathroom with curtains around it. It's like three cubicles and then an area for taps In. Tasmania, we're not talking like… yeah, they don't have a lot of room already there.
Speaker 1:The ladies' lounge has not taken up a huge amount of public space. It's just like four curtains around an area in Mona.
Speaker 3:And on the website when you go to buy the ticket. First of all, that's a crazy price to spend on like five pieces of art and some finger food, but also it's so obvious on the website that it is a ladies lounge and it's like women only in the space, and so he would have gone on that website being like I am going to start a revolution.
Speaker 1:I'm going to get you ladies.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's wrong for you to exclude me from this space. I'm forcing my way in and he literally has what?
Speaker 1:men have been doing for years.
Speaker 2:Well, okay. So who wants to talk about all the problems with this? First, I'm just trying to see what this fucking asshole looks like.
Speaker 1:But I can't see. It seems like a lot of effort.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. Okay, we have lounges everywhere. Okay, as men, as a straight white podcast, we have places everywhere where we dominate everything, and they're about almost every woman, or a lot of women, feel extremely uncomfortable due to us in those scenarios. So for them to have a place where we're not allowed, it's fucking awesome and I think we should respect that.
Speaker 1:yeah, like in a very in a small small way, like, like, surely you would just look at this and go oh, maybe I'll catch those artwork pieces somewhere else and pop down the local bakery and get a sandwich at another time, just like I just go into the like I don't know what your guys thoughts are on this, but I mean, like I've had many conversations with Chloe on because she's worked in an industry that's heavily male dominated, effectively her entire life and the stuff that seems normal to us.
Speaker 2:when I am, when I'm seeing something, and like she kind of goes, a lot of women in these scenarios where they're surrounded by men are just dealing with us and the way they treat women naturally and it's like completely normalized behavior so for them to have a space where to go see art, for example, where they don't have to experience that and, like a lot of people, men would not even realize that the way they're talking to a woman is any different or wrong, but naturally it's what men do because it's the way of the fucking world yeah, and this guy thinks that he owns this space as well, and therefore he's wanting to go and make a point about it because he's got all of the time and energy this is a I say a discourse as old as time itself, when they've started making like pride or like um queer spaces on what about straight pride all?
Speaker 3:the straight people would be like oh, I pay my fees to the university too, why can't I also use this space? Um, uh, and it's like really difficult for for guys to understand. You know, it's like when I was living in london I would walk, and in sydney as well I walk these like long distances at night home, with no fear. No worry, I'm not going to be like beat up. Women just can't do that. You go to a club, you watch women at a club. They are so much more careful of where their drink is at every second, where their friends drink are at every second, who they're bumping into or near on the dance floor, which is a fear that I will tell you, straight guys and gay guys don't have when they go out to these spaces. So cordoning off spaces for for the non-dominant of any minority group I mean women aren't a minority in the number sense, but like any power minority group is, I think, completely fine. What I don't like about this is that they've cordoned off a space for 200 bucks a person. That's cool.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of money.
Speaker 3:That is a huge amount that's so exclusionary.
Speaker 2:A rich women's space. Yeah, that's the companies, the companies you know.
Speaker 3:We talked about that last week.
Speaker 2:They're trying to profit.
Speaker 3:It's a classic art space thing. Yeah, like, look at this beautiful art. Give us all this cash.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3:Ghost is getting us.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, Andrew's from that plate's next. Watch out, pass it to me.
Speaker 3:Okay, we're all good, yeah. So I mean, I thought the story is quite funny because of the further that Jason Lau would have gone to to make this? Story, and successfully, sadly successfully. But if we're going to talk about women's only spaces, maybe we should talk about men's only spaces as well. So there is a group called the modern day night project. They came up on my tiktok. I think both of you have seen their website, right?
Speaker 1:so they have a coat of arms? Yeah, they do. They have a little x's, it's all. Yeah, it's all that.
Speaker 3:So they describe themselves as um. The project is a personal growth and business development program for men that utilizes physical activity as well as education, lessons and journaling to help you experience massive growth in your leadership, mindset, business faith, fitness, family and personal drive.
Speaker 2:Oh, I missed the faith part. I didn't realize it was also a Jesus thing. That's where you've gone wrong in your life. Well, I don't think it's necessarily Jesus.
Speaker 3:I think it's just a.
Speaker 1:It's like in it is american, it would have to be jesus. Could you imagine going there with someone else other than?
Speaker 3:jesus. So so I was in scouts and one of the things that came up because we had a um, an atheist scout leader. But when you become a leader, you have to invest yourself with scouts, and one of the things they say is you need to invest yourself. In the eyes of our god, it can, it can be anything, and I think when he did it he did he brought like a lamp from home and he was like this this is my god as like a protest against it, but that's pretty good, I would say they would go into this, it's a christian faith, but I would say they go into this and be like whatever your faith.
Speaker 3:Your faith is an important part of like okay um, but basically it's a three day, it's for three days, three days only. They get treated like, uh, they're entering the us military. You know the, the boot camp, where they treat you like shit. They can do that for free, do?
Speaker 1:they know that. Yeah, you just enroll in the military mikey, do you know how much they're?
Speaker 3:paying for the privilege of being yelled at by seven of the most ugly fucking men you've ever seen 18 000 american dollars 18,000.
Speaker 1:I will treat people like shit for 18,000 since they also say it's 75 hours in total.
Speaker 3:This includes time in the field they're doing it at like a community centre, of course, but time in the field, time seated, learning, eating and sleeping, and then they put in there in brackets.
Speaker 1:Sleeping will be kept to a minimum yeah, because you're not a real man unless you're deprived of sleep.
Speaker 3:Yes, in the war zone boot camp style thing that's supposed to be for like high echelon business people. But they mention in here that you need to have no fitness prerequisites and no like you don't need to be like a c-suite to to get on this. It's for anyone. They're just like fleecing these people for money and then just like whipping them for three days. It's pretty it's pretty.
Speaker 2:I mean, like I'll in the podcast description, I'll link the website because it's very entertaining to watch the. Did you watch the opening video? My gosh, it's basically a guy giving a lecture, telling them what they're doing, and it does like fast cuts to just men experiencing hell. There's one of like a bunch of them like huddling together in the ocean. Them being screamed at them with guns. The guns, just like came at the last minute. I was like why do they have guns?
Speaker 3:I know, if I have a manager, I want them to be gun trained. I mean they have to be sure what else was there?
Speaker 2:There was so much good stuff. There was wives testimonials about how their husbands came back as like, more powerful lovers, and like they were more in charge in the family and they're so glad they could take their hands off the wheel for these men to be able to take leadership. It's just a fast cut to them, like choking each other out for no apparent reason. I was like this is absurd.
Speaker 3:That's what masculinity is.
Speaker 2:It was like the production value was very, very high. It was all in black and white, very, very dramatic. They must be selling people on this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're fully booked out. They are fully fully booked out for like a year. They've got it must be a dozen or so of these of 35 cap courses that they've fully booked. People are hungry to be massacred. They want to be beat up.
Speaker 2:I think we need to. You know, I think it was about two years ago I did all that research on different like group fitness classes that were around Sydney. We need to see one of us there. Yeah, I think it's going to have to be one of you. We'll emerge.
Speaker 1:Hello.
Speaker 3:I'll just say I don't want to do that. I'm not getting on the monkey bars, I'm not getting in the mud, mate.
Speaker 1:I think we could put $18,000 to better use.
Speaker 3:But the further the people have picked this up, it really screams like what is male training now? Like what is a man's only space? You know it's really difficult to define without coming up with. This is like a pantomime of masculinity, but this is what men's spaces often are sold at online. I think men's spaces there's a lot of good movements going on for, like softness and sensitivity and understanding, because I think that's a big training point that we're trying to bring the two genders in parody, which means like culturally bringing them together. But then you see places like this where they're like to be a man.
Speaker 2:You, you have to eat shit, honestly you have to be dragged through the mud by a.
Speaker 3:Jeep, and if you aren't bleeding and crying by the end of this, but it's gotta be man tears.
Speaker 2:I don't want to say crying for any emotional reason.
Speaker 3:It's crying because you're in agony, Then we've wasted our time here. It's like in what?
Speaker 2:world. This is actually like a sentiment that I've seen repeated sort of all over Instagram and we talked about a little while ago, where fitness trainers in in particular, believe that you facing hardship in the gym is going to prepare you for life, and it's like are you fucking joking? Like just like I get it Like working hard in the gym is good. It like trains you to have you know some. I wouldn't even know how to.
Speaker 3:It's like commitment, it's like commitment.
Speaker 2:It gives you commitment to something.
Speaker 1:It gives you resilience and like determination in a very specific way. It's a specific avenue, right.
Speaker 2:It's like. The classic example is when I first started training people for their specific sports, the literature wasn't necessarily up to date as it is now, and you have these people doing all these alternate exercises that are sort of kind of related to the sport that they're playing, but not so much. And now literally all the training for fitness, like athletes, is so specific to every single movement that they're doing now.
Speaker 2:And even like they've. They've kind of gone to show that like the best way to get better at your sport is to play the sport more than anything else. So I like to use that as an example, because like doing heavy weights in the gym until you feel like absolute shit is not going to mean you're going to overcome depression in a month it doesn't translate like that.
Speaker 3:No, I think fitness uh is a really key part of overcoming yeah, absolutely, but like it's not going to prepare you.
Speaker 2:This is what, how it's sold. It's like they're gonna you're gonna overcome adversity because you have done so in the gym and you challenge yourself. Oh yeah, going to the gym isn't going to make you like a better employee.
Speaker 3:You're not going to like succeed in your career. You know I'm not going to do a better office job because I've got the mindset of a gym exactly right you.
Speaker 1:You might like I use it as a. It helps me focus so it's a helpful tool in the arsenal but, it doesn't like yeah, it's not gonna cure my ptsd if I was to have that or something like. It's just, you need other tools for mental health.
Speaker 2:It's a lot, it's a lot more nuanced than like a lot of people, like what people who are trying to sell you something will make it out to be. It's like you struggle in, you won't struggle out there, it'll be easy. It's like what the fuck are you talking about? How many brain cells do you have?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's the whole push of this. It's like if we give you the most difficult possible time for three days, then when you come up against adversity outside of here you'll be set.
Speaker 2:But you find out that, oh um, one of your employees has been stealing from the till and also they, you know, were harassed by another employee. You choke them out, it's like confusing situation.
Speaker 3:What you're not gonna run them through tough mudder. You know it's not. There's. There's no parallel here. The two lines do not.
Speaker 1:Well, there is a parallel, they don't cross maybe a good way to put it is like it can. It can be like a healthy and and productive and social way of escapism, like to get away from as long as you're not trying to outrun it, and that's the only thing. Yeah, that's the other thing, like avoidance Like this is.
Speaker 2:This is something I another thing we've talked about is where, like, people actually use hardship in the gym or like train themselves really hard to distract them from the shit that's actually going on in their lives, and I think that's another way that you can use it to really negative effect, and I have done that personally, covid, I fucked myself up through like eating like a crazy person and exercising like a crazy person.
Speaker 3:so, um, this also touches on, I think, a larger issue that we're seeing and there's a lot of stories about this now of like young boys in schools basically harassing female teachers, that young teenage boys are seeing these terrible role models on YouTube. What's that guy's name? Andrew Tate. Andrew Tate is like the classic example I've been fed so much.
Speaker 1:You've been following him for years. Yeah, he's a huge fan. You're the man you are now it's part of my.
Speaker 2:I get him on my feed all the time.
Speaker 1:I really really do Well, so yeah, I also do bizarrely. Yeah, it is weird.
Speaker 3:The Wall Street Journal did a really good story called I think it's Rabbit Hole. It's like a three or four part podcast. You don't have to listen to the whole thing, but the idea is the YouTube algorithm is really good at grabbing you with non-offensive little things that then bend into incredibly offensive right-wing things. And it's not because YouTube is like an evil right-wing corporation it might be, but it's likely not that. It's just that that's the kind of stuff that sells to the highest YouTube-consuming population. You know, if you're going to watch 70 hours of YouTube in a week, there's some screws loose. No offense to anyone that listens to 75 hours of YouTube. So, andrew, take us a lot of cause. He's made it. This is in the. This guy called Hunter Johnson went on RN breakfast this week and we might put a link to that.
Speaker 3:I imagine I'm going to put all the sources and in the description but he talked about how cause Andrew Tate produces it's like hundreds and hundreds of hours of content. Not everything he says is going to be like a horribly offensive thing. Some of us is going to speak to, like the male spirit. They're going to talk to a group of people who, um, for right or for wrong, I've kind of lost their identity in the world. You know, the world is becoming a more accepting and less masculinized place for the good.
Speaker 3:That's a that's a great, great step, but, um, it means that this identity, this, this like this base ground identity that guys could turn to of a masculine leader, is becoming less and less something they can turn to.
Speaker 3:And so, um, when they go see andrew tate talk a little bit about, like, reclaiming your spirit or whatever it does resonate with them, but then they watch more and more of his stuff and he starts talking about how women are basically there to please you and how you should be doing everything you can to like shun them off and treat them like shit. Um, that people start to warp and bend their view and it's like bleeding into all these kids now in high school because they haven't got this, this positive male role model that they can be looking at. Um. Hunter johnson runs this group called the man cave which works in australia, and they basically go to schools and try to like break this pattern in young boys and teach them how to be more accepting men but while embracing their masculinity, but yeah it's like I didn't mean to say the c word popped.
Speaker 2:Taboo what is like I don't know how you guys would define what masculinity is, but what the hell is it?
Speaker 3:I don't know what positive masculinity is. This is why it's such a tough question. Yeah, because it has really like the traditional masculinity is like a leader. They're strong, they are, you know, subjugate those around them. It's a real like dog eat dog world.
Speaker 2:Subjugate those around them. It's crazy, that's. Is that how you define masculinity? That's traditional masculinity. Yeah, it's like becoming the king.
Speaker 3:you know, like you're always scrabbling If. If you're not winning, you're losing. Is the idea Modern masculinity? I don't know, I don't know protector, but even that has like overtones of like, like controlling people. Yeah what?
Speaker 1:do you guys think masculinity is healthy masculinity? Oh fuck, if I know. But uh, yeah, I mean some of it comes from like sexual dimorphism, right, but that's not placing the value on sexual dimorphism. Well, in like the animal world, not to be a caveman about it but there's like differences between. There's quite a pronounced difference between like a, you know, like a silverback gorilla, oh yeah, so there are differences on that level. But then what happens is, I guess it gets ascribed to value and then really in humans that dimorphism is not as pronounced.
Speaker 2:But I just went down a whole anthropology hole there, which probably needed a bit more explanation that's good um, there's a, but there's a spider in, uh I think it's a thing which is probably a south american spider that, like its job is to like dance and wear bright colors. This is the the male to please the female, and if she hates his dance, she fucking eats him.
Speaker 1:Bring that back. That's healthy masculinity. Also in nature it goes the other way, like there's species where, like, the female is the bigger one and the stronger one. So yeah, I think people are very selective on where they kind of draw their ideas of that from, because they like to harp on back to, you know, caveman days.
Speaker 3:Well, they like to harp on to primates. I think is a prime example, and if you look at pretty much every primate, the guys are a lot stronger.
Speaker 1:Even humans guys are. Yeah, they're just not paying attention to.
Speaker 2:Beautiful muscles and we love them for it. Yeah, it's an interesting one. Like I think the whole Andrew Tate thing is really really bizarre and like in that interview he talks about how many people are actually listening to that stuff. He's been accused of a whole bunch of awful shit.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, he's on trial now, isn't?
Speaker 2:he yeah, it's like rape and sex trafficking. Sex trafficking.
Speaker 3:Much like Puff Daddy. He did it yes.
Speaker 2:But Daddy's also in a lot of trouble, yeah.
Speaker 1:Was he ever any good side note?
Speaker 2:Well, he brought up a lot of artists. I'm fascinated by this because, like, if you go back in time, the black community knew that something was going on with him for so long that like it was always like a bit of a joke, and now it's like definitely not a joke.
Speaker 3:But that's like all showbiz. You know, like Harvey Weinstein, there was decades of jokes of him being a sex pest for ages, up until they came out, and then all the people that make jokes were like, oh, he's so terrible, it's like you you were laughing along.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all it takes is like it's so funny because all it takes is rookie gervais to host an award show.
Speaker 2:I was listening to a thing I can't remember. It was like a one. I think it was either boys to men or I'm sorry if it's not boys to men, but it was one of those sort of like um r&b singing groups and peter dee's just picked them up and he was um. He literally showed them a video of him and be abusing a woman and because he was about to put their album out, they kept their mouths shut and this is in like 92.
Speaker 1:So like it's going way back.
Speaker 2:If they had said something, all of the shit wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 1:It's wild. I bet he got two part killed.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, wouldn't have happened. It's wild. I bet he got two-part killed. Oh yeah, 100%, 100%.
Speaker 1:Well, we've really, we've really gone on. We have, we have.
Speaker 3:That's cooked Well. Glad that the light's been shone on him. Sad that it took 30 years to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's a tough ask. I mean, it's good that there's groups that are targeting young men. I think that's another thing. Is that, um, the discourse around this has basically been like they should just be better, you know. But really, teenage boys, they need help not being assholes. When I was a kid, I um uh, I rarely bent. You were an asshole. No, I like nearly bent along the edge of um going to like the 4chan like basement dweller. I hung out with a group of people that were very, very much that anonymous yeah, kind of, but not anonymous, that's like skilled people.
Speaker 3:I think, um, what I was, just like this oh, women, you know, get the best of the world and whatever and I really bent out of it. I think partly I bent out of it because I was gay, um, because that really does open your mind, but otherwise that, might have helped. Yeah, the g um, I got really close to falling into that rabbit hole and I did not, which bless but Was that just 4chan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a lot of 4chan 4chan's really bad for World Wars and Reddit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're just like not good places for anyone that's like trying to be a good person and develop into like a fully-fledged human.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really a sort of a place where where someone who isn't developed and maybe a bit shy or um, can go and communicate with others who are very, very like-minded, um, and get on that wavelength. For you, the Andrew Shate, things are super, super interesting.
Speaker 3:Anyway, if you're a teenage boy listening, uh, good luck to you.
Speaker 2:It is a rough world and uh world and uh, hopefully you don't turn out like a piece of shit. Great close. Thank you so much for listening to. Well, basically, if you want to find andrew, you can find him at the beer back. Investor. You want to find mikey, you can find him at. Well, basically, mikey, if you want to find me, you can find me at. Well, basically, stand. The website for the podcast is wwwwellbasicallypodcom. There is no toxic masculinity on our website, not yet.
Speaker 1:Just the color green, but for $18,000, I can provide you some, maybe less.
Speaker 2:I want to see you try.
Speaker 3:I think, that'd be great. Oh yeah, you PT'd me once. You really did put the boot in.
Speaker 2:Well, basically that's it.